bigfish: How Challenger brands can survive the “Doom Loop” to become a loved household brand - Perry Haydn Taylor

1:03:24I hate if I just called him the geezer dies. But I think brand is so important. And I think it's the guy from Bowdoin, right? I read somewhere on Bowdoin, he said, brand is a moat that starves off competition, which I love. I think I've read... Is that Julian or Johnny? I don't know, but I've read it. Brand is the moat that stays off competition. Yeah, brand is a moat. and then what i believe is i think tone of voice yeah is is a 10 foot brick wall with sniper rifles a lot of people can try and copy your brand and i've that's happened to us before before in previous businesses but if you've got this strong tone of voice and and brand you're kind of impenetrable um people can leave you as you're not as a founder you're still going to attract talent if the brand's great anyway i've asked this question to lots of guests in fact all guests now I just haven't asked it to you.

1:04:17What in one sentence is a brand? That's very simple. A brand is simply a set of associations that consumers make in their mind. I'll say it again. Because I didn't say it very succinctly. It's very simple because a brand is literally just a set of associations in their head in a consumer's mind relating to the name or the title of your product it is nothing more than a an imaginary set of associations um and that's why it's so strong because it talks to a part of your brain well i haven't done it in one sentence well that's the the whole point of that no one does it in a sentence so well But for me, a brand is simply a set of associations in people's minds about your product or service.

1:05:17And so I looked on your website and I'd love to. We've got so many brands around the room. Tyrells, Callow, Belle, Belvoir, butchering the names, Goo, Yo Valley. And maybe we can use one of these as an example. But I'd love to dive deep into how to actually create these associations. Because I think there's a huge difference between building a brand and building sales of a food product. um i saw on your website you've got this uh like can you summarize your brand in eight words so some of the oh the eight and eight eight and eight yeah so you've got because some of our you're gonna ask me to do that for us are you now no no no no no no no no so so some of our founders who are listening to this maybe they've got really great product they just don't have a brand or there may be uh founders who are halfway down the line but they need to make it more succinct so that people up and down the country understand the brand not just london but some of the examples you've got here and just kind of um i'd tee up for our listeners so year valley that valley put nature first whole earth let's make the earth whole again i mean this is i'm i'm not measure basing i'm masturbating everything's quite naturally yeah yeah yeah you don't make yourself a coffee mate the river for organic farms live live life on the veg um clip a natural fair it's just so delicious but but these words are the associations that kind of infiltrate your mind imagine you're a brand what are this the first one to two three things they can do to begin to to create a brand and or tone of voice to make them anti-fragile yeah well look um yes very kind of you to say that um so um we we created the eight and eight relatively recently actually because for for precisely this reason that um the world changes so in our own world of challenging conventional wisdom of how we do things um every brand today needs to be able to say, in eight seconds, which is that we have a theory about what its proposition is in a way that isn't really fucking dull.

1:07:29It's compelling. So to create that association in any consumer's mind with your product, your service, the first thing is you've got to get their attention. And then you've got to get their interest. And then you've got to get their desire. And then you've got to get them to act. And that's actually an old-fashioned an old-fashioned 50s advertising framework called ADA, apparently. Attention, interest is our action. Because it's all very well having brand awareness, but if no one buys your products, ultimately you're just spending money on making yourself famous and, you know, big deal. No one's going to actually do anything.

1:08:07So the idea behind the eight seconds is that if you look at the average number of words that people can read per second, I think it's time around two, I can't remember. But you've probably got, you know, one second to get someone's attention, maybe one or two seconds to get someone's attention. You've probably got three or maybe four seconds to actually get them to understand what it is that you're trying to sell. And then you've got about a second for them to probably decide yes or no, and then you've got a second for them to actually act and do something like, you know, press a button, pick something off a shelf.

1:08:39So hence this eight and eight. I've probably got the wrong numbers there. but um so it's an eight it's it's basically what are your eight word proposition you can say in eight seconds and also have an eight point plan to deliver so if any brand is out there like you know brand owner or someone who wants to create a brand rather than to sell something anonymously because what's the opposite of a brand is oh here have some flour you know here have this watch who made it you know who made it doesn't matter it's a watch it works you know that's not already a brown and that's just a watch um you know but here have this uh philip attack or you know who made it well come to call philip to heck well you know what's so good about it well it's inheritance it's inheritance it's inheritance quality you know and by the way you're just looking after it for the next generation i know that's a ridiculously old and but it still it stands the test of time so people's association with with whether it's engineering or whether it's you know sustainable food has to come from you explaining very succinctly, unlike I am doing now, what it is that you're selling, why you should buy it, and also why it's so preferential emotionally and, you know, inspirationally to buy that particular type of product that you're selling from the person who's selling it versus an anonymous or another brand so um the best thing you can do and i just sound like such a sort of old boring fart here is to sit down for the very first you know time that you decide i'm going to go out there and try and sell something and answer our five questions which is the first thing is why does the world need this you know literally what's wrong that i'm making right you know for example you know our big question these days is what's bad that needs to be replaced with good and i don't just mean from a sustainability point of view or an ethical point i mean actually like yeah what's crap that should be better um so displacing bad with good is an interesting one but the first question you need to ask yourself is why you know why do i exist why does this business exist the second question you need to ask is who's this for you know who's this targeting and why are these people going to buy this the third question is what what is it you as a brand one that you those people to think feel say and do you know and actually think feel and say are quite fundamentally different things thinking about something is not really what consumers do unless they're buying you know a car or a central heating system.

1:11:27They're probably going to be really rational about that, buying internet. They don't tend to think that much about what they're going to order at the bar. That's an impulsive thing. So thinking and feeling is a really key thing about a brand. It's what do you want them to think? What do you want them to feel? And then really key thing is how does your idea spread? How does your brand spread? It spreads because people bother to say something about it. Or whether it's on this or whether it's to their friends. You know, are they going to actually bother to give you the time of day to speak about it?

1:11:58And then really the bit that everyone forgets is, what do you actually want them to do? So in that second question, what do you want them to think, feel, say and do, you basically have a strategy and some tactics. And then the fourth question is, okay, well, once you've established that, is how are you going to make them think, feel, say and do those things? Have you got any money? are you going to bribe them with price you know the fragile stuff that you talked about or are you going to use some really robust clever stuff that defies logic which is why it's going to be so difficult for the competitors so for example you mentioned ed and jamie on uh kind of kitten i mean that was clever wasn't it i remember these guys created a brand before they even had a product they each side where you're sitting and the jamie's dad bought them in and said look these guys have got this great brand i said well can i chase the sweets he went well we've got any yeah but we ton later promotion because we've been on made in chelsea bloody famous wow that's literally the opposite of what only happens it's crazy so you know how are you going to think make make them think feel and say and do those things is is is great fun i mean that's that's the subtactical stuff and then the fourth question is well how do you know when it's working what do you measure success in so what does success look like so the five questions to recap is you know why this business?

1:13:16Who are you targeting? What do you want those people to think, feel, say and do? How are you going to make them think, feel, say and do those things? And what does success look like? And if your people listening to this can answer those five questions, they certainly don't need me. But that's basically what I've been flogging for the last 28 years. And the reason we're still asking those same questions is that they're pretty good questions. And the real skill is actually answering those questions with objectivity, with naive intelligence. and with people in the room who can happily listen to people thinking out loud and contribute.

1:13:52Because if you think out loud, which is a lot of people don't do, people then can help you. If you don't think out loud, if you're squirreling away and making your plans on your own and no one's able to understand what's in your head, as you mentioned earlier, your team don't know what you're thinking. so it's really important to think out loud in the company of others who are listening and that's where great facilitation comes in if you're a brand owner even if you've got 50 quid and you want to start you know paypal the most important thing is to go out there and ask strangers questions about what they think about your product you know and and don't get all you know clever about just speak to strangers talk to people a lot i love this so that so those questions I knew you'd be able to link this into the anti-fragile but asking those questions you've been here, done that, got the t-shirt and it was a way that all these brands have gone through those questions so that's a super anti-fragile I love that and actually I think it's when you said what do we want them to feel think, say and do and one of I think the issues with some challenger brands is that they go into places where it's harder to make people feel think say and do i.e you're going to sell more um rice cakes in chelsea where we are than in like the top end of darlington but just to be out of that but it's like how do you how do our listeners go from a brand that's big in london which most of most people listening to this i could actually know most people are london okay they may get you know 400 Waitrose stores.

1:15:38Well, there's not even 400, so that's stupid. But there's a value. You know your stuff, yeah. But they could get, you know, 400... Limited distribution. Limited distribution. So how, as the brand goes from being a baby and a nascent brand to more kind of adolescent, do they get people to feel, say, and think? Think, feel, say, and do. Yeah, think, feel, say, and do. How do they get people to do? Yeah, but as they get bigger, because it's all well and good building a brand that's going to sell loads in Whole Foods and Planet Organic and Selfridges. But every brand has to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

1:16:13And it's harder to make people feel, think, say and do as you get bigger. Yeah, 100 % it is. So that's where you end up with the, what we call the sort of brand. I'd be careful about saying this, I suppose. I mean, I call it the brand doom loop. Lovely. but I've kind of over the years explained to people because we work with people at very different stages so you know someone who comes in who's literally got nothing and they've not even got an idea and again I'm thinking there's a problem with the category someone the other day said I think there's a real problem with the lost and found category on apps you know nobody when you lose something you know where do you go to the lost property department you look up apps and it's like there aren't that really that many and I was like hmm that's kind of interesting but you know I think you need to go in and think that idea up a bit more or whatever um whereas somebody might come in and say I've you know I've got to that stage of 400 stores and I've got my uh lovely you know mustard English mustard that's better than Coleman's and you know it's super fiery and actually it's the mustard design for whatever or or actually a project I'm working on at the moment which is really interesting with uh good old Jim Arvedeek where we um have this business called the coconut collaborative you know that's really take part i'd share invest in that yeah so i started that with jim okay and when he left goo and um i um i became you know uh i was a one of the early stage risk sharers um and and i've been you know involved in that business since you know time began and it's a really difficult business for example back to you know someone who says like i've got it to a certain point how do i get over this this this hurdle of i'm i'm a small relevant and exciting brand for a small bunch of people who are really vocal and they tell all their friends about it and i've got them thinking feeling and saying and doing all the stuff i want to do but no one else gives a shit and so i've i've topped out at 10 million or whatever it is the size of the business and you're absolutely right it is is you start to have to behave differently and you have to actually also you have to alienate some of your loyalists and let them go because those people will always be interested in you so it's you know back to your wave of uh well no because you're you know once you've seen something you can't unsee it once you've been you've tried the latest if you're an early adopter uh then you love early adopting so you're always getting new stuff and you're like well unless it's new and i'm fascinated by new shiny uh brands that come come in and i'm going to you know continue to to let go of those old brands that i liked because i used to buy you know oatly and now i'm going to buy coconut collaborative and then i you know they'll probably carry on buying all the new stuff on the block the early doctors yeah the early doctors yes so so the first step is you have to let go of those people and you you have to be you have to allow yourself to not worry and go those people got you where you are but they're not necessarily the people who are going to get you where you want to go to so a lot of people cling to that and they get caught in this doom loop of i can't let my core customers go well yeah okay you're gonna stay small um so the next question is well how do you reach these bigger audiences well actually the bigger audiences are generally influenced by those smaller audiences because they look at them and they allow those people to do all of the what i call the second mouse sort of play yeah no don't worry yeah that's the authenticity yeah so so so So I think the first thing you need to do as a brand owner is to accept that you started a business being a certain type of person, probably a little bit disgruntled with the status quo, probably found it irritating that there was no one out there with a Schweppes tonic was shit.

1:19:59You know, why is my gin not got great tonic or whatever it is? And then you're going to have to accept the fact that then suddenly the consumers that you first started with, were the consumers that were like you. They were you, people like us, PLU. Yeah. And then you're going to be selling to people who are not like you, who don't necessarily feel, you know, perhaps are flying the flag and they're not as obsessed by your commitment to that brand and to that category. And you're going to have to accept that those people probably will say and do things differently to those early people. So you have to reboot.

1:20:34Hence why I'm still in the job after 20 years, because every three or four years we work with our clients to go, well, OK, how do we keep re-answering those questions? How do we keep re-energising, refreshing the answer to those questions? Because you don't just answer it once. You're constantly back to your way catching them, going for the bigger wave, going for the next set. It's almost you become, brands become fragile if they don't keep re-asking themselves that question or re-hailing out. Oh, yeah. Say wavelength. No, I didn't know. yes so i mean this is mental we haven't actually talked about this in a good mental but because ed ed from candy kittens is coming on actually i like ed yeah he's they've both been on previously but that's really good that's very successful that isn't it really well it's really successful but what we're coming what he's coming on to talk about is um you know they're at 10 million i think i wouldn't don't touch on that but they're in all distribution pretty much and most founders who are listening to this are thinking, well, they've completed it, mate.

1:21:40You know what I mean? But they're at this point where they're having to re-ask themselves this question, and that's what I want to talk to them about. I say, you've got all the supermarkets. You're in all the right places. You've got the brand following. But I suppose, is there an example? Well, I've got a good example. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I'd love to. Because I think with this, and I've talked about this a lot on the podcast, I saw this as waxing ad nors, but... I love it. Waxing ad nors. What is waxing ad nors? Shorts and ad nauseum, brilliant. But the there's almost like the zero to one million stage, which I think I've talked to you about before, is the trough of sorrow.

1:22:17Or the doom loop. But the doom loop is the same thing, which is if you don't innovate, you die. And what happens is you end up with your early adopters coming in and you get this lovely stage where you're going through the discovery phase of whether there's a business there. and then you're going through this validation phase of understanding which bits work and which bits don't. And then you go through the efficiency stage because when you now know which bits work, you want to make them really efficient before you start scaling. Otherwise, you're blowing up a balloon with a hole in it and it's just going to leak out and burst.

1:22:50It's not going to be good. So once you've kind of worked out, okay, I know what I want to scale, you then start to scale and it's brilliant. Trouble is, the people who got you in those early stages, that sort of insidious new products you know i really just gruntled with a self fucking that's shit isn't it we should make that better and they were quite you know most people innovation are quite grumpy because they're dissatisfied and they want to make things better and you know they're kind of like yeah and they're and they're bloody annoying because they're constantly reinvent you think you've just got it right like kind of getting it and they're like no it's not good enough relentlessly pursuing better and it is exhausting and a lot of people come up to me because I am probably one of those people.

1:23:30And they go, you know, Perry, I just can't work here anymore. It's too exhausting. I just don't, I'm not relentless. I don't want to continue to do that. And it's like, you know, fine, that's great. But why don't you work in that other part where, you know, that's not what we're doing. You know, there's other. And I think that you get to this doom loop, which is as you hit scale, you bring in professionals who, or so-called professionals sometimes, who go stand back. We've been there and done that. We are the ex, you know, marketing director from some massive brand and they've never worked in the startup and you have this doom potential doom point of failure very very fragile if i talk about the coconut collaborative we're in that point where you get the point where a business is ready to scale you bring in the professionals and you've either got to get people who've come in and have done the big job before they've grown a business and they go look i need systems i need process i need budgets i need teams and suddenly the brand that may have been really profitable for example in it making it was growing it was profitable people were using entrepreneurial ways of getting stuff to happen and then suddenly in someone comes and goes i need a million pounds of advertising budget i need this and you're into a really big investment stage where the culture of the business fundamentally starts to change and that's really scary because the people who made it great leave all become dissatisfied and the people who are going to take it on that next chapter are having have a very different view of the world very different agenda and they're the ones trying to make it relevant to the masses to these bigger um audiences and if they get it right you're off to the races oh my god it's hard it is really difficult because a lot of the time they cock it up and what happens is they hire people who don't get the brand you know who don't uh understand what made it great um and just basically put it through the car wash of well this is what we did when we worked for you know gordon's or whatever it was and um so in in in the case of say for example the coconut collaborative where we're challenging the big dairy um industry um you know we've got this really wonderful brand which is actually you know going up against the likes of outpro for example and you know it's it's growing really fast and it's a really sort of interesting category where suddenly you know many years ago companies didn't have you know households sorry didn't have alternative milk in their fridge now one in three sorry there's a sorry what's the stat yeah a third i think every household now i can't remember a stat i think every household has got some sort of fish i can't remember the stats but the people have got more milk in the fridge to put it in the notes.

1:26:15I think it might be that a third of all households now have an alternative milk in the fridge. It might be even bigger than that. I should know this. But if you take the coconut dump, how are they suddenly going to become like Oatly in every single household? Well, they've got to surf the wave, which is the trend is your friend. They've got to jump on that trend and they've got to start building that trend and they've got to work broader and wider with lots of other people to say, actually, it's not just about us, it's about the category we as a collective have got to grow our category if for example in the case of alternative dairy they believe that displacing conventional dairy is a vital thing so you have to work with your competitors not you know not against them to say well look we're all in this together and if you look at some categories they are really good at collaborating you know legally um you know we don't want sort of monopolism but but you get consolidation where people come in and they can really grow a category so in that scale part of the doom loop you either end up with people going right we're going to keep innovating we're going to keep reminding ourselves what made us great we're going to hire people who are good at scaling but they will not get rid of what made us great they will keep the essence that sort of i think bane called the founder mentality and we will continue to grow and then what happens is um they become you know successful but the cost engineers come in and go well we now need to make a profit because we've been growing this business and actually we've been using all the cash to grow and we've Bash, you've got to make a profit now, guys.

1:27:44So the cost engineers come in and they start to look at everything and try and tweak things and say, can we take this out? Can we take that? Can we optimize it? That kind of monetization phase. And again, that's where generally, nine times out of ten, it rarely works. I mean, very rarely does it work. And the new challenges are coming in and going, great, they've completely messed up, you know, pucker tea. Yeah, unileverable pucker tea. and now they've sold it off to whoever. And oh my God, you know, whatever happened to the guys who had that Ayurvedic yoga brand, you know? And of course, they're so big, none of the little shops want them anymore because that's where they made their ground.

1:28:25And all their friends, the people who got them there were all the little shops because they were not the big guys. And now they're the big guys. They're a victim of their own success. So that's the brand doom loop is, you know, you become a victim of your own success and very few brands managed to escape the gravitational pull of the brand doom loop And guess what? Innovation stops happening because they go into these big organizations. And a big organization, it takes 10 weeks for them to organize a meeting. So let alone, you know, in a small business, every day it's like, hey, guys, what about this?

1:28:54You come in on a Wednesday, it's done on a Thursday. Coconut Collaborative, you know, we have meetings that are about 20 minutes long. And you will go, yeah, that's brilliant. And, you know, next week we'll have another meeting, you know, about things and everything will have changed because stuff happens. whereas you know back in the big organizations as much as those people are very good people in these organizations just by dint of having so many people they can't get their acts together to even organize a diary so the innovation slows down and then what happens with the innovation it slows down you get inertia and then you get decline and guess what consumers notice and go well yeah i've done anything new and it's really boring and slowly it dies it's so yeah it totally link this all together and piece all together it's almost like when when you start out you're actually quite anti-fragile and ironically the bigger you get and the more people that come in over time you become fragile because it takes 10 fucking weeks to orgasm et one and two because you're so stagnant and sluggish there's a competitor coming to chew down on your ankles um i've got the perfect brand example for you by the way which is just uh the most extraordinary Yeah, so about three or four years ago, a company called Picnic came to meet us, who are Dutch.

1:30:09And they started this business literally, I mean, I'm going to get the date wrong, but a few years back from now, not far away. And Joris and Michiel came in to see us and said, we are basically a Dutch direct consumer retailer. We've started this business on the basis that we think that the world of retail is knackered. They were the insidious, kind of disgruntled people my age going, we're not best serving the consumer. And we currently sell brands, which, you know, all the groceries that you need via an app to people in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. And we sell about 80 % of everything you need.

1:30:52So we don't sort of do, you know, posh truffle or stuff. We sell, you know, crisp water, all the basics of household needs. And actually, we're interested in people who actually don't have much money, who are on a budget, but actually we want to serve their needs with a quality product that's valuable to them. Sorry, it's good value, it's fresher, it's greener, it's cheaper, it's faster. um and what we think is wrong with the world of supermarkets is um supermarkets themselves yeah buildings which are effectively warehouses for products where stuff sits and it's and it's a nightmare going there and we said this is right and literally this was the best project i've ever worked on my life it has absorbed me night and day for the last three years and so the first uh a few months of working with them they said look we would love you to help us with our own label proposition because we don't have one and are and they raised 300 million pounds from a family office for a startup i mean this is great and then bill gates gave them 600 million with no strings attached so i think with yoris and michiel the founders of this and what was their background sorry for being so they basically they they'd been in industry yoris i think was a procter and gamble png guy you know they're all classically trained they really has been through big industry they knew what they're doing they're world-class people who were visionary and quite rare to find people like them in the world it's good just just not to interrupt but just to interrupt sorry but the the going across the the sliding scale of experience versus naivety which was seen to be well they've they've got that yeah they've got the sweet spot where it's like they've got the experience but then they've asked themselves the the inane quote-unquote inane dumb silly questions about well how can we do this differently or why is it like that yeah i mean look so so there's so much in the picnic story that it is without question uh you know i'm obsessed by it because it is such a brilliant project and they are an extraordinary company i've never come across company like them so number one the uh the idea that you uh can be a have a sort of startup mentality as i call it at scale is is most people say you know a startup mentality i mean that's absurd perry you know of course you can't have a startup mentality the big organizations can't behave like that well that's just bollocks because that's precisely what they need to retain So Picnic are a great example of a business that had startup mentality from the get-go and still does to this day.

1:33:30And they identified the problem, which was supermarkets are just an outdated dinosaur way of getting groceries to consumers. And they used to be really efficient. I mean, actually, do you know that supermarkets were, well, someone told me that Walmart was an invention of Ford because Ford created the car. Where could anyone drive? if they didn't have anywhere to drive to, well, create big out-of-town stores and car parks. And you've got, you know, you've got a symbiotic relationship between, I've got a car. I will drive to that big store over there. So, I mean, you know, whether that's true or not.

1:34:03But it's the idea that they came to us and said that we don't have our own label range. Clearly, what we want to be able to do is offer our consumers both brands, their favorite brands, but actually, you know, clearly we want to also be able to offer them our own range of products, which are a great value. and i think they were looking to democratize quality groceries and they said we'd like you to help us develop a strategy for this and to also design and create uh the these products which was fantastic you know it was amazing that uh i was wow um how many products are there well we're going to start with 2 000 you know we'll go from there and so i you know got to know them and the really amazing things that came out of this were first of all a great line which i think it was i think it was yoris uh said it or one of them said it which was um nothing got better from sitting on a supermarket shelf it's just like a great insight so you know what gets better from sitting on a supermarket shelf literally nothing so no that's that's a great insight um the other thing was you know we we we worked together and said well what what is wrong with um with supermarkets and the way that they trade.

1:35:21And many things, apart from the inconvenience and the bloody depressing journeys that we go on, where we go and assault things we don't need, we walk around these sort of basically warehouses having to pick the products ourselves. So it's like Ikea making you make the furniture, you know, come into the warehouse, do your own picking, and then, you know, check out your own groceries. And, you know, ultimately, we've become completely ridiculous lab rats in these corridors being bombarded by people like me who design things to get people in it to buy them. I mean, you know, many years of doing it, I'm sure I'll continue to do it.

1:35:57Ultimately, if you look at it really cynically and through the eyes of a sort of naive four-year-old game, why should it be like that? It's pretty crap. And then you get into the really extraordinary thing, which is possibly divisive, which is, well if you're Tesco and you want someone to buy something cheap and oh sorry you want to back to if you want someone to buy something uh that's going to cost more you have to have something that costs less you have to have a rage you have to have a good better best tiering yeah so guess what happens uh the people who with no money who strive to try and you know make ends meet, guess what?

1:36:35They get the shit deal. They get the crappy food that's put in horrible packaging that makes it a white, red and blue that says best value. And they're psychologically constantly reminded every day that they open their cupboard door or their fridge that they don't have enough money to feed their families the best possible food that they can buy. that's shit so why should people feel like second-class citizens was our question you know and we said to yours look there's something really interesting here about this whole psychology of how people feel and they were like yeah this is this is great and yours particularly was talking about um sorry so this is so it's the same kind of mindset in in uh the netherlands as it is in the UK, the retail maker.

1:37:25The world over. This is how all retailers for years have worked, haven't they? And who can blame them? Because if you go back to the monkey and the banana, it's just how everyone's done it. Well, what we want to do is we want to buy people. There are more people without money than with money, the volume of people. They will need to buy the cheap stuff, and so we'll make it cheap. And then the people with lots of money who can afford high-end products, there are less of them, but we'll charge them more. So you end up with the pyramid of premium products at the top, small volumes, very expensive, mid-tier products which have got reasonable margins and the sort of upper mainstream where I'll pay a little bit more, but it's so much better quality.

1:38:07And then, of course, oh, here we are, you guys, you have all the shit. It's cheap and it's all about own label, cheap price and people buy on price. Now, the world has been trained to be like that by supermarkets. you know and it's been the way the way of the world well wasn't it great we were able to sit in a room and said you know what well that's all wrong why don't we you know what can we do about that and the first thing we said well actually without you know naive intelligence perhaps is we can make people feel better about the choices they make and how can we do that well first of all that you know we can look at the supply chain and this is what these guys have done they said well we can take out all the middlemen and we can give that value back to the consumer and we can go and work with producers of really good quality work of food and and drink and products um but particularly in food and we can go and find those suppliers and actually we can sacrifice some of the margin and rob peter to pay paul here to to try and create something that should be significantly either better or the same for less money you know or better for the same money and let's question this challenging of good better best and and let's challenge that and think differently about how we can present that to consumers so first things first their their model is that they only sell via an app there is no website it's just an app and so you download the app and so they they sell to you you know you buy your groceries now that that's not unusual every supermarket does it but they don't have any stores they don't have any bricks and mortar and they also they have their fleet of electric vehicles that have they very cleverly designed all special routes so that you you basically get the optimum cheapest way of getting food to customers without really using the minimum amount of carpool so all of those little savings they pass on to the consumer as much as possible they still make money but they've managed to do that.

1:40:10So that's a really clever thing. And then the next thing is, well, actually, when you're selling to people, they don't have to make those products look cheap because they're not setting on supermarket shelves. We said we don't need to design products that are designed to make people see the cheap one versus expensive one, because you can do that in the app by telling them this stuff costs this much and this stuff costs that much and it doesn't have to look cheap. It's not the packaging that's doing the work is the app so there's different ways of being able to tier your to get your uh consumers to the right products at the right price so what we did is we designed products that were designed for the home not for the supermarket shelf and they were actually designed to make people feel good about the choices not bad about the choices and to actually remind them do you know what you've got some you've got a lovely family here um and you want to make them feel good about the choices you're making and you're providing them with great coffee tea and food and all the fresh food that you're buying.

1:41:07And actually, that's not only it looks appropriate, but it actually does look like the stuff that you would traditionally be paying more for. Now, cynically, you could say, well, all you're doing is you're just over-inflating and making cheap stuff look expensive. But we're not, because we've made it all look the same. I mean with some level you know there's some semiotics which is a you know ultimately probably a long word that most people don't know what it means what I mean basically semiotics are the things that we've been programmed by uh the fact that we associate um certain codes visual and acoustic uh codes that because of the way we've been brought up and there's and how our brains have developed because we understand that if we turn a tap that's got a blue label on it, we expect cold water to come out.

1:42:03If we turn a tap with red oil, we expect, but we don't cognitively go red equals hot, blue equals cold. We just understand that because of the semiotics, the codes that we've been trained to automatically and instinctively understand that's probably a very bad it's the is the is the tantrum why does that look natural why does that look processed and the reason is is because we are with you're playing that that's what design is yeah and so all design if you look around this room is it's trying to evoke a sense at a blink which just is is uh subconscious to say oh i think i'm going to pick the natural one.

1:42:48Now, why we think that we associate natural with brown and greens, etc., is because the countryside is full of those colours. So, you bring those colours into your design, and therefore it feels natural. Now, what would be cynical would be to put natural cards and semiotics on something that's not natural. And that's obviously always a spectrum, because one person's natural is another person's synthetic. I'm sure that Michael Pollan would never agree with anything I've ever said about any of our work, because he probably thinks that what we sell is absolutely outrageous um you know because his mantra is you know eat food most of the plants not too much i think he's a genius um and would never probably be seen dead in the supermarket but you know unfortunately the world isn't like that um people need to eat and they you know so one day it will be and these picnic guys are particularly good at disrupting a category by saying well people don't need to buy their supermarket groceries the way they do they're gonna why don't they buy them like this why don't they download our app why don't they discover food differently and when it arrives the way we deliver it to them and the way we take away the rubbish by the way and all of that clever stuff is constantly being questioned by their team and back to the point which is right at the beginning which is how do you maintain naivety well they came to us and they said actually you know you guys do understand you've worked across all of these categories you've done just about everything in a supermarket for the last 20 odd years you really understand but we love what you've done with design and creativity and packaging and we love the fact that you talk about making people's lives more rewarding through design and actually we think you guys are the people we'd like to work with because of that creativity and your understanding philosophy and what we've also like to just point out guys is that the people you'll be working with that we've hired have no category experience so everyone we've hired are mathematicians engineers super bright young people and none of them have any, well, very few of them have category experience because we don't want them to come along and say that's how it's done at Albert Heine or Jumbo or whatever.

1:44:47We want them to come along with that naive intelligence. And I just thought that was genius. And they are like Google. They constantly ask themselves, why are we doing this? Let's not make that look like whatever one sees chocolate biscuits look like or whatever. you know you don't let's abandon those rules but sometimes we'll have conversations back to the naivety thinking actually let's not confuse people i mean i give you milk for example you know if you open a pack of milk and it's blue in the uk you expect back to semi-autics full fat to come out because that's the code semi-autics category i mean actually ironically in in the netherlands that's not that they have a different color code system so so there's times that you want to go with convention you want to use convention and there's times where you don't uh and and i think that's the human side and if you come back to what we were talking about earlier g chap gbt and these wonderful new amazing uh tools of artificial intelligence um i think you know the genius of all of this is that it's the more we understand about human behavior i mean we are complex beings the more we can help each other through making the right choice the easy choice for people and those people like me and my teams and the picnic teams who who who literally wake up and you know every morning you're gonna go oh how excited today what am i going to do today i have no idea something fascinating is going to happen you know we are a bit odd because we do find it fascinating and you are exactly like that you know you you have a podcast you find it fascinating to others i'm sure they think this is like watching pain drive but for us in our tribe it's it's great you know we'll do it all day and and i almost feel like a fraud that we charge for it but you know so so i think the interesting thing about um you know back to this how do you maintain naive intelligence at scale it's through back to evan's book creating a culture where you allow people to go surfing metaphorically yeah at work by allowing them to be able to play, to piss about, to have fun, to question stuff, and to not be, you know, have come to the table with preconceived ideas about how things should be.

1:47:06Of course they're going to. I mean, it's impossible not to. But to always be open to the idea of, you know what, the language we use is, you know, not that shit. Well, I'm quite bad at that. But it's actually, you know, it's, well, why? What about, you know, what would happen if we did this? What would be so wrong about changing that? Back to the annoying questions. And so, you know, we have every day, every week, we have a regular catch-up with the picnic guys. We present work break. We get work done at an enlightening speed. You know, literally, we'll work at sort of an incredible pace because they're not that 10-hour, 10-day-before-I-can-get-a-meeting-with-someone kind of organisation.

1:47:50they have a very agile and slightly to be on the outside some might say chaotic culture but you know it's good chaos the the almost when when you're agile you're not fragile going back to yeah going back to that yeah going back to that and what you said there about feeling like play there's i don't even know paul graham he's really god i feel so under under red oh god paul graham's a fascinating guy he set up y combinator oh sorry yeah okay and he's got a quote that i like i basically live by which is um you you like your goal is to find your life's work and you've got to basically find something that feels like play to you that looks like work to others so yeah the obvious example of that is is ships i mean the or musicians or musicians of like quads you know i was in a this is not being disparaging i was like you were in a pub the other night in wandsworth and there was this girl who was incredible on the guitar but she was i was like this is a complete travesty how she's probably getting paid for like a rule but and i'm like so why am i me so why would you do that why would you do that on your friday night and i was like oh well it's what feels like play to you looks like work to others yeah and i think i'd like you've you'd obviously do this with everything you've built um but i mean you know uh yes i mean let's have a laugh uh yeah yeah sometimes it looks like play and sometimes it i mean you know you're absolutely right i'm sure that every musician um loves playing music except for when they're being paid yeah they feel like they have to do something but yeah yeah well that's that that's what's interesting with with with this and kind of going back to your um to your point about potentially having as you scale you're gonna have to piss off piss off some of the early fans and the early adopters or maybe yeah or maybe so so with this is our diehard niche is fmcg founders but i'm starting to interview i've got about next month about three or four um michelin star chefs because i don't want to pigeonhole myself and that will i know i've already seen some from the downloads that stretching your brand yeah yeah yeah exactly so but but it is this is very very interesting how you have to uh to to go back to this kind of this this triad of fragile robust and anti-fragile like if if you keep doing the same thing and keep doing the same podcasts like there's only so many founders i could eventually do it this is my life's work so i need to think of something else but i think your natural thirst uh for knowledge and your inquisitive nature and someone once said to me in their dad's line uh he says maybe i got this wrong was like don't die curious and I was like is that good or a bad thing I couldn't like it I mean I don't but yeah you're you're going into adjacent categories you're you're starting with something you're constantly innovating you're you ask great questions and of course your thirst for knowledge and understanding leads you to go down to pass I mean this is a natural brand extension you know yeah but it's I think for people founders and there's so many brands listening to this who will be petrified of pissing off their cool fans yeah well and it's only it's like how so that's a really interesting going that's unearthed so um i mean obviously the irresponsible yeehaw cowboy in me is you know uh caveating all of this but it you know the the the town planner in anybody their job is to say that's bollocks uh we must keep our call but and that is their job and and actually you know businesses go bust when they lose sight of who got them there.

1:51:29So, you know, I'm as irresponsible as the next person by suggesting that you should, you know, just say, get rid of them. But you need to be prepared to face that difficult choice. The alienation and everything I've learned, you know, to the hard way, actually, I'm very impatient. And my, you know, so knowing more about yourself is a really important thing so at the beginning of any workshop now or any process and this doesn't go down that well i ask everybody well i i ask everyone to to share their profiles i ask you know if they're if they're willing to people to really bear their soul with will for example will chase yeah i said look i it's really important that we that we do a personality profile of everyone in the room because unless we understand what your bias is how can we facilitate a room where we don't know what lenses you're looking at the world through and you've got to get to know the people that you're working with so that you can balance this and the genius back to i'm going to keep going back to chat gpt which is i think the really important is knowledge is king you know understanding and really being able to uh spend more time on what's important rather than what's not important or rather short cutting things so that you focus on what's important at that particular time is, especially as you get older, time is so critical.

1:52:57You get so little time to really fussily about the sweating the small stuff, as Rory says, that really important things that quite often and most times are neglected because people just haven't got time. And all of these amazing tools will allow us time because they shortcut loads of the crap. And I never believed that that the uh artificial intelligence guys would come after the creatives first you know i was like they're surely they're gonna go for the robotic you know all of that stuff and in fact of course they're gonna come off so how are you using it oh god i mean i'm obsessed by it i i think i i have spent my life listening to idiots like me probably uh you know people repeating themselves time and time again to the point where you just want to throw yourself out a window and you go, my God, are we listening to this again?

1:53:54Because it's just brilliant basic stuff. So I'll give you an example. Every marketing director that's sat in that chair in the last 28 years has said to me, at some point, all we need to do, Perry, is grow penetration and frequency. it was like yeah okay and then that conversation will be constantly had again and again it's like well all we need to do is is this and and people just never actually say but yeah but how but what are you actually going to do and so everyone reads byron sharp and says you know brand how do brands grow they i don't know if you have but it's a very you know well-known trident tested and of course irrefutable logic about how do brands grow.

1:54:41First of all, they need to have both physical and mental availability, as they call it. They've got to be everywhere you need them, and everyone's got to know that they exist. Well, okay, great. But how do you do that is the key thing. And what things like ChatGPT do is they allow you to dive deep, because you don't have to spend time processing shit loads of very badly written briefs so i love taking enormous documents and shoving them into ai and going can you just tell me what that says in five bullet points it saves me hours i mean it's awful i've pasted emails i've not rented to it i just literally i mean every day i get emails slacks oh just just paste it chat what okay i mean someone sent me a disgruntled note the other day which was literally 17 pages of a document must have taken them weeks to run i did do the decency of reading there but i just thought okay before i read this chat gpt it just chucked it in there it was too long i had to do the sections i said please summarize this in 10 bullet points bang okay that's worth reading i'll read it but we've got to process so much information and you know my copywriters hate for bringing in jasper you know and i'm like jasper oh it's another it's basically all of these businesses all of these jasper's chat it's a chat gbt bot and it has i mean there are loads i love how you refer to it in like a humanist it's called jasper but i mean you know honestly that when i a year ago i said i think it was a year ago when i first sent rams to the whole company i said look this is the future guys we've got these amazing ai tools um use them they are amazing but don't rely on them just use them do rely on them but use them then they're the opposite of displacing your job they are they are just amazing tools in the same way photoshop is amazing photoshop made more photographers not less you know fearing the technology is the worst thing fortune favors the brave be brave when it comes to technology this is my obsession and i mean i'm terrible because i'm not brief so to have a tool allows brevity i can write something chuck it into that and it goes oh my god say that in four words and make them all begin with p yeah what yeah it's beautiful it's brilliant and others and it's never going to displace you well it'll only displace the humans that allow it to displace final final point i want to explore with you and it's because just yeah kind of avalanches of information which is just sorry no no in a good way obviously chat chat gdp yeah you can just chat this is a chat gdp they'll come out and perry's a load of talks a load of shit and uh don't even remember again but but the we talked we've talked about kind of self-criticism and will chase actually said to me that there's the selfish gene by richard dawkins well i put him i get it he said he said this is a perryism and it's got me he got what he said and i was like the selfish gene i was like okay so you're the biggest fit not saying you're the biggest fish but you're a big fish and if you're if you're putting this into say a pool of small fish like the the it got me really thinking like the the biggest look i may be butchering the the the selfish dork is but the biggest 20 odd years ago is still the greatest sort of genetic yeah but by but it got me thinking that the authority the most selfish gene or the one that kind of is the strongest is the most self-critical so that so if you look at this in terms of the artists i don't know if you've seen on um the beatles documentary get back on on or have i not that that's bloody hell dan i'm about yeah this was like my entire life wasting away the next few days of reading all these books and what that's like but anyway in that like you don't get the beatles they were so self-critical they're like yeah there's there's a thing of them radical candorism yeah and they're just they're just like do do more do be better but the best chefs, Marco P.O.Y., Gordon Ramsay, they were so relentlessly self-critical on themselves.

1:58:46I mean, you see it. I think the selfishness is the most self-critical person. And I think the way, I think there's innate in the founders to really make it. There's this element of punishment in the pursuit of perfection. And I'd love to like, well, first question is, why is the shellfish? it's a new brand yeah the selfish gene yeah well the shit why is the selfish gene um such like in terms of pulling that into the lens of challenger brands why is that so pertinent well the reason i sent that book to will as a read was partly to to stop him whatsapping me at 4 a.m in the morning so because just read this and it is you know the reason i sent the selfish gene by richard dawkins to to will uh and actually another thing about daniel dennett was was really daniel dennett uh These are the sort of philosopher turned scientists.

1:59:40They're all into, they're basically scientists who know so much. I mean, I couldn't begin to even understand half of the stuff that I've read in their books. But I started reading it because my daughter, Helmetica, is obsessed by biochemistry. And I wanted to try and stay somehow in the conversation to understand what she was learning and to be able to sort of really help her. but of course I couldn't because she's genius and I'm not. But so I started reading some of the books she was just reading and she was reading The Selfish Gene. And I think there's a, you know, I wouldn't for a second suggest that The Selfish Gene should be trivialized or, you know, we should try and even begin to understand how that relates to brands.

2:00:26But the reason I sent it to Will was partly because i felt that he was diving so deep because he's so inquisitive that it was almost that he was getting back into the microbiome biome and we were talking about the stuff that i feel very strongly about which is that um unless we fundamentally and radically um reform the way we create and produce food um we really don't have very long um and you know the the relentless pursuit of better and the kind of brutal self um deprecation i suppose of sort of i you know i don't understand enough and i feel like a complete fool because i just every time i ask a question i think i should know the answer to that there's a balance between you know beating yourself up for not knowing enough and and and also enjoying learning and for me when we started talking about food first of all i was obsessed by you know christ um how on earth is the world going to deal with this low carbon food issue which we need we need to produce food with low carbon oh my god how are we going to feed you know seven billion people these are questions that i should not be asking myself four in the morning because how the hell am i going to do anything about it but one does i think one does read books and starts to catastrophize and house you know especially as you're older when you have children you think you know how the hell are we going to deal with this what part can i play in it that's very much where i was and then i sort of thought well it kind of goes back to every time i read anything about or i was kind of client comes to see me and says we've got the solution perry because it's all about you know it's all about soil and actually the depletion of uh you know nutrients in the soil or perry um yeah actually do you know what it's all about is water and it's all about you know all these sort of things so you read and you go deeper and deeper and deeper and you go okay now let's look at the soil let's look at the microbiome let's look at our gut and then you get down to oh shit it's about dna and it you know i mean and and how deep into the sort of reductio ad absurdum as the latin thing you know taking it to the ridiculous how deep can you go well you can go deeper deeper deeper and dive deeper deeper until you get to proteins and dna and then what you find in there which is fascinating even to the layman because that book is meant to be written for layman but i couldn't get my head well it's it's tough you still have to have a grasp of basic science you know and i was like wow what's really fascinating is that dna we have evolved because of the mutant gene because the selfish gene and selfish gene complex theory is all about this fact that actually you know the survival of the fittest or the survival of the gene that has all sorts of complex conflicts in its in its need to be the survivor you know and again i don't begin it's embarrassing because i don't begin to really understand the concepts behind Richard Dawkins' theories, but I was really fascinated that in there, there are some answers that perhaps the more we know about them, and the more that people like Will, for example, look at those who are, you know, he's trying to promote a healthy way of producing food and using fermentation, and he was really struggling to articulate why it was so important.

2:03:49I said, well, it's about the science. And if you don't understand the science, we need someone who does and we need someone who can make the science easy for everyone to understand and then you start to think wow we can make a difference so where i got to was back to this relentless pursuit of better and being sort of hard on yourself and the survivors being the people who will literally you know go to you know they will self-sacrifice which is actually in that book there are there are scenarios where you have for the greater good there are the sacrificial genes. They actually kind of throw themselves out for the good of the herd.

2:04:28And there's all sorts of clever philosophy around how that works. And I was thinking, well, actually if you think about it, you've got four types of people that I interface with and I can work with and I meet on a regular basis. The first ones are investors, people where we put our money. The second one are innovators the great inventors the people who we've been talking about the third are the people who made the laws the policymakers and the regulators and then the fourth are consumers and that those are kind of how my world splits you know i have investors my world is and they're amazing and you have innovators and policymakers and consumers and if you think about that food chain and that was given to me by a guy called chris chen he's a friend of mine who he said to I mean, these are the four most important bodies that will make a difference when it comes to low-carbon.

2:05:19I was like, that's genius. Why did I never think of that? And actually, when you focus around those four things and you think about each of those people relentlessly pursuing better and being selfish, or not, you know, selfish is a difficult word and it's perhaps antagonistic, but being, you know, looking out for what's next and how can they survive and what's going to increase the chances of survival of all life on earth ultimately. Well, if you've got investors who are really, really responsible and actually do ask questions more deeply and don't ignore the brutal truth, then they embrace that attitude that we've talked about, which is I'm open, you know, I have no agenda.

2:06:05If you tell me and I've got an authority that actually this is the way that we should be using bioreactors to create all sorts of clever things that are going to displace bad things like palm oil, fuck it, let's do it, you know, let's just go and brave it out and let's take on the big boys, let's take on the naysayers. That's one thing, you know, you've got investors doing that. You've got innovators begging them for money, going, you know, give me the money to make car batteries that will not fuck the planet or you know cars that won't fuck the planet or all that kind of stuff so again those people are relentlessly pursuing better on behalf of themselves and their their idealism and you know you've got to somehow bridge the gap between these investors and these inventors and someone has to do it and then well that's no good because they might invent some fantastic solutions that have got all the money but hang on the bloody law says they can't put this stuff in the in the world or they can or whatever it is so the lawmakers are the ones are going to have the greatest power of influence because if they make it law if everyone else is fucked anyway so that's good so yeah the quickest way to make stuff happen is by law yeah people generally are law abiding so ban smoking you know ban bad ingredients ban stuff you know and and so that's really key and then eventually you've got these consumers these poor sort of sheep who are you don't know what they're me you are going in to the general supermarkets, going, you know, what do I want them to, I don't know, what am I meant to do?

2:07:28Am I meant to do this? I mean, so last week it was told that this was a bit bad for me. Now I'm told it's good for me. So we've got to make the right choice, the easy choice for them. And you've got to connect all those four people, you know, these four types of, you know, communities. And so I think scientists are the future. They have been always around. And now, you know, the future really is being paved by the understanding the deeper understanding of how we as human beings function and and what our consequences of us being on the planet are and the more we understand that the more likely we are able to control our destiny and do something about it which is why i sent him that book to say look i know will your brain is sparking on a thousand times a second but you want to create a brand which is this brand he's got called willies he wants it to all be about you know fermentation and the microbiome and it is very clever stuff but his difficult choices back to all of the things we were talking about those five questions which is how do you take a man like that and make his vision will go global you know he literally has got global domination i mean he's amazing and i wouldn't put it past him but you know he's riddled with self-doubt.

2:08:45He's riddled with all these things that are stopping him getting there. And he needs people like you and people like us to help him get his message out to the world in a way that makes it easy for everyone to understand and to put it to corporate culture. And also, we all bloody hope that he's got the right solution. And in fact, the best way to know that is if you triangulate it with a sort of peer group evaluation of all the best scientists in the world going, yeah, that's great. And of course, you know, the world is not simple. The world is not funny. We need an inflorescence of solutions, some of which may or may not be right, but ultimately most of which have got to either displace bad with less bad or bad with good.

2:09:22And I bow to all of the great intelligent people on the planet, and that's why you and all the people like us read all these books in a kind of quest to try and find what is the source of the solution. And I think if someone discovered the DNA extraordinary way that the world runs on DNA all those years ago and can see and correlate the essence of life itself all the way through right to how we behave, well, I'm going to give them some time a day. And I think we should all know more about that before we start going off and deciding how we're going to change the way we grow food. It's, yeah, no, I mean, great energy.

2:10:07It's fascinating. i mean i think kind of ties them together it's an absolutely no no no but like but as in like there is this new wave that's coming to link it back to to what we're talking about but also in terms of this fragile robust and anti-fragile i think the founders i meet who are the most it's a bit of an irony who the founders i meet are the most anti-fragile i.e the constant self criticism the constant self-doubt are the most probably fragile internally i.e in their head but the most fragile internally because they're never satisfied that's very good point and i think it's like i suppose i asked this final question to yourself because i will never you know i i really struggle to be at like to be at peace on wisconsin the next thing and i asked this to will i was like you know are you happy like is is it just is i don't think i'll ever be satisfied i don't know you will i'm afraid unless there's something you will have people like you and all of my clients who have been successful live in a constant state of dissatisfaction.

2:11:08But they have some very expensive therapists. You know, if you make a lot of money, that's generally the worst thing because you become even more dissatisfied and you realise it's not about the money. I think you're always going to have this balance between finding happiness with dissatisfaction. And that's a great sort of oxymoron or whatever that word is that describes... We have Rory to talk about this because he's far more articulate and brilliant about all this. but I think there is that necessary unstable equilibrium between feeling content and feeling discontent and it's a bit like walking you have to fall over before you correct yourself that's how we walk and as long as you can surf back to your original thing you know as long as you can enjoy the kind of the ups and the downs if you're surfing you know there's going to be times when you're enjoying the ride and then there's the paddling out you got to do to get to enjoy the ride and the dissatisfaction is the necessary paddling out perhaps and your metaphor that gets you those rides but it's um you know where it's dangerous is when it's flat car and you're just paddling out and then you're fucked you know so just don't don't don't just just don't go surfing you know but i mean i you know it's fascinating i mean i think your podcasts are really inspirational and your ability to get people to talk out loud and say think out loud you know certainly in my case ramble and in in the company of others be it through a podcast um will have untold ripple effects that you will never know and i think that's really amazing because i wouldn't be able to do what you do that's definitely and um you know and i really take my hat off to people like you because that's a very brave act and you're putting yourself out there and you're you know you're really putting yourself in a situation of vulnerability i do this and you tell you show up and you do it time and time again and that persistence is really key so you know entrepreneurs are generally self-doubters riddled with you know dissatisfaction but they are they have an incredible level of resilience and you know whether it's dogmatic persistence through just you know banging a head against the wall until it breaks or but it's more than that it really is uh a kind of quality that i've seen which is they can get back up on their feet really quickly and they can put the past behind them and go forward they they don't care about some costs they don't care about what's gone before i mean you know that is my advice to anyone is if you think you want to go and start a business go and speak to someone who's had a failed business and see and really try and understand what it's like because if you haven't failed uh you're not trying hard left mate sorry no that was absolutely unreal unreal and it's um it's similar to the rory you you've got questions you don't even need to um you can just go and we can just it's perfect wrap the job thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you like that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search damn pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much