Escaping Depression, Finding Your Calling, Cooking Every Fish In The World - Andrej Cooks Fish

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39:03What other little things have you learnt now? You don't know. You just literally... So the one I posted the other day, a couple of days ago, I think... Let me check. Do you mind? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, so I posted one. What day are we? It's Friday. You sure? Yeah. I think I posted this motherfucker on Wednesday evening. So it's just got over 800 and something thousand views. Promising. I was hoping it would do well. I mean, this is pretty good.

39:39But it was anybody's guess. The one I had posted before was I was doing a starry smooth sound, which is a shark. Now, sharks are controversial, notwithstanding the fact that it's responsibly and sustainably sourcing. And this piece in question is not as questionable. But here we are. It didn't do as well. I mean, you know. Yeah. So, I have no idea. How do you deal with the internal monologue of like beating yourself up if it doesn't do well after putting all that work in? The moment you press upload, you forget about it. You move on to the next piece. Yes. You have to mentally, you just have to shift your focus onto the next piece.

40:27It's like, it's done. The baby's out. Let it go. Let it crawl on its own. Yes. Basically. Yes. So talk to me about why you're doing this. You said you had no issues. Right. Do you mind? Because this jumping to and fro is like, you know, discombobulating my internal OCD. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think we left off me working for this British company in Germany. Yeah. So I was, at that time, I was at the tender age of 29, approaching 30. I was like, I'm either going to bloody shoot myself or change something drastically in my life. Because at that point, I was really miserable. Really miserable.

41:06Talk to me about what were your thoughts when you woke up in the morning? I was miserable. I don't even remember. It was like, that's a great thing about knowing how to cope with trauma. You just suppress it. What was the trauma? I don't remember. I suppressed it. I'm very, very diligent. Yes. But what, so what do you, if you don't remember that feeling? I don't want to remember it. It's a choice. Yes. So I was like, no. It's meaningless. There's no meaning to your life. Yes. Like, what am I going to do? Am I still going to be, you know, pushing pencils in 10 years or 20 years time? And I was spending all my money on, you know, restaurants, wine and women anyway.

41:47So. Yeah. Yeah. And no, because I've got friends who are going through that. What are you laughing at? I've got friends who are going through that period now, that sort of 29, 30 point. Oh, yeah, good luck. It's a quarter-life crisis, and they feel like they've got no purpose. You're kind of like a lot of them in recruitment, where the high and dopamine buzz of making dough eventually wears dry, and you're like, well, I'll tell you one better. I wasn't even making that much money. I mean, I was talking corporate in Germany. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not Wall Street, mate. So you said you wanted to wake up and some days wanted to fucking shoot yourself.

42:24Yeah. Like, talk to me, rock bottom, the best things happen. No, rock bottom. I remember it was March the 15th, 2010. Yeah. My father had come to visit and we were having lunch that day. So I rocked up a bit early and started pounding the Serbian moonshine to muster up the courage to, you know, talk some, you know, some important matters. So he arrived. I was like, Andre, are you well? I was like, does it fucking look as if I, you know, was doing all right. And what's wrong? I said, mate, have I done everything that's been expected of me? I finished two schools, which I wasn't supposed to because I barely finished my undergrad and I barely managed to finish my postgrad.

43:24I was always bottom of the class. Terrible. It was a pain. I did not enjoy academia at all. I was really, really bad. And by bad, I mean abysmal. I've tried over the years to gain advance in the corporate world and do this business thing can I do something I feel I was meant to do I was like yeah talk to me I was like alright I want to open a restaurant because let's face it what we do in our free time is talk about shoot the shit about what the idea of a restaurant would look like is like oh interesting and basically we had a brief chinwag I want to open a restaurant but before I do that I need to know how kitchen functions I need to understand the essence of the craft the stuff that goes on behind the curtain I want to go to Paris to the Cordon Bleu to the Grand Duplom so Pastery and Cuisine to learn how this thing goes okay how long does this take is like are they how you know what's the what's the process like don't worry they've already expected accepted me because i'd already like submitted an application like yeah yeah you're in how much is basically how much this is going to cost and how much it's going to take and what's the plan afterwards okay here's the plan next 30 14 months this and that in terms of cash flow, and then figure out whether I want to run a restaurant from the kitchen, i.e.

45:07as chef, or front of the house. Because even then, I knew you can't do both. Anyway, okay. March 15th, 2010, which is my unofficial second birthday. I handed in my resignation, and I haven't been depressed since. Not for a single bloody day. what was the depression like I don't remember anymore I suppress it it's got it out of the window but it was terrible you can't get out of bed in the morning let's let's start with that and when you go to bed when you go to bed in the evening you just want to you just want to drink and smoke as much weed and forget about reality as possible and just you know sort of procrastinate going to bed because that procrastinates you waking up to yeah I've yeah I've had days like that like Like it just over the years where just, I think people who've got sort of creative minds, there's at some point there'll be some sort of running with overthinking anxiety, which can then bubble into sort of depression.

46:12I've definitely had, had those days. And it's just like, I was just used to sort of dread waking up and it's sort of, but I think being, having a creative outlet certainly helps me with that. It's like, if I don't get my creativity done, it's like my brains, I always say it's like a fucking force. and my brain's like a force and it's like I've got all these fucking ideas and if I don't turn them into something I will create something then it just sort of manifests and turns into my anxiety. So 15th March is your rebirth. Talk me through the steps. Like what did you learn at Cordon Bleu? Shit, that's tomorrow.

46:47Yeah, that is. That is wild. Blimey, mate. Yeah. Serendipitous, baby. Serendipitous, mate. Yeah, talk me through Le Cordon Bleu. that's how you say it chili flakes sorry oh right good so before I knew it I was in Paris best year of my life and here's the fun bit you're 29 yeah I was 29 yeah so the way the cordon bleu system is structured is if you do the either the well grand diplomas or the full diploma in either cuisine or pastry it's subdivided into three trimesters as it were so basic intermediate and advanced. So I did the, so in every, each trimester consists of, oh shit, 20 courses I think.

47:38Basically think of those courses as recipes. So 20 courses. So introductory course, you learn, I think we did stocks or something, I don't even remember. So you have three hours of demos. You're sat there, you've got the chef in front in that demo hall, sort of classroom, and they show you everything. And then after that, you go to class, which is basically a big kitchen with eight to 10 working stations, at least that's what it was like back in the day. and then it's the age of 10 of you with a basket of ingredients and then you just have to basically do what you have been shown. And there's a chef who teaches, who shows you how things are done and at the end of that class they give you sort of grades which they keep to themselves.

48:38So you get marks for I think organisation, cleanliness, obviously presentation, plating, which is the same thing, and taste so you know the cuisson whatever all right so i did the first trimester and i did not skip a single class neither demo nor practical class neither on in cuisine nor in pastry it was so fulfilling and at school i would just look to houses i couldn't wait to skip classes because I fucking loathed it. Anyway, so end of trimester one, end of basic, we had their sort of diploma certificate ceremony. The whole class was, you know, with the whole class and the chefs would give away, you know, share the grades and everything.

49:35I decided to stay at home and watch No Reservations with Anthony Bourdain because I couldn't stand the idea or I didn't feel like being humiliated for being shit at something yet again. So there I was, high as a kite, watching Anthony Bourdain at home. Got a call from one of my best classmates back in the day. I said, Andrew, where the hell are you? I was like, well, I'm here. It's like, I'm at home. I didn't really need to attend this. I was like, why? I said, mate, they just called out your name. You're on a roll. I think I was the third best in class. Wow. I was like, shut up. Stop pulling my leg.

50:11I was like, no, seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, what? So, I mean, I was too far gone with the fairies. I didn't go to school that day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the next day I show up and, you know, the director or, you know, the guy running the corner below. He's like, so, yes, we're missing you. You know, you're one of our best, like, students. I was like, sorry, mate, too much to cope with at the moment. are you pulling my legs? I said, no, you're really good. So, you know, the chefs are actually, you know, they think you're doing a pretty good job at cooking. I was like, wow. So this is what it feels like not being shit at something.

50:52And then I took it really seriously. And I'd accumulated so many points. Then something else happened. Final exam at the end of the whole thing. What are they examining you on? What's the stuff they're examining you on? Well, it's the same thing. Organizational skills, how you organize your working space, because cooking is all about organization. You just replicate a recipe. At the end of the day, cooking is just following steps, making sure you're not in anybody's, you're not in your co-worker's space. And you have your mise en place properly set up, follow the steps and, you know, time management, doing things parallel.

51:37Yeah, so there I was, final exam. And that's where my over-eager ego kicked in. I was like, I'm going to show them. I'm going to create the best final exam they've ever seen. I completely botched it. What did you try and create? My pom-anna were crispy, but in a burnt sense. my uh my foie gras foie gras um flan was too flanny and that bloody grouse i couldn't eat grouse for a couple of years because i was so traumatized completely overcooked i mean that do you know how quickly how do you know how quickly grouse turns dry i don't well i know now yeah i hadn't known until that point so even so as as as the dish went out I was like my chef looked at me like all right and yeah I yeah I didn't I I didn't perform too well on that because I just tried too much it was just way too complicated luckily the grades I had accumulated prior to the exam was so good that I still ended up in a pretty decent percentile.

52:57I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. But that's that basically and this is when I realized, okay, I've got something going on in the culinary world for me and then I went back to Germany. No, sorry, then I did several internships at fish and seafood restaurants. They made an exception for me because you're supposed to do an internship at the restaurant and an internship at a pastry place if you do the conne plan. And I was like, no, guys, come on, I don't give, I mean, I like, I mean, I have an ingredient sweet tooth speaking of which

53:31right so I did two internships at fish and seafood restaurants in Paris Germany sorry you don't mind if I just prepare a little nosh yeah what are these he looks happy doesn't he yeah they look fucking delightful I just took the liberty to get some sweet grub from I think so that's a Napoleon it's a honey cake and a pistachio something cake. Wow. Yeah. That Napoleon cake looks unreal. Yeah, so sorry. Yeah, so three restaurants. How do we do this? Okay. I went, so the first internship I did was, in fact, during the winter Christmas break. I went to Hummerstübchen in Dusseldorf. So, funny enough, hummer means lobster in German.

54:23They did, at that point, they still had two Michelin stars. So, pretty fucking ambitious shit. What were the learnings you took from that kitchen? I'm not meant to work in a kitchen. So, to quote the chef, is, so, here's the thing. Whatever task they would give me, the outcome, so if I had to do whatever, twills or whatever, But it was always impeccable. The only problem is the time it took me was completely unacceptable. I'm very slow. Right. I'm really slow. And at this point he was like, mate, you're just like, you're a freelance artist. Like, let's face it, the results are really good, but you're a freelance artist.

55:09It's like, it takes too much time. Yeah. People to come for you until you get your stuff together. Yeah, sure. I wasn't really Deterred by it But Then the second Internship I did So basically This is where I learned How to make Lobster Lobster Yeah you need to Come close to that Yeah yeah A lobster bisque Yeah Yeah Good And then Second internship Was at I think The most For me personally Most revered restaurant Le Dibelik In Paris Still exists Under new management And slightly different And one Michelin star, but back in the 70s, Monsieur le Divelec, he invented a dish called the lobster press.

55:50So same as a duck press. What's a duck press? A duck press. Basically, you have the duck. You cook the duck, you debone it, and then you take the bones, the carcass. roasted I think and then you put it into that press it's like either cast iron or silver depending on how bougie the establishment is and you add the the cooking juices you just pour them over it and you press the living soul out of it you know it's the square root of duckiness right you've got the juices and the cucks and everything the drippings you just you just collect what does the pressing do to the duck well it just squeezes out the juices inside of you know i presume marrow juices yes yes blood and everything and you just collect that and then it's also table size so it's because French grande cuisine.

56:44Yeah. So you flambe the rest in front of the customer. The customer. And then you monté the sauce, you flambe it, you monté, you add creme fraiche or whatever. Yeah. And he did that with lobster. Fun story. Anyway, I'll get... Yeah, yeah, keep going. We'll circle back. Right. So two months in, Divelec, amazing stuff I learned. Very old school seafood cookery. I did have a few bump-ins. Bump-ins. Yeah. I mean, come on, it's a kitchen. Yeah, so tell me, what was the biggest bump in? Oh, definitely at that restaurant. So we had the sous chef at some point, because again, I'm slow. Yeah. And I'm 6 '3".

57:22At that point, I weighed probably a bit more than I do now, so about just under 90 kilos. And again, I'm not lethargic, but it's like, you know, I'm slow. And at some point, I was in the heat of service, or it was after the service, which was very intense, and we were cleaning up. and the sous chef and there was this internal um there was this internal conflict between my chef de party i was i think working the entre métiers or garde manger not sure and the sous chef who was running the he was the well whatever and i was there paul and my chef wanted me to clean up a certain section and the other guy wanted to clean up me to clean up the other section and they were sort of shuffling me around.

58:09And then obviously, if there's a stalemate between the bigger powers, it's the pawn who gets the boot. So the sous chef comes up to me and he starts yelling at me and he's like, you give me a push. And at that point, I was like, dude, I'm a 6 '3", 90 kilo Serbian dude. Are you serious? So I took him by the collar. I just pulled him up, pressed him against the wall. I was like, what the fuck are you doing? there's a no-go in a restaurant. It's like generally... Have you read Kitchen Confidential? Two or three times. How? So that's Bourdain's book. I love that book. It's one of my favourite books.

58:49Unfortunately, except for the sex bit where this one guy was shagging the bride in the back of the restaurant. Yeah. Bang on. Really? Yeah, I miss those days. So talk to me how your experience was similar to Kitchen Confidential. I mean, again, I only spent, in total, six months in proper kitchen. So, Hummerstupechen? Yeah. It was very German. Yeah. So, you worked there for like 15 hours, quiet. Yeah. No talking, nothing. Yeah. I'm a talker, as you can see. Yeah. Difficult. Le Divelec, as amazing as it was, there was too much internal friction. So, Hummerstupechen, Germany. Yeah. And then there was another one called the Fabre de Fontaine.

59:32It's a Basque French fish and seafood restaurant, a bit more modern, tiny. And that was actually a lot more easy going because, and this is what I realized, weirdly enough, I was the apprentice sort of stagiaire. And the kitchen was extremely tiny. So the whole restaurant was smaller than this room. And the kitchen was sort of adjacent, like next to it. It was so small that it turned into a big advantage for me because I may be slow. But if I don't have to move around, I can be pretty quick because all I had to do was turn around. So everything was in reach. I can reach over my colleagues. I can just everything.

1:00:15You can reach down there, mate. Sorry. I could reach across. Yeah. And that actually worked pretty well. Yeah. That actually worked pretty well, weirdly enough. So all the different learnings from the three different kitchens, you can sum it up. Generally speaking, I'm too slow and I'm way too late to the game. I was 30, almost 31 at that time. And I realized, you know, by the time I would reach the required adeptness to run a restaurant from the kitchen to my standards, I would have to invest so much time and I was still under a lot of pressure to get things going. You know, in terms of opening a restaurant that I decided, no, do you know what?

1:00:59when I go back to Germany, I'm going to open a restaurant, but employ an executive chef and have kitchen staff. I'll supervise everything. So technically I'll be the head chef. So I sign off on the menu. I'll oversee, yeah, the, you know, the recipes and, you know, the financial aspects. But I'll have someone else run the kitchen. Yeah. So then you go back to Germany, open the restaurant. What's it called? Andre's Oysterwein Restaurant. It does what it says on the tin. Love that. Tin? On the tin. What tin? Yay.

1:01:43So then you go, yeah, so you open that restaurant. Describe what that period was like for you. Blissful. I mean, where do you think I got all this grey hair from? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I found this restaurant. It was an Italian place. and again, serendipity, I run into a friend of mine I'd known for, you know, decades. So what are you up to? I was like, nothing. I'm looking for a restaurant. I want to set up a restaurant. What are you up to? I'm trying to find a buyer for my father's restaurant. You're like, gosh, yeah. So nothing of mutual interest then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we sat down and the rest is history.

1:02:19So we signed off. I got this amazing place in Dusseldorf and I gutted everything. It started off as a just, you know, fixer-upper. I was like a month in, I was like, no, let's gut this. So, talk to the bank, the works. And it took nine months, the most stressed, probably the most stressful, intense nine months of my life. Like, no sleep, no nothing. I was living on the construct, you know, at the construction site. I had a small flat crash pad above the kitchen. I gave up washing, you know, even to taking showers, cutting my hair, whatever. It's like you wake up early in the morning and you're just on site with the builders.

1:03:15And then you make the shift from getting permits, signing off on works, supervising builders, drawing up the layout and commissioning. Everything was bespoke. Say everything. Say everything. Everything. Everything. There's nothing. Nothing came easy. And then you make the shift from, okay, we got to this stage. Now I have to start thinking about recruiting because, mate, I had no one. And then, again, luck. I realized at that point, luck would be the business, my business plan for life. Yes. So this very good friend of mine, he just called me up. He had several restaurants at that time. I ran into his brother from Dusseldorf today around the corner.

1:04:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally on my way to this interview, he's like, the fuck are you doing here? We're just in a chat. He's like, what? Completely bonkers. Anyway, I'll cut off the cake in a second. I'm just in the flow. And again, I'm unable to multitask. That's another deficiency. If you're running a kitchen, I can't multitask. So I either talk or I cut cake. Yeah, yeah, just talk. Where were we? Your restaurant. Yeah, I'm trying to get to the learnings. What did you learn from that period? You said it's all hard, but what were the actual tangible lessons you took from that period? So you don't think much about it.

1:04:37You just pull through. And then I recruited the chef. Yeah. And that was, again, so much. So yeah, this friend of mine, he calls me, I'm Andre, I have this application for the position of a head chef at one of my restaurants. I'm fully staffed, but perhaps she might be the, you know, she makes a good impression. You know, she makes a good impression. She sends over her CV, or I have a phone interview, and I have her over for an interview, and in walks this East German lady, slightly older than me, Claudia Schröter. She walks in, East German, so pretty restrained, straight to the point, not very tall, but equally sort of not intimidating, but she makes her presence felt, she's a fucking chef.

1:05:23So I was like, okay, her visa looks good, looks good, but I have to get a second opinion. So I call up another maize of mine who was at that time, Germany's youngest Michelin star chef. He had received his first start at the age of 23. So he was running his kitchen. He had this Michelin-Sci restaurant. I was like, Marcel, mate, can you help me out? I'm going to send over an applicant. Can she work at night at once? Can she just do a service with you guys and you tell me what you think? So I sent, she acquiesced. She went over. At the end of the service, I swing by. I was like, so Marcel, how is she doing?

1:06:03He was like, Andrew, come over here. You'll never do this shit to me again. I was like, why? It's like 10 minutes in, not only myself, but I was watching what I was doing, as not to make a bloody fool of myself in front of her. She was that good? He was like, if you don't hire her, you might as well kiss your career goodbye, because that's a no-brainer. What did you learn from her? What life skills did she teach you?

1:06:31Fear is good. Go into that more. let's put it this way in the beginning I would call her chef because that's how I was sort of brought up in the French kitchen you called the chef chef but she would call me call me back chef because I was the owner I was the boss I was the patron so at the end of the day I dropped the chef and I just called her by her name and she would continue calling me chef but no the thing is it's like if you're excellent you don't have to flaunt it people know if you're good and that immediate

1:07:09commanding of respect that unspoken respect you can't fake it and the fear thing, talk about that you talk about the fear I make it sound so dramatic she's a lovely lady but it's just people really you know it's the respect you command in the kitchen, you can't be too to chill yes it has to be organised yes every day is another day on the line and everything you know you can't mess up any given night you can't there's no margin for error and what how did you design the menu with her because it's like you've got all these ideas in your head she's this sort of that was super simple actually we you know we decided early on it's obviously it's going to be fish and seafood and an oyster bar and because she had she was classically trained I mean, she wasn't into all that molecular gastronomy foamy shit.

1:08:05Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had sort of brought a restaurant beforehand to Michelin level. That's sort of the tragedy of her life. She had brought it to a level. Then after, you know, after I think she spent in the taco in Cologne, I believe. So she left the restaurant. And a few months later, they got the star. Oh, God, yeah. And so she was never technically a Michelin star chef. but, mate, she was the head chef at the Villa Joia in Portugal. Yes. I mean, you just drop that name and people are like, oh, let's shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:41No, right. Designing the menu. We want to go classic. So that was pretty straightforward. Do things that people would know and just keep a very, very high standard of quality. in saut meunière, monkfish grenobloise, but done properly in cast iron serving dishes. And we'll do a lot, a lot, and by a lot, I mean like unfathom, like over the top table side service, which came back to bite me in the ass because, you know, for reasons we'll get to later. Tell me now. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of filleting, table side filleting. You need staff for that. Not only trained staff, but like, like good hands yeah yeah and this is the problem in germany it's very difficult you think we're having difficulties now in london that's nothing compared to germany because in germany is it germany let's face it's a kind of a wasteland it's people don't want to work and what's even worse guests i had lovely guests but there's only like a certain amount of people that are potential guests.

1:09:50Sure. And if there's not enough, you have a problem. And fish is not inexpensive. And high, you know, ambitious French table side, classic serving demands, a certain amount of, you know, financial willingness to invest in a night, in an evening. So long story short, people were not always willing to pay for the service and the quality. So that was a bit difficult. I mean, at the end of the day, we made it. We made some adjustments, and yes, it was very successful. What were the adjustments? Just don't do more than you're being paid for. It's like you can't do six lobster presses a night. Yeah.

1:10:33You just can't. Yeah. So you can't do three salt bakes at the time. We were willing to do that, but like, you know, because, yeah.

1:10:50just have another sip of that so so then the restaurant's going to get it working yeah what's the so you've gone from this period in your life where that you don't even you want to block it out you want it to shoot yourself you have march the 15th where you have the renaissance of andre you're now thank you mate you're now so mate look sorry just pick up This is the Statshirt cake. Brilliant. We'll leave the others out for them. That looks so good. Mmm. Oh, yeah. Thank God. Where's this from? What are they called? Leto. Where's that? L-apostrophe-ito. I think there's loads of them now. I think I got this one from the one on Piccadilly.

1:11:38Oh, no. There's one in Knightsbridge, one, I think, in Soho. want and they're all over the place Chelsea mmm that's delicious um yeah so then so then the restaurant's going what's what you've what does life feel like for you then is the world brighter you say it's also very stressful here's the thing you don't think about alternatives yeah you've said that quite a few times yeah describe that you like it because that's your path you no longer wonder what could have been could have been should have been doesn't does no longer exist that's your path yeah that's what you want to do there's no you don't have any doubts about that that is your purpose in life a bit closer yeah but then obviously then you are hit with the hammer of reality what it you know what is gastronomy talk me about the hammer of reality It's as much fun as it is.

1:12:32Yeah. Unconventional. This is the working. It's just the work. I mean, it's like within those five years I had the restaurant for, I had five days off in total, five days of holidays in five years. First year, so first nine months, I was working seven days an hour, seven days a week. Yeah. 15 hours a day. And then you just sort of segued from the restaurant being a construction site into a fully operating restaurant. And then you just continue. We were open six days a week. I was working in 15 hours a day. And then on Mondays, which was a day off, I'll do admin, pay bills check delivery notes stuff like that so I wouldn't work 15 hours on a Monday I'd probably work like half I'd say 8 or 7 what's the fun of it you said as fun as it is at conventional bro here's the thing yeah restaurant wise there's so much that can go wrong and so much that can go right but there's this one special time I had my restaurant I had my flat above the restaurant so I could take the staircase behind the toilet guest toilets just go upstairs and just relieve myself this is a very special time when the restaurant is packed normally on a Friday or Saturday it's around the 9pm yeah sure no it's go for it.

1:14:20Yeah. About 9 p.m. Yeah. That's when most of the orders are in. The time of friction, the bottlenecks, potential bottlenecks have been sorted because you have that first seating, second seating and shit. So between 9 and 9.30. So I would go up, take a wee. You could feel the the vibe, the, the, the base from the music upstairs and you open the door, you go downstairs, you open the door, you can, the restaurant is booked fully booked, you know, full to the brim. You open that door to the, uh, to the guest room, you know, to where the guests are sat. You open it, you get this wave of delight, happiness, content, bliss just come at you.

1:15:19The music is no longer muted through that fire door. You open it. You can hear people, you know, you can, you feel the vibe of those, of couples chatting to each other, groups engaging in whatever it is they engage in, the conversation, talking about the food, talking about whatever. you see your your you know you see your maître pressing pressing a lobster uh your sommelier is pouring wine you see the the the runners are bringing the food out in time that the food looks spectacular you know the the the sauce has a multiplied and yet bubbling claudia could do it don't ask me how but she did it and everything is blissful and the and the restaurant levitates.

1:16:07Wow. It's levitate. And it's, you're just levitating along. And it's, I'm getting goosebumps right now. And obviously I would have a couple, you know, I have a few in by that time anyway. But it's those moments you cannot describe, you cannot understand if you haven't lived through them yourself. And you probably won't if you've, you have to be an owner, it has to be your restaurant. I'm fully convinced of that. Yeah. everything you're saying you can't experience it from a consumer perspective from nobody not even not even a service or staff perspective yeah everything is working out you levitate with the restaurant you levitate and it's nirvana it's gastro it's you know people are getting late tonight you know there's going to be traces of coke on the toilet it's going to be you're going to sell your finest white burgundy I was big on white burgundies which you say you know in all of just a lot of people's you know the consumption is like what happens at my restaurant because it's it's not a big white burger is not a big thing it's i love that shit but anyway um oysters are being shocked uh the food is going out nicely i know i'm going to get a lot of shit from cloudy at the end of uh the shift but i also know that i have a favorite bottle of champagne uh chilled and i'm going to sort of yeah uh i'm going to bribe her with an aquel smooth and quell her anxieties.

1:17:33Anxiety, yeah. Her official kind of... Belligerent nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know that your sous chef is going to... He's probably out having a joint, having a spliff. But you know that the moment he comes back in, those starters are going to be banging. And just then you walk up to your customer, to the tables, because ultimately people want eating out. How do you use it? It's not about the food. It's about the entertainment factor. Well, it's about the story. It's all about storytelling. So what Osh says is from the Devonshire, and that's one I know you do know, because of the wonderful Guinness.

1:18:11But he says, there's a few things. So hospitality is you're creating, he actually says you're in the retail business, and your product isn't like picking up a coffee. It's a story and an experience, which is then traded with your friends. Yeah. and I'd love to know how you as the host, as the commandeer of this bliss, nirvana, wondrous experience, how you, as you say, you open that door, the sort of overwhelming waves of music and joy and happiness, but how do you sort of commandeer, almost orchestrate? The ether is filled with joy. Yeah, but how do you like sort of prod and poke that and allow that?

1:18:54Well, that's the thing. That's what happens before the service. Part of the planning, part of... So what were some of the things you would do to make sure this nirvana would happen? Look, that's the thing. It just happens. Yeah, but what were you doing? It's like virality. It's like you try your best, and then if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, you live to fight another day. But what were you putting in place to try and make it happen? Day to day, just working on the little cogs that keep the machine running. In the beginning, it was a shit show. our soft opening was a shit show because dude I hadn't I had no idea how to run a restaurant I had sort of intent with you know I'd worked at a friend's restaurant as friends mother mom's restaurant to just learn how to take orders and deal with guests how to you know punch in orders through this till system, how to bring out food, how to just like, I had no idea how to like properly wrap a napkin or how to place cutlery properly because, and again, I had kitchen training, no training in service.

1:20:09So luckily again, I had an amazing head waitress

1:20:19who came from a ridiculously rigid establishment, Michelin star, you know, the white tablecloth, very stuck up and stuff. And she was lucky for something else. And I was like, listen, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. Can you help me out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was like, I've been working in this gig for like 15 years. You're the first boss who tells me that he doesn't know what he's doing. He's actually a proactive RC fan. I was like, look, if I can't, I mean, I can fool you for just, you know, only I can only fool you as much, but at some point you're going to figure it out and you're going to leave me worse off.

1:20:59So what's the point in pretending? Okay, let's take it step by step. So first few weeks I was taking lessons from my staff on how to fold napkins properly, how to place cutlery, how to hold a bottle when serving wine and things like that, how to set up your working stations and things like that, how to take orders, how to speak on, how to talk on the telephone. How are you meant to talk on the telephone? Like what's the art of... Yeah, it's like how to say no to customers because in the beginning you're like, yes, you try to oblige and just squeeze people in. How do you say no to customers? Well, sometimes, If someone calls you at 6.30 on a Friday night asking for a table for 5 at 7.30, you have to tell them, listen, no.

1:21:55It's like, you can come in. We'll do a second seating at 9.30 or whatever. Or if I know the people, I'll be like, do you know what? The kitchen's going to kill me, but come in just before 10. Things like that. And things like that. So if you don't know how to organize and take reservations and you inadvertently create a bottleneck, everyone's going to pay for it. Customers, because they're going to be dissatisfied by waiting and extending a period of time for the table to be set. But your kitchen is going to be slammed with orders at the same time and then and obviously your waiting staff because you know they need to they need to communicate and get things organized as well on their end don't they so yes things like that and it took me about a year to figure things out what's the difference so what i find fascinating is you work both sides so you've worked in the brigade in the kitchen yeah to shortcut your question people they're in the kitchen are supposed to be in the kitchen they're not supposed to be in the Yeah, but what's the difference if like almost backstage, front stage?

1:23:14What's the difference? It's organised chaos, really.

1:23:21You have to watch your mouth when you work in service, but that facade drops the moment you enter the kitchen to pick up the order. Right. Yeah. That fucking gun. Really? Yeah. You're a little bit closer, mate. Yeah. But it's like, people in the kitchen don't really want to deal with people, with clients, with guests, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I'm just trying to work out how you move from the underworld of the brigade in the kitchen and this cantankerous clattering, then you move into the bliss and the nirvana. That's such a lovely... So when you have that moment of nirvana, That transcends both sides.

1:24:07But if shit's going on, both sides suffer, right? You can't have a happy service and a dissatisfied kitchen. That doesn't work. Dissatisfaction is contagious. So it's either both sides are happy or both sides are unhappy. And there's a lot of friction because, you know, if the service got something wrong, So if they place a wrong order and then after the kitchen has to get them out the shit like rectify the order There has to be a lot of goodwill between both parties. So luckily I You know time that they work very harmoniously with each other especially the girls They could which is really weird because you know who would have thought but the women would really they would really work together sometimes and then

1:25:07You know, one would mess up the order and then walk in the kitchen and say, listen, Claudia, I fucked this up. Just so you know, there's a ticket coming. There's going to be a problem, this and that. Can you? And as long as it would be handled, you know, well, in an appropriate span of time, it would work out well. but sometimes things just get lost. And then the kitchen will be like, what's happening? And then that's when they clash. How do you solve? You don't, you let it play out. There's no time to solve anything. Is there an example? No, you let it play out. And then at the end of service, when hopefully minds have cooled down, you just talk it out all the next day before service, or preferably after service.

1:25:59but during there's no time to talk during service absolutely not no I love I just love talking about I could talk about I was planting in restaurants fucking for days I'm obsessed with it and it's really fun is when you when you I took my mum to Fallow the other week and we had like basically one of the most wonderful experiences ever and it is that kind of from a guest perspective that almost Nirvana like experience where yeah cheers yeah yeah crack on me yeah This looks interesting, this one.

1:26:35Mmm. More cake. More cake. What is this? Oh, that's an Italian meat. Strawberry. Is that Napoleon as in the French? I think so. Why is it called a Napoleon? I have no idea. I'm reading a book about Napoleon, actually. Okay. Fucking interesting guy. There's one way to put it. There's one way to put it, yeah.

1:26:56Oh, that's strawberry. Fucking hell. That's nice. Mmm.

1:27:02Mmm.

1:27:05Yeah, so then what happened with the restaurant? Crying servers in the cloakroom. I love that. Crying servers in the cloakroom? Mmm. Why? Because we could be very mean to one another, couldn't we? What was the meanest, most egregious thing someone said to each other? Well, no one would obviously say anything mean to me because they couldn't, which is a disadvantage. Yeah, definitely. But it is what it is. But sometimes I'll be pretty mean to, especially in the beginning. Because, mate. You'd be pretty mean. Mate, end of the month is coming up. Reservations are low. I have to pay my mortgage. I have to pay my rent.

1:27:47I have to pay my workers. I have to pay my suppliers. I don't even think about paying myself. And then, I mean, it sounds...

1:28:01but it's not what it sounds like literally there's not enough money to pay yourself so you think about it you just want to get that you just want that exposure to that bank exposure minimized that's all you can think of that's all you think about um and then they do something really stupid or sometimes actually i do something really stupid we've talked about and then they're Like, what's the most stupid thing you did as a boss? Oh, my God.

1:28:32So many things, mate. Yeah, but I'm just learning, because I'm now managing a small team, and I'm a...

1:28:43Mm.

1:28:48Reprimand. You're an employee in front of other employees. don't ever do that I did that what's the ramifications? well they don't like it and that's a grudge people will hold on to yeah and it's really bad and it's really bad parenting on my end yeah it's something I'm not proud of but you know um I mean now I'm really chill but if you haven't met me 10, 13 years ago when I had my restaurant. 10 years ago. Dude, I was boozed up every day. Fun story, 2016, I sat down at the end of the service. I think it was like around New Year's. So we're running down the, we're telling down the booze, the wine.

1:29:45A really good wine list. I started with seven wines because I had no idea about wine. But I was lucky enough, again, and luck is my business plan, to fall in the hands of an amazingly talented gentleman who became my wine mentor and supplier, and he would take me to France and introduce me to the Grand Chateaus and everything and take it step by step because he saw that I was a keen alcoholic. That went well. and then it went from seven bottles of positions on my wine list in month one to 20 odd in month three and then nine months in we had 127, 127 all French, 127 different wines on the menu.

1:30:39There were some really, really nice ones among those and I really got into the habit of... How many bottles of wine would you do a day? So here's the thing. We did the math and in 2016, I think I must have drank around 1 ,000 bottles in that one year. Good effort, son. Yeah. That's the heaviest I've ever been. About 99 kilograms. I never reached 100 kilograms, which I should have pushed. You said you're super chill now. Oh, yeah. Like, how did you become super chill? I sold the restaurant. You sold the restaurant. All of a sudden, you're no longer in, like, six-figure debt. It's a nice feeling.

1:31:20And what was the, because you know that period of time when you feel like you're almost like, you feel like you're frothing in your own bubble? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, come on, you don't see, and here's the thing. First year and a half, I wouldn't leave the restaurant. So I become a hermit for a year and a half, two years maybe. I wouldn't see people, no friends, nothing I miss. It's three of my best friend's weddings. I think I missed a funeral or two. Yeah, fuck, yeah, my grandmother's funeral. Just so many things. I don't know. It's like if I closed a shop today, and to be X thousand amounts of pounds or euros in opportunity cost, where am I going to take those from?

1:32:02I can't. I literally can't. Not to speak, not to mention customer dissatisfaction satisfaction if they can't get a reservation or if they show up and the restaurant's shut. You can't do that. So how did you end up selling it? So you sold the business? I'll get to it in a second. So two years in, I kind of start developing something close to a social life where I just leave the restaurant at say after so like not after midnight but say 10.30 and meet up with mates and at that point I realised the restaurant had grown the name of the restaurant had become bigger than myself and all of a sudden I told people especially in the local sort of gastro community they would know who I was and everything so that was kind of nice the status Being accepted.

1:33:02I wouldn't call it status, but it's just like, you know, just basically being part of the gang. Yeah. Yeah. Rite of passage. Yes. That was lovely. And then that was, yeah, that was lovely. And then we just kept growing until a point where we realized the restaurant couldn't grow anymore. Because bear in mind, we're a restaurant where the average spend was 90 euros per head. Now, to put that into perspective, 90 euros in Germany equals to 190 quid in London. Because in Germany, paying money for food in Germany is akin to skipping the queue in Britain. It's regarded, spending, indulging in food is regarded as a frivolous act.

1:33:49So why is the German food scene so abysmal? It's not abysmal. being abysmal would suggest that exists. There isn't a food scene, it's bullshit. All the top restaurants are subsidised in one way or another. No, it's just like, I don't know. Why culturally? I don't know. It might have to do, it might be a knock-on effect or like a linger effect from the harsh days of abstinence after the war. So after the war where people couldn't eat? Yeah, it's like, you know, I remember my father would tell me like even up until the 90s, people would like bring sandwiches from home to eat for lunch instead of going to the canteen.

1:34:28And already like food in Germany is unbelievably inexpensive. I went to Berlin, which was wild, but the fucking kebabs there are so banging. Like with the focaccia, like it's like - Yeah, yeah, the pita. And then the sauce is like proper spicy sauce. Like, I don't want that bullshit, like, quasi-chili sauce. I want the full, like, spat-around-the-face chili sauce. It's... They're brilliant. Why are the kebabs so... Are they invented in Germany? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the doner kebab is not a... Yeah, but how did that come about then? I think in the 60s, I have no idea. In the 60s, they started, the Turkish immigrants started offering kebabs on this gyro-type, you know, rotating skewer.

1:35:17But why were the Turkish going into Germany? In the 60s? Yeah. Germany was like the biggest economic wonder in modern times. I think in 1954, 5, the economy grew by 24%, the Wirtschaftswunder. What? It was ridiculous. There was no workforce in Germany. So they had people, the first wave of guest workers, immigrant workers, came from Turkey. Was it not ravaged after the war, though? Yeah, but fucking Germany back in the day is not as complacent now. They were working. They were putting shit up. My father told me, I remember him telling me, he's like, first time he went to Germany was in the late 50s.

1:35:57He was like, there was no rubble. There was no nothing. They already had put up high rises. We're talking less than 10 years after the war. Yeah, because the war ended in 1945. Yeah, and they were just, they were going at it, mate. They were just building a country from scratch. ridiculous effort yeah ridiculous yeah and there was a an acute shortage of labor so they had a deal with turkey i think so yeah yeah turkey then there was another wave of i think portuguese greek italians and former yugoslav i don't understand there is you've got this influx of different cultures yeah and don't get me wrong the british foods i can tell you why it's not germany does not have a real city yes berlin may check tick some of those boxes berlin's like you need an

1:36:53you lack you lack the critical agglomeration the critical concentration of people it's spread out yeah it's very yeah you need you need you need critical mass for a place to become really multicultural in a culinary sense where yes where cuisines into you know mingle and where and you need disposable income and here's the thing disposable income is not the same as um deliberate spending the discretionary spending because yes in germany ostensibly people make a lot of money. But don't forget, the highest taxes in the world in history are paid by the German. So how do the taxes... And then there's very little money left.

1:37:45And then priority goes towards discretionary spending items such as holidays, cars, et cetera. Yeah, I was going to say, is that how the Germans spend their money? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So there's very little left for food. And then... And here's my take. is my theory. After the war, so I grew up in an immigrant household. My father was, I mean, he had his own business. My mom had her own. What were the businesses? So my father was an architect and my mom was a dentist. So they were both self-employed, working all the time. So they brought in my grandma from my mother's side to look after the household.

1:38:25And she would cook two meals a day, but at least two different dishes per meal. So everybody would be happy. All right? So the food I grew up with was very traditional, homey, comforting, amazing, but home-cooked. I've never been to a German household of any of my friends. I grew up in a very German neighborhood. I consider myself, mentality-wise, more German than Serb or Croatia or whatever. What's the difference between Serb and German mindset? In Serbia, it's like Southern European. It's like it's more Greek, Italian. It's more outgoing, a bit more.

1:39:07Let's call it creative. In the vague approaches of life. For example, in German, it's like very organized, orderly, et cetera. It's very rational. Those two things play out in your creative process. Yeah, it's the battle of the two wolves that live inside you. No, but anyway, so, and whenever I would go to my friend's house, I've never, there were never home-cooked meals. A home-cooked meal would be a frozen pizza and then top with something, like with an additional topping. But it's always either deliveries or ready meals and stuff. And funny enough, do you know who invented the modern kitchen?

1:40:07It was the Frankfurter Küche, the Frankfurt kitchen from the 50s, the modular kitchen. What were kitchens like before that? And more classic. So you had those wood-burning stoves and stuff like that. Yeah. Traditional. And people very quickly, and then, you know, women joined the workforce. Germany was very, very liberal. So you had both parties join the workforce, which means more disposable income, but less time to cook. and then again Germany is very the German mindset is very is geared towards efficiency so what's the most efficient way to make to get calorie to optimize your calorific intake ready meals Knorr, Maggi Dr.

1:40:56Ötke ready meals ready puddings those pizzas are delicious though they may very well be but the thing is there was no need to learn how to cook at home that's the thing But then the Germans have a great sense of humour as well, though. They do. So then, but then, I'm just trying to understand, like, if there's no real sort of hospitality to restaurant scene. Not hospitality, but there's, so would you go to drinking halls? Mm-hmm. Like, where would the sense of humour and the, there is a hilarity to the German way of being. I really don't know. But it's a good sense of humour, isn't it? Oh, it's hilarious.

1:41:30It's not as dry as the English, which I must admit I prefer. The English sense of humour, I fucking love it. Yeah, yeah. But the German sense of humour is very compatible. Yes, it is. It really is. It really is. Well, it's... Yeah, it is. It is that subtle, like supple difference, but they are very compatible. the um so talk to me about um what i want to kind of pardon the pun swim into now is the fish chameleon stuff oh shit that was uh quite the leap yeah that was yeah i jump around the because you're the uk's first fish chameleon well technically i'm one of 250 german fish chameleons i just happen to be the only one uh outside of germany are the only fish chameleons in Germany or is it?

1:42:24It's a German thing. I think they're actually, yeah, it started a few years ago by a company called Transgourmet. So they did a collab with the German Chamber of Commerce and they created that certificate of fish sommelier. Basically it's the same thing as a wine sommelier. Yeah. So you learn everything. I mean, do you see those folders in the corner? That's all the shit that had to. God, that's proper fish homework, isn't it? Drill into my brain. So what are some crazy stories or learnings from fishes? Or about fish? To me, there's nothing crazy. You have to be more specific. I mean, I slap fish for a living.

1:43:07There's nothing crazy. That is crazy. I love that. But yeah, you know a lot of fun... Top up. Make another tipple. Yeah. Do you mind just passing... The, what I was going to say is, yeah, but you know lots of interesting facts about fishes. Like, talk to me about that. Like, not necessarily. It's mostly, this is going to sound so cumpty, but most of the stuff I really knew because, here's my origin story is, first I wasn't, then I was. Then three years on, I was just. First I was, then I wasn't. What do you mean? No, first I wasn't, then I was. Then three years, I was just vegetating for the first three years of my life.

1:43:49Yeah. I was born in 1981. This was German humor. It doesn't always translate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a feeble attempt. No, but so I must have been three years old. I was on holidays. What was then Yugoslavia, Croatia. Yeah. And my father took me to this festival, local festival at the local marina in Croatia, you know that which was on an island yeah I was sat on his shoulders and we approached a oyster shucker like an oyster store and the guy you know the the fishmonger whatever he shook open an oyster handed over to me and he just splashed some lemon juice on top of it and you could see the mantle mantle edges contracting what's the mantle the mantle the mantle edges okay yeah i like those little filaments yeah around the body of the oyster the outer the outer skirt if you will and uh upon contact with the lime juice it'll just react to it and contract i was like oh nice it's moving i have to eat it so i ate it i devoured it it was so fucking delicious and this is what kind of jolted my consciousness into existence that was my first memory of in life and then that very same evening we we continue walking down the uh the pier and i was um like a fishing fishing boat um by by the pier and the sailors the fishmonger sailors fishermen they were grilling mackerel over vine embers and basing them with rosemary twigs and olive oil and garlic and they i think they must have sensed what a greedy little fucker i was so they fed me a mackerel i was like yeah i dug in and that was it and a couple days later our neighbors taught me how to fish with a hand line so i was going for i was fishing for gobies blennies um selima porgies you know the lsd fish and um the other one the bogues and annular bream and white bream and stuff like that and i was fucking hooked ever since i was three it was all about the only problem yeah i was like oh yeah you were born to do this i was fucking born to do it yeah now i go back to germany and i'm just being miserable and there's no fishing going on in three years three years old this is your calling well not even your calling it's like no it's it's it's deeper than that and then it's like you had that that that period of sort of darkness where you wanted to fucking shoot yourself.

1:46:35Yeah. And I feel like when people don't align with their actual purpose, it can cause severe depression in people. Yeah. And it's a wonderful story because I've got friends who've, you know, like, who are going through that sort of period of not knowing, you know, what their thing is. And it's wonderful that you found it. There's an author called Paul Graham, which basically he says, you know, there's four, well, fucking six billion people on the planet, right? He says, I think it's around that. I'm not some sort of... Well, fuck knows. There's a lot of people. Well, anyway. Yeah, there's a shitload of people on here.

1:47:14But he reckons, he founded the Y Combinator, which was a big... They sort of, they started Dropbox, basically backs loads of funded Airbnb. And he says, he reckons there's 300... I'm not going to just splash these out. We're just getting to, this is mine, this is yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All good, mate, yeah. He reckons about 300 ,000 people in the world actually find the thing that they're meant to do. Are you sure about that? Yeah. That's a very interesting... Yeah, he's written an essay on it. Depressing statistic. Well, but also incredibly liberating and great gratitude. Is he a one of those?

1:47:51Yeah, that's why I think I'll always try and work my fucking tits off because I'm like, I found the thing I'm meant to be doing. um so what this must be some overworked tits yes yeah definitely they really are they're like others mate the um yeah so see so you then in terms of fish sommelier stuff like what are some of the like lessons i think you can learn from anything what are some of the lessons you took from that Most of the regulatory stuff. Right. You don't really care about, like, you know, EU fishing, fisheries regulations, history, or where, you know, certificates, which is the Marine Stewardship Council, Aquaculture Stewardship Council, sustainability issues, you know, the politics sides of things, which, you know, are kind of interesting now, but I never really.

1:48:54I've thought much. No, I've thought about much. Hmm. But you've got, you go to everything. You've done it with fish biology. What? Talk to me about fish biology. Hmm? Talk to me about fish biology. It's fun. It's very helpful to know where things are when you dissect a fish. Yeah. Yeah. They look good. They look good. It's a bit scant, isn't it?

1:49:31I think I put in the right amount. I'll take that, yeah. Fine. Right. There you go. Voila. There you go, Mr. Matt. Oh, just in time to pick up your first slice. Happy days, boy. Happy days, mate. Alright. Alright, chop chop. Which one's this? Oh that's the honey cake. Best for last. I mean, I think. Mmm. It's quite nice, I think. Yeah, really good.

1:50:10Oh, where are we?

1:50:22is anyone actually going to listen to this whole podcast like is anyone really going to listen to me rambling on about whatever it is for two hours yeah you'd be surprised mate i mean i can't listen to myself and i'm really good at the you know the inner monologue but okay No, it's great, mate. You're an amazing storyteller. Oh, thank you. There's, I think you can learn from anyone. Yeah, so tell me about the fish biology, because I think you can, what are some of the lessons you could take from that and apply to other things?

1:51:02I have absolutely no idea.

1:51:06Because I started cutting fish before I did that. My fish, so many things. So in terms of fish biology... So in terms of cutting the fish.

1:51:20On a very basic level, all fish are the same. It's like, evolutionary speaking. You have to ask me, the problem is, I don't know where to expand on your question. question go wherever you like that's the thing i have no idea because this is like a an extremely broad it's literally how long is a piece of string question i've no idea where to latch on like which hell uh where to start the the the the the thread the thread it's impossible for me you have to be more specific it's because there's it's there's so many things running through my mind ask matt how interesting it can be to get me to find the beginning of a thread yes yeah yeah no no Okay, so maybe let's start with what's the most interesting fish to you?

1:52:09You said they're all the same. Okay. Oh, the most interesting fish? Yeah, and why? It's going to sound super corny, but whichever one I have in front of me, or under my blade. No, wait. Most interesting fish. I can only speak for those fish as I've... I've dissected.

1:52:40There's something fascinating about salmon and salmonid fishes, the way they're built. Because they're hemospines. So if you imagine the vertebrae, the central spine column. Yeah. You've got the hemospines that go up and the neural spines that go down. Down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it the other way around? No, it's there. So they end before. So you've got the sort of the ridge, the back of the fish, and there's a bit of meat in between the ends, the tips of the spines. And with most fish, sometimes there's extensions called pterygophores, like let's call them extensions that connect the spines to the dorsal fins.

1:53:42Now, salmon have a very, very short dorsal fin, and these pterygophores, they don't exist or are very, very shortened. And the spines, they don't reach all the way up as with persiform fish, perch-like fish, like sea bass and etc. So it's quite tricky in the beginning to align your blade in a way that you don't miss out on your meat or end up undercutting the spine and then fuck up the fillet underneath. I don't know, I think that kind of, I found that a bit pretty fascinating, but not because it's actually fascinating in and of itself, but it's because it was the most difficult fish for me to learn how to fillet.

1:54:23So it's the biggest challenge. The easiest fish is Pollock, I find. Pollock is so soothing to fillet. It fillets itself. Yeah, what does, I love talking to people like about butchery or like fish pottery. Like, what does that, what does that give you? How's that useful when you, that feeling, filleting a fish, how's that useful for you? How's it useful for me? Oh, you switch off. White. It's meditative. It's my happy time. When you fillet, unless you're filming for wretched. I'm just kidding. Yeah. But when you're at work, mate, 6 o 'clock in the morning,

1:55:05just 20 crates of fish I have to go through. Love it. Really? Yeah. In the blistering cold, I don't care. It's so much fun just to go through it. And just every time, once you then turn over that fillet and you see the result, and then you see that, that. Um. What's the word I'm looking for here?

1:55:32that positive when you realize that you didn't fuck it up that satisfaction yeah the satisfaction of the result is it like cathartic yeah absolutely so when you fold over that fillet and you see that everything has been cut so the blade did glide through that section of the fish the way it was posted you're almost like a closed state wow what you said earlier you said so much fun you said the topic's so broad like you don't know where to start yeah why is the topic for you so broad because it is it's anatomy it's the same with humans I guess if you ask a doctor a human yeah yeah um so you've only learned about sort of the anatomy of it you haven't learned about like how they act in the oceans or how they work together?

1:56:30No, that is too species specific. Right, okay. No, we did not really talk about that. That's something, that's very interesting, it's very interesting that you asked because I've never even given it any thought. But that's something you would want to discuss with fishermen. Mmm, mmm. Because you need to know, you need to understand how fish behave if you want to catch them. Yeah, let's go on to fishing then. Let's go on to fishing. Oh, and this is my true passion. Right. So this is all for show. This is what hopefully is going to allow me to buy myself a secluded island. Tell me why. With turrets and machine guns and everything.

1:57:09So no one can approach it. And then I can just use it for fishing. When was the first day you fished? I was three. You were three? Yeah. Talk to me about that. Call to Blenny. Gobi. It's like a hand line. Yeah. Tiny hook. Baited it with some bread, threw it at some little fishies. I could see. I mean, come on, I was yet big. And then they took the bait and I pulled them out and that was it. Ripped its head off and threw it back in. And then why, like with fishing now, how does that play a role in your life? When do you do it? Matt, do you want to answer that? No. How we had the pleasure of meeting.

1:57:49What? How we had the pleasure of meeting. Where did you guys meet? City? No, Farlows. Yeah, Farlows. Where do you live? Sorry. No. I don't say where you live. Above where the stablish come. The oldest fishing stablish. Which is where? Farlows. Literally down the road. What is it? My good sir. I'm shocked and appalled that you haven't heard about the hallowed whores of Farlows. Majesty's purvey of fine fishing goods. I've never even heard of it. It's a fishing shop. Right, right, right.

1:58:29I was expecting this big grand... It's pretty fucking grand, but it's a fishing shop. It's a fishing shop. They sell fishing equipment. They have rods and flies and baits and stuff like that. So you guys met there and then you took me through that. Was I sober when I first came in? Bit closer, bro. Was I sober when I first came in? I can't tell if you are. I think I can't have been because I left it with a very nice piece of kit that cost me a pretty penny. Fred sold it to me. He's good, Fred. He's one of his. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fishing is...

1:59:16Fishing is ultimately the meaning of life. Because? Because it is what it is. Don't question it. I am questioning it. Well, no, it's like you go fishing, that's it. That's where your mind is at rest, at ease, at peace.

1:59:32Yeah. I've never, I don't think I've ever, I don't think I've ever fished. You may want to keep that for yourself. This is not the time or place to mention that. I've just mentioned it, mate. These are kicking in. So how often do you go fishing then when you're... Well, that's the thing. after I sold my restaurant 2018 oh right long story short the restaurant was doing pretty fine pretty well but I couldn't grow the brand anymore yeah just sort of it was limited to you know to its market and I had grown to a point where I couldn't grow anymore and it wasn't enough to create another restaurant and I'd always wanted to come back to London It's where I always felt I should be.

2:00:21And then, so I got a really decent offer. I sold the gaff. And I went on a one-year sabbatical. Amazing. Yeah, just to chill. And literally, that's when I... So basically, that's when I picked up fly fishing. I went to Slovenia twice. And it was, yeah, it was loads of fun. But I spent, I think that year, spent about 250, maybe more, days fishing. Wow. The majority of which, the majority of it, on the River Rhine. So the Rhine River is the second largest river in Europe, after the Danube. And it runs through Dusseldorf. So if you're Dusseldorfian, your soil is inextricably intertwined with the Rhine River.

2:01:11And not too many people, well, now there's more fishermen, I mean, more anglers. But the Ryan was declared biologically dead in 1986 after a huge industrial disaster in southern Germany. A chemical plant exploded and killed the entire river. All the fish. Yeah, the fuck. And that's when, and this is the cool thing about the European Union. The French, the Swiss, the Germans, the Dutch, they got to go, so we have to protect this river. From now on, there's going to be draconian measures if you don't have in-store filters. They just implemented loads of regulations to clean up the river. And now, 30-odd, 40 years in, almost, 40 years on, they started introducing salmon.

2:02:10I caught a 70 centimetre wild returning sea trout. To you, as I can read off your face. Means fuck all. Means fuck all. You've heard this. You've caught fucking. It's more impressive than going out on a date with prime Kate Middleton. I take that for sure about Kate Middleton. And I really think she's stunning. so yeah so so what is why is this why is that fish so revered it's all fucking they almost fucking went extinct it's like you know salmon shad they all went in yeah in in what's the again I asked some dumb three-year-old questions right right so when you like what's the art of actually like easy in terms of like yeah reeling it in like how to well you have to well that's that's physics reeling it in is really physics What makes a good fisherman versus a great fisherman versus a world class fisherman?

2:03:15Luck. Luck is your business plan. Luck is my business plan. No, but you have to think like a fish. Fish are just like humans. They're fucking lazy. They want to put in as little effort into getting their bellies full. If it's too hot, they will be looking for shade. They don't want to swim against the current most of the time. there are obviously big exceptions. Generally speaking, you always just have to ask yourself, depending on the species and the time of day and water levels, where would I be if I were that fish and I were hungry? And that's what you base your assumption off as to where that particular fish might be at that particular moment.

2:04:02And then you find the right, you know, you look, you search for it in different water columns and with different baits and stuff and it takes a while to figure it out but once you figure it out it's just like it's more mechanical and then it's all down to luck and then once it's on the reel on the hook sorry yeah yeah uh that's no that's really physics so the luck the luck is down to how well the fish has taken the bait so if the hook is set properly yeah do fish have feelings this is fucking dumb absolutely not no and i don't think they feel pain so they can tell me whatever they want i mean they're the jury have you read much i have caught i don't need to read to tell you one thing if you catch a river perch this big yeah these monsters about 25 years old yeah river perch like that and i've caught river perch with disfigured mandibles and their neural, the cranial area, whatever.

2:05:08It's like they have scars and everything's just messed up and battered and beaten up. How does that happen? Very simple. Sometimes they hunt for little fishies and in that hunt, they just hit against a stone. It happens. You know, fish are not, I mean, they're not a lot more intelligent than people. And they don't care. What about dolphins? Not a fish. But here's the, but no, it's, that's an, it's a mammal. But here's the main argument why I don't think fish, I think, I'm not certain of it, but I don't think fish have feelings. You're shocked by fish. Yes. Here's what fish, here's why I don't think, really fish have.

2:05:51Feelings, yeah. No feelings, but like a few pain, or at least differently. When you have an ox, do you know those ox rings you put through their noses, snouts? Yeah. Nose, yeah? Yeah. So the whole idea is when you pull it, they feel pain and they won't retract. They will just be obedient. Mm-hmm. Right? Or any other animal, you put a nose ring through. Yeah. It's not going to resist if you pull it. A fish, once it grabs the hook, is going to fight like crazy. Do you think any living being is going to fight if that point of resistance is causing pain? Oh, hell no. Fish just goes on. If you see a fish that gets bitten in half by a shark, they just swim on and nothing happens.

2:06:46If you really feel excruciating pain, you either start spasming out or whatever. you don't you you change your demeanor i mean fish don't have facial expressions like they have the only fraction of uh the the facial muscles we have but uh still something would happen in their demeanor doesn't we'll wrap this up shortly mate i just love love speaking to you it's such a joy you're an amazing storyteller but the um well are you wrapping this up yeah we'll finish shortly the i just want to where are you trying to take this thing i have no idea how far however far i can what's your ambition though oh rule the world rule the fish world no honestly um basically uh what's the thing uh

2:07:37tv baby oh that like oh yeah yeah that's but that's a stepping stone yes uh mainstream media obviously like Netflix, Amazon's like basically imagine, do you know Jeremy Wade? River Monsters. No. Well, you should. I'm going to be, you need to take me fishing. Basically that guy, definitely that guy's the goat. He came up with a, he came up with a format with a script for his TV show called River Monsters where, well, the subject is we fly around the world and catch the biggest fish out there. So he came up with the list And I think eight seasons in, it was very, very successful. They stopped shooting because Mr.

2:08:22Wade ran out of fish. He had caught all the big fish. And basically, he was like, well, shit, mission complete. That's pretty bosh. That's pretty gangster. And so imagine a weird crossbreed between Jeremy Wade, Anthony Bourdain, narrated by Jeremy Clarkson. That's where I see myself. So I want to do the fishing catch and cook thing. Come up with a marketable. Yeah. I mean, I'm already doing a little bit of catch and cook in my series. Like I say, 90 % is just pure cooking because you can't just very well go out there and catch a turbot in the Thames. But I do a little bit of catch and cook in my videos when I can.

2:09:04But that's sort of the goal. Mainstream media. So here's the thing. you know of Jacques Cousteau so I think in the 60s he was the one who pioneered underwater videography right so he so he he was an avid oceanographer he's just a an ocean nut French of course and basically he got his little boat after the war and started filming underwater stuff and exploring the seas. But in order to make his hobby sort of worthwhile, he made a commercial series of it and sold it to the tele stations. And it became an empire. So pretty much all the maritime sub-aquatic footage you see from the 60s and 70s are from him.

2:10:03He's Jacques Cousteau, the guy with the beanie hat. Mate, no, never heard of him. who's the OG fish whisperer? Anyway, so basically, he just grew a fucking empire so he can afford his hobby. And then he ended up making shit tons of money. And that would be lovely. He's fishing. There's an old saying,

2:10:28if you don't teach your children how to fish and they'll never have enough money for drugs. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the single, if you do it properly, it's by far the single most expensive hobby in the world. Like... Really? Golf is a joke. Yeah. If you want to catch your tiger species, I mean, once you get through the usual suspects and you want to catch this or that particular species on this and that rod. You need to get the flight. You need to fly. Sometimes you need a helicopter ride. You need to pay for the guide. You need days on end to track down the fish. Oh, shit, it gets really expensive.

2:11:20Or salmon. If you want to catch a salmon in Scotland, you better have money. If you want to go to good beat that's not over fish and that has a fair promise where you have a fair chance of catching a bloody salmon, that costs a pretty penny. Mate, let's wrap this up. Sure. That has been unbelievable. Thank you, sir. I love speaking. You've inspired me to just keep doing my thing. I hope I inspired you to start fishing. Take up fishing. That's what I was about to say, mate. Mate, that was sick. thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much