The Unshakeable Toolkit for Fast Decision Making Under Excruciating High Pressure - Lottie Unwin

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

0:24Hello there people and listeners of the Hungry Podcast. I'm thrilled to welcome back the third time at Lottie Unwin. um yeah not many people have been on three times so um i've loved all our conversations have been super super insightful um lottie is founder of upworld formerly copy club um and brand hackers who help so many brands um just just kind of outsource marketing teams fractional marketing teams we work with them at islands um which is amazing ella's amazing James is a good mate of mine. James has been in the pod. And yeah, there is so much to explore. And yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited for this.

1:09My pleasure. And we're sort of maintaining a weird friendship where we only talk on live podcast. I know, it's quite me. It makes them more natural, I suppose. For sure. What I want to start with is Colombia. Yeah. You're off? You were just about to go? Yeah, in like three weeks, basically, which is going to be unreal. I did a mooch through LinkedIn, as I always do, and I read this by you when you were in Columbus saying, exploring other cultures is humbling and inspiring. I'm returned full of things I saw in Columbia that I want to bring to Upworld and brand hackers and also reconnect with the charity we work with.

1:58I'm super excited to get out there. What about Columbia? What did you learn in Columbia that you didn't expect to learn? Okay. So, um, there are three very different things that come to mind now when you read that post to me, the irony is I've got absolutely no idea what I was on about then. So I'll tell you what I might've been thinking. Um, one was the practical stuff. So whenever I go to different cultures I see new marketing new routes to market new retail environments that are different and are directly inspiring so in Colombia was all the use of WhatsApp was just fascinating to me so there's this Medellin city tour called Real Tours where you have a extended conversation with a incredibly high-grade WhatsApp chatbot that gives you multiple options asks you like what kind of thing you fancy doing on a tuesday night and you have a drop down menu and you say like i want to go partying and then it gives you like okay what do you want dancing do you want this kind of party and you have like you're basically getting like real time advice from this chatbot and this is for like a small tour guide company and it just blew my mind that that was possible and clearly they just had this idea found somewhere in upwork built this thing which to my brain i'm like well this is eminently affordable this is not a business was funding that I can't access.

3:19So if they're doing this, how do I do that? So there's a whole load of practical stuff. And also like in Colombia, there's a whole rental economy. So everyone has dishwashers and washing machines on the back of a motorbike and you WhatsApp the dishwasher motorbike and he brings you the dishwasher, plugs it in through your window, you put your load on and then you pay him your pesos and he drives off. No one has their own appliances so you like part rent appliances and that just blew my mind in terms of like how could that change our concept of ownership and what is this weird world where we all own a car why are we not co-owning cars why are we not co-owning appliances like just all of that stuff i find really interesting so there's like the practical stuff go on no i was gonna say no no i was gonna say yeah keep going basically yeah i was gonna say other than the practical yeah so there's the um some uh like work stuff in the sense of like that trip to columbia was a pretty big moving i think the first maybe the second episode i did with you was all about my breakdown and like mental health journeys that we've kind of been on together and um it it was you know i took three weeks out of my business and i kind of framed it as a sabbatical because I felt like I needed to give it a name but it was just a long holiday way of like I take my annual leave I'm director myself so no one has to tell me how much annual leave I can take by taking loans so it was I want to take some more because I think I need it and I think that this for me is part of the balancing act of running my own business and and I want to do it um so that yeah that like the act of being able to do that was really powerful and what about being immersed in another culture we talked i think it's i think the the two things work really well like the time out and space i think distract i read uh this thing by rick rubin the other day which is distraction is not procrastination so actually your long holidays and distracting yourself whether that's going daily like on a drive or going immersing yourself in new country for like a long time that is actually work it's just we need to get our heads around that that is work so there's that piece which is fascinating and then just being in a in a completely different culture which I can't wait to explore where you know people as you said nipping in with mopeds to get your dishwashers done um your dishes done what out of those two things kind of colliding together kind of the space and the difference of culture how has that changed the way you approach brand building and marketing back in the UK?

6:01I think space always gives you clarity. So I am better at my job if I'm able to be more incisive and hard align with the founders I work with on what their message really needs to be, what the stuff that they're trying to do that's just a waste of time it's like all of my job is about creating focus and to do that I need to have real clarity of thought and I think that's really difficult when you're in the grind um that's not so much specifically about that cultural immersion that's more just about like the act of being rested and having space and being able to see the wood from the trees which I think is like a huge shift I've made.

6:46Now I've like, I've really learned this year that my job is to make a few good recommendations and a few good decisions every week. That's actually all I need to do. And the more I try and send a thousand emails, the less good I am at those things. And what are the good decisions this week or in the last month, just to add some context to that? so i've had a founder's associate start which is part of this journey of like trying to simplify my life so that i can give better decisions it's an incredibly difficult role to onboard on like i'm basically asking someone to be telepathic and when they're not telepathic i'm like you're underperforming you're not telepathic and you know what a stitch up um and we've had to have some really good honest clear communication and to get to where we're getting to which is a really good place but for me to do that has required like a really open mind and and the ability to actively listen and to be really empathetic and to be really clear going into those conversations of what I want and so that's not an example of a decision but it's definitely examples of you know how in a 20 minute one-to-one I can have quite a profound difference on on output and I can either do that in a way that's like does have that profound difference or I can fudge it and it can just be a bit of a waste of time for everyone and and the difference between that is how well prepped and how able I am to be present in that moment that's really interesting because there's founders magic there's a sliding scale between founders magic and founders chaos within within meetings and it's like the founder can either have add a little bit of sprinkle dust yeah and and it and as you say like what it propels it makes the right decision less right decisions or the founderitis can kick in Giles Books was telling me about this founderitis love the way he says this yeah but it's like I need to do a thousand fucking things and it just it it really demotivates the team it's like oh my god yeah you just leave this like absolutely world wind of chaos behind you hi there guys super super quick one um I write a weekly newsletter called Hungry Friday Feast.

8:55It goes live at 8am every Friday. I'm pouring my soul into this bad boy. It's probably my favourite creative ender I've ever done. I basically pick apart all the biggest lessons, all the biggest learnings from all the wonderful guests and throw it into a feast or a newsletter. We've got over 1 ,200 subscribers. Come and join the party. I'm going to put a link in the show notes. It's right at the top. Subscribe. And if you are already a subscriber, please just forward it on to a friend. do the amount of favor it would mean the world to me anyway back to the old episode boys and girls maybe let's talk about the hardest decision you've had to make recently how do you make that decision because i think as a founder taking that taking that step back from being in the grinding that thousand details kind of thing all those thousand emails hundred emails taking a step back to make that one or two decisions that really have that kind of huge uplift how do you make really hard decisions yeah so all of my really hard decisions are about people and that's because because my business is all about people like i don't have a product other than my people and a slack group so i don't have a supply chain i don't have much tech um and because i find decisions about people particularly hard so i don't think i am ever going to be the kind of founder who takes any conversation around pay or performance or personal development or hiring lightly i like i care deeply about other humans and i don't ever want to get to the point where my soul is so hardened that i don't take that stuff home with me um so it's all people stuff and the way I do it um like I write it's like it's a it's a beyond in joke I will write a google doc for everything like no decision or piece of work gets anywhere in my brain if it's not a google doc and that has to start with the context so I'll always like force myself to articulate exactly what's going on then I'll go through the recommendations and I'll literally detail out the pros and cons and if there's like financial work to be done I'll do the model and I'll put the model in the doc and those docs don't really get read by anyone else like that's not work that I'm doing for the sake of anyone else that's how I make logical decisions and how I have real confidence that I've stress tested something and it's also for the paper trail for my own brain like I have the memory of a goldfish and I think pressure makes us all a bit short-sighted so I find it incredibly helpful to be able to go into a folder and go what the fuck was i on about like why did i why on earth did i sign off that thing and then i go oh okay because that's what you knew at that point in time and you didn't have this like whole other bit of context that you now have um and therefore you like made the best decision you could have made so the answer to how many decisions is really simple like i do the work the internal work is is what you're saying is as in that work.

12:02Yeah, but I like produce it as external work. I think other founders would be able to like, well other, it's not founder specific thing, other humans would be able to like walk around the park and kind of think it through. Like there has to be an output. Like I need to prove to myself I've done the work. Let's talk about changing the name as an example of this then. Yeah, yeah. From Copy Club. I think this is the best example to add some kind of - Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. yeah to add some meat on the bone to this changing your name when you're were you six or seven years in yeah at least i kind of lose track the founding of it all was such a mess that like who knows a long old time yeah long long old time in talk to me about the decision and i think i read someone linkedin you're like kind of paralysis like the sleepless nights getting down to two final names then going back like blah blah oh yeah yeah i vetoed that's that's that's that's a huge decision that's maybe one of the best decisions making let's talk about how you made that decision and we can talk about your process of doing the internal work but producing it like it's external work for your own self yeah um so december 22 years ago december a long time ago tim who's our head of community joined the business and in like week three we sat in leon and king's cross and he said i think we need a new name and i was like what and he was very clear he was like there's a problem with the word copy because everyone thinks you're just for copywriters and there's a problem with the word club which is that no one knows the difference between having heard about you on linkedin and being an active member of the club like you don't know at which point you've become a customer so um there were lots of people who were like yeah yeah i'm in the club and i was like would be like cool so do you go to the parties now like no i don't know about parties it's like okay you don't know about the parties because you're not a paying subscriber and therefore you're getting a different set of cons from us and therefore you don't know about all this stuff so there was a there's a there was a product problem um and i agreed with him and i sort of said like great let's go ahead and so he produced the google doc which is required for all internal decision making and wrote the brief and and we kind of did a bit of pushing forward on it and and then i completely lost my nerve and lost your nerve lost my nerve because there was so much evidence that copy club finally had brand awareness so yeah yeah so i had gone from years and years of like hi dan i'm lottie i run a business called copy club you won't have heard of us but this is what we do which is like cool all smiley but exhausting to finally getting on calls where people are like yeah I know what you do and the the feeling of like okay this is amazing was huge the follow-up would still be okay cool so are you involved no I'm not I'm it's not for me because I'm not a copywriter okay so I've like pushed one door but then the next the next wall is just in front of me um but the brand awareness just felt so like incredibly compelling and and the the name copy club albeit a name i made up in four minutes was about copying people in different categories it was never anything to do with copywriting and there was this meaning in it that i still really liked like i do still really believe in the power of copying with pride um and so we did all of this like copywriting stuff around copy cats and how we were going to lean into loads of cat metaphors i don't know where i thought that was going to go with but like we're on loads of decks about how we're gonna have those cat icons and then i was just like i can't i can't be talking about that credibly um and it just it just like kept resurfacing and we kept talking about where we want to get to which is you know internally we talk about a goal of having 10 000 members globally who have created this like secret weapon for startup marketers where we've all got this like incredible level of connection that means we're just disproportionately better at our jobs there was no way i was going to get to 10 ,000 members if everyone thought we were for copywriters so it just kept resurfacing as this like insurmountable problem and all of the other strategic problems just came after it was like there's no point in thinking about um whether our pricing structure is right because everyone thinks we're just for copywriters like every decision was like oh but there's this massive elephant in the room so it just became clear that we had to change the elephant in the room um and you know and then this there was many a document on the pros and the cons and the and the existential questions you know do i really want that vision do i want the hard work am i prepared to take what's going to be probably a difficult 18 months until we've rebuilt brand awareness of a new name am i okay with that or actually do i just want a small happy business where everyone knows what i'm talking about and i can like go to events and not have to explain myself so there's a lot of documents in that process what does the document look like and then and then what does it see you say it's literally context bullet points context you're right we need to change the name because no the context will be this is our goal we're committed to this goal um we've got good brand awareness um there's this recurring trial barrier around whatever it's like all of the stuff that's informing this and then there'll be an objective which is like the objective in this doc is to decide whether we're going to carry on with the work stream about changing the name or not and then it will be here are our options yes we should change the name no we should leave it another year and see what happens whatever and then under each of those options i'll be like what's the pros what's the cons what's the potential opportunity cost and then like what would i always ask myself like how would i know if this has worked so like what what would be true you know there's like different language for it depending on the situation but say i was going to leave it another year like what would i be looking for in a year to feel differently about this decision which is my point around the value of having this archive because you go back in and you're like like you have you have a paper trail you have to be held accountable to your own like historic commitments and it allows you to kind of sleep at night as well if it's like out your brain and it's exactly it's like it's like um gratitude journaling for dweebs well for decision making which is which is mad that i've got like so obviously i know you write loads and i write loads i have the same form although it's just fucking chaotic but on ever well it started is on Evernote and Notion but any big decision or negotiation I've ever had to do I'll write down but there's no like starts like it's just chunder and I'll sort of see where see where the blind spots are it's a process that would be really doing the work yeah actively doing the work and then what advice would you give people who are struggling with really hard decisions I didn't think we were going to go here but I just think it's super valuable like what is I would I am very here for the advice because I do not think I'm good at decision making and it's like a muscle that I'm really trying to train and I am practice um practice and a bit of self-care to be like some of this is gonna go wrong but I'm definitely I'm definitely not proud at the moment as a leader of how much I have to rely on my leadership team for support with decision making I I think I think the business needs me to be a bit a bit more clear one of the really nice things about my document structure is that it's always inherently collaborative because no one like everyone will know why i've made a decision and i'll share my documents quite readily so i'll put i'll basically pull out my working and say here's where i've got to and why and james may say i don't agree with you i've got this extra point of view which will change my thinking or he'll say like i've read through it and i get it so i don't i don't feel like i'm ever making dictatorial choices because i'm like bringing the team on the journey a lot um which in this in the case of writing and like changing the name was hugely important like it wasn't just for me to walk around the park and decide i was changing the name or decide what the new name was going to be i had to like get my team to co-create this decision but what's really what's really shrewd about doing it on a document on a piece of paper albeit online is that one you can write your decision without anyone else in the room yeah so it means that you're not going into decision by committee when you know you're going around around fucking circles but i should do this everyone wants to chip in there's loads of ego so that's amazing two the employees get to read it in their own time or the senior leadership team gets read it in the time set in their own time and digest it and then add their notes so they still feel they're involved three in these decision by committee meetings that i've sometimes you sat in is that people with ego kick in and they they kind of take over the conversation so when a decision should be made by five people the loudest ego wins so you know sort of two people make most of this impact impact decision the most whereas put it on this google doc everyone the introvert may have the most interesting insight and that can go on on this google doc and then everyone knows why i think it's really really really clever as i said didn't expect this to go so deep into this but i think is is fascinating what were some of the other names that didn't make the cut like what were the ones where you were like oh there was some there was some really funny ones um well when we were in the like we said we did a partnership with an agency called frontier who were brilliant and were real like real sounding boards like it was a proper partnership they were doing the rebrand sorry so they did the yeah they did the thing they helped us with the strategy behind the rebrand because tim and i basically just realized that which is the irony of this is that i do this work for other brands and i just had to completely admit defeat because it was like rebranding my own face like i was so close to it yes i just could not even begin to fathom a different world and the point ironically i actually did like the the the name what like ironically a lot of the thinking was mine and i say that with no ego but just because like i was thinking about this all the time so i was coming up with this stuff but i still couldn't have decided it was right without this external expertise to like help me validate it and almost like provide me a hundred other options so that i had real confidence in my own um so they were really helpful they um in one hilarious meeting proposed that we were called boost jam which was like the internal project the project became like the internal project it became called project boost jam and for a long time um that was just some that was just really weird stuff but that's part of the process and then i was in a i was at a founder's retreat in a queue for the bar chatting to a mate of mine about what i wanted to do and i was changing the name and she said well tell me about what like tell me why the business exists and i said that it was for me it was all about helping people move up in their careers and that that was like practical and emotional and it was like about that feeling of rising and doing that together and she was like so it's like up club and i was like yeah but it's i mean literally this was the conversation but the club is part of it but there's this like worlds of expertise that we offer which is more than just the club and she was like so it's up world i was like yeah cool who was your mate and what was the festival uh she's called ashley she runs an amazing business called more happy um which is coaching it's it's incredible it's coaching made accessible because they use coaches who are qualifying so it's 40 i think it's now 40 pounds a month per employee for unlimited coaching and the coaches are training so they're doing their free hours before they qualify which is how it can be like a totally different cost and actually to your question earlier of how do you make hard decisions coaching is incredible for that and i think more happy is a great resource because you can just book an hour in someone's diary and they will be a sounding board for you for an hour to help you through that thinking and where was the festival um i'm part of a community called founders and it was in south wales is that the do lectures it's very near the do lectures which i also went to this year it's been a year i've been very busy drinking beers in fields it's really hard life you've got your own festival as well which we will come on to yes uh so talk to me about talk to me about talk to me about do let the do lectures um david's been on this podcast yeah super inspiring guy yeah what did you learn about yourself because lottie going in to do do do festival yeah sorry uh do lectures do lectures fucking out late late last let yeah yeah uh to lottie coming out how did you change what did you learn yeah um i learned i learned that i don't like lectures so i love i know this about myself i don't know why i had to go to a thing called the do lectures to learn i don't like lectures i love um meeting new people i love um having space outside of london and away from my laptops that create connection and i'm inherently social and i get loads of energy from other people love all of that do not love sitting in a barn for long days listening to lectures and I and I knew this I hated the university but it was this funny moment and like 10 a.m of day one where I was like huh so the do lectures are all lectures right uh so yeah that I think is just a I think it's just okay to know what you don't like and I really took I really took that away from that and then actually shaped the weekend based on that so had a really incredible time basically not going to many of the lectures and spending an awful lot of time catching the people on the hay bales who'd also decided to like take some time out and reflect or finding someone to go for a walk with like i just get all the value from the conversations around those key events and i find that any like i really am not big on those big conferences or any of that stuff i find it all like the keynote speech vibe i just is not the way i learn hey guys absolutely buzzing um that mckenzie jones were extending their partnership with hungry so gassed um in case you have been living under a rock who are mckenzie jones they are fmcg recruitment specialists they work with some amazing brands lucky saint real superfoods hunter and gather and purdy and fig also with some of the big poppers the big boys the big g's pepsico unilever campari i've known billy for yonks paul for the last year he's a top bro they're just super kind and lovely and they're just dedicated to our wonderful space our wonderful industry of buccaneering challenge of brands and that they're so much more than recruitment business check out the podcast because you're doing them it's epic um i've even even introduced mckenzie jones from some amazing brands and they've really helped them scale if you're looking to hire just reach out to them have a chin wear get in touch do yourself a favor thank you guys are you ready there is gonna be some absolutely totally brilliantly bonkers next level madness coming your way today are you ready to take your brand to a whole new stratosphere for free imagine connecting your product to a digital world through a simple smartphone scan you know the drill scan it bish bash boss you're away that ladies and gentlemen is the magic of the new gs1 powered qr codes these next generation barcodes act as a gateway to a world of endless possibilities they connect your product's unique identity to multiple online sources of enriched real-time content why why on planet earth should you be getting your mitts on these gs1 powered qr codes well look very very simple mate gs1 will help you drive revenue upsell and cross sell your amazing products boost your bottom line boost your bottom line yes please where do i sign enhance customer engagement look delight your customers with dynamic content that captivates and keeps them coming back for more more more please sir can have some more yes you can comply with regulations so that you want to be building your brand you don't want to be knee-deep wading through a deep river of legislation aggravation these barcodes allow you to stay ahead of the curve look don't allow this beautiful boat of boundless opportunity to sail away into the malting sunset be on that boat join GS1 UK's free pilot program today yes it's completely free there will be a link in the show notes thank you so much there's a less delicious lesson that in brand building is like you can have the main thing but actually a lot of the the magic is all around the outside it's the little touch points whether that's literally like a lucky saint can like i don't know i've got one here but like the the here's what i made earlier yeah here's what i made earlier the the the lucky saint is the main logo but the the little ladybird they've got there is like a little thing but just add those moments of magic i think what you're saying is do lectures not the lectures but the actual the moments in between the magic in between the moments moments in between the moment yeah and there's a huge thing around community building and how you build communities around brands which is like facilitating space is different to delivering content what's the difference so you're literally lotte's teaming up perfectly today it's like i don't even happen to interview just everywhere everyone's going to go you're just like yeah yeah yeah so um what is an example okay pure sport have a run club i'm obsessed with the pure sport run club at the moment where pure sport cbd socks i don't even know what they sell the point is i don't know what they sell but i know about their brand and i have an emotional connection to their brand i actually couldn't even tell you what the product is i know they have socks because in their tiktok there's a lot of reference to socks so um pure sport have a run club loads of people get together often sorry my google calendar is going wild um get together to go running and they like have this huge rich sense of community from from that um they are not just producing educational content about running and like in a really simple sense what they're doing is creating space by saying like let's just turn up and go for a run and therefore connections between their members between their customers and turning them into community members as opposed to delivering stuff from a stage and the do lectures understands that in that like the programming is yes there are the lectures in the day but david knows that those are those are like only one part of our emotional experience it's like the band that's after supper and it's the choir that's singing while you have drinks and it's like beautiful flowers on the table at breakfast it's all of those bits plus the fact that you're just guaranteed to be sitting next to someone amazing that makes it so great so i want to talk about community building from a brand perspective um and actually the guys i interviewed yesterday are my good pals local local beer really interesting category because it's the brand's called local like l-o-c-o-l so so what works on two fronts it's basically like um low calorie beer low avb beer as well um they they work the local works on two fronts it's a bit of a play on words obviously like local in terms of the low calories they make it with local breweries but they want to build a community around the brand they think they've got the guy was a designer for ab and bev did work like the branding looks amazing it's absolutely gorgeous but they want to think how do we build this moat in this community um and what they were talking about what we were teasing out last night is okay what beer brand those are healthy beer brands of like lucky saying which they're doing a great job um there's a few others are trying to own the run club a kind of occasion so they'll sponsor run clubs which is great but like local don't want to be that and what we kind of came up with and this is this may not even come to fruition but i think it's just a good lens to explore this with how to build communities as brands is they were like well why don't we support um comedy clubs james used to work in comedy no one's there's no real beer brand to own comedy there's obviously we could do local comedy nights we could get a big uh comedian on board the whole pushing the benefits instead because they don't want to be like a worthy low calorie beer because i don't think people in the uk are really going to make that switch because if it's you know it's such a boozy sort of like blokey industry beer traditionally they want to kind of target more of the female audience one but two the way they think they get the lever they're going to pull is like drinkers not for low calories drinkers to get less binned obviously that's not the tagline but like in a comedy club it's like well you you'll actually enjoy the jokes you remember the jokes like and what we're talking about yesterday is you know my brother went to a gig and got smashed he couldn't remember it anyway that's just to give you some context i would love to go what some of the questions they've asked me to kind of ask you is how to actually go about building a community i suppose the first question is how to know where to go with the community do you start with right we're going to own comedy clubs or comedy um or we're going to do running or we're going to or is it okay to try five six seven things like right at that beginning of a brand when you're like yeah i've got 10 stockists how do you do this okay so the first thing is that you need to get very clear on the i get so grumpy about this but like the definition of community and owning a community so grassroots comedy is an existing community you're not creating a community you are sponsoring one you are like attaching your brand to an existing community and you can pay to have the right to do that and you should do that and that's a um that's like a marketing strategy that makes a lot of sense that's slightly different to uh like two other routes so the other route is that they say we want to create we want to genuinely create our own community we don't want to take part in someone else's community we want arrow to do that you need to focus single mindedly on what you are giving your members that they're going to connect about that has nothing to do with you so a community is a self-organizing beast an audience is you saying come and watch my comedy show the community only exists if the brand is able to disappear so i'm really proud that if I stopped organizing.

34:29If my team disappeared from Upworld, Upworld would continue without us. People would carry on asking questions and carry on offering to support each other and carry on giving talks. That would continue. And that to me is a huge source of pride. And so if you want to do that, you need to start with what is your audience, what do your audience need to connect around and how can you facilitate those connections and the answer is not a specific low calorie beer the answer might be they want to talk they want to connect around comedy in the morning because they want to like rethink about this in which case you start doing like breakfast you start hosting breakfast comedy sessions and you give them the option to do it and then you say to them like go organize your own like this isn't our thing this is your thing like we're building a community it's like you can't control a neighborhood the neighborhood is its own beast the mayor like facilitates and looks after that but he doesn't he doesn't orchestrate it it lives on its own what's the other route well the gap in the middle is kind of the pure sports run club thing where you create like branded vehicles so you could do a whole load of locale comedy shows and you could put them on so you're not sponsoring someone else's comedy show you're organizing your own you're created like you're creating like a branded property that is sort of creating community but there's no there's no vision that if you didn't exist it would live on and could you try try all because i think what you said there right beginning about you know being really clear on what type of community it is could you try sorry for sounding dumb here could you try all three or do all three amalgamate into one so So could you do like a breakfast for your diehard fans who love comedy in Hampstead Heath in the morning?

36:18Yeah, of course you could. In the evening, sponsor Hampstead Heath's, or Hampstead, not Hampstead Heath, Hampstead Heath's, Hampstead's comedy event. As in, do they amalgamate? Yeah, they do. They do. But if I come back to what I was saying about like holidays giving you clarity, my like holiday clarity brain would say what are you actually trying to achieve and therefore let's do the stuff that's going to help you achieve that quite specifically so if what they're trying to achieve is brand awareness within a really tight target market you're probably better off just going and sponsoring a load of existing comedy stuff that's probably the cheapest fastest way of getting reach and and testing affinity like that would give you quite a clear sense of okay we've done this for six months how do you test affinity sorry um really good question it would depend on how you're setting it up so you could just you could just survey numbers you could be like right we're going to do for six months we're going to sponsor an event every month at this pub and then after the last pub the last of the six months we're going to stand outside with clipboards saying like are you going to buy this brand we could start flyering after the events and see if it converts to sales or even to traction or interest like are those people going on to do something or think something about the brand so fascinating because i think you're right there's a massive difference between audience and community yeah and and actually the role and there's no right or wrong and this is what i say we were talking about yesterday there's no right or wrong to brand building um no but i go like you just got to know why so i run a course called the startup marketing accelerator which is to help like heads of marketing get ready for more like senior marketing managers get ready for heads of roles and all of it is just me wanging on about why you're doing everything what is the specific brand challenge you're trying to solve so are you trying to build brand awareness are you trying to change brand perception so is it that loads of people have heard of your brand but they think that you're not relevant to them or that you're just for lager lads or like whatever the problem is and then or or is it that you need to find a really cost-effective acquisition channel and therefore you've got to get something that people talk about and actually you want to like invest in a small audience but what's really important to you is that that audience go on and tell other people because that's what's in your commercial model all about the why and then the this is such an interesting metaphor because it's like okay the brief is to get low cal into comedy clubs there are 50 different ways you could do that all of which would have a slightly different outcome and the question of which is the right one is only answered by really understanding what the point of it in the first place is boimi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale boimi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger boimi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollie's ollie's been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using boemy to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy duff is coming to podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage the team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using boemy look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland hi guys super super quick one so so excited look for years i've been badgering on about hungary the podcast you're probably bored to death thanks for putting up with me but hungary is also an agency and we look after one amazing brand called ireland's chocolate we've had a great time over the year we've won listings at a load of wholesalers we've won milk and more we've got our first grocery listing coming very soon which is very very sick but what i'm thrilled to announce is hungary's merging with hc consulting my boy Harry Clark and his wonderful team he's an absolute G they do brand strategy, new business business and account management but why I really love working with Harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is Harry was actually the founder of the boozy, isolated brand Pops he's been in the trenches he's grafted his face off, he's had the sleepless nights he's had the turmoil, he's had the triumph he knows what it is to be a founder he is a founder and he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home holy moly dips the gut stuff savile drinks remio gelato so if your brand and you're you're stuck you're looking for like new business help you're looking to scale drop us a message we'd love to chat thank you so much back to the old episode this is a massive generalization so like just to just set the set the tone there but in in brands going from zero to one million retail sales what do you think that the why should be should it be brand awareness should it be um perception should it be community yeah um it depends on the route to market but assuming that you want to be a retail brand yep until you have physical distribution that is meaningful and therefore like it is easy for me to find you there is fuck all point in brand awareness because there's i I could be fully aware, but what am I going to do with that awareness other than march around London looking for this beer?

41:40Or maybe if I die hard, buy it online. But that's a pretty niche. I think that's limited to relatives, investors, and people in the industry. And then obsessives. I think it's quite hard at that early stage to get people. Definitely category obsessives, but you've got to have a really clear, you've got to have a really good reason to buy something specific on the internet. um so if you want to be retail it's all about distribution if you want distribution you need to win over one person which is the buyer and therefore you're writing everything you're doing is about how you get on that buyer's radar and how you present them something that feels really differentiated so if you want a really sexy slide that says we're going to grow awareness of this brand by scaling our amazing work with grassroots comedy great sponsor one event get your mate who runs a pub to let you do it don't pay them anything take 500 photos from 10 different angles and imply that you're doing this nationwide sponsorship campaign don't actually do it until you've got the distribution and then spend the money instead on taking the buyer to a comedy show like yeah it's it yeah it goes back to why why are you doing this on what stage what they actually they've just gone into the into the co-op soup you're like this nice they um they they called up the buyer in the part of the call and carper base up in manchester yeah oh what's your local boozer you go to afterwards like we're gonna need to have a pint it's gonna be a long day end of the pitch they go oh by the way we've brought our local to your local they had two massive kegs they had it on tap and they got all the buyers there i mean it's just they're really crazy yeah really clever but it's but that that almost is because they i was with them last night having dinner in um near you at near your what you're actually like jolene place i don't know if you've ever been to jolene really good yeah where's my inline dan you're down the road uh yeah and they were they were talking about this like oh which what do we do and it's going back one step do you think in terms of this decision making the paralysis they're having is not nowhere near to the ninth degree of you having to change your name but they're like okay should we do comedy or should we do um should we put our um marker down on on health should we put our marker down on gyms um marker down on smorgasbord of different things in that early stage how does that work do you throw stuff on the wall do you yeah it's really it's really hard question um i'm doing some consulting for a business at the moment that's got no idea if it's target customer no idea if it's brand identity and no idea of what the category is going to be and so i'm just like basically just going around cerebral loops in my head driving myself insane and this feels a bit like that i think there's definitely a filter of okay what is the role that this product is going to play in someone's life um in this case it's going to it's going to uh replace a existing beer consumption moment or a consumption occasion that's like connected to beer so i'd quite quickly be like i don't think gyms like the gym and then going straight for a pint thing isn't that isn't really a thing it's like an it's like an edge case as opposed to like oh everyone goes for a pint after their workout in which case I'm like eliminate that health feels like a red herring and then you almost get to like a you have this then diagram of what are the occasions that make sense for our products and then what what are the things that we want to be known for as a brand and that comes from like founders authentic identity or their sense of what the insight is they're building this business on and then that would get you to a bit of a short list and i think comedy is a really interesting one because like i am literally going to best or green comedy club tonight and i'm not drinking and it's like that is a genuine problem and i think the comedy industry like that you know every every comment every comic who's given up booze to my frustration just does a set about how they've given up booze because the fact that you're not drinking in that industry is funny that's not a joke that's like not food for thought so i think that's your process and there's probably others it's probably like darts you know like what where where are these untapped boozy occasions with no no alcohol-free bit is owning it's like rooting itself in that subculture yeah really really smart and then and i always believe there's there's there's dormant categories like dormant categories and dormant kind of communities or cultures to tap in dormant categories the obvious one is like is oat milk though dairy oat milks like that was the crusty section of a you know exactly and now that's kicked off it's gone huge tin tuna that's the one i'm obsessed with yeah yeah i keep wanting to quit my job and start a fancy tuna brand like john west sleeping giants here there's a company called sea sisters who are based near you actually on that he was a chef at saint john on i basically premiumized the packaging looks gorgeous yeah which is they do tin fish challenge a brand of tin fish oh my god can you hook me up I've honestly been obsessed with the fish category you'll be able to get it around you because their base is in some way love that I'm banning the word better in any marketing content I approve better than what better why better says who why are you banning the word better what's wrong with the word better Just tell me why.

47:07I just think it's shit. I think it's not. I think, okay, I'm trying to think whether there are exceptions to this. If you know that your consumer really believes that there is an inherent problem in the category and they are actively disgruntled, then better might work. but most of the time we don't know that what we're experiencing is substandard we need to be shown that there's a better way that we couldn't imagine so to a point on oat milk no one was going into oat milk thinking well this is a substandard oat milk experience they were just buying the crusty oat milk and then someone comes along and says look we've raised the bar in oat milk this is what oat milk could have been for you and that suddenly feels really exciting but the proposition there isn't just we're better it's this is what makes us good and what makes us good needs to be presented in the context of what's bad so we're working for a condom and lube brand at the moment called rome fascinating they make high-end lube category dominated by durex and own label um rome is about twice the price on shelf beautiful packaging in theory a better product and the the like the incoming hypothesis was was just better than durex and of course you want better and you want organic because it's like deeply intimate and you wouldn't put loads of like pva glue on your face so why are you using it when you're having sex it's like when you put it like that i kind of get it but but you but you can't just go into that category and say this is better because no one is actively dissatisfied with the status quo.

48:55They need to be explained that there is a new promised land. They need to be explained as a new promised land. So how? How? Tell me why it's good. It's good because it's made from all natural ingredients that are sourced from stuff that you would cook with. And tell me that Durex is bad versus my competition, which is made of a whole load of E-numbers and stuff that you'd never put on your skin. um tell me it's good it's like longer lasting mimics natural wetness like what are the what are the things that someone cares about in that category and prove to me that it delivers against those don't just tell me it's better and ask me to work out why oh my god i am so so so excited it feels like hungry is finally swimming in the big leagues i can't believe this it's absolutely mental but delighted to announce that big fish yes big fish are part of the podcast perry's been on the podcast three times listeners absolutely love it some of my most downloaded and cherished episodes of all time.

49:51But Big Fish are behind literally so many brands in your cupboard, in your weekly shop. Charlie Biggan, Year Valley, Tyrells, Clipper T, Goo, Rana. I mean, make the list longer than the River Nile. But they also share risk and invest in brands that they really believe are a force for good. They're brands that they believe are going to be the next big thing, like Howda, the snack that gives back. But even more exciting news, big fish want to speak to the next wave of small challenger food and drink bad is that a death sim for big things the raconteurs the movers shakers buccaneering visionaries so look if you want to speak to big fish and just have a chat get your brand in front of them then drop me a message my mate louis from local beer amazing beer was in their office aka la fishbowl uh last week chatting to perry freddie and the big fish crew so drop me a message if you would like to speak to i've got a thing of like the market doesn't reward better awards different because every every every man and his dog says we're better we go to the buyer saying we've got we're better give us more distribution we've got a better taste we've got a better boom and actually i think if you're different is is the new promised land we're just we're singing off the same hinge sheet maybe just different kind of tones and volumes but it's the same thing in terms of when when you're different you just you just cut through straight away um yeah and a way to be different is to be meaningfully better so you can be better but make it meaningful and substantiate it it's the language by meaningful as in like i am significantly i'm gonna last five times longer i am three times more sustainable i am made of this versus this brand that's made of you know i'm made of x and this brand's made of y that's that is that is telling me that you're better but proving it as you do so what really gets me is like the word better used in copy because it's just like either it suggests like a real lack of faith in the product because the marketing team have been like please explain to us why it's actually better and everyone's be like i can't and so they've just gone to print it's like they've gone to print with that or it's just like it's just like a lack of interrogation and a lack of understanding a lack of insight into like what is the what is what are the perceived problems in the category and what do people want?

52:06What brands are really exciting you at the minute, like underrated brands that you think are going to do big things? I actually really got a lot of time for Islands, which is the brand we have in common. I think what they are doing... So they're currently B2B, predominantly. Tiny bit of retail, tiny bit of e-commerce. I think that brand has a potential to be an absolute beast online. i think if they take their meaningfully better proposition which is we are chefs preferred chocolate we are that good and we can prove it to you because here is here is our history which is like we've been a we've been a cooking chocolate for a very long time and they can translate that into being like we're a chocolate gifting brand that is um that is not like better than hotel chocolat but is meaningfully better it's like has a completely different origin story i think that's huge so i think that brand is really exciting because it's it's not even scratching the surface of what it can become but we were both involved in the rebrand from different angles obviously kind of l's the link in between all of this but the the word in terms of that new promised land piece the word chef is is the new promised land yeah is that you know we're like we're better of chocolate better chocolate i looked at the original decks we were doing for retail it's a better but i was part of this problem but better better reframe chef's chocolate suddenly it's great british baking great british great british venue great british bake always get those two confused that is kicking off like huge why the category is so far behind if you look at you look at the category there's like 10 fucking flowers um bags of flowers so i think the chefs the reframe of chefs is the new promised land i think in terms of i get excited because i go So if you try the pity fours, they do.

53:55No. Oh, my days. I've been badgering Wilf about this, saying, mate, we need to get these into retail because everyone buys chocolate for a dinner party. We sell them into the Michelin-style restaurants in London. Like, go to Heston at the end if you get a little chocolate with your coffee. That's ours. That's Ireland's. But I'm like, no. You go down that aisle in Waitrose, it's that Godiva or that Gillian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The shells. it looks so weird brand but anyway i'm like that is right right that is right that's one of those brands that like as soon as you mentally engage brain with you're like they're weird fat squashy shells yeah with white well yeah yeah yeah i mean i remember i remember going to like a school trip to belgium and getting like bear chocolate and i got scoffing my face on the on the bus but i think yeah i think that's really interesting i think um the other bit which for to help us for listeners is is with the new promised land piece is make it really clear if you're going to say the new promised land is chef's chocolate make sure that like the journey is really clear on how you get there and by this i mean like the the packaging or the vehicle to get there is really clear which is the packaging so we've gone from packaging that look like coffee really super all over the shop to tins super premium and gives you the ability to go to go online i think that's yeah and you guys have been instrumental in that so thank you but yeah i just think if we've got the positioning right and we've got baby steps into one out of three channels what you say copy club are sorry not copy now sorry no no don't worry upworld the brand formerly yeah okay well let's let's go back to that actually because we didn't we we almost um we ended up going to decision making which was super valuable copy clubs ingrained in me i've just said there faux pas apologies no no it's in me biggest biggest hurdles uh unforeseen challenges with the name change in the last six months or whenever it's such an interesting question like today so changed the name, had obviously written all the docs on how am I going to know if this is a success in a year, had not written a doc on how am I going to know in a month if this has been a good idea.

56:18So there's this weird period where I just had no, like nothing to hang myself on. So I said in 12 months time, we'll know that this has been a good plan because a conversion rate will be higher we'll have less conversations where we're told we're just for copywriters okay i'd got clear on that but i hadn't said to myself 30 days in what what needs to be true for this to feel positive so there was this weird summer where i was just like i think it's fine because no one's told me it's not fine but is that enough to make it fine like how do you know um i thought it had been really plain sailing we just done yesterday and today a sort of feedback campaign I've never done anything like this.

57:00So I posted on LinkedIn yesterday saying, I want help. I want you to tell me what's bad about my business. I think there's good awareness of Upworld, formerly Copy Club, but I think loads of people aren't juggling and I don't know why. And I want to know why. This is inspired by a chat I had with someone at a drinks party on Tuesday where they were just kind enough. An old friend of mine was kind enough to say, loads of people talk about it all the time. These are what I think the barriers are. It's just that that like really amazing thing where the kindest the kindest thing to do is to actually give someone the feedback and people just don't do it they're just it's just so much easier to be like you guys are amazing it's like great firstly I don't thoroughly believe you secondly it just means so much more if you take the time to articulate what we could be doing better so inspired by this I was like wonder what else people on the internet are thinking so I'm just going to ask them so I did that and then did a LinkedIn I sorry then sent an email to all of our non-members this morning saying again i want your feedback here's a type form call me write to me and tell me what we can be doing better and then i'm going to be slacking every single one of our members with the same question over the next week so it's like a big old campaign like we are getting a lot of data we've probably got like 60 data points already and they're like rich like long-form pros from people in our world telling us what they think and um it's still pretty confusing like the reality is a lot of people are like up world up club copy club like what the fuck is going on like that is fair i hear you and i think it's just going to take time i think i was lulled into a false sense of security that it was like i just all gone really well and that there was no implications to it and i think we've now got to live through a period of confusion where there's just like a bit less engagement in what we do because everyone's a bit confused and then i think everyone will forget the copy club is everything and we'll be upworld forevermore um but yeah we're in this purgatory yeah i appreciate the honesty as well the the when you said this so there's i understand there's upworld and brand hackers they're two different things did you say there's an art club as well or is that part of the confusion well this is part of the confusion so So Upworld is our newsletter, is our recruitment business, is our courses.

59:21There is then a product called Upclub that you pay a subscription to be part of. Right. But that architecture isn't clicking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've got to work out how to resolve that tension. Yeah. And what I noticed, you've literally just sent this out yesterday, but what's your gut feel about how you go about doing that? honestly not the foggiest and i'm a bit like baffled by it i'm trying to do really good best practice and like not go into panic mode get the data like codify the data and be like what are the recurring themes and then like solve the themes in order um it's obviously really hard to do when you're like pouring through these emails like it's really hard not to go into action mode um i don't know i know that it's the right decision like i know that the re and this is why because i wrote so many documents i thought so deeply about it i stand by the decision to change the name i know why i did it i am comfortable with the idea that there will be a purgatory period until it makes sense so some of it may just be a waiting game it might just be i just need to explain this 100 times until one i get the patter right two we get the copyright and three it's just become like we just built awareness of our new name um but then i think we'll probably have to do like we probably just need to review our communication and think think again about how we do it i don't i actually don't think anything will change from this i think we'll just tighten how we talk about ourselves well i like because what you said you said i know i know i know and i think for people who we kind of go back to the beginning we're talking about people who are struggling with making decisions is this internal however you manifest it whether it's journaling or a document external document for internal purposes that gives you the the courage of your convictions or convictions you know i mean and i think that's that's the hardest thing because a lot of people not a lot of people but with me i was in your situation i'd probably be panicking do you know what i mean as in just because i hadn't hadn't done that internal work deep enough yeah um which is which is super fascinating the how do you um with the brand hackers what are some of the i don't know again it's case by case point but what are some of the common things brands get wrong when coming to brand hackers and it's this is like to help people who may not even get get involved with yeah just um things people get wrong they i'm a broken record they don't know what they're actually asking for and that's not i do not need to be told we need this many emails written i need to be told what i'm asking for is you to grow my brand awareness by x percent within this community and i can help you get to that level of clarity um but they're quite resistant to that process so it's just it's people just hate closing doors they hate any we all hate any decision that says i'm doing this thing and therefore i'm not doing these things and so we tend to just stuff it all in and say we just want you to do like just you know all of our social and all of our emails and just like do all of our brand stuff and it's like we can that's going to be way less effective than being very specific about driving rate of sale in one particular retailer in a given time period and getting comfortable we don't have the budget to do that well and also become a household name so let's just do one job hi there guys thank you so much for listening as always means the absolute world to me before we jump into this episode i I need a really big, big, big, big favor.

1:03:11I have pitched to some massive guests, humongous guests. And unfortunately, they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough. Please, please, please just hit the subscribe button on Apple or Spotify or follow. Ultimately, it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations, equals hopefully better insights for you, which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well. So please hit that subscribe button and enjoy this episode. So I'm trying to grow this podcast. Yeah. I'm doing the community. Well, I don't know whether it's community or events, but doing events.

1:03:46They've won up in Manchester, had loads of people there. Haven't got like a Slack chat or anything like that to like kind of facilitate that. But communities are one thing or audience. However, I've already got the name wrong of how it is. In terms of actually growing it, I'm not really doing anything, just constantly posting on LinkedIn. It's basically the only thing I'm doing and relying on word of mouth. what things do you think i could be doing to build more depth one there's two two things i want out of this like build more depth with potential uh listeners and um listeners and community or audience whatever you want to call it and two then just like what are some of the things that you think i could do to pull gas in on on the growth and really push the message out there so just again this is where it will start to let's be really clear what you mean by grow So you want more listeners or you want the same listeners to listen more?

1:04:42I want incremental new listeners coming in. You want new listeners coming in. Cool. Do you care who those listeners are? Ideally food and drink founders. Okay. How many do you want and how quickly do you want them? Yeah. So this is so good going through it. happened to my brain yeah yeah yeah i mean i hadn't even thought of that like i mean i'm putting this right out my ass right now but like a hundred thousand just for the argument so you start with what i call a who inspired business challenge which is i'm gonna get a hundred thousand new food and drink founders who don't currently listen to hungry to listen to one episode of hungry by the end of june 2024 yep for example you get that statement down you stress test every bit of it like does it really need to be 100 ,000 if it was 50 ,000 would I get to the same outcome like why 100 ,000 what am I going to do with that 100 ,000 I'd be asking you know if I was like working with you I'd be asking you all of those questions to be like let's be really clear that 10 ,000 isn't good enough let's be really clear that you do just want them to listen to one it's actually not more valuable for you to have someone listening to the whole series yeah again say you get that statement you then go right okay so what that what that begins to do is give you some sense of indication.

1:05:58So if you want 100 ,000 new founders, I can tell you straight up that doing small scale events is going to be a really, really tough way to get there. Because it's just like simple maths, right? You'd have to do 25 ,000 dinners before you'd got enough engagement to get you to your listener goal, for example. So you go, okay, that's probably not my route. I need a route that's going to be about reach. So right, how am I going to find loads of food and drink founders firstly i probably need to look beyond the uk because 100 000 is pretty big like what's my market penetration how what percentage of uk food and drink founders would have to be listening for me to get to that number yeah it's like all of this sort of stuff that's that seems i looked at that there's eight there's 8671 i think food and drink small to medium size food and drink businesses in the uk fine so that's like you know that's that's a really helpful data point so you're looking for 10 times uk penetration like that means you've got to go global penetration what do you mean by that penetration like percentage of your market so if there's 8 000 in the uk and you want 100 000 in total you're you're not going to do it from the so obvious you're not going to do it from the uk so then you're like how many food and drink founders are there in english speaking countries cool does that give me a big enough market like all of these questions and as a rule of thumb like you're never going to get 100 penetration of anything because like shampoo has i'm going to get this wrong there's like 90 category penetration of shampoo in the uk so there's 10 of people who don't buy shampoo the same with loo roll there's like a percentage of people that don't buy loo roll so no product has 100 penetration of anything so you're not going to get 100 of the uk audience you might get 50 would be a huge stretch goal so to have 4 000 uk food and drink founders listening to it would be an amazing result that means half of all uk food and drink fans have heard an episode of hungry that's incredible so that's a more realistic goal but you do all of this stuff and then you just you begin to make you begin to think about right who is your audience and where might they be interested in podcasts so they might meet someone event they might see something on linkedin they might get an advert blah blah blah and then you work back from that and you choose your channels based on what your desired outcome is so like my back of an envelope answer to you would be you need to get really obsessed with how you go viral on linkedin because it's not about if you want scale it's not about being present on linkedin it's about how you make sure your linkedin is seen by new audiences how do you do that i know it's a million dollar question right viral content which is like a thing that i'm on a massive upskilling journey on at the moment um i've got a coaching call on after this just how you flip your content to with the intention of getting a thousand likes and therefore that's seen by a million people and your chances of finding your target audience are way higher but you need to do something different you need to change something in your formula to like supercharge your reach to your question on how am i going to pour gasoline over it stop pouring the same stuff pour something different that's so interesting and what have you learned about that i know because you've got to run shortly but just um what have i learned because also you've been very another question i got asked is from people wouldn't and then you are speaking to you today is like Lottie's so good on LinkedIn like what are her tricks of the trade so my tricks of the trade so so I've I'm at like a tip I'm trying to be a bit of a tipping point with my LinkedIn so so far for years and years I've shown up every day really authentically I've tried to be really honest I've tried to make sure that the first line is engaging and I've been made it really human i've put my face out there a lot and i've tried to say stuff that no one else is saying out loud just try to like be me that's got me this far i get 10 15 000 impressions for everything i post which is great i've got 21 000 followers amazing it's literally changed my business best best single best thing i've ever done was commit to linkedin it's not gonna get me to the point where i can triple my business it's not gonna grow like my pace of growth is slow and steady and I can map it out.

1:10:10I've got enough historic data to go, this is how fast it grows. This is how far it will continue to grow. If I want to change the pace of growth to my LinkedIn, I need to change the kind of content I'm putting out. So like you'll see me doing a lot of wild experiments at the moment. I'm in like full test and learn mode. So some like weird stuff coming out and I'm like asking the audience to kind of come along the journey with me. I promise I'll summarize it all when I've got a bit further down the line. But it's basically about thinking way more universally so I need anyone who sees my content to see some relevance in it not just my existing community to see relevance in it and that's that's what's going to make me go viral so I can't assume any any prior knowledge I can't assume you've heard of me before I can't assume you work in marketing I can't assume you're in the UK I can't assume you care about what I do I've got to think about what is generically interesting and what that will do if it goes to plan is create some viral moments where I will get 200 ,000 impressions which drives a whole load of profile views which converts into followers for people who are like oh this is interesting to me so it's kind of just like throwing a massive fishing net out every week or so and then like letting the people that are interested come in and convert and then alongside that I'll do content that carries on to just like tell my story and explain what I do and like build that relationship with my followers yeah it's fascinating it's like another it's another reframe look I know you've got a minute we can we can we can talk and talk and talk as always yeah we might have to get another one in because there's so much in that um and maybe even add it on to this because I usually like to go longer but we'll um that was amazing I'll let you run and um loved it we'll we'll catch up soon lottie cheers dan speak to you soon bye pal wait wait wait wait thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much