The Science of Chronic Stress, Grief & Burnout (and how to fix it!) - with Lisa Walker

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30:12Do you seek adventure and want to serve your country? The Central Intelligence Agency's Directorate of Operations is hiring. We are looking for individuals with a can-do attitude and a collaborative mindset. If you are looking for a challenge, apply online at cia.gov slash careers. See or clicking the link in the show notes below. What do you think the kind of myths or misconceptions about entering perimenopause and menopause that exist kind of like the old way of thinking versus, you know, what the new research and science shows? I think the biggest one is a mental shift because, you know, we've always, you know, you grow up thinking that perimenopause and menopause is old.

30:54So you've got to come to terms with. That's so true. When I was little, menopause was like a big deal. It's like, oh, my God. And we're not like that. Even you see people on TV now, we're not portrayed the way it used to be when I was in my 20s. You know, it's fun and, you know, we've just got to embrace being the amazing women full of joy and life that we are. So we're not packing things up. So the biggest one is mortality and ageing has been, you know, a big one for perimenopause. But the good thing is that people aren't talking about it now. So people weren't talking about it 15, 20 years ago.

31:41And you've got an influx of Gen Y hitting perimenopause now. And they've lived half their life on social media. They've talked through marriage and fertility and kids and they've lived that. And now they're coming into perimenopause. They're talking about that too. And that is brilliant. It's joyful. It's amazing because no one's going to put up with shit anymore. It's, you know, we want to find solutions. We want to live life. We want to have the knowledge. And, you know, again, it comes back to knowledge, having that. Absolutely, yeah. We have access to the toolkits before we even know that, like, that's the toolkit we might need.

32:27But there's more discussion and dialogue around all these different elements and aspects of the journey of life or, I guess, the experience of human behavior and what happens. And sharing. Community is the biggest part of flourishing in life. So sharing everything that's going on and understanding and having that feeling that you're in a community with other people is an absolute blessing. What do you think for you when, you know, going back to kind of grief and how you were processing grief in the early months following, what were the key things, including community, like that made a difference for you or how people showed up for you?

33:14during that time? I feel that I was more just taking control and that's who I am. I'm not saying that's the best way to cope with things, but my natural instinct in any kind of situation is just take control and move through it. And that's what I did. And it's not necessarily the best thing. So I don't know that I had a community that was really strong. I had some really great people around me. I mean, in the first 12 months, I moved house. I moved to a new, well, we sold our company. I moved house. I started a company. I moved my boys to a new school. Oh, wow. Lots of change. I did a lot. And that was what I needed.

34:07And the boys just had to go along with it. but they see now why I did all of that. And there was an element of me wanting to get away from elements of the life we were living that were unhealthy. And so I had to do that to move forward. That was the way I moved forward. And, again, everyone's different. But, you know, I think the next one was after I moved, I did my year of yes where I said I just thought I've lived in this darkness for a while and I was quite insular. I'd just moved and I felt closed down and I set myself a little challenge of I'm going to say yes to everything. So what did you say yes to?

34:55What are some out there examples? That's when I started pole dancing. That was one of them. Oh, okay. Yeah, so I did pole dancing. What are you doing with a pole dancer? I didn't know that about you. I feel like everyone knows that. Not well. Let's get one thing straight. Not well. I said yes to just little things. Like my first one was walking down the street and saying hello to everyone walking their dock. I said yes to every coffee that was asked of me, like, you know, new school, new mums. Yeah, I said yes to coffees. Someone invited me to a ball, like dress up and I didn't know anyone. And for me, you know, social anxiety, saying yes to some of these things weren't that easy.

35:37I went on a few dates, which I never thought I would do. And I bought a mini convertible. Okay. And I, everything, like all different things. And that was probably that first, I don't know, I felt like I was rebelling against myself. which was fun. That is fun. Yes, that was a year and it finished on my 50th birthday. Okay. And I had the biggest party for my 50th and it was at my new house and I had everyone that I loved come, you know, who'd been on the journey, for want of a better word, and part of my life. A lot of people have been all through my life and we had this big come as your alter ego party and it was.

36:28Come as your alter ego, Fadi. I love that. I was the absinthe fairy. Okay. You were an absinthe fairy. I was an absinthe fairy. I don't know too much about the absinthe fairy. She's fun. She's fun. People kept saying, oh, you're a tinkerbell. I'm like, no, I'm meaner than tinkerbell. Yeah, and a friend of mine paid for this eight-foot drag queen to come and perform for us, and it was crazy and fun and, you know, not something I ever thought I would do. And that was my end of my year of yes. And I think that's what set me on the path for all of this and the study. That's where it started. That was my next question.

37:09Did that year of yes change, you know, ongoing? Did that bring in kind of a ritual or behavior around really starting to think, you know, not always saying yes to everything, but being more open to different things or pursuing things that instead of it just being a little bit, oh, I wish I could do that. Or imagine if you were like, oh, I am going to do that. Yeah, absolutely. That changed my life. It's because I started, you know, I traveled. I took the boys to Canada. I've taken them to Kenya now. We went to Lapland. And I'm so fortunate that I could do that with them. But, you know, a few years ago we might not have done any of that.

37:49And so that was, and that's, again, when I started studying. It all came about because of that year of yes. It changed my whole focus in life, my view of looking at life, and it kind of just escalated. We got to the point where I would have friends. One friend sent me a message saying, I think you should go and have a snail facial. And I said no to that. But people got to the point, like my business partner, Kate, would say, I'm too scared to even suggest things now because I know that you'll do it. and that I would joke because then I had to put in a new rule that was yes sure I'll do it but you have to come with me because you suggested it oh okay that's kind of fun though it got a bit got a bit out of control yeah because I didn't tell anyone for the first six months it was purely a me thing personal thing and then I started saying oh I've just I've been doing this year of yes and And they're like, what?

38:46What? Let's do stuff. Yeah. Is there any like, you know, R-rated examples that you even said no to? Oh, not that I said no to. No. There was a few different things that I did. Yeah. Pushing the boundaries? A little at times. Pushing my boundaries. It's not everyone's, not other people's boundaries, but probably mine, yeah. Do you think that people listening who maybe have gone through, even if they're just going through a bit of a low, a low season, a bit of a shitty time, should they adopt the year of yes mentality? Well, yes. Of course I would say that. But you've got to do what's right for you and it can be a little thing.

39:35I think it's like everything I mentioned. It's not changing your life in some big, grand gesture or movement. It's all those little things that add up to change. And I think it's also the, it kind of like reinforces within yourself that you can do these different things and you can push your own boundaries or you can kind of put yourself out of your comfort zone and see what's on the other side, which is also kind of around, we've spoken about this before on the show. that notion of the cost of success is embarrassment. You do need to say yes, or just try a little harder and be prepared to fail and be prepared to be embarrassed, but see what's on the other side.

40:19And then one day you wake up and you're there. And I think a lot of overlap between those. Absolutely. I mean, even starting a business, the hardest thing for me has always been putting myself out there, like even doing this and social media. That was the hardest thing and I've got used to it now and I love talking to people now. Yeah. But it, that was really hard and that had to be part of, and it wasn't until someone said to me, oh, it doesn't matter because if someone doesn't like what you're saying, they're just going to keep scrolling. And if they like it and they're interested in what you've got to say, they'll stop and they'll listen.

40:55And I thought, oh yeah. Yeah. Why should I care? Yeah. You know, when I started the podcast, podcast I I mean my internal version of me is so like negative in a dialogue like very um internally shy and awkward but I can present as very extrovert and when my husband and I like in 2019 I was just starting to do this you know silly little interviews and he was like you just start a podcast and I was like absolutely not like I want to vomit just at the thought of you suggesting that. Like, I feel like I had an allergic reaction. I was like, God, no, no. Do you know me at all? But then the deeper feeling was that I wish I could do that.

41:39And I wish that I was someone who had the confidence to talk publicly to more than two people. I wish that I could talk on stage. And then because I had that feeling of like, I want to try to be someone that is that person and that version of what I would want to be. Yeah. Look where I am now, 700 episodes later. But if I had have let that fear just keep me down, I guess, all the things that are so great in my professional career that wouldn't have happened, like what a tragedy. I think it's so important to challenge yourself and to be like, but what if, and then take the step or take the action or say yes.

42:19And the podcast is good because it's one-on-one. So it's not that. But even that, I was so nervous about it at the beginning. I mean, I can get up and speak in front of a group of people on stage, but put me in a room where I have to interact with 30 people that I don't know. It's hard. That freaks me out more than anything. My mum used to say, my mum said that, we were talking about this the other day, my mum was like, it's just so mind-blowing to her that I have a podcast or that I'll go and speak in front of people or whatever it is because she's very shy as well as a person. But she said that I used to be the kind of person that would, the school would have to call her and have to come and pick me up because I wouldn't be able to stand in front of the class and do my presentation.

43:02I'd be crying or hyperventilating or something and then I'd have to come, mum would have to come and get me and take me home. And she's like, it just blows my mind that that's, you know, that version of you to like today you. That's a big change. Yeah. I know. We're crazy. I want to kind of get into more of the practical tools. And my thinking is that there are different tools when we're talking about grief and trauma at a certain level, and then the bucket of kind of stress and chronic stress and burnout, but there would be overlaps. So I want to kind of understand more of the practical tools that you've kind of adopted outside of what we've already touched on.

43:46And also kind of what the new emerging research is that is kind of like, you know, the present day. Okay. Do you want me to give you some ones to start with? I've got a bunch here that we can talk through. Okay. We can do it either way. I mean, it's just a really complicated one to answer because everyone's so different. Okay. Well, let's talk about you. Let's talk about you dealing with, we can start with you dealing with grief specifically and you know we've covered the year of yes but was there also kind of you know other things that you were doing yeah based on what your therapist or experts were telling you i meditate every day that has been big for me game changer what type i do vedic meditation um i can be a bit lax i mean i'm definitely not perfect the last couple of months i've gone through a renovation, final assessments, and it's definitely gone by the wayside.

44:46So I'm trying to get back into that again, but it's finding that ritual that sits with it. So for me, it's coffee when I wake up, sit on my balcony, meditate. Journaling has been massive. The best thing about journaling is you can just write whatever you want. Let's talk about journaling. I've only just started and it's been a bit of a challenge. The main thing is just... What do you actually say? You're a beautiful writer though. Oh God, not in my journal. Half the time I couldn't even read it. If you looked at the writing, you couldn't read it. It is just getting... The way I explain to people is journaling is a way to get out what's in your head without having to actually tell somebody.

45:27Yes. So it could be just a stream of nonsense. Right. And so it's fine to be just jumping from one thought to the other and this and that and this and that. Yep. Because no one's reading it. So I think of it as a way to just clear the noise out of my head to start the day. So sometimes you might have feelings towards somebody or be worried about something. and because you're thinking about it, it's rolling over and over in your head. But sometimes just writing it all down, it gets it out of your head into something that's tangible. And I know people who, you know, you can burn it after you write it.

46:12It doesn't have to sit there forever and it's not something to read. It's not something you'll go back and say, dear diary. It's just write it down, Get it out. You could just say, dear, whoever, I hate you today. I'm having the worst day. This is what you've done to me. Blah, blah, blah. You can just get it out and it's done. No one's going to read it. Feelings are so weird. And the narrative of, like, how we tell ourselves things is so weird. Because even you saying that, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I feel that I could write that. You have to allow yourself. Then I go back to feelings and, like, thought.

46:46when like that to me seems like, you know, quite because there's some layer of like, you know, whatever story I tell myself in my brain. That's so interesting. Rip off that bandaid and write it down. Yeah. Because it just gets it out there. Yeah. I did read recently because I was struggling with the journaling and I would set a timer of like 15 minutes to be like, I'm just going to build the muscle first and then we can figure out the specifics later. And I was struggling with it and someone had said to me or I read somewhere, instead of I was writing too much like factual about the day. So like I did this and then I did this and then I did this.

47:20And they were like, you need to be thinking about just like pick an emotion and start with emotion around, you know, something might have happened and I feel this so that I was trying to like move away from just being like documenting every single point in my day. But that can be some days. Some days it might be, oh, I did this, I did this, I did this. So what? Like you said, it's a mental muscle. or you might, I don't know. I mean, it can be a record. It can be a record of what you did that day. But like you said, it's just starting somewhere. You don't have to, I leave my journal mid-sentence.

47:57Oh, okay. And just go put it down. And some people love journal prompts and in my experience and knowing what I'm like as well, it's about being that perfectionist. I want to do journaling and I want to do it right. Yes, same. I'm like, here's my timer. Yep. What am I going to write about? And then already you're putting pressure on yourself. Yeah. So think of it as clearing the noise. It's just clearing the noise that's in your head. And then that in itself gives you more space for creativity, which is what I love about it because I can then just forget it. It's written down somewhere so I don't have to go back.

48:33It doesn't have to ruminate for the next week. It's gone. how long do you think until like for a newbie until you would start seeing a real difference in your like overall spirit

48:49i'm like give me a timeline please you want me to just give you a yeah um i need a gold star yeah see i think this is coming back to this is good insights into you more than me at the moment um what is your expert professional opinion yeah i don't have one um it's just do it just write it down but again it might not be right for you right you know a really good thing a really good place to start is write down three things you're grateful for three things that made you laugh yesterday oh that's a good one yeah i like that three it's like you know a friend of mine used to do these questions you must be able to pull them out somewhere and they're questions to ask kids.

49:32So who would you put in a rocket ship today and send to the moon? Oh, that's fun. Yeah. So make it, you know, make it right for you, whether it's fun or it's, it doesn't have to be so serious. Everyone makes everyone, everything so serious. Oh, I love that. I'm going to look up that version of it. Yeah. And that's not a journal. I think it's card games or. And it gets you, but it gets you into the flow. It breaks the first barrier of just being like, okay, well, now what? Yeah. I have a blank page here and I don't know what to do. Yeah, and particularly I think if you're creative, I like creativity.

50:06I like things that I think, oh, that's different. That's how I want to do it. On the kind of, you know, same thread as journaling, you are a writer, you do write publicly and share kind of longer form content. Is that also part of a healing process for you? It has been, yeah. So I did a lot of writing. I'm a bit haphazard about it. I have my substat that I write occasionally. And that's more just I might not write for three months and then I'll have this thing in my head I just want to get out. And I'll sit and write till like 1 a.m. and then publish it before I can talk myself out of it. And, you know, that's just practice.

50:53It's a muscle. I want to do more writing. I love reading really beautiful, glorious writing with amazing words. And that's what makes me happy. So if I can try and do that better, then that's my challenge to myself, is learning how to write more strongly in my own voice. What are some of your, like, favourite words or amazing words you've seen recently that are out of the norm? I love it when people kind of make up words. Oh, okay, like what? I don't know. It's just, I mean, I love the words like glorious and fantabulous and just I like words. Like extravagance to words. Yeah, I love frivolity.

51:38I love people who write with abandon and use those types of words because, well, now with AI too, everything just sounds the same And you can really hear when someone puts themselves into it. And that's, I kind of know, it just brings me joy. Yeah. I think it's, his name's Alan. What's the guy who wrote, he's the philosopher who wrote The Course of Love? Oh, gosh, I don't know. I feel like he's really great with words. He just says beautiful words. He writes with like elegance, even if it's not a complicated word, but there's such a flow of elegance to it. and you read it and you're like, oh, that's nice.

52:24It's nicely written. Well done. Yeah. Yeah. What is your relationship or mindset now, you know, having kind of like time to reflect on grief?

52:40My mindset with everything now is to feel it, live it, let it go, and, I don't know, use it. Does that make sense? I don't think that makes sense. It's more. No, but I understand the sitting and trying to process to then find the way forward versus trying to cover it. I try not to overthink at all anymore. I find that for me, creativity is really good for me. And so I now have that with dancing or writing or, you know, I want to do. If I had more time, I'd be doing more creative things. You know, I love pottery and just doing things instead of a computer. Yeah, and I feel like that's something I need to be better at.

53:33And if there's anything in this world I'd love to be better at, it's being creative. Yeah, it's good for the soul. Yeah. I started doing singing lessons and that's made a big – That's brave. Oh, my God. It is so brave, let me tell you. the first, the first session, I'm like sensory sensitive, right? So like I am just someone who likes a mood and I like a vibe or whatever. I walk into this singing place and it was like bright, bright lights, like middle of the day. I could hear the people next door. So I knew they would be able to hear me at my first singing lesson. And I'm a terrible singer. I'm just someone who loves karaoke.

54:15I love how it makes me feel. And I love serenading people in a car, you know, to the radio. Yeah. But a terrible singer. Anyway, I walk in there, I didn't know what to expect. And I kind of knew that we were going to actually sing stuff, but I didn't know what to expect out of a lesson. And then... See, that terrifies me. Yeah. Oh my God. I was so stressed, like sweaty, stressed. And the woman, she was like maybe 23, so a lot younger than I was. And she was like, oh, you need to pick a song that you're going to sing now, like after we'd done some warmups. And I was like, well, how do I pick a song that's like right for my voice and like my capabilities?

54:53I don't want to pick the wrong song. And that's what I'm paying you for. Yeah. I was like, what song do you think? And she's like, just pick a song like on your Spotify. I was like, help me pick. And she was like, oh, like a Disney song. And this is where I was like, oh my god you're a lot younger than me like I don't know Disney songs like what songs are you talking about anyway so I open up my Spotify I pick a song it's like the theme song of Coyote Ugly by Leanne Rimes I can't remember what it's called yeah impossibly hard song to start with I sit there or I stand there we're looking at each other in the eyes like face to face like this I sing the song.

55:27I would just cry. Well, we're nearly there. I sing the song going from like looking at my phone for the lyrics to looking at her in the eyes. And she's just looking at me the whole time. I finish it. I burst into tears. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. And then she's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, no, it's not you. It's me. I was just so stressed. And I can't believe I sang that song. can't fight the moonlight that's what it was yeah it was like hilarious and absolutely horrific at the same time because I was so embarrassed and it was like such a insanely like hard weird weirdly like close connection type thing to do but afterwards I was like oh well that's out of the way I'm not going back there but I'm gonna go keep going to singing lessons like I'm proud of myself Well, maybe that was you breaking through that whole nervous system.

56:24Oh, my God. You had that release at the end. The tears are good. Yeah. That's another thing I wanted to ask. It's on my list. Oh, God. Crying, the benefits of crying or the scientific kind of evidence behind crying or emotional sighing and what that does to the system. Two different things. So sighing is natural to the body. Like I said, I'm not a neuroscientist. So it's more, so what I've studied is more the systems and the, you know, what makes life worth living is more the science I'm into. But sighing is huge because it's a huge stress relief because we take a big breath in and then we're sighing all of the old breath out.

57:06I sigh all day. Yeah, but what they know now is that looking at our phones and screens reduces the amount of sighs that you have. Does it? Yeah. Didn't know that. It does. So if you're scrolling or you see it on the screen, you'll notice you're not sighing. So naturally we sigh every couple of minutes, but we don't so much anymore. It is big. And crying, yes, absolutely. It's a nervous system release. It's amazing for you. Don't hold it back. Holding back emotions is not great. I cried yesterday. Yeah, I did. I felt better after. You do. Yeah. So when we're thinking about the science that you're really, you know, interested in right now and living a better life and specifically what does that mean to you?

57:56Does that mean things like nature and creativity and the act of doing those things or? So that is, that's more around nervous system regulation. Okay. So all of those elements, so whether there's things like nature bathing, meditation, walking meditation, yoga, breath work. You know, there's so many different tools that you can call upon for nervous system regulation. So the science of wellbeing and positive psychology is that how to flourish in life. So it's, you know, what makes you, it's not necessarily, the big conversation now is around longevity. So living longer, having a better health span, a longer health span.

58:44But the flip side to that from a psychological perspective is what makes life worth living. And that comes down to, you know, different frameworks. You know, one of them is PERMA, which is positive emotions. It's that, you know, relationships, it's feeling like you're good at achieving something. It's finding purpose in life. So they're the elements that we talk through. And for me, health is a big part of that as well. So it's bringing together all of the psychological side as well as the physiological side. And so how do you answer that question, what makes life worth living now? I really believe now, particularly after the life that I've lived through to date, that what makes life worth living is having that bravery to actually live that life.

59:51And that's to be open to experiences, to love, to feel emotions, to try new things, to, I don't know, it's complicated, but it's, the biggest one is just bravery to live your life because a lot of people become really closed in and they become closed off to opportunities, to growth, to learning, to people. You know, we all know people that have gone through a really terrible divorce and are so closed off to love. And, you know, I've been through my own trauma, you know, separation and then a death. And I never want to be that person. I want to be the person who is brave enough to put myself on the line and say that I love somebody.

1:00:46And that is bloody the hardest thing to do at times. And that's what I mean with living a really good life. It's how to flourish in life. And for some, that's travel. For some, that's constantly learning. For others, it's, you know, relationships. You know, just look at the blue zones. You know, so much of that is around food and lifestyle, but there's so much around that that is around community and belonging. You know, every blue zone is in a region where family comes first. So it's not self-identification, it's family identification. and they're happy when the people are around them happy, whereas Western culture is very much around the I as happiness, I'm happy.

1:01:40So, you know, the happiest people in the world are those where they're actually making sure the people around them are happy first. So there's really interesting research around Eastern and Western culture and, you know, there's so much that we can learn from our ancestors and from other cultures. And that's, I find that fascinating. Yeah, I love that. Rich in life, but in terms of health, wealth, wisdom, not material. Yeah. Not material wealth. Yeah. And there's so much research around, you know, people want, they think that money makes them happy. And there's so much research that shows that that's not the case.

1:02:22You know, money does not make someone happy, but it does take away things that makes them unhappy because it takes the stress away. Yeah, it can solve problems. It can absolutely solve problems. But unless you're happy on the inside, you'll never be happy. And then there's a million other things like, you know, you're happier if you earn that money yourself. If you haven't earned that money, if it's given to you, you won't have that same level of happiness. Oh, that's an interesting one. It's like people who win the lotto often are really unhappy because they haven't earned that money. Oh. And that's why they often lose it all within the first five years.

1:02:59Yeah. Yeah. That's what I've read about that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's so interesting. So many levels. My mom and I, you know, she's a single mom. I was her only child. We grew up, as I would say, dirt poor on the side of a mountain. Yeah. But my mom always says that she was and she has always been rich in life. But for anyone like looking outside in, you would be like, yeah, that woman has no money. For me, I'm like, yeah, we had no money. Yeah. But Rich in Life because we had such a beautiful, peaceful, idyllic upbringing that was just based around nature and love and animals and, you know, such a beautiful upbringing.

1:03:37So I like when I think about that now. And that's my, that's important. Yeah, absolutely. We've covered a lot of things. We have. We've covered a lot of things. Yeah. What do you want to leave us with? Anyone who's listening that's maybe dealing with stress, burnout, grief, trauma?

1:04:03Find your joy. And that can be really hard to grasp. And I'm not really sure what to leave someone with, but I truly believe that one phone call can change your entire life. And once you've had that phone call or you've had that moment, you'll never see life the same way again. And I'm going to make myself cry now. You can cry. It's good for you. It is good for you, but my make-out won't like it. So, you know, you have to take hold of life with gusto and live as, you know, I want to live as hard as possible. And that's healthy in a healthy way. But it's so precious. And, you know, I like to say that I live with radical aliveness because I feel that we need to be more radical about it.

1:05:02We need to appreciate every day more. and to do that you need to take note of every little thing that's around you and appreciate everything and be grateful for every every moment that we have because everything could change in a heartbeat thank you so much thank you this was so beautiful thank you when i see other people cry then I want to start the drive. I haven't. It's just a tear in there. I can see it. I can see the tear. Oh, my goodness. This was so nice. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It's fun. I have an invite. Come back anytime. I know. I feel like we could sit here for hours.

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