Ask Your Kid The Tough Questions with Angie Martinez

27:28Right, right. Give a lecture on the - That's not, you know, that's not very - It's like, mom, get out of here. You know, sometimes it takes them a little - They got to go on a little path. Unless you're seeing something that's super disturbing. It's just kind of, you got to kind of watch and hop in where you - Yeah. It's a slow mold. Yeah. It's a slow, constant molding. And I think your strategy is terrific because you just can't jump at everything they say. And nor should you be helicoptering in when you hear stuff. And my two youngest are still young enough where, and Misha and I talked about this, it gets back to the isolation.

28:09They don't communicate with their friends as much as we did when we were younger. And part of that has to do with technology, but part of it has to do with parents who are trying to curate their upbringing instead of just letting them be outside, play, say the wrong thing, get into a fight with your boys, have to make up, and then start playing again. because that's what boys used to be known for. Because we talk about this all the time, how boys can get into an absolute fist fight. Oh, yes, my boys have done that. And then - They're outside playing basketball 30 minutes later. Outside playing basketball.

28:53Like nothing ever happened. Yeah, yeah. And it is a boy thing. It used to be intentional sometimes. They used to say, let's go shoot a fair one. And then they go fight it out. And then, not my boys, I'm just saying boys in general. That was a thing. Like, we're going to go fight it out, which I don't necessarily love that as a mom either. But I think this whole phenomenon is a part of just where we are in society. I think there is an industry in sort of toxicity. There's a marketplace for it. There is an absolute industry. There are people who are making money off of. 100%. Yeah. But until we can get these young men to sort of get away from their devices and start interacting from a communication standpoint, we're lost.

29:46I think in any relationship, child, husband, wife, communication is key. It's like, why did you say that? I heard you say that. Why did you say that? Do you think that? Is that what you really think? It's like really communication is a thing. And so sometimes I say I don't hover and I wait. Sometimes they'll come to me with something. And I love that. That makes me like, yes, I'm doing something good when they can come and say this happened. But creating a space where your kids don't feel always beat up by you, like you're helicoptering all the time and you can have open communication, dialogue.

30:22Like your friend did that? Why is that? You know, like give them the opportunity to explain and learn their own values from their own experiences and kind of help lead them that way. So I try that. There is more helicoptering going on in parenting. I know when we were growing up, Craig played a lot of sports. We did activities. We had parents that supported us, but they were never at every game. Yeah, of course not. They were working, right? They were working, right? I mean, you had to figure out how to get to practice. And it wasn't an expectation. You didn't feel unloved because—and my father tried to go to as many games as he could, but that was never the expectation.

31:03Our parents never interfered in school. But you knew the expectations. You knew the expectation, but our parents would never intervene. And I know just from my experience raising my kids in communities, and you've talked about seeing this as a coach. Parents are really, like you said, they're heavily curating their kids' experiences rather than advising on the sideline. You know, they're trying to stop bad things from happening or having any bad feelings happen to their kids. And Craig, you've seen this in coaching. I've seen it in coaching and I've seen it in parenting. And I just can't figure it out because...

31:46It comes from a place of love. It comes from a place of love sometimes. Oh, well. Other times it comes from a place of ego. Because as I'm sure you've seen with you, you know, you've got sons who've played sports at a high level. For some parents, that's not just the kids' attribution. That's theirs. Yeah. Because they weren't that athlete, but their son is, and now they're living through their son. And I just, I think you do your kids a disservice when you're... When you don't let them find their way. They've got to have their own experience. For sure. I mean, hopefully there's some listeners who see themselves in these kind of descriptions.

32:30And I tend to agree with Craig that, you know, I don't think we do our kids justice by not letting them learn how to, you know, take their own lumps and recover from it. Yeah. Like you don't want the first bump to be at 30 or is 27. Agreed. You want to let them get those bumps at 10. Yeah. And get the seven-year-old bumps and learn how to deal with those so you can handle the 10-year-old bumps and then the 15-year-old bumps. And then by the time you're out on your own, you've learned as a child that you're capable of solving your own problems. Because the alternative is trouble. And then when a parent intervenes, you're also subconsciously telling them, I don't think you can handle this.

33:20Yeah, that's true. Right? And so now you've got that message in their head that my mother doesn't even think I can figure this great situation out. So let me call her now because I don't think I can do it.

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39:48You know, you're making me think of something. When my son, my oldest first went to high school, I made a decision that I was not going to set his alarm clock. If I heard his alarm clock going off or his snooze, I was not going to go in the room and wake him up. I was not going to make him breakfast. And, you know, I did a lot of that in junior high school. And I made a hard decision. But that's why I say sometimes it's from love. Your instinct is, I don't want you to be late. Let me go make sure. and then I said if I start doing this now his whole high school experience I'm going to have to do this and I don't want to do that.

40:23I'd rather him have a few latenesses this week have the teacher say something to him and let's get this over with so we can get you in a routine so that I do not have to do this for the next four years. So I made a conscious decision at the beginning of high school that I was not going to wake him up. I was not going to make him breakfast. He's going to get himself up get his shower make his breakfast and get on the bus and get out of here. See now I want my daughters with that young man. Oh yeah. You know, the one who had to get up on his own and figure that out. And I do agree. This all comes from love.

40:55You know, for sure. I mean, it's the love of not wanting. Look, look, you have these kids. You don't you don't want a hair out of place. You don't want them to feel any of the negative. I get it. But that's the hard part of parenting is like you've got to let them oversleep. Mom gave us our mom gave us alarm clocks in kindergarten. Oh, your mother was ahead of the curve. Yeah, but she grew up with a sister that was a grown woman who had to be awakened by her father. And my mother, as a middle child watching that, said that that's the most ridiculous thing, that there's a grown woman who's going to work who can't get up on her own.

41:34And she just said, that's because my father has enabled her her entire life. My mother had a big family, so we won't even name which aunt this was. By the way, they know who they are. They know who they are. And she just said, that's not going to be you all. Because you were capable, even at five. She showed us how to work the alarms and said, you're now in school. This is your education. It's not mine. So you have to want this more than I want it. And I tried to carry that on, especially with the girls in the White House, when there's so much, they could have grown up for eight years in some catered false environment.

42:15and then they'd be turned out into the streets, right? Because it was going to be over, right? We weren't going to live there. Right, that was my whole thing. And I think that's what parents have to think is the, and then what? What happens when they aren't in your home? And then what? Have you prepared them? Have you prepared them? And that's, I think that's the greatest gift. That's the love we give them is to do the hard thing for us early so that when they're out there, they can really function. And I'll tell you something, nothing feels better than being a parent and maybe not even being sure.

42:51Oh my God, can they handle this? Or he's going through that. Let me just wait. And then they actually, they come to you. Oh no, I did it. There's nothing more fulfilling as a parent than watching your child be able to do something on their own and handle a situation. So Angie, let's help Jessica get to that point because you said something earlier that really struck me when you said that your sons will come to you and ask you, what should I do in this situation? And if your son comes and says, hey, look, I'm around these toxic guys. I don't know that those words would come out, but some teenage version.

43:37I want to... He's tripping. Yeah. And I want to fit in with him, but I want to be... I want to do the right thing. Yes. What can we tell Jessica some tools to help her with her son? In terms of how to answer that question? How to answer that question. Like I said, it goes... You have to feed them... You answer it in a way where they're forced to answer the questions. Don't give them all the answers. Present them with situations where they have to figure out the answer, and you guide them through it. Like, God, it's tricky because, you know, you don't want to tell other people's business. But one of my friends had a problem with one of one of his friends got into a situation.

44:15And my son said, well, do you think he did that? He was accused of something. And he said, well, do you think he did that? I said, well, honestly, you spent way more time with him than than I have. Do you think he's capable of that? What is your experience been? Why do you like him? Like it just gave me an opportunity to get to understand how what he values in friendship, what he values in other people. And I was really pleased with the way he answered those questions for me. And it was honest. And instead of saying, well, you shouldn't hang out with them because they probably did. You know, all my stuff, it was an opportunity for me to have him think about what he values in friendships and human beings and people.

44:59You know, I'm smiling because Malia taught me that parenting principle very early. Three years old, she had a friend in nursery school who was just kind of not a nice girl and was always, I'd go pick her up from nursery school. And there was always some story about Anna Maria or what she did. and she was mean, but they were friends and buddies. And so she's in the car seat and I'm driving and I'm just like, oh, your teacher just said, Anna Maria did da-da-da-da-da. And I was like, why are you? I just laid in Anna Maria. I was like, why are you friends with her? You know, I mean, you should, she just doesn't seem nice.

45:35Aren't you tired of that? And da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You knew what you would say. I was telling her my feelings about her friend. And this little kid said to me, she said, I said, well, why are you friends with her? And she says, well, you remember when I was little? I was like, yeah. It's like when I first went to nursery school and I didn't have any friends. She said, I said, yeah. She said, and Anna Maria was my friend. And she was my first friend. I was like, yeah, the wind is blowing out of my sail. And she said, well, you know, I can't just stop being her friend just because she doesn't do everything right.

46:11I was like, oh, you're right. You know? And by that, she explained to me, as you did, why she was friends with Anna Marie. And I couldn't take issue with her assessment of it. She understood at three the situation. And it wasn't about my feelings about her. And I should not have intervened. And she went on. I mean, they weren't friends forever. But that is a difficult thing because out of love, you don't want anybody messing with your three-year-old. You're like, why are you with it? They're not worthy of your friendship. They aren't worthy. You know, but I learned that the lesson that you talked about is like, don't always interject.

46:49You know, some of the best things you can do is ask the question and show them that you trust their judgment about how they see the world. It also helps you to know them. That's for sure. Because you're so busy putting ourselves and our view of the world and our stuff on them that sometimes you have to like peel back and get to know, well, who are you? Well, what does make you, how, what does, you know, move you and inspire you? I talked to Barack about that too, because as we, our two girls are very different, you know, and as all are all kids. It's like you have the first child and, you know, they're easy and talkative and all that.

47:32You think you're a great parent. And then you have the second one who is just the opposite, you know, but both my girls, I love them to death, but they are clear personalities. and parenting through that is really getting to know them, you know, because they tell you, they tell you from the time they're two, three, who they are, how they think, what their temperaments are, but you've got to be a listening parent. And then you've got to accommodate to how they hear things, how they see the world. I say parenting is like fly fishing, never been fly fishing, but from what I've seen about it, it's all in the wrist.

48:10It's a very delicate balance of lure and wind and the flow of the stream. It's like nothing works the same way every time. It's elegance, right? It's not dunk and drop and grab. We should go fly fishing. We should go fly fishing. Better than golfing. No, it's so good. Ariana Huffington has one of my favorite quotes, which is that life is the dance between making it happen and letting it happen. And it's really the same thing with parenting. It's like, you want to protect them, you want to give them, you want to nurture them, but also you have to let them show you things, show you who they are, let them come to you, and all those things.

48:49Because they amaze you, too. Yes, I learn from my boys all the time. Yeah, yeah. They will amaze you if you give them the space. If you allow them to. If you allow them to. I want to hone in on some tools for Jessica. and what I'm hearing from the two of you is empathy. I love you as a podcaster. I'm nervous. Bring it back. Bring it back. I love this video. It's like now we're fly fishing. It's like poor Jessica. She won't know what to do. It's like okay Jessica. You got this Jessica. Craig is focusing. I'm just I want to make sure she's good. The good thing about Jessica is you clearly love your child.

49:25You took the time to write that eloquent, beautiful, thoughtful note which means that you spend a lot of time thinking about and loving on your kid. Yeah. And so chances are he's going to be okay. My mother always said, like when my mother became a grandmother, she was like, I heard this thing about kids and I believe it. You just got to love them. Yeah. You just love them till they're juicy with love. Mm-hmm. And the rest of that, everything you can't control, but you can't just love them. And so clearly she does. But I think something that I found hard to do with my two older kids, but easier to do with the two younger is what both of you talk about that we almost gloss over, but it's a big part of this is being empathetic, seeing life through your kid's eyes and not overreacting.

50:17And both of you have talked about it. And especially the point about sort of the counseling judo of asking your son the question, well, what would you do in this situation? That is so simple, but it's hard for people to do because some parents don't want to know the answer if it's not the right answer. Or they're trying to guide the answer. Control it. They're trying to control the answer. You can't do it. If I tell you the answer, let me give you a leading question. Let me tell you. And it's like, you know, what I would say to Jessica is mirroring what Angie said is, you know, first you got to do the work early on to set the values.

51:01Right. And you've got to you've got to be modeling and make sure that in your household, the adults that he's seeing, the conversations that you're in. And so you've got to also look at the household you run and, you know, the conversations, how you carry yourself. And because that's going to be the first lessons as the first and most important lessons are the lessons he's seeing Jessica live out. And coming from people with older kids, I'm surprised at how much is baked in. You don't know it while you're cooking up the cake. Yeah. But as they get older, they they show you, oh, you were listening.

51:43I know. Isn't that? Oh, I love that. It's my favorite. You did pick that up. You were watching. You saw me add in the buttermilk in the you were watching the recipe happen. Right. But they've got to have good things to watch. and then you've got to trust them and put them in situations where they can practice their humanity with people. Get them off the phone. You know, make sure. The fact that he's in a room with friends and not on a phone and that they're having, if they're having a in real person conversation with a bunch of boys, that's a good thing. Also, you know, there is this sad truth is that you could do everything right.

52:23That's for sure. Life be life. Life just lives. Your kids make mistakes. Your kids have troubles. They have hard times. And it's not something that you did. You can't control the outcome of every situation. That's the hard part of parenting. That's like the heartbreaking part of parenting. You got to think about that before you even have the baby. Nobody tells you that when you have the baby. I've been trying. I've been trying to tell people. I always say that. I tell people too. Because I say the one thing that pissed me off about parenting is like when I got pregnant, And nobody told me when my son was a baby, I would look at his chest and see if he was still breathing.

52:57I'd go in the room and I would do that for weeks. And then I said, okay, I can't sleep. When does this part stop? And the day that I realized, oh my gosh, this never stops. I was furious that nobody told me that. Like, this is a big deal. Like, forever I have somebody to worry about. Forever and ever, amen, as I say. I don't care how old. My life is different forever. And then they'll have grandkids and you'll feel the same way about them. So it just goes on. It's torturous. It's really torturous. So we got to think about this because parenting is for, you know. It ain't for everybody. It ain't for suckers.

53:29It's not for suckers. You got to be tough. You got to, you know, you got to be. And so we have to prepare. Jessica has to prepare her son for that life because life ain't for suckers, right? So he's got to be ready because life will have challenges. And so parenting with that in mind, preparing kids for the world that they will enter, not the world that mom hopes they will have or the ones that she can manipulate to make it feel okay, because it will never be like that. At some point, her son will hit a roadblock, will have a stumble, will have a bad interaction. And so he has to be ready to handle that, which means that she's got to let him practice making mistakes and having friendships that go awry and learning how to correct that.

54:23She's got to coach and advise. She can't live his life for him. And if she's thinking all along, I'm creating an adult, a full-blown adult in the world that's going to drive a car and have other kids and work a job and be somebody's neighbor. And he's going to be a man. And he's going to be a man in this world. He's not your little boy out in the world. Please, make these men ready. Get them ready for hurt and disappointment and make them resilient. and you can't do that if you're monitoring his friends and trying to interfere and make life easy for him at a young age because he won't be ready for what is inevitably out there.

55:11I don't care what race he is. He's gonna be a man in the world and there will be hardships and disappointments and he's gotta be ready. I know I do that with my girls and people say mothers raise their girls and love their sons. And I'd say, love your son, but raise him too. Raise him to be as strong as you know he's going to have to be. Teach him about how to deal with a traffic stop, but also teach him how to communicate in a marriage and be a listening father and to be a compassionate neighbor and to be a voting citizen. Somebody who's going to pay attention and care about something outside of himself.

55:55you know and if you're if you're thinking about that human then all these choices become a little more clear it's about what he needs as a grown man in the world that would be you should have threw a boy in the mix I'm so glad I didn't have a boy why did you have a third because he would have been a Barack Obama oh my baby Barack it would have been amazing no I would have felt for him she just borrowed our boys yes I got many She always borrowed ours. I got plenty. That's funny. Well, what do you do? Do you think we gave enough tools? No, I think— I think we gave too much. I think we went— No, no.

56:32Sorry if we took you on a whole rollercoaster ride. Jessica, I'll be so sorry. This is what I will say, and we don't know if Jessica's married or not. It's true. We didn't hear that part about it. But that's why we have wives, because you all know what you're talking about. Yeah, but y 'all got to know something, too. You got to contribute. Come on, dude. See, here's what happens when I say... That was uncalled for. That was uncalled for. I'm sorry. You struck a nerve with both of us. All the guys in here are like, we both do. We both kind of lead. Try to be nice. It's like, yeah, don't put it all on us.

57:08Look what happens. That's why you have to know. You watch yourself. Jessica, I hope this was helpful. I hope so too, Jessica. I love it. I love it. And you threw something else in there at the end. is after empathy and after asking the questions, you have to trust. You have to trust the process and trust your son. So no, I think this has been pretty good. Prayer don't hurt either, by the way. There you go. That's another thing. Prayer don't hurt. A little prayer. It's like, Jesus, please help them. Please help them, protect them. Well, Angie, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. Really?

57:46Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is good. Thank you for coming. You are a legend. Thank you, Angie. Thank you. Sorry we ganged up on you in that little moment. I don't apologize. That was perfect. I'm fine with it. That was perfect. I'm fine with it, everyone. I saw my brethren out there. We're both capitalists. I saw my brethren out there. They're like, you fell for the trap. You fell right into the trap. Thank you for having me. Hopefully we'll do this again. Be well. Bye, Jessica. Wherever you are, Godspeed.

58:48Transcription by CastingWords I think it's important for people to build careers around things that they enjoy, not just making money. That's not to say that making money isn't important, but a career is a lifetime commitment. I'm going to have to agree with you because your hot take is the exact advice you gave me when I was leaving corporate America. And you said to me, if you can do something that you love doing, go ahead, because we grew up not having money and we ended up just fine. Following your passion is sometimes a luxury, but following your values is a necessity. When you're considering new work opportunities, it's worth asking, do I want to become more like the people here?

59:25Do they share my values? I'm Adam Grant, and you can hear more hot takes like these from guests like Lin-Manuel Miranda, Dolly Parton, Trevor Noah, Reese Witherspoon, Brene Brown, and more on my podcast, Rethinking, wherever you listen. Hey there, it's Michelle and Craig. On our IMO podcast, we've brought in some incredible guests to answer your burning questions and share our opinions about the things that matter to all of us. Like what success looks like in different families with Glennon Doyle, why we all need to learn how to say no with Taraji P. Henson, and how failure can actually make you better in your career with our friend Kiki Palmer.

1:00:05We hope you'll all listen in every week. And did you know that you can hear the show on Amazon Music? Just open the Amazon Music app and search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson today.