Behind The Looks with Meredith Koop

28:03All you have to do is search my name, Yanae Damtu. And if you're also a hair professional looking to grow your clientele, you too can list your business on Airbnb at airbnb.com slash services.

28:20Well, I want to go back a little bit to first impressions because neither one of you could have prepared for the role of a lifetime that you were both about to step into together. so you know not just you being a first lady but the first black first lady is it that's a unique styling job that there's certain complexities that no one can teach you that right you have to learn that there's some innate intuitive and historical understanding that you have to have to step into a role like that so I want to go to first impressions and how and because when I think about you know, the fact that most people don't know who this enigma is, the stylist behind Mrs.

29:08Obama. What was your very first impression of Meredith? And Meredith, I'm going to ask you the same question. And I want unfiltered, raw first impressions of each other. Well, the first impression was she's gorgeous. And I always tell Meredith this, I think she is one of the most beautiful people inside and out. And she seemed calm, just steady, even though I know that deep down inside, she can be a bubbling pot of everything.

29:46This poise, I mean, this is who Meredith has always been. She has not changed. And even though Meredith worked in this high-end store and she could have been, she was very much a regular girl who I felt like I recognized. And I'm always one to get to know people's stories, you know? So throughout all the time that we work together with everybody that I work with, I want to know, how'd you grow up? Tell me about your mom, tell me about your sister, you know, her relationship with her sister and her brother-in-law and her honesty about her challenges in life. I mean, she wasn't coming in phony. She wasn't coming in trying too hard.

30:35She was coming in full heart open. And then there is the relationship with my girls, right? Because Meredith didn't just style me. I mean, I needed, the girls had to get dressed for events and for, my mom had to get dressed. I mean, this little girl at such a young age was taking that all on. And she had a connection with Malia and Sasha and mom. I mean, they were as close to Meredith as I was. She's been through a lot over the course of our time in the White House. She lost her sister in her battle with cancer. I'm so sorry. And she's in Washington trying to hold that down and making sure that her family was good.

31:27It's just, you know, you just know a person's heart, which to me is more important than the job. You know, her heart was right. And that was completely clear from the beginning. And I'm so proud of her. just proud of the woman that she is. So that was really my first and continues to be my impression of Mary. Thank you. I know, get the tissues. I was supposed to make you cry. Here, here goes something. What is it like hearing her say those things about you? It's wonderful. I very much appreciate it. And I mean, frankly, it's true. You know, I have done, you know, just to sort of go back a little bit like, you know, by the time I met you, I was 27.

32:20So when I was 21, after like a lot of struggles, I got sober, I started going to therapy. So any, the foundation that I came in with was that. That was the foundation that I built over those six years of learning about what it was to be in recovery, learning about myself in that way. So I'm in that, that's where I'm at when I met her. And the first time that we met was at Ikram's store and it was her and Sasha and Malia. So that's right. It was hectic. Yeah, it was like a lot of energy and also there was an expectation that I should sort of like be a little bit reserved. Like, I'm not going to go, hey, what's up, y 'all?

33:12You know, like, it's like you're here, you're going to meet them, and like, that's it. She's going to pull you for an interview. I don't know when. That's whatever. So, my first impression was there was a lot going on. Secret service. I know she looked at me, and I know she acknowledged me, but it wasn't like warm, fuzzy right off the bat. You know what I'm saying? Like, there was just, we were in the middle of a fitting she was about her business she was about her business and like I get it and I had already worked with clients so I understood clients aren't going to come in and placate you make you feel good so like so that I understood and then but then the sort of shift in that environment is her two daughters that are there jumping around and like just acting like they're at a carnival, you know?

34:08And I'm like, oh my God, they're just so cute. You know, they're just so like, so cute. Just, ah, you know? And so it was sort of more of a environment. And when we went in the dressing room, we had like this very short interview. I mean, it was just like, who are you? Like there wasn't like a resume sitting out. It was just like, who are you? What's going on? I need someone. You seem like this. And I was just like, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm not, just to go back, I'm not really shy. I'm not reserved. That's not who I am. But I'm also, I think it's just my approach and what I see fashion as in this industry that I work in, I think is probably maybe a little different than what a lot of people are projecting or what sort of like the loudest voices.

35:04Like for me, it's always been like the beauty and the creativity and the connection and the energy and that whole thing. Even if I couldn't articulate it when I was 21, you know, that's always, I've always just been like imaginative and creative and wanting to be creative in that space. So the fact that I got into this, this is now what I'm doing with my creativity. It could have been other things. This is just how it played out up until this point. And I also want to say that there is a difference between when you think of celebrity stylists, I always think of which word are you emphasizing? Are you the celebrity stylist?

35:47Are you a celebrity stylist? And there is a difference. There is a big difference, right? Right. Because, you know, would I say that I have a stylist? You know, I didn't know what that word was. I knew that I needed help getting clothes because there was no way, as I write in the book, that I could go to Bloomingdale's and run and do a couple of errands or go to Neiman Marcus like I was doing before I met Meredith. There was just no room for it. And the art of getting dressed as a regular woman. It was not executable for me. So I wasn't thinking style as much as I was thinking, I got a lot of events coming up and I can no longer go into the department store like a regular person.

36:37I can't get stuff off the rack. I can't browse. I don't have time for that, nor do I have the ability. The bubble was so thick and continues to be that the normalcy of everyday dressing was no longer available to me or my daughters. Well, I think, let's define the term stylist. Oh, let's do it. Because you started styling Mrs. Obama before that was a recognizable term or job that people even knew about. And to this day, the average person doesn't really know much. I didn't know about it. I wouldn't have called Meredith a stylist. Right. I mean, unless you were Rachel Zoe. doing it. That was the first time I heard about it when she had that reality show.

37:24I was like, oh, wow. Imagine somebody buying clothes for you. That seems interesting. It's a fashion fairy tale, like not real life. And one of the words that Meredith has used to describe you, like in a word, she has described you as practical above all else. So I want to hear you guys. We're going to get into that. It's so true. It applies to the fashion. We're going Help us define what your role actually was. Because as you mentioned, these days, sometimes the stylists are as celebrated as the celebrities that they dress. And they have their whole aura and a whole platform. In this case, that was not the case.

38:05You were here to do a job. And the job was so singular for an individual like Mrs. Obama. So what, and it's not as glamorous as people might imagine. So tell us what the job really entailed. Yeah. So a few things. It's true. Rachel Zoe was the first stylist in sort of at least American culture that everybody was sort of aware of in the mainstream. So I watched that show and I knew who she was. And I was like, she's incredible. I love her. but my role and kind of coming back to this question of defining a stylist it's true that what I was doing in the White House isn't what a typical stylist would necessarily be doing just because of the the various considerations and the intensity of those considerations like It wasn't about what's fabulous, what's new, what's hot, what just came down the runway.

39:16Sometimes little bits of that. Probably more so now than then. More so now, but it was more about what works, what makes sense, what is not going to pull attention away from what is going on here that is the bigger, more important thing. There were so many other considerations in choosing clothing and accessories and research and vetting and all of the stuff that I think it is different. And I needed to look good but not look apart, right? So I had to feel good in it, but I couldn't show up looking like don't touch me. You know, don't come near. I am so above you. I couldn't do that and sit on the floor with a bunch of preschool kids.

40:12You know, as I was alluded to, I didn't want my clothes to speak before me. I could never wear anything that wouldn't allow me to hug someone, to drop on the floor, to do jumping because we were literally because of Let's Move. I would never know when somebody would say, let's do some push-ups. I mean, that happened on Ellen. That happened when we went to South Africa and went to the World Cup event, and we did this big Let's Move event. And remember Bishop Tutu, Desmond Tutu, because we were doing all these. We were just supposed to be walking around watching kids do calisthenics and things like that.

40:55And he looked at me and he said, I'm going to do push-ups. And I'm like, oh, Bishop, please don't do push-ups. He was like, no, no. He dropped on the floor. And I was like, I looked over at my team and I know Meredith was like, don't get on the floor. And I was like, if he's doing push-ups, if an 80 plus Bishop Desmond Tutu is on the floor doing push-ups, I'm doing push-ups with him. That kind of stuff would happen all the time. Meredith is cringing in the back. No, for sure. And also, we were ready. I remember what she was wearing that day. It was just, we were ready. Because by that time, we kind of knew.

41:38We had to stay ready. Yeah. We had to stay ready. And it was a lot of very unglamorous activities. Well, and then there is also the valet part of what Meredith had to do. Those would be the unglamorous activities. Hugely unglamorous. Packing. insane amounts of items and things and clothes and color coding them and organizing them. Like, give us a sense. How many events a week, a month? Well, it wasn't so, you know, I don't know how many events a week, a month, but it was more the foreign travel or campaign travel that was like the big, huge lifts of like, and let's be fair, like people do press tours and concerts and all this.

42:22So like, it's not that it's out of the ordinary. I guess the situation was because I was working for the government and because there's only so many resources. I was a one person doing that. I was the one packing everything. I mean, Rachel has a team of stylists. Law Roach has an entire team. We didn't have that. We're a one-woman show. And also for structural purposes, this is the difference between the First Lady and the Commander-in-Chief. The Commander-in-Chief, his whole wardrobe crew comes from the military because he is the equivalent of a five-star general. And generals have valets. They have people who were enlisted, who were trained to wash, care for, uniform, suits, so on and so forth.

43:13The president of the United States has the same thing when he travels, when he gets dressed. So my husband was assigned three valets. The family gets zero. The family is a bit secondary, right? Right. So on the first lady's personal staff, there was only a position budgeted for one person that could be a babysitter or like a maid or, you know, I mean, it sort of was a catch-all position, which didn't really fit into anything that a modern day woman was doing. I mean, I was working, I was up, as they would call it, at least three or four days per week. That's just the average week. And by up means, and this is how I would just structure my days, because I was also a mom.

44:08And there were also the times when I needed to be at school and going to soccer games and have that time up. And in those three days that I'm up three or four days, we would do anything from, the day could start off with me harvesting the garden with kids. And then I would move to maybe a greet with military spouses and then go to a tea with a set of ladies or give a speech in the executive oval on healthy eating. and then I would leave and maybe go visit a high school. I would get all that done in one day and we would have to be prepared. That might mean I'd be changing my clothes two, three times a day.

44:56And so Meredith would be responsible for getting me ready for each of those looks, each of those days, getting those clothes ready, getting them fitted, getting them to designers and back, coordinating fittings for me within that schedule, because then you have to still sit and fit for clothes. I had one person to do all of that. That person was Meredith. And she had to procure it. She had to go out and do the research and find designers and see who were the latest and greatest. Who were those new up-and-coming minority designers? And I don't even know how she did that to do that, to get on the phone and actually procure clothing to set up for the fitting, to get ready for those weeks and months and months of things.

45:52But here's what I didn't have to do. I didn't have to worry about it because this little kid from Missouri somehow handled all of that.

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50:57I'm sure there was so much pressure on getting it right up front that by the time you left the door, you had to let it go. The biggest decision, I write about this in the book, is the very first time we went to the Grand Canyon. I write about this and we're on Air Force One because the schedule kind of screwed us up, right? And this is sometimes when it's me on my own, I control the schedule, fashion, and all of that is factored into the schedule. When I'm with the president of the United States, I'm on his agenda. We're told we're supposed to go on a hike in the Grand Canyon, right? We don't know anything more than that.

51:43This was at the beginning of the term too, where we really didn't realize that we have to really know all of the details. We can't just get the, we're going to the Grand Canyon because we're on Air Force One about to land. And we're also, he's going to then go off and give a speech somewhere. So we are sitting with this dilemma, what do I wear off this plane? Because we hit the tarmac and we're going with a park ranger to the Grand Canyon. We were like, well, what would I wear? What would a regular person, woman wear with her husband? She would have on shorts. And we spent like 15 minutes going back and forth.

52:26It was a really weird day. I'm going to say that first of all. But I mean, for me, that whole thing was like, this is my perception. Yeah. The word hike was being thrown around in a way that if I were to define a hike, and I've been on many hikes, this was not a hike. But it was like, they just kept saying hike, hike, hike, hike. That's what they told us. She gets in her mind that it's a hike. So she's like, I'm going hiking. And I'm like, there's no way they're having her. But I can't prove it. I don't know. I don't have the information. And nobody could tell us. Nobody could clearly lay out exactly.

53:01Well, we might hike down the mountain, right? And I was like, well, I can't. She's not hiking down the mountain. But there were times when stuff like that would happen. Or if my husband decided, come on, let's go down the mountain, right? Right. I have to be ready for that. But what happened? And you don't win. I got crucified for dishonoring Air Force One by walking down the stairs in shorts. How dare you? Dishonoring. I mean, the terms used were like, whoa, okay. We have to start pushing for real clear answers. I mean, we slowly started changing the way that we got prepped and what kind of information.

53:43And this is why people started. And it was detailed. because it's like, no, you have to tell us. If my team hasn't planned it, if I'm with the president, we have to know what exactly we're going to do. And then I would have to opt in and out of stuff. So we learned. We learned how to manage information and learned that the wrong management of it could be some crazy negative headline that could then distort the whole purpose of the trip. And that kind of stuff infuriated me, actually. It really did. And it's wildly unfair. Well, it just is pointless to the bigger issues of the country. Right. It just seems like the people who are sitting at their desk deciding to write about a pair of shoes, you know, again, we've lost the plot.

54:38It wasn't like people in the White House were like, oh, yeah, fashion. It was in fact the opposite. It was very, it was not that type of environment. People didn't, you know, there were people who didn't respect the work. They had no clue. I mean, that pressure that is on the first lady. And I will say the first lady because it's a woman's burden of getting up every day and showing up in a readied way. And the women who work in the White House, I mean, many of them were struggling as well, especially on foreign travel. I mean, one of the things that we had to do with the State Department, which they failed to understand, is that we needed a lot of really important details to make the fashion on foreign trips work.

55:31Because you have to think about colors. What colors prints could be insulting, could be inclusive? we'd have to know things like weather. Is it going to rain? Because you can't show up with a silk blouse if you're going to be standing in the pouring rain. The pavement, cobblestone versus grass versus all of that kind of stuff, which Meredith would have to, at alone, push to get this what seemed like meaningless information information from high-level officials that could make or break the whole trip. So many powerful women, especially women of color, related to your journey and the tightrope walk of even having to decide with such discernment and so much intention what you put on your body, how you do your hair, how you present yourself to the world.

56:29I knew like if something went wrong with the designer, you know, if it was the wrong thing, the wrong person, the wrong time, even just the zipper breaks, she falls down, her heels break. Like you've never seen her fall down because I checked everything. You've never seen her zipper pop because I checked the zipper. You know what I mean? So like. We can't have our first black person. Lady falling down. No, no, no. That was the biggest goal. Getting out of the eight years without falling. And it's like, because really, when you say tightrope, sometimes it literally was like a set of slippery stairs.

57:06You know, she's walking down in three-inch heels or whatever. So, yeah, it was really just keeping that all in mind. And also, like, I just didn't—I didn't want to bring any negativity. I was like, let it not—let me not be the one to bring negativity into this space. Just for listeners who don't really have context, like, the role that you are describing— It doesn't exist. This is one of one. You are one of one. So I want to give you your flowers. And now that we understand the practicality, the logistics of the job, I want to talk about the creativity and the storytelling. Because I know that that's what makes your heart beat.

57:49That's what gets you up in the morning and makes you excited to do the logistics and that you're kind of like a professional schlepper in addition to being like this incredible visionary stylist. So let's talk about the storytelling because that is such a big part of styling. And the two of you have woven together this incredible fashion narrative over the years together. Talk to me about what were the stories you were trying to tell, both in the White House and after? Yeah. I mean, it's different for everything. Everything is so specific. You relish the moments of the state dinners or, you know, the events where you feel like, okay, we can like have a little bit of more fashion and not feel nervous about it.

58:37Not feel like, oh, this is going to take away from something. It's part of it, you know, like it's part of it for a first lady to show up looking beautiful, you know, as a representation. They're waiting with bated breath to see what she turns up in. Absolutely. So it's true. There were a ton of like, I mean, I would say even now, like logistics just like take over everything. I feel like in creative spaces, unless you have a certain setup, which I don't know a lot of people that do. But that creative, that storytelling was always for me just a lot of instinct, frankly, and just like taking in a lot of information and then allowing it to come out however it would.

59:29And that means like, I'm keeping up with shows. I'm keeping up with designers. I'm keeping up with new designers. I'm keeping up with politics. I'm keeping up with what's going on internally. I'm keeping up with the East Wing. I'm keeping up, you know, so it's like, you take in all this information and like, it would just always come back to like my process. Like I established and built a process for myself of how I procured clothing, how I interface with designers, how I pulled things and then putting them together upstairs. Like I would spend all the time I had laying things out, like digesting it, trying it on myself because we're about the same height and like.

1:00:06It's convenient. Yeah. So I kind of became a little bit of a fit model. Because some things I was like, I couldn't understand it on the rack. I was like, huh? Yeah. And it's also like things always look different on the body. So it's like helpful to see, you know, to try on. So really it would just be that. Like I would just, over the years especially, I just started to trust more and more like what my vision was. And we also never allowed anybody else to dress me for a fashion shoot because we couldn't count on somebody not putting us in a designer that could, you know, was doing something wrong or get you in trouble.

1:00:44And the fashion editors aren't thinking like that. They're thinking, even with Vogue, and I want to thank Anna Wintour for allowing us the flexibility. I mean, the first time I was on the cover of Vogue, I was wearing J.Crew. I know Anna wasn't really happy about that. But we were also sending a message that this Vogue cover was about something bigger than fashion. And fortunately, every editor understood that. You know, so while there were those that took it too seriously, we had so much support from the fashion community, the fashion industry, as they got to know us to understand this bigger story that we were trying to tell.

1:01:30And we got a lot of really good support. Yeah, I can speak to that as a fashion editor at the time. Yeah. I don't know if you would remember this moment, but it was my first shoot ever. I remember for sure because it was essence. It was ebony. It was ebony. Your first solo ebony cover. I wore that feather. Yes, your black McQueen suit. Yeah, McQueen. The McQueen suit with the, yeah. But the fun backstory here is that, and I don't even know if you know this, but before you arrived on set, we had racks for you and custom made pieces. And the stylist was just, you know, stressed. Oh, poor thing. And then minutes before you arrive, we get this phone call and we hear, she's going to arrive in her own clothes.

1:02:22And she's going to shoot in her own clothes. And while it sent the stylist in a tizzy, my boss, Harriet Cole, who I have to shout out, took it. She had a big smile on her face. And she said, that's what we're going to do then. we are pivoting. There was something so incredibly awesome about that. From the very first moment that you stepped on the scene, you redefined the terms of how you were going to play this fashion game. And those who got it, got it. It was powerful. I just, I'm curious, were you a, like that day, did you know that? I know it happened at Vogue as well. Was this a thing that you all sort of did?

1:03:06I mean, I think it was a part of... Us understanding that I had to be in complete control of my image. I had gotten burned by not being really in control of the narrative of me. And it just became something that I knew I needed to do. It's important for me to define me to America. Yes, because I'm black, because I was the first, because there were opponents on both sides. It wasn't just Republicans. It was some of my husband's Democratic opponents who were going to play the race card and use our otherness against us. So, and we talked about this, that I have to show up authentically me because if I'm going to get dinged, it's going to be dinged.

1:04:10I'm going to get dinged. It's going to be the real me that's going to get dinged. It's going to be the clothes I chose to wear, not somebody else's clothes. It's going to be the words I said and not what somebody put in my mouth. It's going to be America understanding me. Like me, don't like me, but don't like the made-up version of me. That, I think, I would have more trouble. I would have had more trouble with than the opposite. And also, I just respectfully cannot imagine you showing up to a photo shoot and trying on clothes for two hours or whatever before a shoot. It's a matter of practicality.

1:04:52It's the Capricorn in her. I've never seen anything even close to that occur. I mean, it's just not prepared. What if she didn't like anything? What if nothing fit? What if they had the wrong measurements? Like there's just a million things that could go wrong. Also, given what era this is, is she campaigning? Like, is she going to come to a shoot? And do you know what I mean? Like, these are the things that maybe differentiate her as a public figure, first lady, incoming first lady from a celebrity. I don't know. But like, I would just never even imagine something like that happening. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you're contextualizing it in this way because, you know, that cover was June 2008 for the September.

1:05:38That was when we shot. It was for the September issue cover, which is typically the fashion issue. And so it felt like you had already understood the power of what you put on your body and what it can do. And so it was genius for you to say, I'm going to control my narrative. I'm going to control my image. And I'm going to do it respectfully. You know, the story that we wanted to tell was inclusion, you know, which started with the selection of Jason Wu as to design both of my inaugural gowns. It's an opportunity. It's an American opportunity. So we wanted to make sure that dressing me, which was a big deal, we knew, became an American opportunity.

1:06:28It became something that all designers that could aspire to if they were ready for it, right? So if I have the body that is going to sort of showcase it, I felt it was my responsibility as the first lady of the United States of America to wear American designers. That was an easy thing. We never ran out of wonderful things to do. And we believed in the immigrant story, which is part of the American story. I will say it and continue to say it. We are all immigrants in one way, shape, or form. It is the foundation and the basis of this country. So being able, and that is so true in the fashion industry.

1:07:17We would not have the clothes on our backs if it were not for immigrants coming here with tools and skills and the abilities, as all of our ancestors did, to make this country what it is today. And what better way to hail them than to bring up the Jason Wu's and the Prubles and the Maria Cornejo's. I mean, what a powerful way to talk about fashion without talking about fashion. There was a mic. If I could just, I would just drop it right now. That was so riveting. And I remember vividly living through those. That was fashion history. And while you weren't trying to make it the story, it was a huge story for folks like me in the fashion industry and for anyone.

1:08:06I mean, speaking about your influence on fashion, I think about that White House black market dress that you wore on The View. It was, I think,$137,$127,$24 or something sold out at their over 300 stores. and then there was a two and a half month wait list for that dress. I mean, the incredible influence that you had cannot be understated. Although I know that you all are so intentional and that's what I love about hearing more about your process.

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1:13:09We have to talk about post-White House fashion because you're saying, you know, at that time, you were not representing yourself. Yeah. But now you are. I am. All of it, right? Your style evolution has just captivated so many people who love fashion and those who maybe weren't thinking about fashion until they saw how good you looked at your book tour. So for me, as an outsider, your becoming book tour was really kind of this defining moment in your style evolution where you stepped out and said, honey, I am going to wear the Balenciaga boots that are thigh high, that are sparkly with the yellow dress.

1:13:53And like that was another moment that blew up the internet. And I remember like the girlies going, Wow. I mean, everybody was talking about that look, that moment. So we have to talk about the Balenciaga boots. And just really beyond the boots, was there like a post-White House meeting? Was there a mood board? Was there like a decision where you're like, my handcuffs are off, let's go crazy, let's have more fun, let's be bolder? What was that conversation like? Like, I mean, really, the Becoming Book Tour, we talked and I had put together some images and things because it was different. You know, it was like, oh, we're going into a new era.

1:14:34And the book itself was like massive. I mean, it was a movement. It was unprecedented. So when we spoke about the tour, I mean, I just remember us being aligned. It was like pants, suits. because we had done so many dresses. First lady dresses. Yeah. Enough of that. There's so much about a dress or a skirt that defines the role of first lady and has for so many years. So it was like, we're not going to do any except for the Balenciaga. But we're not going to do any of that. We're going to do these strong suits and sort of updated pants and tops. And so really that was like the starting point and our conversation.

1:15:25And then I don't know if you want to say more on that. You want to be so reserved about the most fun part of your style evolution. And it was fun. And I will say it was really a lot of fun. It started with that. It was like, okay, we're free. Did you feel that liberation? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You can see it. You can feel it. And we talked about it. And also, I felt like I wanted my team to feel like they could play. I mean, for eight years, some of the most creative people work with me and we were in a bit of a box. It was a great box. I always, always felt good, always looked good. It was a well-managed box, not mad at the box, but it was still a box.

1:16:08A box. and knowing that when you have creative people who have, but you can't do this, you know, that that's no fun for them. Stifling. It's stifling. So I was like, okay, Mir, you know. Yeah, I'm pretty out there. So there's still things I feel like I can't do. I mean, I'm not, you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like I'm so free. I'm just totally free. Like, no. But yeah, I mean, it was cool. Like a lot of things that she hadn't worn and some that she had. I mean, she'd worn some fabulous suits in the White House too. I think it was just the whole energy of the tour and then just how beautiful everything was.

1:16:52Like every suit, every pant. But how'd you get her in those boots? Was it a conversation? Oh, yeah, the boots. Okay, the boots specifically. Did you have to encourage her? Yeah, she did. Yeah, she showed me the boots and I was like, Oh my God, they took my breath away. Mine too, right? Mrs. Obama, yes. But that whole look was like a big process. Like all of these looks, it's not like, oh, I went to the store, picked it up, threw it in a bag, came over. Like it's a whole process. So that Balenciaga, it was like Balenciaga spring 2019 show. I saw there was a version in blue and a version in yellow.

1:17:31And I was like, the yellow is kind of different. Like the yellow, there's something a little tacky about it in a way. I don't want to say the wrong thing. And that was probably the part she was like, she'll never go for the yellow. And by the way, this was like just for people that are following fashion. And this was pre any Balenciaga scandal, pre any Demna scandal. But so I got the look. It was a skirt and a top, actually. It wasn't a dress. And we fit that look like five times. Like there's certain looks that we would fit over and over and over again because— To get it right. To get it right.

1:18:08And also with the calendar, sometimes it would be like, maybe it's for this. And then that thing would happen and we went with something else. Right. So then we come into the next fitting. So it was like, maybe it's for this. So I really thought it was— Puzzle pieces. I never thought it was going to be worn. I was like, it's never going to be worn. I'm going to have to write them an email and be like, I'm so sorry. Like, we love it. I hope she can wear it in the future. But it just didn't—you know, she's got the letter. Yeah. I mean, I've written that before. But I had a different shoe with it.

1:18:32And I think at first, because I didn't want to pull that boot if it was just going to like, she was going to be like, no, I don't feel like putting that on. So I showed you a picture of it. And then I brought the boots at the next fitting. And the thing with those boots are you have to, you know, kind of slide them down, the fabric down, and then put your foot in and put it on like a pair of pantyhose. So it takes a minute, you know, and backstage before a big appearance, she didn't always want to be bothered doing stuff like that. So I just wasn't sure. There's many a joke. Like, you know, you get something pretty and then you put it on and then I'm like, this is ridiculous.

1:19:11Right. There's no way. So it's like three of us are - You said yes on the paper. On paper, you said yes. On paper. I was like, I didn't say no. Right. Okay. There were also those. I was like, I could do that. I could do that. But in your mind, are you thinking there's no way I'm getting these boobs - Pretty much Because I'm used to being disappointed. So I'm like, she's not going to do it. I'm going to get it. She's not going to do it. But I'll get it. Fine. So you're writing the email in your mind already. Regretfully, we couldn't get her across the line. Once she puts them on, she's not going to want to do this.

1:19:39So, but yeah, I brought them in. We tried them on. We prepped them. So we knew how to get them on. Because it's true. There's like a time limit. And once that time limit is up, the item is out the door. With your hopes and dreams. Exactly. So I'm like always looking at stuff and sometimes I don't get it right, but I'm like, okay, got to make sure I get this on quickly. Like a science experiment. Yes. And I will make fun of a crazy thing that I'm putting on. I'm like, look, this is ridiculous. It's like, and I was making fun of the boots, you know, all while we were putting them on the first time because it took a lot of work.

1:20:19I mean, because it would be better if they were all just the stretch material, which I love. And here she's always got a suggestion. And I love a boot like that. And I love a boot. Maybe need a line of boots at some point. I'm very into boots. I love boots more than I love stockings, right? So all throughout the White House, cold weather, Meredith knew that I wanted a boot, a tight-fitting boot that like hugged the leg. That was the inspiration for the second inauguration parade look. You know, I had these amazing boots that I wanted them to fit like a glove, right? So that they wouldn't add bulk to your leg.

1:20:59Because you did wear pantyhose the first inauguration. Which was ridiculous. I was freezing. I know you were cold. Freezing cold. So I was like, don't want to be cold anymore. So I was very into boots. So she knew she could get me on the boot, but it was just the putting them on that was nuts. Right. And I was like, do I want to have my hair on? And am I putting the skirt on first? It just didn't make sense. But once they got on, they were amazing, right? So I thought, okay, New York. New York is a place. Like, I wouldn't have done that. Sarah Jessica Parker, a.k.a. Carrie Bradshaw. That's the moment you break those boots out.

1:21:37It would be fashion over the top, right? Yes. I mean, I wouldn't do those boots in Colorado, right? I mean, you also think, yeah, you want to be special. But I was like, we can get away with this in the New York show. It's a big enough arena. The boots won't look like, you know, a sore thumb in the middle of a, you know, because I also think like that. It's like, is it too much? No, it stole the show, though. Even on that massive Barclays stage. And there wasn't even a good picture of the boots. I saw a lot of good pictures of those boots on the internet. Did you really? Yeah. The pictures weren't even that great.

1:22:12So I was surprised that people even really registered it because they were like from the side. You know, they weren't like posed really super, super high definition clear photos. So I was just like, people are even going to like see this? Like, I don't know. It's in our mind. It's in our memories. It's in there. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I know Barack is like, where are those boots? Anyway. Uh-oh. Mr. Obama enjoyed those boots as well. What did you do with those boots? Bring those back. Are those in a museum somewhere? Let's have all those in. Have some fun in those boots. But those are the, yeah. All the topical boots.

1:22:49Yes. We also need to talk about the Stuart Weitzman boots during Biden's inauguration because you told me a fun story about these boots. It's not really fun. It's kind of, well, it's a little dark. But I do think it's relatable in this moment. And I think just, it speaks to your practicality as a Capricorn. Yeah. But also this moment, that we're in, where we all are sort of feeling a certain uncertainty in the air that maybe you felt at the inauguration just after, we all know what happened, January 6th. And there was this feeling in the air of, we might have to run. So tell us the story behind the boots that you put her in that day and what was going through your mind.

1:23:38This is the psychology piece of your brain. Well, so, I mean, it's the whole look, first of all. So we did Sergio Hudson and he's amazing. And it was such, it was just that moment to me outside of any of the context of the politics. It was such an amazing moment for him as a designer. And I was so honored to be a part of it. But we had prepped that look around the demands and uncertainty of Inauguration Day anyway, which are really about being cold. So I had like multiple sweaters with multiple closures and multiple layers underneath and everything you could think of in case it was this temperature or that temperature.

1:24:23And then the shoe, I had Stuart Weitzman pumps or the boots. And when we were in the fitting and talking about it, she said to me, I want to be able to run. I was like, whoa, okay. Wow, that's intense. But I had already, you know, I already prepare a selection of options. So it was like I had them there, but just putting it into that framework. And I didn't go to the inauguration. You only went with one person, I think. And even that was by design, right? Yeah. For your own safety. Yeah. So that was different because normally we would always go. Like hair, makeup, me, we would always go to a big event like that and be in the hold in case there was any issues to touch her up and anything like that.

1:25:06And so, yeah, that was a crazy year. And she was wearing a mask as part of the inaugural festivities, which— Part of the ensemble. The ensemble. You knew a mask. But it really— And not to like, not minimizing or anything a mask, but it did sort of set the outfit off because— Nothing like a mask. It really did bring all the focus to the hair and the outfit. But without that mask, it would have— It would have just been a suit. It would have been good. It would have been good. But that really like, it just brought all your attention. to those elements in a way that hadn't happened before because that hadn't happened with her publicly before.

1:25:47So, FASC was custom made. Christy Rilling, shout out. Okay. Well, luckily, you did not have to run that day. Thank goodness. But we were prepared, you know, and that's half of, you know, the fashion story. One of the fashion stories was be ready, you know, be ready to be able to do the job, right? Yeah. And I would never in that moment say, I would never in that moment be like, oh no, you really have to wear this four inch stiletto because it's so gorgeous. Like I would never, do you know what I mean? Like, so I think that's why you lasted all these years, girl. That is one of the points of this conversation of like why these things matter more, why these are bigger, why you can't, we've talked several times about being bogged down by different elements, whether it's fashion or haters or whatever.

1:26:35Like, it's so easy to get bogged down by all of that. And the other part of the story was my comfort, right? And that's a big part of the fashion message to women, to all people, but to women in particular, because, you know, fashion can be fun, but it could also be a straight jacket, right? I mean, tiptoeing around in heels that hurt your feet, in clothes that are slipping off, in things that don't stay up, in corsets. And I've done it all. The Chainlink Versace gown, beautiful, one of my favorite gowns. That gown weighed about— I found out, and it's in the book, but I can't recall. 10, 15 pounds.

1:27:28You have to read the book to find people. Yeah, it's in there. And I had to wear that for three hours, stand in a photo line. I had to, you know, dance in. I had to, you know, it's not a one runway look. It's not a going on the red carpet and sitting at the Emmys. I mean, I'm working at a state dinner. And luckily, I'm in shape. So I have done it, you know, I've done it all, right? And I believe in that beauty and sometimes the impractical beauty of fashion, right? It is fun. But for most of us as women, I want to promote us feeling good in the clothes. I want to wear the clothes. I don't want the clothes to wear me.

1:28:17And I think I want to encourage women to make choices about fashion that are good for them. And I think that that's something that we did for eight years and beyond, that I didn't wear it. And if I didn't love it, if I didn't feel wonderful in it, because that's the way fashion disappears and becomes a part of your story. Like it's not wearing you. And so because of that, I could focus on kids. I could focus on the military families. I could focus on the people who were right there in front of me. I could hug somebody, wrap my arms around somebody, have somebody cry on my shoulder and not be worried about what I was wearing.

1:29:06And that helped with my authenticity, right? Because ultimately, I'm a woman who loves clothes, but I'm a woman who loves. And that, to me, Meredith helped me find clothes that let that shine through. And I want us as women to embrace that, to have that be the first thing that we think about when we put something on. Does it make us feel like we can love? Does it make us feel like we can just be our true selves? And I had to be that for eight years. I couldn't do the job wearing some costume or tiptoeing around in something that was on point but not me. and the brilliance of Meredith Koop was that, and that's maybe this is her psychology degree.

1:29:59I think a lot of it is her upbringing. Oh, that was a question I forgot to answer. You know, I forgot. But I think what Meredith did for me, what makes her such a special stylist, and I know she does this for other clients because I have friends who've worked with her as well, people of all backgrounds, all sizes, all occupations, is that she saw me. She learned who I was. She knows who I am. I think the show is something about Meredith. There's something about Meredith. I don't know how you, you are a magical unicorn in the world of fashion. Thank you both so much. What a beautiful fashion love story that you both have had.

1:30:43And I'm just so honored to be able to be part of documenting this moment in history, these many fashion moments throughout history. And Meredith, to introduce you to America. Let's go. You don't call me Mare. You don't have to use my full name. Something about Mare. Well, this has been such a delight. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Elaine. You're amazing. I love you so much. Thank you for this. Love you. Thank you.

1:31:19Thank you.