Dating Should Be about Pursuing Joy with Tracee Ellis Ross

27:42That's why you're here. imagine as a 17 year old and you're walking into a sock hop which i just use for effect but there are a lot of kids going what what is that what what are your socks have to do with anything uh you go but we used to have these sock hops or it's a school dance so imagine you're 17 years old and there's a bunch of girls in there and you go ask somebody to dance and they say no thank you Oh, terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Heartbreaking. And then you go to ask the next person and they say, no, thank you. Oh, no, I don't like this. But that's how it was. Yeah, that's hard. That's very hard.

28:20That's how it was. So the question you have to ask yourself as a guy is, do I just take what I have or do I take the chance of asking the next person and they say no? Yeah, the courage. Yeah. That's real. That's real. It's an important perspective for sure. Yes. and it is hard, but ultimately, you choose, right? It's scary, but, you know, so imagine the girl who is standing in the same sock hop with her shoes off now, all embarrassed because she's standing in her socks.

29:00See what I have to put up with. I have four siblings waiting to be asked and people are just passing her by. And they're a bunch of shy boys not even trying. Whereas a guy can decide. The decision is still a man's to make. Is it though always? I just think culturally that is what we say. Yes. I think culturally, that's what I was saying. The original question was, is it nature or nurture? I think a lot of it is the culture that gives that power to men. Now, it's a difficult power to have. because with power comes responsibility and hurt and risk and all that. But even to this day, as you said, Tracy, if a woman crosses that dance floor to ask, she's aggressive.

29:52Oh, oh, oh, oh. It's an unattractive quality. So now I either wait to dance or I don't dance at all. I don't necessarily agree with that. And I also would say, as a boy or a young man, And if a woman walked across the floor and asked me to dance, it was no way I was going to say no. Well, I think obviously there's all different kinds of people. There's all different kinds. I mean, and you know, then we're not even entering into the gender fluidity within this conversation. That is so much a part of what the younger generation is making sense of. And I think they're actually doing that really beautifully.

30:30I do too. And I've learned so much from the gender conversation and how it's expanded. I've learned so much about myself and what are the expectations that I didn't know were expectations about being a woman that I'm like, oh, I don't need to own that because I just thought that was a given, but now I know it's not, you know? But I think the societal norm, yes. I mean, I had a guy say to me recently, yeah, you can't make a man do anything he doesn't want to do. But culturally, you can make a woman do a lot of things she doesn't want to do because we're trained culturally to acquiesce in that way that that's our role, that we are.

31:07But I mean, this guy Ronan, I love the question because first of all, what I'll say to Ronan is, no one knows you better than you. That's right. And your friends can have all the suggestions in the world and some of them might be helpful ones and some of them might be ones you want to consider. And then I think the thing that you have to do is ask yourself, does that feel right for me? Does that really feel like what's going to get the growth to happen? And sometimes not dating helps people discover that. And sometimes dating is the thing that helps people discover that. And it's interesting when I think to your point, Craig, when you had your 32 list item, that was all about Kelly, right?

31:50I mean, and that's sometimes what we do. Forget you. I think that's what a lot of people do. It's like there's a list of things that I need in the other person. And a lot of them are superficial, like height and career and income and what school you went to, right? But it's all about the other person meeting a checklist. What Ronan's friends are suggesting and what I agree on is like, okay, there's that list about the other person, but what's your list? What is your 32-point list about yourself that you need to explore? And I think a lot of men, and I hate to generalize like that, but so many women are self-reflective in our groups.

32:42We live in conversation. We live in a social world where we're constantly analyzing ourselves and each other in our conversations. This is the dialogue of women, and men aren't doing that as much. I think the younger generation is doing it more. Yeah, I do see a lot more of it. I see a lot of it online and I really celebrate it. I think it's beautiful to see men have these deeper conversations about who they are and what they want. But the norm is no. And then the other thing to me is the invitation, right? It's like, yes, that's the cultural norm, but the invitation is really to remind everyone, men and women, to take into account who they are and what is important to you.

33:23You know, is somebody's height the most important thing to you? And why? Is it because of what other people see? Or is it because of you? You know what I mean? Like, what is it? And I think those reflective questions not only help you in dating, they just help you in life. So let's help Ron. What are some of these questions he should be asking himself? Well, you know, just like in developing your life, when I talk to young people, it's like, who do you want to be? What do you care about? and not what you want to do, not what title you want to have, but how do you want to show up in the world? What's important to you?

34:00Is it kindness? Is it empathy? Is it money? Is it money? Yeah, for some people, it is. For some people, it's security, financial security. Some, it's emotional security. Is it important for honesty? For me, for example, like I knew that you know, you date enough people, you date people that just cheat, right? And one thing I learned, luckily I learned it soon, I realized that cheating, if I was dating a cheater, that had nothing to do with me, you know, because like I am not inherently a cheater or a liar. I mean, I would never, I would rather just look somebody in the face and say, we should break up because I'm thinking about dating somebody else and I'm not going to hold you hostage while I go experience stuff.

34:51So I had to pick somebody who had the same values about that as I do, right? I didn't want to be married or date somebody that I have to worry about who you texting, what's on your phone, where did you go? That trust is not an anchor. That trust is not there. And because it was important to them, not because it was important to me. But they were the same. That they had the same quality, you know? That was way more important to me than what career, what, you know, because I had dated people who were broken, in my opinion, broken in that way. And it's like, that's not fun to me, you know, guessing whether my partner is faithful.

35:29Like, some people are good with that game. Yes. Some people that engages their chemistry. I don't know. And I have no judgment, really. Like, there's things for people, everybody has different values around those things and what's important. Some people don't want deep conversation. Yeah, yeah. Some people, that is not their thing. It feels invasive. It feels uncomfortable. Some people do, you know. I also think for Ronan, I have come to really know that there's a big difference in somebody that I am looking at dating as a partner and somebody that's somebody to enjoy and take what I like and leave the rest.

36:08And I learned as I've gotten older, like chemistry is not a relationship. Ooh, say that again. Chemistry is not a relationship. Yes. And love does not always include chemistry. Yes. And I'm somebody who wants both. Now, everybody's not like that. Some people really don't want sort of the passionate chemistry of intimate physical energy. That's not their thing. And you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who that's one of the ways they communicate love. You know, like for example, I have male friends. I have one that we literally text and it's not flirting and it's all clothes and fashion and shopping.

36:56And it's like a version of a relationship. He's the sexiest little thing. He's young. There's never been anything physical. But we have this amazing like exchange that happens all the time. And I don't have that with my husband. No. No. That sounds fun. But that's fun, right? It's like so fun and I'm single. Then I have a friend I go to the movies with. You know what I mean? And then there's people that, so, and obviously if I end up in a relationship with someone, those probably will not continue. You know, those different things. But my friendships will continue because you also can't expect your partner to be everything.

37:35That's right. All right. So this is perfect. So, you know, how do we help Ronan become a better subject for women? How do we help him make himself into a more attractive? Well, I think he sounds like he's attractive. He's having no problems dating. So what I'll say— But it's not sticking. Yeah, but that could be timing. That could be timing. That could be him. You know, that could be him just not choosing. He may not be ready to really settle down. The other big thing I'm going to say, look, I'm 52. I don't know. You know what I mean? Well, this program, it's in my opinion. You don't have to know.

38:15We just have our deeply held opinions about Ronan's life. Exactly. But this is what I'm saying. I might not meet a partner. Yeah. Okay. I'm saying, like, I know there's this assumption, right? And the assumption is if you don't, there's something wrong with you. I don't agree. I agree with you not agreeing with that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, no, I don't, that's, no. I am a great match and a great catch and all those things, but I also am going to wait for the right person. So to Ronan, I would say, let yourself own the fact that you want a relationship and you are going to do all the things you know how to do to walk towards that.

38:56And if it doesn't, if you don't find the right person, it's not a reflection of you. If you're doing all the right things, you know what I mean? I think that's the first thing I would say to Ronan. The second thing is, ask yourself the question, is dating helping you get towards what you want? Or is it actually distracting you because there's enough drama that you're not having the courage to say, this is what I want. I had a friend who was dating recently and the guy is out of a divorce and there's just some stuff going on and they really like each other, but he's kind of in a hallway. And she said, which I thought was the most courageous and beautiful thing, why don't you call me when you're out of the hallway?

39:38Yeah. You know? When you find a room. Yeah, when you find a room. And like, if you still think I'm somebody that could be in that room with you, then give me a call. I mean, I said to someone I was dating recently, like, I've come to realize that you are not a loving match for me. Yeah. As much as I love you. Yeah. And so I'm going to— That is a nice, cold-blooded cut right there. See, I'm all like, that's so true. Crazy like that. It's Mr. Nice Guy. I didn't hear from him for a while. I bet. He's still trying to figure that out. Yeah, well, he made his bed before when he wasn't showing up the way he should have.

40:17I gave him enough tries. And the crazy thing is for me, when it takes a lot for somebody to get inside my heart and feel safe, once you get in there, it's so hard for me to get you out. And I have to really give myself time. And that's the other thing I would say to Ronan about him sort of pining around this old relationship. Remember that in memory, you remember the good stuff. That's right. So it's not always the full picture. There's a reason that didn't work and you can trust that. And the right relationship, there's nothing you can do to make it stop. Like it will resurface itself if it's meant to be.

40:48Well, I think that's really great, solid advice. I think there are a lot of people who put too much pressure on trying to find everything in one person. I don't know if that's Ronan's issue, but if it is, I'd encourage him to be a little more open and to understand that relationships are long and there are also ebbs and flows, right? So I think sometimes people who date don't realize that in long-term relationships, you're gonna have deep, deep dips and you're gonna have - You're gonna have a bad year. You're gonna have a bad - I tell people and folks think that this is harsh. It's like, you're going to have a bad decade.

41:29Yeah. You know? I mean, I've been married to my husband for 30 plus years. I mean, the truth is, if you add it all up, even the year, if the odds were you're going to be married to your partner for 50 years and 10 of those years could be bad, you know? You'd sign up for it. You'd sign up for it. You'd sign up for it. You know? And that's really how it works out. That's the reality of it. But the reality is, is that if you choose to have a traditional marriage and you have kids, let me tell you, the years of 1 to 13 will be bad for you as an adult, you know, because it's beautiful, but they'll— Yeah.

42:10They'll take you for a loop, and you love them, and you don't want to hate them because they're cute. So you're going to be mad at the person who is sitting next to you, the other adult. The one who helped you make it. The one who helped you make it, you know? So that accounts for just a decade, right? I think people don't think about that as they date because they're trying to find the match that where all those 30 years are going to be blissful. Yeah, well, that's crazy. And it's like, that's just not going to happen. Can I just ask what some of the 32 things on the list were? Yes. Of the questions?

42:42Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Is that valid? It's okay. Is that valid question? You're okay to answer that? That is so good. It is good. That's a great question. It might help Ronan. It might help Roni. And me. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what they were. What was item 30? So I guarantee you Kelly still has the list. Oh, that's fantastic. We should get her on the phone. It was significant. But she has this one thing that I didn't have on my list, but I would put on my list now, is are you comfortable with me being able to stand alone in a room? Do I say that again? Are you comfortable with me being able to stand alone in a room?

43:28So to your point, you have this full life and you have this aura about you that if we're going somewhere, and the same with you, we go into a room, we might not be right next to each other. We're not going to be couple to couple. We're not going to be couple to couple. Are you okay with me standing alone? Because I can stand alone. I was like, oh, okay. I love that question. So that was her question to you or your question to her? That was one of her questions to me. That's a great question. That was the one that was not a category. I'm going to throw that at one of the people I'm dating right now.

44:03Yes. Look out, Mr. Whoever you are. Can you stand alone? That's a good question. It's so important to me, especially the way my family is, for you to be able to stand alone. So that's a great one. Yeah. And then there were sort of— That's a really good one. I love that question, actually. And then the one that we spent the most time on were, what are your deal breakers? What is it that you can absolutely not stand so I can make sure that none of them are like my favorite thing to do? Yeah, that's really smart. Yeah, yeah. And I will tell you, this was a - I just like the way you put it though, because it's sort of innocently sweet and it's not so hard over the head.

44:43Can you stand alone in a room? That's why I like the question because I would ask that all wrong. Right. That's just the thing. I would ask that same question. Are you an insecure trifling ass? That is exactly right. Are you so insecure that you can't handle a strong one to get the trait? I would ask it all wrong. He would be so awesome. Because I am a boss. I am a boss. I'm a boss. Are you okay? Be in the belly. Can you level up? Can you level up? And then he's running away going, I don't know. She's aggressive. Yeah, that was really helpful. Yeah, yeah. That's a good way to think about it. And the one thing to bring it back to Ronan, is it actually better for Ronan to learn more about himself by not dating than dating a whole bunch of people?

45:32Because in the question, he's asking the question, should I just not date? Well, I think it depends because I don't think we have enough information from Ronan, right? Like when he says distracting, what kind of distracting? So that's why I posed the question back to him of, you have to ask yourself some questions to figure out, is that the right advice for you? Are you learning enough from dating that's actually giving you the right information about yourself? Or is the dating actually taking you off course? Because you're getting invested in the drama of things aren't working out or are working out.

46:06Tracy, I think that's a good point for everyone. Are people dating with intentionality? You know, to learn something, right? or people just out there. And if you're not reflecting on why you picked somebody, you know, why the dinner went well, you know, why you laughed, and it is just happening to you without, you know, for men and women, for anybody of any sexual preference, it's like doing some self-assessment through the process, I would encourage, you know, because we're not taught to do that either in dating. I agree. You know, there's no— Did he call again? Exactly. Yeah. You know, where did you go?

46:47Where did he take you? And are we asking— What does he do? Right. Are we asking questions of how do you feel? Why did you feel that way? Why did this relationship end? I think that may be what Ronan's friends are suggesting. And he can do that and he can do both. Yes, he can. He can date and can—but be more reflective about the process. And I think that's true for everyone. Yeah. If you want to have a partner, you've got to know yourself. It's dating and having an internal conversation about why you're wise, your motivations, your history, your fears. What are you mimicking? Like, Craig, you were imitating what you thought your mom and dad had.

47:33And you did that more than me. I was more like, I don't know if I want to be like them. You know, loved them, loved their marriage. But I didn't date for, I want to do what my mom and dad did. And I think, Craig, you were more that kind of, this is the way it works. It was a pattern or a strategy. The strategy is you go to college, you find a job, you have some single life, and then you get married. And I was just sort of checking off the—I was following a strategy, and that's just not— Or an expectation to do that. I don't want any—I want this generation of young people to be more thoughtful.

48:18Yeah. And thoughtful from an internal compass is my thing. I always ask myself when I leave any situation, date included, how do I feel after? Do I feel, because sometimes you can think it's really nice in that moment and you leave. And I was like, wait, why do I feel small? Why do I feel more insecure? Or do you feel good about yourself? Another question I do like to ask people is how do you argue? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. That was on the list. That was on the list. That was 12. Yeah, that was on the list. That's a good one. That's a good one. You know, because like my siblings, we all, there's a way that my family argues that I'm comfortable with.

48:58And I've been, because I get loud and then it's done. Like I'm so straightforward. I'm not somebody who's going to like hold it. Like I'm going to say it. For some people, that's terrifying. Yes. Yes. Terrifying and sort of sends them into another place. So those are, I just think all those kinds of questions and asking them both of the other person and of yourself. And it's not always a deal breaker. It's just something to be aware of because it will be a thing that you will need to work on in the relationship. That's what makes relationship, marriage, partnership so hard because you are taking two independent people with a whole different set of experiences and saying, you know, forever and ever, amen.

49:43Marriage is hard. Yeah, it's, yeah. And it is reasonably hard, you know? It's the right kind of hard. It's the right kind of hard, but don't get upset when it's hard, you know? Well, I mean, you know, social media has made a myth of so many things because life requires you to show up. That's right, that's right. And if you want anything out of it, it's going to be work, you know, and relationships included. Someone told me this great just metaphor of, imagine that the people you're closest to, you're going to step on each other's toes. And so how do you work out the stepping on toes? Do you just blame them?

50:20That's right. Or do you figure out how to not step on each other's toes? Or is that just the nature of what a relationship brings? And then how do you work those things through and work those things out? And it's important for Ronan to understand that it's work. Yeah. Because sometimes maybe for men, or if they can be choosers or people in general, They think there's something wrong in the dating process. And it's like, nah, it's just what it means to be with somebody else. It's complicated. It's hard. It requires compromise. It requires you to change and adapt all throughout the process. You can't just come in and say, well, this is who I am.

51:02And these are my habits. So some of the list is important, but when you couple, you will not be able to find the exact right person who just balances you on all those 32 points. It's just, you know, then you will be alone and that's okay too. Or you're going to try and date yourself, which you don't want to do. And that won't be fun because you'll find out all the worst parts of yourself and you will be divorced from yourself. Do you as the man in your relationship, since we've been talking about it from our perspective, do you feel that you have continued to grow in your current marriage and that it asks that of you?

51:42Absolutely. Because it sounds like the list was my list, but the discussion that it brought continues to happen to this day. That's what's so beautiful about it. Because I can tell the growth comes because when we go to dinner on our date nights, we're talking as if we had just met. Like we are always talking and it's, and so I've just gotten better at being in a relationship. And, and, and that's what I. That's a really nice thing to say. Like I've gotten better at being in a relationship. That's why in our opinion, we're in, in my opinion, the show is like, let's teach everybody how to get better at this.

52:25Or to know that it's something, it's an important muscle to build. Perfect time to give Ronan some takeaways. Okay. Okay. And I'm going to— You're the master takeaway. You took notes. You take away. You're the only one to do it. Tell us. The self-reflection has to be at the top. Yes. Self-reflection has to be at the top. And Tracy, you said something that was really interesting. Do you even want to have a connection with— Chemistry and love, yeah. Chemistry and love, or is this just the, I'm not in love with you kind of thing? What's important to him in a relationship? What's important to him.

53:04And then the third thing that I had, and Mish, you said this, is you have to do the extra work. And not only being in the relationship, but trying to find a relationship. And can I reframe that? Yes, you can reframe that. Let's just call it the work. Because it's not extra work. That's just the work it takes. Okay. Do the work. Do the work. And I have one last thing. And there's no one right way to live a life. I mean, maybe, Ronan, you don't choose a life partner, or it doesn't happen, or you don't find it. There's so many ways to be happy, and it doesn't just look like marriage, two kids, and a house.

53:52There's so many examples of people who live full, wonderful lives that aren't following the quote-unquote traditional path. And I just want Ronan not to force something that isn't there. It's like stars aligning. It may not happen. So now the work is, how are you happy with the life that's right before you? That's what I want for my daughters. Yeah. That's what I'm raising them to be is like, how are you happy with how like is working out right at this moment? So that you're not living in regret or living in I wish or holding up your life, you know? And waiting. Waiting for it to happen, you know?

54:34In the meantime, Ronan, live. Yeah. Live, grow, adapt for your own self. And if there are those things that you are like longing to do with a partner, are there versions of that you can do with yourself? Which is the thing that I have really discovered in my life. I'm like, all right, so how can I do that on my own while still dating? Well, Tracy. What a fun conversation. I love you. I love you right back. Yeah. This was so nice. This was so nice. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, your vulnerability, your willingness to share, be open, always refreshing. thanks so see ya that's my currency that's what you get you do it you use it well thanks so much I'm back soon I will