Find Meaningful Connection with Logan Ury

28:29What it means is the more you're around something, the more it becomes familiar. And the more familiar it is, the more you really grow to like it. So it's why you might like a song after hearing it for a few times or why people end up dating someone in their freshman hallway. And so oftentimes, whether it's somebody at work or in your friend group, as you get to know them more, you see, wow, they really lit up when we played Scrabble together, seeing them at that concert, like they're just so full of life. And so the spark can definitely grow over time. So why do people get so locked into the spark?

29:03Is that something we heard? I think it's that sometimes we do feel the spark. And so it's real. It's not that the spark is fake, but I think that we misunderstand it. So the second myth of the spark is that if you feel it, it's a good thing. And so this is a very common thing that's happened to me, happened to a lot of other people. It's you meet someone and they're very sparky and you think, oh, we have the connection. Our dynamic is amazing. And then your friends are like, hmm, I also felt a spark with that person. So they're just the spark club. They're very sparky. It's not about you, girl.

29:37Right. He's sparky with everybody. I don't know your partner, but I think someone at this table is married to a person who's very sparky. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Uh-huh. You know, and I'm wondering, Did you ever have that experience in early dating where you were like, oh, he's sparking with other people too? You know, I don't think, I think like a lot of people, I didn't pay attention, right? I mean, you see this, you feel the spark, you think. It's all about me, right? He's sparking because I'm so fabulous. It's the story we do want to tell ourselves. I've brought out the spark. It's like you think you're going to turn a cheater into an honest person.

30:13You know, I also wanted to make sure I married an honest person that in their own right wasn't a cheater. Right. Right. Because a lot of women think, I'm going to make you love me. So I shouldn't say women, but people go after the hard to get person. That's exactly part of this. And it's like, nah, you're not going to turn somebody into something that they aren't. But I think we like to think that love is about, I have this power to make him or her just believe in me. And we're attracted to that story that we tell ourselves about ourselves. Right.

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36:16and so i the spark is real and i've definitely felt it with a number of people and it feels great but what we need to remember is that some people are just very sparky and they give that to many people and in fact oftentimes we're feeling these butterflies but what they actually are are alarm bells of anxiety so these this anxiety is going off in your in your head in stomach basically being like, does he like me? Does he not like me? Sometimes he likes me, sometimes he doesn't. And sort of the hot and cold not knowing can feel very exciting. And I definitely have memories before I was with my now husband where like I would get so obsessed with people because of that feeling of do they like me or not?

36:54And then we think that that's so exciting. And then when we find someone who's more secure, who really, as you said about Mr. Obama said, you're cute, you're funny, I like you, let's go out. That is very secure. But if your whole life you were used to people who pull away and you're used to the chase, that can feel boring. Oh, we need to, wait, wait. We just need to let that point rest so that our listeners and our YouTube people, because that's y 'all out there, you know, that there's all this internal dysfunction going on. Butterflies, that's not love. That's crazy. It's true. And so if you're always used to somebody pulling away, when somebody just presents themselves as secure, you're not used to it and you think that it's boring, but those truly make some of the best long-term partners.

37:42So Logan, let's back up a bit. So is that why Lily or people like Lily are attracted to the wrong person maybe because they're misinterpreting these butterflies like we all have because this is the first time I'm hearing this kind of analysis. Yes, that's what I would say. Because my brother lives in a cave. I mean, I'm a one, I've been married for a while. Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, so what I heard in the letter is that Lily meets these sparky, outgoing, life-of-the-party guys and then it fizzles. And so it's like you start really hot and heavy, and then over time it fades. And instead, I'm a huge fan of the slow burn.

38:21And the slow burn is somebody, they may not be initially the most charismatic person, but as you spend time with them, you like them more and more over time. And so sort of similar to your story, my husband and I met, and we met at a lunch, and I definitely felt connected to him and interested in him, but really more saw him as a friend. Wait, you met him in the wild? Yes, we did. You met your husband in the wild. It's true. It can still happen. That's great. And in fact, I saw him on a dating app and I said no. Because he had these photos of him with the backwards hat. And I was just like, oh, that bro, he's not for me.

38:59But then when I met him in real life, he wasn't like that at all. Those are just the only photos he had. Because sometimes guys don't take that many photos of themselves. And so we met at this lunch. And then I was like, oh, I'm trying to learn this statistical programming language. And he's like, I just dropped out of a math PhD. I can teach you. And so over a year, as I was chasing some other guy, we got closer and closer. And then at the end of the year, I was like, wait, he has all the characteristics I'm looking for. Not this other guy that gives me butterflies, but actually makes me feel really insecure.

39:31And so I was kind of like, hey, I don't have plans this weekend. And that was the beginning. Well, how much in this generation, because with technology and the use of phones, people are used to that instant hit. They're so used to getting immediate rewards for little investment. And so I think that's a cautionary tale to young people to kind of be mindful that if you're being trained because of your reliance on technology and social media to have that instant feeling acknowledged to get that every time, that that's the opposite of what you're looking for when you're trying to find your person, when you're trying to find someone stable that you can count on.

40:17But what is the research show? So when I was researching some of this stuff with Gen Z, a thing that kept coming up is I can get anything instantly. Like I don't have to go to Blockbuster to rent a movie. I can just get it immediately on Netflix or any other program. or if I want food delivered, I just open DoorDash or Uber Eats and it comes immediately. So you're right. There is a sense of immediate gratification, but kind of what we're talking about with risk tolerance, so many things in life you have to invest in. So you don't just pick up the guitar and know how to play it. You get good by practicing over time.

40:52And the same thing is true with dating. I think dating is a skill and you have to invest in it. And also people take time to open up. So I feel so lucky. I've been with my husband for 10 years and I do feel like I saw something special that maybe other people didn't see. And I kind of feel like I won the lottery, which is such a good feeling. And I think if I had only gone after the people that were so immediately sparky in life of the party, I really would have missed out. And so the third myth of the spark is that if you start with a spark, it's definitely going to last. And that's not true.

41:28That spark can burn out very fast. And I know couples - As fast as it starts. Right. You're with the wrong person because you met the quote unquote right way. And I - Explain that. Sure. So it's like, I think people are very romantic and they love the we met story and they want to tell everyone at the wedding. he saw me out of the corner of his eye and he missed his flight to come up to me. And people want that rom-com story. But if you're together for 50 years, the day that you met is 0.0055 % of your total relationship. So what's romantic isn't how you met, it's that you met at all. And I think people should get over these we met stories.

42:14Say that again, Logan. Who cares how you met? Get over those how we met stories and really focus on putting yourself out there, being the kind of person who would get chosen, being reliable, being an honest, solid person and taking risks to go after what you want. And that's why I think if dating apps are working for you, that's great. And it's not about, oh, that's not romantic. I want to meet out in the wild. It's focus on meeting. You jumped to my next question because caveat, at. I haven't been on a dating app and I don't really know how they work. But it feels like, are these apps changing the way people are trying to develop relationships?

42:58Well, one of the biggest things that I see is I find that there's sort of three different main dating tendencies that hold people back from finding love. So one of them is the romanticizer. And these are people probably like Lily, she said she's a romantic, where they're so focused on the we met. They want the soulmate. I'll know it when I see it. And they're just so focused on the story that when they meet someone who looks different from what they expected, or they don't have the romantic story, they say, well, that must not be my person and they move on. And then the second type is called the maximizer.

43:30And these are people who come to my coaching with a spreadsheet and they say, I want the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl, the height of this girl, help me find someone like that. And it's like, they're trying to Frankenstein put together this dream person, and they're obsessed with finding the perfect person and not understanding that it's much more about building a great relationship versus finding the perfect person. And then the third type is the hesitator. And these are the people who are not dating at all because they say, I'm not ready yet. I need to lose weight. I need the better job.

44:04And they're just holding themselves back. And so this middle one, the maximizer that I mentioned, I am seeing more of that, where people feel like, if I just keep searching, I'll find perfection. And then they turn 40 or 50 and they're like, damn, I wish I had been with the person I dated at 25, because they're now happily married with kids. And I feel like I had unrealistic expectations and I missed the boat. And one thing I say a lot of times to young people in my life, to my daughters, to people generally as somebody who's been married for 30 plus years, You know, the building of relationships, the building part is important.

44:42And in this world where we want everything quick and fast and permanent, I overemphasize the hard work of building in a relationship that leads to lasting, meaningful love. It is work. Yes. It is not instant. It is not perfect. And I think we have a lot of romanticizers out there who believe that a good marriage is always happy and that there is always spark. Right. And there's always instant connection. And people are also romanticizing the whole process because I know there are a lot of young people who spend more time thinking about the wedding. You know, they have that's one day of your life.

45:34That's one day of your life. And these days of the wedding experience is now months and months. Right. It might be three or four. It might be, you know, because now you've got two dresses and you've got the bachelorette thing and you've got the proposal. I mean, marriage has become an industry that people are Pinteresting, you know, and they're not thinking about the work, you know, because it all feels like this should be fun. And I'm more concerned about the dress. And so, you know, when you're not thinking about the building part, I also find that people run into problems in their relationships, even when they choose, and they want to back out.

46:15because it's like, well, this wasn't part of the romance. The fact that we have to learn how to argue or that we have to learn how to live together and that's a difficult thing. And sometimes you're not gonna like the person that you live with and that's part of it. And you have to raise kids together and that changes the whole dynamic. We have a lot of people who don't wanna do the building work because they're still holding on to the romance and the spark. I say this all the time, marriage is hard. and it's hard for the best, in the best marriages which I am lucky enough to be in one. But I don't want people to look at my relationship and think it's all glamour and glory, which is why I talk about it being hard so that people don't quit on it.

47:03And I think that has to start with the dating process too and how we think about picking people. I love everything that you said and the research really supports it. And by the way, it's funny, A few years ago, I did a big survey with all of my newsletter subscribers, and I said, who are your relationship role models? And the top two answers were John Krasinski and Emily Blunt, and then Mr. and Mrs. Obama. You guys are doing great as relationship role models, because I think in your book and the way you speak, frankly, people understand that not every day is the most romantic butterflies and roses of your life, and that there's going to be highs and lows.

47:40I think that's just such a healthy thing to set for people. And what the research shows is that in relationships, there's two ways that you can approach it. So one is called the soulmate mindset. When I meet people, when I meet the right person, it'll be so easy. Because we're soulmates, it'll be effortless. And the other one is called the work it out mindset. If you're in a relationship, it will take work. And that's how you'll create this great relationship. And people with the work it out mindset have more successful relationships because when they hit that inevitable rough spot, they're ready for it.

48:13They don't say, well, you must not be my soulmate. And so I think you really embody this idea of the work it out mindset and setting expectations that there's going to be high and low years of marriage. And for me and my friend group, we're all kind of new parents. And my friends are texting me like, I feel so disconnected from my husband or we haven't had sex in a long time. And you're like, yep. I'm like, yeah, this is called a recalibration period. Because there's a whole new being in your couple. You have a new person, yeah. Who's sucking the life out of your relationship. Out of you, yeah.

48:45And I think just understanding like life is long and hopefully your relationship is long and this doesn't have to be the most romantic year of your life. You're figuring out what it means to be parents and just having this long-term view. And I think that that is something that maybe people are struggling with in society is you subscribe to Hulu and then you cancel when you watch your show and you have this job and then you quit. And so if nobody really has that long-term thinking, it is scary to say, I'm going to commit to somebody for 50 years through ups and downs, but it's so worth it. Yeah.

49:19You know, a lot of people joke about the fact that it's like, yeah, there are 10 years when I didn't like my husband, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's an overstatement to say, look, there will be, we've been married for 30 years and we will be married forever. So let's say we live long. It will be 50 plus years. And if 10 of those years were bad, anybody would take those odds. But people don't tend to think in terms of odds and numbers. Of course, you're going to have years. If you add up the days and the hours where you are struggling to find that connection, that is a normal experience. You would have that if you had a, if you live with your best friend for 30 years, 10 of those years you would hate each other, you know, but you don't throw out a relationship or marriage because of a couple of bad years.

50:15And I think more married couples need to talk more honestly about what marriage really is because I just, again, see too many young people quitting on relationships. Not, you know, like Lily, she's the maximizer and the romantic. She's a little bit of all of it. And it is true that, you know, you will end up alone. and that's okay too if that's a choice you make but if it's something you want then there's gonna have to be a lot of compromise and we talk about this through the dating process I think it would be a useful kind of perspective I will never forget the images and the stories that came out during and after Hurricane Katrina the devastation felt so raw and real and you could feel that we were living in a historical moment that might change how we view the world forever.

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56:00Okay. Right? Yeah. And I want to take a little bit of a turn here to help some of those folks and help the guys. Because, you know, Lily, we're going to answer your questions. But when I met my current wife, I was divorced with two young kids that I had to raise. So I was not a romanticizer. I was... Or a maximizer. Not only a maximizer, but I was downright trying to set traps to figure out if the person would fall into them. Ooh, I want to hear more. I know. It's just awful. We agreed to get together and put together a list of things. You mean we being who? My current wife, Kelly, and I, when we met, and the meeting story is too long to tell, but we met.

56:59And once we decided to start dating, I was very matter of fact. Look, I've got two kids. She'd never been married, never had kids. I got to make sure this is going to work before we start spending too much time on this. Mish knows this story. And I said, okay, you bring your list of issues, deal breakers, whatever, you know, relationship. Non-starters. Non-starters. And I'll bring mine. And so we agreed to meet off-site at a place that was a house that was big enough for each of us to have our own rooms. Is this your first time meeting? No. Oh, okay. I know, really. That's an intense first date.

57:42It wasn't our first date, but it was close. I mean, it was long distance over the phone for about a month. And then I was like, well, let's just figure out if this is going to work. And we met in a place that had a big house where we could be on our own. So if we ended up not liking each other, we'd be separate but equal, right? And I had a list of about 30 things. and she had a list of about four things. I like her. I was mad. I was hot. He whipped out his scroll and put on his wizard hat. But it was because I had been through a divorce and all this stuff. His magic ball and his beans. And I'm setting this up.

58:29You can tell I'm not only the slow burn. I mean, I'm like, you know, it's like starting a fire with two sticks, right? I mean, that's how slow this was going. But my question is for guys who are in that position or people, but I'm really thinking about guys out there because it feels like guys handle the situation completely different from women. Can you talk a little bit about how you would coach a guy in a situation like that on finding the right person? I was fortunate. Kelly didn't think. She humored me with my list. list of 30 things. She should have run screaming out of that house. She should have run screaming away because but she's like, well, I mainly put categories and you have specific things and all of your things can fall into my category.

59:25I thought that was very clever of her. But I said I set these traps all the time. Even after we had this discussion, I was always waiting for something negative to happen. The other shoe to drop. The other shoe to drop. So what would you, how would you coach him? I'll give some advice to Craig in the past. So I find that as people get older, especially after a divorce, they say, I've waited this long, she better be perfect. And instead of thinking, oh, I've gone through this experience, I'm going to compromise more because I've seen how hard it is, we actually add to the list. So I'm not surprised.

1:00:02And it's also, having 30 things on your must-have list is also a way of putting a wall up. And I see this all the time now on social media, people talk about the ick. Oh, I got the ick from this person because they wore socks with sandals or this is how their bedroom was set up. And it's like, that's just a way to push someone away because it's a silly thing, but it's a way to not connect. And so it sounds like in that situation, you had this really long list and you thought that that list was armor that would protect you from making another mistake. But it sounds like Kelly had a short list that was probably really clear.

1:00:36Like, these are my must-haves. These are my deal breakers. And as long as I meet these things, the other stuff doesn't matter. And so she really approached this with wisdom and what I try to tell coaching clients to do. And so for Lily - And you were a fool. I didn't say it, but. So for Lily, I would say she needs to get clarity on what matters. So I heard her say, I'm afraid of settling. That's such a bad word among my clients. I don't want to settle. I don't want to give up. It's not about settling. It's about knowing these are the must-haves. I'm going to double down on those. Does he want kids?

1:01:13Does he want a relationship? Is he honest? And then everything else, you can move to the nice-to-have category or the pet peeve category. And so double down on the things that matter and be relentless about them and then compromise on the things that don't. And so I might have sat down with you and said, of this list of 30, what really matters? And we might have had a few things that Kelly had. And then maybe she didn't have all 30, but you didn't need all 30. And I think in this age of people getting what they want when they want it, there are a lot of crazy lists out there among people who have not been divorced, among men and women.

1:01:54You know, when you just hear what people are looking for in this life, especially in this day and age, just like in our politics and, you know, in so much of where we are as a country, as a people, folks are looking for some kind of perfection out there that is just unrealistic. And they need to look in the mirror because they are likely not perfect. So you can't be asking for something that you can also offer. Yeah. So Coach Uri. Yeah, let's do it. Some tips, a game plan for Lily. Okay. Lily, listen up. You've been dating this way for a while, and you know that you want to get married and have kids based on the letter.

1:02:43So you really need to shift your approach to dating if you want to get different results. And so right now it seems like she's almost going after this prom date type person. Fine, you want to dance tonight away with them. And she really needs to shift for looking for a life partner. And so what that means is recognizing different traits. And so I have this tool called the Post Date 8. And these are eight questions you ask yourself after a date. So these are things like, what side of me did they bring out? How did I feel in my body around them? Did I feel heard? Did they make me laugh? And how that helps you is instead of going on the date and thinking, wow, this person is really hot or having a checklist.

1:03:22Do they have a good enough job? Are they tall enough? You're actually paying attention to your body. Do I feel comfortable with this person? Am I having fun with this person? And there's a psychological research that shows if you are looking for certain things during an experience, you pay more attention to those things. So by having to answer the questions afterwards, you will pay attention to how you feel in your body. And this honestly is advice that people can use in all aspects of your life. So what I would say to Lily is get over the spark, go after the slow burn. One of the best ways to do that is to take the post-date eight questions after a date.

1:03:55I love the post-date eight questions. The post-date eight. Yeah. Thank you. And what you'll find, Lily, is that you'll see over time, oh, wow, I'm starting to like this person even more and more. They're really opening up to me. And so what you're looking for is a trend over time of liking them more. And when you feel that spark with someone, that's exciting, but also be a bit skeptical of it. Are you actually feeling chemistry or are you feeling anxiety? I would also recommend that she gets super clear on what she wants. So if she wants marriage and kids, talk about that earlier on. Because if you and the guy are not on the same page, you should be moving forward.

1:04:31That's something that I hear from young people. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to seem too thirsty. I don't want to scare them off. You say what? I totally get why it's scary because you're like, I don't want to come on too strong and then they'll run away. But the truth is that if they're looking for the same thing, then it won't be a problem. And so we actually did cool research on this at Hinge where we had different profiles. We showed them to 12 ,000 people. And some of the profiles would say, I'm looking for a long-term partner, something cuter. Like I'm looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with.

1:05:04And then the other one would say, you know, I'm looking for somebody kind and adventurous. What we found is that if you're looking for something serious and long-term, you're more likely to message the person who is. But maybe even better, if you're not looking for something long-term, when you see that somebody is, you're less likely to message them. And so what it means is it just makes dating more efficient. You're basically weeding out the people that don't want what you want. And so yes, maybe it does send somebody running for the hills, but they should They should run. They should run. They should run.

1:05:33They were not your person. And so I think so much of the work that I do is for people is saying, be bold and be willing to turn the wrong people off and the right people on. And so you don't have to put on your profile, like, if you're not interested in marriage, swipe left. Like, that's the wrong energy. But on a first date, it might sound like, I've been dating for a while. You know, I recently became an aunt. I'm looking to get married and have kids. What about you? What are you looking for? What I did was I was calm and I was modeling that kind of honest answer. And the person might say, I just got to have a long-term thing.

1:06:07I'm just looking to have fun. And then you can say, great, well, let's enjoy this drink and I wish you well. So be willing to turn some people off because that was not your person. Yeah, love that. Go ahead. No, I would just say that, you know, that's great. That's great, direct, clear advice, not just for Lily, but I think a lot of people are going to hear themselves and be able to take something from that. I think overall, it's that I hear building. Building is the key to a good relationship, a long-lasting relationship, if that's what people are looking for. And I always say it's okay if that's what you don't want, if that's not what you want.

1:06:54And not everybody wants to be married. Not everybody wants the hard work of a relationship. That's another thing I try to tell young people is sort of ask yourself that question. Is this what you want? Marriage isn't for everybody and it doesn't have to be. I find it a beautiful experience. I think it's worth it. I encourage the young people in my life to try to do that work. But it's not for everybody and it doesn't have to be. But if you are interested, it's a slow burn and it requires work. Right. And nothing is perfect. I have to ask you, how optimistic or not unoptimistic are you about dating moving forward?

1:07:42Because there's, I mean, we've done a lot of talking. The whole, just the whole endeavor of dating broadly. Just the whole endeavor. How are you feeling about it? I feel like people need a reset. I think people are moving in the wrong direction in certain ways and they really do need this reset. So for example, I'll talk to a lot of people in their 20s and they'll say, oh, dating apps have ruined dating. And then they tell me the things that are going on. And I'm like, that happened before dating apps. That happened on Sex and the City. And so in some ways, dating is just hard. You are putting your full self forward and then somebody is choosing to accept you or reject you and that really hurts.

1:08:18And so I think that we sort of need to build up this muscle around putting ourselves out there, being willing to be rejected, shooting our shot. And so the thing that really worries me the most is when people just say, I'm not dating. And I feel like in our country, there's sort of a lack of nuance. It's like, it could be I'm focusing on work, but I'm open to meeting someone, but it feels very like, you know, on-off switch, no dimmer. And why can't it just be like, I'm open to meeting someone instead of having this identity of I'm not dating. And so there are things that worry me, but I think that we can get back on track.

1:08:54Good stuff. Thanks, Coach Uri. Thank you. This was so fun. Thanks for having me. I think it's terrific. I think you are amazing, smart, clear, concise, and you've done the research. So you've got facts behind your advice. It's really great having you on. Thanks so much.

1:09:34Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions? Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?

1:10:20Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.

1:11:10For more great advice, search for Happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.