Follow The Fun with Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers

24:40well I want just to flip the script a little bit because I am given who you two are I am curious to know what were little uh Bowen and Matt like what were you guys like as is as kids because I don't know whether do we have a nerdy kid and a jockey kid I don't know I think that's a pretty decent assessment, refraction of us. I just remember starting out pretty precocious and then I think being a boy, you start to rein it in a bit and you just try to start to fit in. I was always a nerd and I feel like I tried to hide it and mask it for a couple years in middle school and then I just kind of let it all out in high school.

25:25What about you? I can't hold it in any longer. He did some theater in high school And I remember when I was in high school, I was all sports all the time. I was a very serious track athlete. I played baseball for several years. I never really got into football. And it's actually interesting. My dad was such a football guy. And years later, I asked him, why didn't you ever throw the football around with me? And he was like, I mean, if I'm honest with you, I didn't think kids really needed to be playing. Yeah. And then years later now, we hear so much about what goes. Our dad was the same way with him.

25:57We were both sporty kids. there just wasn't much for me with the beginning of Title IX. But you did. She did everything I did. Yeah. In our backyard. But there wasn't organized sports. That's so interesting. I remember one of my formative memories was my dad and I, we didn't have a boys winner track team for whatever reason. And I was so serious about it that we actually got one going. And I just found out it's still going. And I think they even won like league championships. So that was one thing I can look back on and be like, that was like a positive impact. But in high school, all I wanted was to audition for the swing choir and be in the place.

26:35I remember they have no idea what I would give as Conrad Birdie. But I was too closeted. And so I remember being a happy kid and I have amazing parents. And I grew up on Long Island and I had a very happy day to day in that I was given so much. But there was a pit, I believe, in probably both of our stomachs because being closeted at that time was extremely hard. I remember like, this is when, you know, the FAG slur was being used like on the radio. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's, and so it kind of - And talk about comedy. I mean, it was at the, you know, that was just common. Homophobia was comedy at that time.

27:13That was comedy. Absolutely. And so it's kind of like, I think we both know a little bit of what it's like to feel like who I am is something that, it's a question of whether I'm going to be embraced for it. Yeah, absolutely. And so anything that could reveal something about who you really are was, it felt dangerous. Yeah, yeah. But I think about constantly, like, would we have been friends when we were little? I was just thinking about that. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I think we would have. So now you're getting into my area of inquiry because I heard that you guys were friends in college.

27:48Yeah. But you weren't friends first. I mean, help us understand how you guys got to be close. Well, college is interesting. I feel like you guys keep up with your college friends, right? Yeah, a couple of them. Yeah, but I started out liking them. Oh, interesting. It wasn't dislike. I think what it was, was it was a situation where I remember the first time I ever saw Bowen. I have this thing where it's bizarre, but the people that end up being meaningful in my life, I remember the first time I saw them. It's weird. And him, I remember coming around an elevator bank and we were going to see a comedy show.

28:23I remember the elevator. And I saw him and he looked back at me. And I just remember it was this moment of like, that's a person to me. Yeah. And I think maybe because of the self-consciousness at that time, we were 18 years old in college and still both closeted. It's a little nerve wracking, any social interaction at that time. And so we went to go see a comedy show at our school, which was our school's comedy show, our sketch comedy show. And I remember looking up on stage and being like, I think I'll try to do that. and it will make me take a, it will encourage me to take a step towards who I am.

28:58And he had already been in the improv group at the school. So there was Dangerbox Improv and Bowen was the one gay in that group. And then I got into that sketchbook. I was, so I was out in high school and then I was back in the closet right before college through all this like mess. And then, so then yeah, at the time of meeting Matt, I think we were both synced up in our timeline. We were both newly comfortable saying we were gay. And then we were in these comedy groups in which we were the only person that identified that way. And so their way of sort of, I think, maybe breaking ice was like, well, be best friends.

29:33You know, do it. Like, perform for us. We would often be put in situations where it almost felt like tokenized because we were like, sort of like, oh, these are our gay ones. and not with any malintent on their part. But it just didn't feel like that would be the reason why we'd definitely be best friends until. There was this like, there was this like rationale on a collective level from everyone around us. There was like, you guys would get along great. It's like when your parents like set you up with someone. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You're like, I feel like it's not gonna be. Just because you think.

30:08But then quickly it was like, they were right. We both were off book on all the same pop music. Like it was, I remember we'd have like parties after the sketch comedy and improv shows. And we would just tear it up to like Super Bass by Nicki Minaj. We would tear it up to like any Taylor Swift song still to this day. I mean, we just, we speak a very similar language. I feel like the bit that I always say is like, I feel like he's my twin that was born in a different part of the world on a different day. And Bowen, you grew up in Brisbane. I was born in Brisbane, six months. Basically when I was clear to fly, We moved to Ontario and Montreal and then Colorado to New York.

30:52And I've been in New York since. So high school was where? Was Colorado. Aurora. Yeah, yeah. But that was a very interesting place to grow up where like, it felt like you were just informed by like a very, I don't know. Like, again, I keep saying this word horizontal way of like being with people was like great public schools in Colorado, where I'm from at least. And just felt like I was given like the latitude to like figure stuff out about myself that then would like make way for like finding out who I really was. And then by the time I got to college, it was like the groundwork had been laid.

31:32What were your parents like, each of you? Mine are really hardworking immigrants who sacrificed everything. and I remember coming to the States for the first time in 1999 and we met with our immigration lawyer and we went through the process of getting our green cards and it was just, back then it felt like so much bureaucracy. Yeah. And they were always people who reminded you in the gentlest way they sacrificed a lot. But they were never like, this is us putting pressure on you. Like they, I think, again, laid it all out for us just in the way that we grew up in Colorado. It was like, And here's like, here's like an open horizon of what you can do in life.

32:17And, and cause, cause they would vocalize things like, well, we know you like to perform, but you know, it's, it's really hard and there's not a lot of stability. And especially if you're Asian and all these things. And I, I internalize that as a way of saying, oh, that's off limits. Let me go and be pre-med in college. And that's what I did. And so I think, I think there were tacit ways in which they were like, trying to encourage me to find myself, but hedging a little bit because they were just trying to be protective. Well, and also, you love your kids. You want to make sure they can eat. You know?

32:47Exactly. And the world is mean and ugly out there. So just in case, just have something in your back pocket. Totally. But it's fortunate to have parents. Was it the same way for you, Matt, that you had parents that were kind of encouraging whatever you wanted to do? Or did you feel like there was an expectation? I think once I became more of an adult and I got to college, I'll never forget. So I started NYU and I actually was, I was full jock at that time. I was on the track team and I got through a week of it. And I remember realizing I was not, because I had done an amazing, I'm a code-twitching icon.

33:25I was prom king in high school, which was a fight because like I am, you know, pretty gay. And so like I was like, you got to watch the show Overcompensating. Yeah, yeah. He really taps into just how much drag you do to try to, and that was me. And so I remember I, the phone, I remember I was in my dorm room and the phone was shaking in my hand because I was going to call my dad and say I was quitting the track team. And, but don't worry because I'm going to do something else. You know, I'm going to try to. I'm going to go punch a wall. Yeah, right. I'm going to eat fire. My parents are lovely.

34:04My dad is like the life of the party. my mom is truly the most joyful, effervescent person. She is a star. And they've never, on that phone call, were like, we're disappointed. My dad was like, you have to do what's going to make you happy. Like you're 18 years old. You know what I mean? Like you're living in New York City. And so from that point on, and really never did they ever say, well, did you ever think what to do if it didn't work out? Even throughout my 20s, when I was waiting tables six days a week, You know, they never were like, hey, maybe the sketch comedy thing should be called into question by a 27-year-old man.

34:44You know what I mean? Maybe they should have. Yeah. But they never did. And that's not to say that I didn't have, like, you know, the strife that comes with any, like, parental-child relationship, especially when there's a lot of inner strife and everyone's figuring out how to relate to each other. But in terms of the way that they raised me, I'm the luckiest. It is amazing how kids put a lot on themselves because they think they know what their parents are thinking. Both Craig and I were kind of like that because we came from a working class background and we made a lot of choices assuming that our parents couldn't afford something or would say no to something.

35:28I remember. Or we didn't want to disappoint them because they're such wonderful people, of course. And I cut you off, but I wanted to get back to your parents. When you came out to them, what was their reaction? And how did they sort of help you through that or not help you through it? Because they sound like wonderful people. We're sitting here and it's like a lot of this conversation is reminding me how different we are. Yeah. Like, I feel like we have such an energetic connection and like peace in the pod, but we have such different backgrounds. It's crazy. I love that. Yeah. But anyway, sorry.

36:13You should go. So I came out, well, I didn't even come out in high school, but in high school, you know, there were revelations. And so then my parents sat me down. They were like, you know, where we come from in mainland China, like this doesn't happen. And so this is a problem to us and we are sort of oriented as problem solvers. So we're going to figure out how to solve this. And then they found some therapists basically. And so that we would drive down, there was this ultimatum that I could go to school at NYU where my sister was and that she would sort of watch over me or I could stay and stay and stay with them.

36:52And I was like, I'd rather go to NYU. And then little did they know, it's gayest school in the country. But the ultimatum was like, I would like, you know, I would go with my dad to these conversion therapy sessions over the summer before I started college. And you know what? Like you're on this fault line in your life and you go, good a time as any. Maybe they know something I don't. Truly. You trust your parents. Yeah, why wouldn't you? And you know that they're not trying to hurt you. They're trying to figure it out. Of course. And I'm this like 17-year-old kid who had never seen his dad cry before, but he was coming home every day from school to his parents sobbing over dinner every night.

37:36And I was like, I have to do something. I have to like acquiesce in this way in order to like keep the family together. Yeah. You know, because to not disappoint. To not disappoint. Yeah. To like not - Or protect them from their own emotions. Truly. Right? Right. And by the way, like, we can just fast forward to now where like, you know, there was just this moment back in the closet and then it was meeting people like Matt that sort of brought me out of it. And then it was a lot of tumult in terms of like trying to come on like common ground with them. Yeah. And it took many years. But like now it's, I mean, it gives me a lot of hope and it gives me this model for how to like really let things ferment over time and not all hope is lost with these things.

38:25Like I never expected to be in this place with them now where they're asking about my personal life. They're truly genuinely curious. They're proud. Like last year at the Culture Awards we like They came. We were dressed in like sequined chaps and like in a cowboy hat. The two most wanted by Beyonce and Miley. But like Couldn't have been Gary. Couldn't have been. Yes. And then I turn around and like full cheek showing. And then apparently my mom was like cheering, clapping in the audience. And I'm like, I couldn't, I still don't even totally believe that image because I'm like, that would have never, that does not square with the sort of internalized sort of thing that I have with them from childhood, from being a teenager.

39:07And now it's just like, look at all this. Well, this is what you want to tell young kids, you know, when they feel hopeless over any issue, right? life is long and the trajectory is unpredictable. And sometimes you just want to allow it to breathe a little bit before you decide that life isn't worth living or that nothing will change. Because people, if you give folks grace, sometimes it comes back in return. I think there was a mutual exchange of that grace between me and my parents. That's beautiful. That really is. Thank you. That's me. And you're going to visit extended family. You're taking a special trip.

39:53Yes, I'm taking a special trip. To the consulate first. To the consulate. I have to go to the consulate first. Yeah. But yeah. You want to make sure you get back. I want to make sure I get back. Well, yeah. I'm excited. I haven't been back in like nine years. So this isn't your first trip. We would go all the time growing up. Okay. And then once college started, it was a little less frequent because everyone had busier lives as we were growing older. And it's important that I go back. And it's funny, like a lot of my extended family, it's just my parents and my sister and I in the States. Everyone else is back in China.

40:29Okay. But I'll have aunts and uncles and cousins be like, oh my gosh, we saw this thing that Bowen did. And it made its way here, which is great, which is amazing. Then it makes me go, well, I never came out to them. and clearly I've done enough things. My hit rate in terms of stuff that I put out is clearly telegraphs that I am who I am. And so I'm working with this tutor now to just refresh my Mandarin, but also to give me the literal vocabulary to have conversations with them where I'm like, so this is who I am. This is what my life is like. This is my job. This is my personal vocabulary. The actual vocabulary.

41:05Yeah, I'm a gay man. SNL is a live show on Saturdays. These are the things about me that I have to like learn in terms of the vocabulary to communicate these things. Have your parents had those conversations with their relatives back home? Or they - I think they're, I think they want to leave it up to me. Uh-huh. Which I totally, which I appreciate actually. Yeah. When's the trip going to happen? It's going to be about a month and a half. All right. Where I am going to send so much, we're going to send so much energy your way. It's going to be great. I receive it. And if it's not, just come on back.

41:37Exactly.

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47:04So my sister is always talking about I need a sort of culture boost because I'm not cool, right? I have kids. You were so cool, by the way. I have kids, but I'm not cool. So I would like to know, since you started your podcast, what are some of the changes in culture you've seen, both positive and negative? Wow. Great question. I think there's this debate that keeps going on. And I don't even know what the answer is or what the right side is. But like, is there still a monoculture or is it completely like fragmented? Is no one watching the same thing? What does that do to us? I think people still are watching the same things.

47:48There's just a bajillion options and that's what makes it feel so disjointed. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a few stories like that you can really look at since we started the podcast in March of 2016, just to note that. And so in those years since, it's like you've really seen some wild narratives. And it's kind of like I always boil it down to like their streaming. The way that movies and TV have sort of collapsed has been really interesting. But, you know, so when people are like, why did they split it up into two movies? It's like because they can and they should. Because that's going to save the film industry.

48:27Exactly. You know what I mean? If you have something like that that's a unicorn, you got to chop up that unicorn. Brush that unicorn. Right, right, right. Be grueling. But I just wish that the effort was some more of the trying was a bit more experimental. Yeah. Of course. I mean, I just feel like the industry is a little bit too precious with IP. 100%. And it's like, I think one thing that will get people out are just new concepts. Yeah. Sinners just popping off. Exactly. You do get those moments where we're proven right. That we want to see original stuff. That's, but the industry, the suits have to kind of believe it.

49:10It's like, guess what? The suits have to change a lot. You don't have to spend$150 million. People just want to see some good new content, a different way of seeing the world, a different way of approaching film. And I sat next to a film executive at a dinner and had a full-blown argument about this. Same thing. It's like there is room. People will go see a wonderful$30 million film. We've seen it. Anora, this Oscars, we saw it all. But for some reason, they're risk-averse to try this new thing. And it's like, don't be so risk-averse because this is a cheaper way. Totally. It's like you have less to lose instead of putting all your eggs in this$100,$200 million film.

49:55Isn't that so riskier? It seems riskier. And also, you know, I was watching, have you watched the studio? Yeah, I was watching the studio. It's a great show with Seth Rogen on Apple. Oh, I haven't seen it. And we had Seth on, Seth with his wife. You've got to watch the studio. So this is a great show. And I remember like one of the things that they were talking about is the fact that like a cut of a movie was coming in at two hours, 45 minutes or something. And it was cutting down the show times. And I'm like, okay, so isn't this a no brainer? If you make shorter movies, which everyone is craving, and you want the money, add the showtimes.

50:26Just make the movies a little shorter. That's right. So that's one thing I care. Because it feels like all the superhero movies are also two hours and 45 minutes. And I'm like, what is the logic here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the appeal? Well, we've got two best friends on this show. And we've got a question about friendship and finding people. And before we get into it, One of the things I did want to ask, because I find this in our friend groups, do you guys have the same friend group? Do you have separate friend groups? And if so, do your groups merge? I think the Venn diagram is a circle for our friend groups.

51:06It's basically all the way. I know. When he makes a new friend and then I... Because it's kind of like when any good friend of yours is a good friend of mine. Yeah. And then likewise, I recently... I have two very close friends. One of them is actually my ex-boyfriend who's now my best friend. And Bowen takes him as his date to things now. And it makes me so happy. Shout out to Jared. Hey, Jared. He's going to be thrilled. But yeah, that's a really nice, happy thing. And that's also how you know... They're your people. They're your people. I'm glad that you guys debunked No New Friends recently on this podcast because I've never told...

51:45That came from this one. and for the longest time like that was like a culture shift you have to like take some credit for that because like people are saying that really oh yeah oh good have you heard that Tanashe song No Broke Boys yes no broke boys no new friends yeah anyway she I can't believe you have to sing that in front of you Tanashe you're on the burn about it I'm just glad we know the same song we don't even culture catch up you're good no way but like I I don't think it's no new friends I think it's like We just have to be a little bit more, I don't know, we just have to put our feelers out a little bit more selectively or not even selectively.

52:24It's just about time. It's about how you choose to spend your time. It's like, I think you said something one time that I tried to adopt, which is like, if I'm going on a date with you, it's a big deal. You know what I mean? Just in terms of my time. Because you don't have a lot of time. And also, time is precious. You realize even more and more, like people get busy and stuff like that. So that is a kind of expression of love. Like I'm giving this time to you. And so when you invite someone in to that, that's real care. And that's intense. Yeah, that's an expenditure. To share time in your life with someone.

53:05Well, in order to get there, where you even have the option of defining your time, you've got to build your people. You've got to find your people. And I think our listener this week has a question about how to do that. And I think this is a good group that can help break it down. And we didn't plan this, but it's Alicia from Brisbane. Wow! I love it. How about that? It just shows we've got listeners all over the world. Pretty cool. Wow. Let's hear the question. Dear Michelle and Craig, I'm about to turn 30 and I'm not handling it as gracefully as I'd hoped. I'm not where I thought I'd be in life and I feel like I'm starting this new chapter from scratch I've been through a lot Reconciling with generational trauma and navigating hardships that, while painful Have shaped me into someone that I'm really proud of These lessons have been meaningful But most of them I've had to learn on my own and through a lot of trial and error For many years, my picker was off in both friendships and relationships And I had to learn the hard way about how I deserve to be treated and how to choose people who are healthy, safe and real.

54:13I've picked up a few beautiful friendships along the way, but I've also made a lot of painful decisions in the process. Recently, I went through a big breakup with someone that I deeply loved and cared for. And now I find myself feeling lonely and without a strong sense of community. The friends that I'd hoped would support me, people who I've poured a lot into, have been caught up in their own lives, even though I've shared how much I've been struggling. This has left me doubting my own self-worth and if I've actually found my tribe. So my question is, how should I navigate these friendships and how do I begin a new chapter in life, building identity and community without letting past failures and unhealthy beliefs get in the way?

54:55Alicia, 30. She's your age. You guys are babies, first of all. That's the one thing you have to remember. It's like you guys are so young. We are really in our middle age. No, don't do that. Please. I mean, you know, we were talking about this question and I just remember approaching 30 is tough because it feels like, I guess any 20, 30, 40, 50. One of the milestones. Yeah. And I... 60. Yeah, yeah. Mine. But one thing is, I do feel like it does, and people say this, It's like, it does get better as you get older. Because it's like, we were saying, it's like when you're in high school, they're like, these four years are going to be, four years you remember.

55:43And then you get to college and it's like, I don't remember high school. And then you're in college and you're like, these are the formative years. Because when you're growing up, you think, oh, college, they're adults. Then you're in your 20s and you're like, college wasn't shit. You know what I mean? That's so right. So what I would say to someone approaching 30 is, it's like, it's like your book, it's like you're still becoming, you're always going to you know it's not about thinking oh I've reached 30 because I was like this I was approaching 30 and I thought that I had failed you know what I mean?

56:15Even as things were getting better and I also think sometimes it's the compare to spare you know what I mean? That's right I happen to be best friends with someone who is you know like I think one of the defining comedy stars of my generation and that can be hard even as someone who is successful because sometimes it's like you think to yourself, like it's never going to be enough. But then you take that checkpoint off and you realize everything's not so bad. Not to say that this person isn't experiencing what they're experiencing, but it's about framing it. Not like I haven't done it. It's just I haven't done it yet.

56:54Or maybe I don't even know what it is that I am meant to do. It's just a, it's like a gratitude in the present, I think. Also, I've had about seven personality transplants in my life. It's something about like 30. It's like you're going through like the fourth version of yourself or something. I'm just throwing numbers out there. But like, you know, what I will say is Alicia seems to be hitting this wall with like her friends that she seems to have confided in and she doesn't seem to be feeling that in return or doesn't feel that support. And I would say that is probably a great sort of sign. It's like, well, then that's all the information you need, right?

57:41It's like, well, then don't put your shields up. Don't pull back, but just know that you can't pour so much of yourself into these specific people. Yeah. That's interesting. You guys came at it from that way. I've been thinking about this and I'm thinking about it as a former athlete and a coach and a father. And as I've gotten older, the one thing that I wish I had done when I was younger was enjoy the process more than the results. And if I would say anything to Alicia, it would be, hey, enjoy your process of your change of what's going on and it will make you a more fulfilled person and you are going to be more attractive and you're going to feel a self-worth and you're going to feel good about yourself and that's going to make people be drawn to you.

58:45Totally. And my mom would say, why would you care if people want to be drawn to you? But you do because you want some friends and you want to be in relationships. And I just think that I didn't start enjoying the process until I was well past my 30s. I was like growing in with kids where I was like, this is what I'm supposed to be enjoying, not what I'm aiming for. I'll get what I get. Sure. But this process, I got to enjoy the birthday parties and I got to enjoy the, you have to enjoy the vacation. and things like that. So that's how I came in. Well, one thing I always want young people when I talk to them to avoid is being so afraid of failing and living life that they don't even try.

59:40And when I think about my girls, you know, in this no new friends concept and trying to contradict that, It's like you can't live life afraid of making friends because something could go wrong. That makes life not worth living. It's just you can't live in the fear of somebody hurting you because you lose out on all the possibilities of wonderful people. You shut yourself off and you don't let anybody in. I would want Alicia to understand that. You have to practice making friends, which means you're going to have to make some mistakes. Because guess what? Having friends, having people is worth the risk.

1:00:24Yes. It is way worth the risk. I would take a million, you hurt my feelings, you disappointed me, to find the one gem that you will find if you keep really building and knowing yourself. Yeah. Those gems of friendships, to me, it's worth the hurt and disappointment. People will hurt and disappoint you. Your own family will hurt and disappoint you. There are times when you two hurt and disappointed each other. That's a part of the process. But isn't it worth that risk? Whenever you guys had your riff, whatever it was. Yeah, I mean, there was a time we didn't speak for six months and still did the podcast.

1:01:07And still did the podcast. And it's like, I mean, it's hard. There are things that come up. But imagine if you walked away from that. That's the thing is you have to decide what's worth fighting for. So it sounds like this person has also gone through a pretty brutal breakup. And I get that. I mean, I had something once that knocked me down for a couple of years. And it didn't seem like it made sense in terms of how long the relationship had been, how significant it was to other people in my life. But I think we're always stronger as a result of We've had some pretty large fights. And like, I do think.

1:01:47Fun. Fun, like, I've never shouted louder in a way that I'm terrible. I can't believe my voice can do that. Can I say? Yeah. There's no one better that I would shout at than you. No, because I can go toe to toe. Like, it's bad. It's like a feral. We have one blow at every like two years. That's how I know. It's not like. And I don't look forward to them. No, me neither. Me neither. It's like, I hate it. In fact, it usually is within the same conversation that we're then crying. I'm like, why do you do this? Like, so it's just, but like, that is a part of dynamics between human beings. Yeah, I think, I mean, something you two have talked about is like unlearning.

1:02:26And this is, 30 is about that age where you unlearn like this effort result dichotomy that like either our parents have taught us or like society is internalized in us. Like, oh, if I do this thing, if I put in this amount of effort, than I should expect this result. And so maybe Alicia feels disappointed that she's put an effort within her relationships, in her friendships, and the result she's gotten back is not the one that she wanted. But maybe it's reframing it in terms of those results just being part of the larger, longer effort. Yeah. The effort is just like, oh, I tried my hand at this loving relationship that did not end well.

1:03:00It not ending well is not the result necessarily. That's right. It's couched in the effort. Clock how people make you feel on an instinct level. Like when I'm around Bowen, he makes me feel smart. He makes me feel funny. He makes me feel like a powerful part of something, like a valuable part of something. And it's always been like that. When I think about the way that, for example, one of my exes made me feel, it was anxious. It was, you know, et cetera. It's like, and then I think of some friends, you know, like that go through seasons, you know, at this point. That's right. You know, maybe there's someone in my life who's making me feel nervous.

1:03:37Yeah. Or who's making me feel... Maybe there's some friend in your life that's making you feel a little horny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like clock the way that people are making you feel. I like that. Yeah. Tell us more. Let's delve into that cringe. We're so happy you guys are coming off. But like, you tell yourself a lot. Yeah. And like, you know, like, you know you. And so when you're around someone and they make you feel a certain way. Listen to that. Yeah. And that's also probably what Alicia is struggling with because when you're turning 30, you're just beginning to know you. Oh, yeah. Right?

1:04:18I mean, like you both have said, it's a long journey of self-discovery, right? And so she may feel a little more uncertain about making mistakes and maybe it's me and I don't trust my picking meter. And it's like, yeah, at 30, you're still learning your picking meter. There is no right or wrong way. And you don't develop wisdom any faster. You don't have wisdom at 30. It's just like, I had a friend who's dating a younger person and he claimed that she's wise and she's 30. And I'm like, she's not. There's a certain amount of knowledge that you have. I'm not saying that people aren't smart, but wisdom is accumulated over time.

1:05:07There's no shortcut to it because you have to have experiences and successes and failures. And you have to look over yourself over a period of time to say, what did I learn about me? And I don't want Alicia to start questioning herself at 30. you know, it's like your picker's not off. You didn't have the result you wanted a couple of times. And those experiences are going to help you define who you are. You know, you'll know now what you like in friendships, what's missing, you know, what do seasons look like for you? All of that comes with time. So by the time you're 40, you'll have more discernment because you'll know yourself a little bit more.

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1:10:44To listen, just search Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap. So some of this, I just want Alicia to be patient with herself. You know, stay in the game. Yeah. You know, don't back away. Don't be afraid of people and friendships or hurt because that's just part of it. And there's something really beautiful on the other side of that hurt. If you just, because you will heal from it. Yes. You know, even the worst fights that you have, we've had bad fights. You get over it. You move on. You learn from it. We have not had any bad fights. Well, no, we don't. We don't. We don't fight.

1:11:23There's a brother in this. Because he doesn't fight. I don't fight. I don't fight. But our biggest fight was a... I remember the big fight. I read about the big fight. Yes. You remember the big fight? I remember the big fight. You remember the big fight? Yeah, the fight felt legitimate, by the way. It felt legitimate. I think it was right after your father passed away. Yeah, yeah. And I don't remember it. I don't remember that fight. Interesting, you do. I remember it. But it was a hurt fight. Yeah, of course. We were just hurt. I'm thinking about our big fights too. It was always interior. Like he was feeling depressed from being like run down in many different ways.

1:12:04And I had just been gone through a breakup and we collided in this. It was insane. It was so stupid. I had gone to a Chapel Rhone concert. This is before Chapel Rhone was huge. And I was like, you gotta listen to Chapel Rhone. And he was ignoring me and posted an Instagram story. and so I was like you're annoying me and he was like I'm depressed and I shouted the words in my trailer while we were shooting Wicked I don't have to respond when you tell me about Chabot Brown he didn't even know who she was he would have responded maybe I'm wrong and he has taken it back so you guys sound like my two Austin and Aaron you sound like how brothers fight.

1:12:49And we're brothers. We're brotherly that way. That's what it is. You guys are brothers. We have our sensitivities. I'm really sensitive to being ignored. Yeah. So like when I feel like when I feel like I'm being ignored that sets me off. And I'm sure you have a your thing. Oh absolutely. Like it's just but you know and it's like because it is like family. That's what I mean is it's like sometimes it's not like it doesn't always feel like oh it was a big fight because this crazy thing happened. It was you didn't text me back about Chapel Rhone and posted a photo with Ariana Maddox at an event. Literally.

1:13:23It's like, you evil person. You evil person. It's like how when you're with family, you can crap your pants and it's okay. That's right. They'll take you home. They'll fix you up. And now it's only fun. And that's what Alicia has to learn. Because the thing you learn about yourself at 35, 36, 37 is that you have that sensitivity. You know, it takes you a minute of practice to say, okay, that yelling wasn't about him, it was about me. And that's like a mid-30s, the end of the 30s realization, right? I mean, it takes you a second to start really owning your own stuff, right? So maybe some of these fights that Alicia had were her fault.

1:14:10Maybe she does need to take a step back and maybe she did something wrong. Accountability. We just talked about that. Accountability. And the older I get, the more accountable I become, you know, because I, you know, I know when it's my fault now, really. And I can't pretend like it was, you hurt me. And it's like, no, I was, you know, I was feeling hurt. I'm depressed right now. I took that out. We had that argument because I took something out on you. And it takes years and years of practice of connecting with people that you love and care about before you understand who's in the right, who's in the wrong, what was your part.

1:14:48It takes time. So I want young people to have the patience to hang in there with a bunch of things, with friendships, with relationships, with careers. It is not the TikTok instantaneous feedback that we're now used to. Because I do think that the way that intention spans, like, oh, this person isn't getting it right away. I'm going to move on. Because I do think that bleeds in from the way the stimulus. That's so great, Matt. Because it makes me think about, you know, people get stuck in the way they made friends when they were a teenager. And my sister is good at discerning her new friendships better than I am.

1:15:31And I want you to share some of your advice for Alicia. She's sort of coming out of her 20s and going into her 30s. How should she go about making new friends here? Making new friends is a risky proposition. So it's not comfortable, right? You have to become uncomfortable because sometimes you have to step out of yourself and go and meet somebody, right? It's a risk. You have to put yourself out, right? And we're living in a culture where nobody has to put themselves out. Everybody's getting accustomed to living a life on a phone, very internal. COVID just exacerbated that. So what I would tell Alicia is that making friends requires you to take a risk.

1:16:17And it requires you to be engaged in the world. So you are not going to make new friends sitting on your phone, in your computer, in your house. No one's going to knock on your door. Tinder isn't, we still don't have friendship Tinder. No, we don't. It's funny you bring that up because I really do feel like, so we had had the podcast from 2016 on and then 2020 happened and it was COVID. And after that, something did change with our like listener community. They reached out and they were saying how lonely they were and what a comfort it was. And then you start to see them connect because they have the same interest, which maybe is the podcast or things that we talk about.

1:16:59And I think that ultimately that is what we are most proud of. Yeah, yeah. Is the fact that it is something that brings people together that we created. And that's what the awards are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we look out and like we've done the awards for a few years and sometimes I do go online and I'll look at like our Reddit page and they'll be making plans to meet up. Like loneliness may be a unifier. There may be something from that that we can take power in. Just like expressing, I'm solo right now. I'm flying solo to this thing. Would anyone want to link up? You know what I mean? And usually you will not be disappointed.

1:17:37No. For Alicia, it's worth the risk. So I'd say, take a chance, be bold. Don't lean back from this experience. Don't let these hurts make you small in terms of your desire to be a part of a group, but it will take work. It does take effort. It is not instantaneous. It requires a plan and it requires you executing against the plan. And you're going to get hurt and it's okay. You will heal from it and you will grow from it and it'll be all right. And you're in Brisbane, so go to the Koala Sanctuary. Okay. Is that right? Bowen with some real - Just don't touch them. Just don't touch them. I've held koalas.

1:18:24I have had the pleasure. Is that the best animal you've ever held? Actually, no, I'm wrong. It wasn't koalas. It was pandas. Oh, even better. That's even. Oh, I'm sorry. We should get some real takeaways for Alicia before we go. We digress. We digress for a second. Try a safari. Yeah. That's a way to make friends. It should be huge for you. I was going to start with your, just be open. It's hard, but be open and honest. and vulnerable. Okay. And any takeaways you guys want to give? Summations. I think Craig and I are on the same level, which is like the process, which is... I like that. As it ties to mine, it's like the result is part of the effort.

1:19:08And it is just being like put into this larger Russian nesting doll of effort. You know, the result will be good in the end. Yeah. You're not doing it wrong because there's no doing it right. I like that as well. There's no one way to live a life. And it's, you know, you're not getting it wrong. You're not making mistakes. I like that point. And I would just say, Alicia, please cut yourself some slack. You're only 30, girl. You got a lot of time. I sound high. Yeah, really. Regroup and relax and enjoy being in Brisbane. So, yeah. You guys, this has been terrific. And thank you so much. In love with you both.

1:19:53Love you guys. Really, truly. And I'm tuning in to the Culture Awards. You got us. When does it air? August 5th on Bravo, the next day on Peacock. Okay. Yes, the Bravo Peacock dance. Alliance. It's going to be wild. We've been in the writer's room every day and actively putting it together. Is it how long of a special? How long of a show? Two hours. Two hours. And you've got musical guests. Any surprise? Anything? Can we drop some tea here? I don't think anything we can say yet. We'll be there. Okay. All right. Yeah. Good enough. That's enough. That's enough for us. Good enough. Good enough. Where do you film?

1:20:36It's going to be in LA. It's going to be in LA. Okay. Theater on July 17th. We're filming it. Yeah. It's a blast. It's a really live event. It sounds like it. It's going to be really fun. Sounds like it. Well, I'll be tuning in. Yay. Maybe next year. I can, you know, make a sneak appearance. Let's just say open invitation for you both. Let's just put that out there. That's our extension. That's us making fun. Well, Bowen and Matt, it has been a pleasure. You guys are funny and smart. And sweet. Yeah. So nice. So likewise. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom with our IMO listeners. And, you know, any tips you can give us because we want to be where you are in a decade.

1:21:19Down the axis. down the axis put those strawberries in the raisin oh yes let me tell you when you're making cereal there's no right way to make breakfast for Lisa either you guys thanks so much

1:22:00Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions? Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?

1:22:46Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else, but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get, and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.

1:23:35For more great advice, search for Happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.