I’m Not Disappearing - A Candid Conversation About Aging

26:50You are in and then you're out. You don't necessarily have a long career. I know I felt that in my own career that I was going to age out of the industry. And I was wondering if you felt that. Never. Really? No. That's interesting. But did you feel it externally? People facing it towards you. Meaning maybe you didn't think that way. But did you feel it? No. Beth Ann's special. Beth Ann is so special. I love it. She's such a special. I mean, you don't gangsta what I do. So I don't think anything that the idea really truly. I never thought about that, you know, because even when I had dreadlocks, and that was many, many years ago.

27:22Before dreadlocks were in. Before they were in. People would say, did you get any pushback? No. No. I mean, it doesn't. I don't think you'd notice pushback if it pushed you in the face. I think you'd look and go, what's your problem? Some things, you know, some things you could see. But absolutely, you're great about it. And I think when you work in a corporation, you've got to be conscious of that. because you worked in a corporation. Yeah. And in my world, you know, we're like flying by the seat of our pants. I had a model agency. I'm doing things I really shouldn't do, don't want to do. In the end of the day, you know, you're coming hardcore and people are cheering you on.

27:59I never even thought about that. Now I see myself in pictures and I see the difference of how I look when I would, people say you still look the same. No, I don't. I look at this picture and look at that picture. I'm fucking 40 years old. And I feel bad about that, but it doesn't stop me or make me feel like, oh, no, I can't go forth. But I think what you say, Bethann, to get to your point, Jenna, is that, yeah, there is crazy pressure that we're not supposed to evolve. And men have a different kind of pressure. 100%. Just look at our leaders. What's allowed? Jane said as an activist, she feels like she has to show up looking good, right?

28:44I don't think you'd hear a male activist saying that. Absolutely not. I don't think they could think it, but they probably, they couldn't say it out loud because they don't have that intellect to say it out loud, but they probably look it. But I don't think they think it. I don't think they, I think that there are - But if you're a real activist, you're supposed to look cool. I think there are many ways physically for men to look powerful and be desirable. I think there's a wide spectrum. Now, I do think that men have a limit on what being a man is. And I think that that's a shame. That's a burden on men that there are still three ways you can be.

29:23You have to be competitive. You have to be tough. You can't cry. You can't show your emotions. You can't help. So I think emotionally, they're limited. but physically, it's the world. For sure. There's no question. I'm curious for you, Jane, because obviously your industry is very challenging in terms of what you were saying. Michelle, like the standards of beauty for women in your industry are very different than they are for men. I mean, at the number of times I've seen a man who's much older and his girlfriend or wife looks like she's 20 years younger. I mean, do you feel like it's changed?

29:51Do you feel like it's getting better? Do you feel like it's still the same? No, I'm sorry. That look, all I heard was younger. That's all I heard in the whole conversation. it's hard yeah I'm not sure that it's you know as I'm saying I'm not sure it's getting better I'm seeing Helen Mirren you know I'm seeing me I'm seeing older women who are still taking leading roles and I think that's that's really good I just came back from Paris I walked the the the the the I've been working for I'm the oldest living skin care ambassador in the world and they still and me and Heron Because they know they have a market that's there.

30:33Yeah. There's no doubt. But I really appreciate that. I do too. That they recognize that. Yes, I do too. Very much so. But that's new. I mean, that's recent, right? Definitely recent. And it's recent in the apparel fashion industry, what we want to call it. Because, you know, we see it on the runway. We see it in commercials. You know, all sizes. businesses now, marketing, advertising, agents. The asemone thing is hurting the all sizes, I'm not going to lie. That one we are seeing rollback for sure. But I think the diversity in age has gotten better. All right. Go ahead, question. You all have experienced the media scrutinizing your bodies over the years.

31:14And how did that affect how you viewed your own body? And how does that affect your current confidence? I was made to feel fat when I was little and very much objectified by my parents. Well, my mom was dead, but my dad, he was a good person, but it was just a problem. And it came from your father. Your bathing suit is too big, small. Don't wear too short. I don't know. He was always critical of my physical being. And so I had body dysmorphia most of my life and suffered from eating disorders. So it's been a battle for me. And at almost 88, I'm happy to say, I don't give a flying fuzzy rat's ass.

31:56I want to look good enough that I can get work, but I'm not worried about it anymore. If I was married to a man, it's still ingrained in me. You know, I grew up in the 40s and 50s. I would have a problem, but I'm single, so I don't care. Well, I will say that your workout video was one of my favorites. It was kind of game-changing. It was. It really was. It really was. It was designed for women, and I was so inspired. I loved it. It was one of my favorites. It was all done to raise money for the Campaign for Economic Democracy. Yeah, and all with the advocates. It was very influential for a lot of young women, myself included.

32:31But I was surprised at how, what an effect it had. It was great. Yeah, it's true. It was cultural.

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38:13All right, Bethan, this one is for you. When you started out in the modeling world, you were so often the first or the only Black woman in many spaces. What was it like for you to navigate the fashion world at that time? And how did that shape you? I kept thinking about...

38:31I kept thinking about representing. I think I was thinking... Yeah, thank you. I think I was always thinking about representing. I didn't mind being the only one. You didn't? I never sweat me numb because I didn't think that anybody was better than I anyway. But I honestly did think, oh, this is just the beginning. Where did your confidence come from? I'm curious because it seems so... I want to tell you all a story. I used to be in a gang. A gang gang? Wait, wait, back up. What? I used to be in a gang. You were a gangbanger. Where was this? Cool. In Brooklyn. And I think sometimes you often...

39:06I tell this to people, they go, are you serious? Yeah, but it wasn't a gang. I believe it. Yeah, I know you do. I can tell you. I thought you were going to stroke me through this one again. But no, I was. And I think, you know, even then, I always had confidence. I think I saw that I was a last kid as a kid. You know, I had to go home, you know, after seven years old, let yourself in the house, blah, blah, blah, blah. Most of my grandmother and my mother worked. But I was on the streets fighting. It's true. Back then, it wasn't like real guns. You got mostly beat up. Maybe someone might have gotten stabbed.

39:37That was huge. And this gang was five boroughs. And it was one of the best gangs. And so I just sometimes give them a shout out. What was your enterprise, your gang enterprise? What's that mean? Was it drugs? Was it just— No, we didn't have the— Were you slinging? This was the 50s. Was it territorial? It's territorial. Territorial. That's all. She understands all these things. You're trying to make yourself— I'm just checking. I'm just checking if I remember. So Bethany, do you really remember where you were? I think a lot of it is also I really always— I started writing the book, and by— I realized by 12, I had really already been very successful.

40:18I did a lot of things on my own. I would tell my mother and grandmother what I was doing next, and they'd go, oh, my God, what else are you going to do? And, you know, they'd just let me go. So I think I always had it. I think people come to earth that have that. I think you, too. You came to earth with it. No matter how much you were being oppressed, you were meant to grow. I think you're born resilient. Me, too. Me, too. And it's interesting because two siblings can be born close together, same parents and one will be resilient and one won't. Exactly. It's a real mystery. Same for the brain, too.

40:48Well, you do as a parent, if you have more than one kid, you see it really clearly that nature really does play a role. There is a part of me that always felt like I knew certain things about myself really young. Yeah. You know, like I knew what I knew. Me too. And the confidence, same thing. my mother would always say, oh, I didn't raise Michelle. She raised herself. She always knew certain things. She's just like, I just let her go. And I'm like, mom, that's not true. I was listening to you. But when I think of the messages that I told myself, and that's why when I talk to young people, I'm trying to get them to tap into that voice because you hear it early in yourself.

41:36And I'm trying to tell kids, listen to that voice. if it is in you. But it's interesting you're saying that. That's interesting because that's true. But you don't know that when you're young. That's the point. That's really true. You don't know it. You don't know. You don't hear a voice. You just, you know, do it. I didn't have one. I didn't get a voice until I was in my 60s. I'm telling you, I don't think I got a voice until last week. What happened? I don't think you were born with a voice. No, I really did. Wait, we were in a gang. I'm sorry. Last week, I started realizing, God damn, my ankles swell just every so often.

42:15Age, time on earth, no matter how much I'm buzzing around in fashion week and coming here and doing, just little things start coming to you that makes you know, okay, this shit's shifting. Like you said about time and men and just things I start to realize, okay. And even though I just had a birthday too, and I hate ever saying how old now I just let people talk about it. I'm just so mad about it. I really am. I just don't want anybody telling me anymore. So you're 83. Fuck you. It pisses me off. But I like being older. Freedom, it gives you to be older, right? Me too. I know you do. Because I know who I am now.

42:56I didn't know for a long, long time. and I'd like to talk about that because it helps young people who don't know, you know, people are so, it's hard to be young. It's way easier to be older. Yeah, much easier. I would never go back. Oh, me and the driver were just talking about me either. I mean, the point, well, first of all, I had a, I can't bullshit. I had a great growing up years. I had a very good childhood and I mean, I came up, Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, two parents, both female, then went to live with my dad who was much more of the intellect and all. I really had a great childhood.

43:30I didn't have all the oppressions and things and being hidden. So, I don't have any complaint that way, but when you start to write about who you are, you start to learn more of who you are. Yeah, that's true. You? Yeah. When you start to write about what was? Well, the thing that I feel like when, and I don't know whether this is unique to women, but it is true for me that it wasn't until now that I feel like I can own my wisdom Like the thing I didn't know, I can look back and go, I can look back now and say, that four-year-old person did know something that I wasn't ready or able to claim because I didn't realize it.

44:12And I think we as women, I just find that we aren't ready to own our wisdom until now when we are sure that we've learned the lesson, that when we can look back on a life and actually point to the things that have happened to say, oh, that actually worked out the way I planned. But you know, wisdom, it's interesting. As an older person, I've learned this. Wisdom doesn't come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding what they are. And that's why at a certain point in life, it's so important to really think about your life. You know, when I turned 60, wanting to figure out the last, I knew that you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been.

45:00And that's when I began to really study myself like I wasn't me, like I was somebody else, like an archaeologist. And then wisdom came when I started to really figure it out. It didn't just, you know what I mean? Yes. You are so smart. What? You, to me, have always been one of the smartest women. I mean, really. You are. You really are. But I'm just intentional. You're still not claiming your wisdom. No, but you really are. I've always thought of you being so smart. Thank you. Even with all the mistakes you think you made, I always thought you are so smart. Listening to you now. I mean, the average young person would never think a person, as you said, about how we think of age.

45:44When we're kids, we think 50. Done. And here you are in your 80s talking shit that most people are in expression. My son said the other day, since I was born, my mother has talked about her death. It's focusing on the end and how you want the end. I mean, we could all die tomorrow. We don't know how we're going to die. But having a vision of how you want it. You're so smart. And then living to that. And you're having your husband always saying how smart you were, how smart you were, how smart. You're so smart. And I never went to college. But you're so smart too. I mean, I went to FIT. That's not college.

46:17I mean, there's all kinds of smart, you know. I mean, because, you know, there are people who are more academically lettered. They accomplish more. They don't take the steps. But there's a combination. Smart is a combination of things. There's also, there's IQ and there's EQ. Exactly. And they're very different. And I think, particularly in the corporate world, EQ is often more valuable than IQ. Yeah. I spent a lot of time recently in Louisiana on the Gulf, Louisiana and Texas. with people who live near LNG terminals and they're called sacrifice zones. And most of the activists were women. They're so smart.

46:58Most of them didn't graduate high school, but they're the smartest people I know. The wisdom that they just naturally have. Yeah. I'm going to bring us back. Go ahead. This has been directed towards you, Michelle. You share in your book that society tends to diminish older women and expects them to fade into the background, younger women too. However, you've chose to go the opposite direction. and it's also shown up in your fashion and you've worn bolder looks and gotten much more sort of expressive. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you're feeling now about the way you show up.

47:26Yeah, I think my trajectory was a little unconventional. That eight year stint as first lady tends to be a bit confining, right? Because the role, the job was not to just represent me, but to represent the nation. And as the first Black family in that house, just like Black folks feel in all the first positions, that we're carrying the torch, we're lighting the way, which means that we've got to do it really, really well so that the next folks will have a chance. When you're the only, you feel like if you don't get it right, nobody will ever get this position. Women, people of color, people of different ethnicities, of different genders and sexual orientation, we all feel that.

48:25So a lot of my fashion choices, you know, as we talk about in the look, you know, the look was about using the language of fashion as a way to send a message, to send a message about beauty, about culture, about the American spirit, about inclusion, right? Right. So that was, you know, I had a role, right? Now that I'm out of that role, fashion is about me. It is selfishly, it's completely about what I like and what I want to do. It was that way in the White House. I mean, but it was confined. Controlled, yeah. And so now I feel like, you know, whatever I do, I don't have to explain it or it doesn't have a consequence in that way.

49:15And it wasn't that I resented that, but that was the assignment. Conscious. Representing. I was representing. And now I'm just representing me. I remember one of the first outfits you wore after the White House were sky high boots and gold. And I was like, yes. I'm so excited. Well, you know, I got sent this. This is so good, this book. I love the way you talk about what you just said. And I love the way it's manifested in there. Because you really changed when you left. Well, that would make sense too. I'm curious it does. It's great. We're evolving. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, I'm in a different place in life.

49:52My kids have graduated. I'm an empty nester. I don't wake up. Until they left the house, I woke up. Every thought was them. When they're under my roof, I'm like, how are you? Are you eating? What's wrong with you? Are you happy? Am I screwing you up? Is being in the White House going to make you crazy? Are you crazy? You know, where are you? Why didn't you come home? Why are you in trouble again? Oh, my God, did you do your homework? But you were a strict mom, weren't you? I was, the girls would say I was strict because I just believed in boundaries, you know, for kids. Absolutely. And, you know, the consequences of their mistakes would be national fodder.

50:46So I wanted to protect them through that period and then fight for some normalcy. And that takes a little structure. Congratulations. Boy, did you succeed. But also, you're also your mother's daughter. I am. And that's the same way I feel. I believe in being strict. Yeah, yeah. Bethan, I know we've talked a little bit about activism. And particularly, I know you wrote a letter in 2013 to the industry. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that. Because I remember the wave that went through when that happened. In 2013, because the industry had sort of like lost its way, where you didn't see for a long time, for 10 years, say models of color.

51:34I had to use the model industry. I used that, and it was like a tool in my chest, the model. And it was just when you, I, was a model, and you saw it was normal to be one of girls' color. But then at some given point, it just disappeared. 96, after the Black Girls Coalition, when we had the Black Girls Coalition, 1996, Eastern Europe had opened up, and people started to go there, you know, scouts, and model agencies were being told, you cannot, you know, we're just not interested in black girls, no blacks, no ethnics, no blacks, no ethics. So whatever models that the agencies had, they'd have to say to someone during the season, I'm sorry, but are they not seeing black girls this season?

52:18We're not seeing black boys that season. And so at this given point, you know, you say, listen, we have not been down this road. We had already conquered that. So now it's going like getting whitewashed. And I just had to do like a data, checking how many models were being used by each agency to proof it, and then really hit the international market, which would be New York, London, Milan, and also Paris. And I wrote, I named all these houses that were guilty. Basically, that no matter what the intention is, if you continue to use one or no or two models of color per season, no matter your intent, the results is racism.

53:01And to say that to an industry that would never think they're racist, but they're just busy frolicking with trend, really upset. I knew in my heart, I believe that they weren't racist. I believe they were just bold-faced ignorant. And ignorance to me, ignorance is much worse than racism to me. So I wrote the letter and sent it out. And then everyone started to scramble. It made a huge difference. I remember it was a sea change. It changed everything. And my point is, I was trying not only to change my industry, but once we could put those images back into place, it would change all industries.

53:36And it has. Well, this is why history and understanding how we got where we are is so important. Because some would label that as DEI, as affirmative action. Right. When the truth is, is that a lot of the fighting for equity and equality and inclusion is about the fact that DEI was happening in the reverse, that there was a lot of blackballing happening throughout the country. It's the history of America. You know, you can't join this union unless you were of this ethnicity. You don't get this opportunity because of the color of your skin, which means that a lot of the opportunities were earned without merit.

54:20It was earned because others were excluded and there wasn't real clear competition. The best people weren't always getting the job. You had to be the son of somebody, the daughter of somebody. That was the history. And now to hear people criticizing DEI, I mean, it's almost like, okay, we like affirmative action as long as it benefits us. But if it's going to bring too many immigrants and people with different skin colors into the fold, now we're going to go after it.

55:01Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. I've been on so many of these sets, but I'm so excited to be in front of the camera. I've really made my career through word of mouth. That's partly how I ended up doing makeup for Michelle Obama. When I was a young makeup artist, I went down to the Four Seasons Hotel and asked if they were hiring. The owner of the salon came out and met me for tea. And after our conversation, she hired me on the spot. I worked at the hotel for 15 years as a resident makeup artist and had the opportunity to work with so many dynamic people. One day, I got the call to meet Michelle Obama.

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56:37doesn't even wear those little fluffy slippers that everybody likes. But now with Amazon, I don't have to run around to a dozen stores to find the perfect gift for her. Amazon's got it all in one place. Books, fitness products, even the latest gadgets she likes to play with when she's cooking for the family. And with Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals, I can save big while making sure Michelle's got everything she wants. And maybe a few things she didn't know she wanted. So yeah, this year, it's easy. Amazon's got her covered. And that makes me the favorite big brother. Well, I'm the only big brother, but still.

57:20Shop Black Friday Week deals now because with Amazon Black Friday Week starting November 20th, you can save up to 40 % on the gifts everyone wants, like the latest fashion finds and the hottest electronics. Thanks. Amazon's got you covered. We here at IMO are big believers that people never stop growing, that we're all in a state of continual becoming. So much so that Michelle even wrote a book about it. Because you are not one thing, you are all the things, constantly growing and changing into the next version of you. And every day and in every stage of your life, you're only getting stronger, bolder, more confident than you were yesterday.

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58:47But knowing this kind of history in the modeling industry is important, but it's also important to elevate it to where we are now. And that's why I've made it that way. Jane, this one's for you. So since the 70s, you've been a very loud activist and willing to fight and sometimes get arrested. For major political and civil rights issues, do you still see yourself as that person today? And how has your activism changed?

59:15I want to talk about how activism has changed me. I don't feel like I really came into being until 1970 when I decided, because I lived in France, I was married to a Frenchman. I came back here because I couldn't protest in France. It didn't feel right. And I met people that were different than any people I had ever met. How so? Yeah. Well, I remember there was a woman that ran a GI coffee house in Killeen, Texas. And sometimes you find something that you didn't know you were missing. You didn't know what existed. The way she was with me and with the GIs was different than any people I'd ever met.

1:00:00It was like looking at the world we were fighting for through a keyhole. And that's the team I want to be on. And I like to talk about that because the way she was with me is the way we have to be with the millions of people who are going to be hurt by what's happening now. And what was that way? Tell us what felt different. Yeah. I'm curious. How was she with you? It had nothing to do with what I looked like. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was famous. Barbarella had come out. She wanted to know, because I was being sent onto the base to Leaflet for a rally. She wanted to know how I felt.

1:00:38What do you think? She asked my opinion. Nobody had ever asked my opinion about things like that. I was so new. She treated me with respect, but she treated the GIs that way too. and I saw this.

1:00:53She just showed up in a very human way and I hadn't experienced it before. And that says something about the life I was living. It was quite hedonistic and superficial and I had avoided dealing with real things because I knew once I knew I'd never turn back. There you go. Yeah, and I just, this is the way we have to be. You know, the cliche is be the change you're seeking. And she was. And that's the way we have to be. What do you think is missing in terms of courage? Because it takes a certain level of courage to leave a life of safety, even though it wasn't perfect. You know, you were able to live in a bubble of sort of...

1:01:40Well, my dad, see, my dad, I grew up with Tom Jode. I grew up with Grapes of Wrath and 12 Angry Men. Yes, yes. Exposure to that. You know, I was writing my autobiography one day. The phone rang. It was Yolanta King. It was Martin Luther King's daughter, Yolanta. And I don't remember why she was calling, but since I was writing, I said, Yolanta, when you were growing up, did Martin Luther King bow you on his knee and talk to you about values and how to live life? And she said, no. I said, no, my dad didn't either. but you had his sermons and I had my father's films. And so that kind of was like fertilizer in my soul.

1:02:21And so when I started meeting these new kinds of people, it's like I didn't want to go back. Number one and number two, they thought, oh, she's a white privileged girl. Give her a little hard time and she'll cave. That's right. I watched the whole thing. The more they attacked me. But also the other important thing is I was never alone. I was part of a movement. And that's what we have to do now. We have to rebuild movement of resistance along the lines of CNN. Creative, nonviolent, nonconforming. Yes. Is there anything that scares you when you're younger but no longer scares you? The thing that always scared me was intimacy.

1:03:03Oh, interesting. I've been under bombs. I've been, you know, I've had all kinds of things. But emotional intimacy has always been hard because I didn't experience it growing up. So it's hard. That scares me. And today too? I don't know because only with men. I'm fine with women. She's not with anybody. I'm fine because I'm single now. You can be intimate with yourself now. You can be intimate with you. Thank you. Yes, there's a whole other thing. No, that's a good one. Michelle, I have the same question for you. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger, but doesn't scare you anymore?

1:03:40Oh, yeah. There are tons of things, you know, the dark, the boogeyman, all the myths and scary things. So you don't see scary films? I don't like scary films. I do not. I mean, the last, well, I think I saw The Exorcist a little too young. And I was like, this isn't fun. Or Jaws. All of that. It's just not fun. Not fun. The thing that scares me now, maybe I'm flipping the question, regular life, regular little things, failure doesn't scare me. But nowadays, it's our lack of willingness to understand context, to understand history, and to learn from our history. You know, we are moving in a direction.

1:04:38We are going backward to a time when mistakes were made and things were bad. But history taught us that we don't want to go there. People weren't happier. You know, we weren't safer. Things weren't more affordable. You weren't rich suddenly because, you know, there were no immigrants. You know, fairness, you know, giving people a living wage, making sure every person in this world has a stake in the bigger picture, like that keeps us safe, you know, making sure people have jobs and they can pay their bills, you know, all of that matters. Like there was a time of courage. You guys lived through a time of people really tapping into some courage and especially people who have nothing to lose.

1:05:34If you're already rich, if you have some kind of grounding, if you are old enough to be able to lose, I wonder what's missing that we need inside of ourselves to get us to a place to want to organize and to, you know, sort of recapture. And I'm just curious to hear anything. You know, in the 50s, my father was part of the Committee for the First Amendment that was resisting McCarthyism and the House Un-American Activities Committee. We launched, relaunched the Committee for the First Amendment. The minute we went public, oh my God, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entertainment industry signed up.

1:06:19I mean, it's wild. It's wilder than I expected. People are ready, I think. Well, that's great. I think that's good to hear because that's my fear. It's like what we didn't have fear about before seems like, will we have the power to do now? Will we have to act fast? Yes, exactly. You know, like before, yeah, I remember saying, I'll die for my people, you know, take me, not my people. You know, being real gangster in the street and wanting to fight, you know, be down with the Panthers and do everything we can. What can we do? Like you said, the lack of fear. And now I see at this stage of my life, I'm thinking, glad I got my permanent residency in Mexico.

1:07:06You know, you don't want to be the one to chicken out because you're never with that person, you know. But this is never like we've ever seen before. So I'm thinking, well, who's going to really come with it? How can we sneak and win? You know, that kind of thing. So that's some of my stuff now. I'm thinking about that in my mind. What we're up against, though, it's dangerous, but it's also empty. It's hollow, so it's weak. And if we can get solidarity, strengthen numbers, and make it look as ridiculous as it really is, we win. We just have to do it quickly. Yeah, you have to move fast. because it's being moved very quickly.

1:07:48Very quickly. Well, and on the issue of aging and the next chapter, I'm working on the balance of leading, but making real space for the next generation of leaders. Because I also think that we do need to get the next generation really geared up and ready because these are truly their battles. That they're going to have to face. It's going to be the world they inherit. Most of us know, I think I'm on the tangent of having experienced the country at not its best. I think I'm of the rare generation where we benefited from all that struggle, but we weren't really in it. But I knew enough in history.

1:08:45My grandparents were alive. You still knew people who went through it that was alive. The consequences were real and in your face. So that's why I think it's important for, as you age, for us to be intentional about making room. We've got to have a plan in this next chapter to move out of the seats to let the next generation lead. and sometimes you have to let them lead, whether they know all the answers or not. You know, because when are you ready to lead? Like, we didn't know we were ready. I mean, we're in the White House. We were in our 40s. We had little kids. I mean, I was like, Barack, are you sure you want to do this?

1:09:27You didn't know? No, no. You never, I don't think you ever know that you're ready to lead. I think you just have to start doing it. It's the same thing with the letters. What'd you say? It's the same thing with me writing those letters. Oh, yeah. The same thing, knowing that I'm getting ready now, even though I believe that I was the one to do it because other people thought I was the only one who could do it, you still sit there and you take four years before you make that move because this is going to be something. And I was so clear about it. And I knew I had to believe in the industry in order to do it because if I thought I had to fight, I don't know if I would have done it.

1:10:07But I knew how ignorant they were. I just knew that I need to educate. The whole point, you educate people along the way. And that's the thing that was so important, education. Well, we just all have to get really brave. We have to get, that's right. I always refer to, we've all seen the documentaries, the march in Selma, the bridge, the batons and the dogs, South Africa, all over the world. And probably like me, asked, would I have been brave enough to do that? And we don't have to ask anymore. this is it. Right now, we are in our documentary moment. And we either are brave enough or we're going to lose.

1:10:47But I think we're brave enough. Did you expect to be still doing this kind of level of activism at this age? I didn't expect anything. I thought I'd be dead at 30. I thought I had nothing to offer. No, I just slowly came into... Because I'm surrounded by people who've been doing it longer than me, and they give me courage and strength. I'm not alone. We have to not be alone anymore. Ever since the 80s, individualism has been raised up as the pinnacle. This is what we're going for, each person for himself. Our democracy won't survive if it's each person for himself. We have to totally smash that.

1:11:27We have to start thinking about the public good, the public sphere. We have to unite across sectors. And that's what has to happen. I think generationally something that has changed, to answer my question about courage, you remind me, Jane, of the isolation and the focus on individuality that I think is crippling. And I think technology, our heavy reliance on social media, our phones. Young people have become content in thinking that they can be happy all on their own. And it's easy to do that because guess what? It's hard to come out. It's hard to be together. I think it's harder for a certain generation to do that now.

1:12:15But I think what I've learned in these many years, just as you've learned, Jane, and I know you have too, Bethann, is that we we don't do anything on our own. That that's not, you know, that individuality isn't a virtue. You know, standing on, just on your own and getting to a place, I got here on my own. That seems like a sad way to get anywhere. And plus, they don't even go to the movies. Yeah. It's true. I can't get myself used to do a movie. I cannot. I can get them to watch a television show, but I cannot get them to watch. Yeah, that's very true. They really won't even go into a movie theater.

1:12:53where you do have a feeling of being with others naturally, they said, no, I got it. I got it right here. And I think that, for me, I think it helps in my feeling of longevity, my heartiness at this stage in life, is that whether it's fashion or hair or dyeing my hair or staying in shape or eating right, it's mostly community. Yes, it's mostly having a big, broad set of people who I count on, that I feel nurtured by. And while eight years in the White House were depleting in one way, it was also reinforcing because it was eight years of connecting to this country. That's a nice note to end on.

1:13:41I will say this has been deeply inspiring for me. I came in here with totally different expectations and I'm moved. It was really special. So thank you for having me. It was really incredible. For me as well. Thank you all for taking time out of your lives. I mean, this is one of my dream conversations. It really is. And it has lived up to every expectation. Let me just tell you, when I grow up, I want to be like you both. And you as well, Jenna, coming up, baby. You're the baby. I'm only four years younger than you. Yeah, but that's a baby. I'm calling you the baby. Because I'm the baby. It's never happened to me.

1:14:19I stay with you in that. I really want to say that too. I am so grateful. And as you've said, being loved, whether it be your male friends or your female friends, having that respect and honor from so many is so, it's been like a chariot for me. But I think what's important for these conversations is that there are going to be a lot of women of all ages and men too that are going to hear this. And it's about sharing and the level of vulnerability that everyone displayed here. This is, to me, this is like a ministry of conversation, you know, because people will look and say, well, if these women think this way, feel this way, have lived this long or growing this way, then they're still, oh, it's so important.

1:15:03I quote Jane often, like I said, about like even about you never feel old if you're not sick. If you're, you know, that's so true, though. When you start feeling sick and you fall into that. And I'm really grateful for this conversation too because no one thinks to have them. Yeah. Well, thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Well done, you guys. All right. Tequila, tequila, tequila. Eat, eat, eat.

1:15:45Thank you.