IMO Presents: The Look Live with Tracee Ellis Ross

27:41And that wound up, I was the kind of kid who didn't get hurt. I got mad. And I had to find a way to direct that anger and for me when it was turned on me as like which happened as I said early on in the first campaign it was very clear that when I got really effective on the campaign trail and started attracting huge crowds and big rallies sometimes bigger than the candidates that we were uh battling and this happened in the democratic primary let me be clear that these were our people who were going after me because this started when we were running against our party um the beginning of turning me into an angry shrew who uh diminished her husband who was who didn't love her country who was unpatriotic and it's like there is absolutely no way that people who are actually seeing me in the world are seeing that.

28:45These people are lying. They are making some stuff up because they're trying to win. So I understood that and knew that I had to quickly define myself so quickly. Because I was like, if I let them define me, I won't even recognize myself. And I didn't even feel like I had the support of the campaign in that because they were white folks too primarily I don't think they even knew what to expect or to understand how to understand how to navigate that so I knew immediately and I knew this coming in as first lady that I was in charge of my story my narrative I had to be smarter than them I had to outsmart everyone and that came to everything I did and say said including what I wore um so So I just controlled my narrative and did the work.

29:38Yeah, I feel like what that applause is and what I wanted to say is thank you. Because your, I don't know if it's courage, but your sense of, your embodied sense of self that continued with grace and dignity, I get chills, to just keep being you, we all were mirrored back in that. It was, I mean, they're standing up. Yeah, yeah. It was and is so important. And with you in that position, it was just like, all the time. It just felt like, and I feel like that's part of what I saw in looking at the book. It's like it became so much that's just who you are, that I almost forgot. And looking back, you're like page after page after page.

30:32And yes, the dresses are beautiful. Yes, the clothes are appropriate and respectful and all of the things and brought in other designers. But we see you standing there with your heart open, hugging people, talking to people, and connecting with people in a way that was just so incredibly important for all of us. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It was an honor. Let me say this. Let me just be clear. It was the honor of my life. And it was easy to do it for the bigger cause. And we were, Barack and I were built for it, you know. And we were capable of handling it. Didn't know it. Didn't know it.

31:16But this is what I want everybody to know. Like, you know when you can do a thing. You know, you know when you can handle some mess. And we had prayer and a lot of support. So through it all, you know, I felt people, I felt like we were all doing it together and never felt alone in this process. So thank you all for being there for us.

31:46You stepped into a role that carried a preconceived idea of femininity and wifedom that was founded on the landmines of racism and misogyny. What the First Lady wears is one of the main ways, which you've already said, that a First Lady has talked about. It comes with so much historical expectation. How do you feel about the fact that the First Lady is an archetype for wifedom and femininity? Yeah, I don't agree with that. Don't agree with that. That it's, you know, it is a completely throwback on, it's a definition that has no current status in how women actually show up in the world today. Do you think that that impacts the room that we've made for a woman to be president?

32:39Well, as we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready. that's why I'm like don't even look at me about running because you all are lying you're not ready for a woman you are not so don't waste my time you know we got a lot of growing up to do and there's still I'm sadly a lot of men who do not feel like they can be led by a woman and we saw it what was the question I just said so we don't need to ask it again you answered it so femininity wife yeah yeah I mean I think we still have growing to do in that regard and And, you know, we can see how progress can be made and things can be snatched back when it comes to us owning our power as women.

33:39But, yeah, I was, Barack and I, our marriage to me feels more traditional, that we are partners. We are equals. We are, have always been. and that's how our relationship was defined at the very beginning when we first met one another. We were both Harvard Law students. He was my advisee. I was at the firm before he was. But I also recognize his brilliance and ambition and the things that he can do that I cannot. They're just an excellent intelligence in him that I just can't keep up with sometimes. But I think that helped me understand that I had to do the work with him to make it work. And he knew that.

34:35He knew that we would be doing this together or we wouldn't be doing it at all. But with that said, I felt like I worked and supported the commander-in-chief. Yes, he was my husband, but when our team, whenever we did anything, my motto was, let us not block the work. Let us never do anything that's going to get in the way of getting things done. And that came to how I dressed and what I said. This is why it's like, you know, I was very cautious to make sure that we matched high end designers with low end designers because they would have dinged the heck out of me had I shown up in some Chanel and some Louboutins every day you know if I was trying to walk in the garden in some high heel shoes they would have come they would have ate me alive as being disconnected and you know um but I was also not that woman I was a working woman you know with a strategic mind and ideas about what I needed to do.

35:42And I didn't want the clothes to talk louder than the work that I did. So we were also working to balance that. And I had to have a team of people in Meredith Koop, who was my stylist, who quickly understood the pitfalls of what we had to deal with. She had a steep learning curve, too. So all of that was a part of being a partner. You know, the first spouse is not elected. I did not try to become him. I tried to use the power that I had to support him and to elevate the issues that I cared about. And fashion, whether the West Wing understood it or not, as I used to tell them, it's like all the stuff we do on the East Wing, from the clothes I wear to Bo and Sunny and Malia and Sasha and Grandma.

36:34Those were five approval points that he got, extra approval points that he got because we provided a balance, right? I mean, you don't want to just see the commander in chief as this stodgy dude in the Oval Office. He needs to be humanized, right? And we help to humanize him to show the light part of When we talk about the East Wing, it is the heart of the work, you know, and to denigrate it, to tear it down, to pretend like it doesn't matter. It is like it can just be representative. You know, it is how you think about that role. I think that plays as much a part in being able to make that kind of decision when you're renovating.

37:25we didn't we just didn't have that kind of relationship and it starts at the top and it starts because I was I'm married to a man who wanted an equal you know he wanted somebody who was his partner you know as you're talking about that I I've never heard it expressed that way but there's something I talk about also in Hollywood and the industry around cultural currency and it's hard for all industry and people to understand the importance of it and the balance that it offers and there's no dollar amount, there's no real box to check, but it is the heart of it. And so I'm glad you expressed that that way.

38:07I think it's incredibly important. You mentioned Meredith. So you wrote this book in collaboration with Meredith Koop. She started as an assistant stylist in 2008 and took over as your primary stylist in 2010. I do kind of want to read a little bit of what she... Please, yes. So one of the things that Meredith wrote, she said, I thoroughly educated myself on the details of each event, absorbing information as though I was studying for a test. I kept abreast of current news and politics that would inform tone. What was the event generally and has it happened before? What is the historical significance?

38:45Has the First Lady attended in the past? If so, what did she wear? Who else is participating? Who is the audience? What time of day does it take place and where? Is there an outdoor component? What are Michelle's movements exactly? Is she speaking? Is there a podium? On and on and on. Events abroad would amplify this research exponentially, requiring additional collaboration with state departments to navigate delicate cultural relations. Once I understood, once she understood the landscape of the upcoming events, then she would begin to strategize and envision a fashion narrative. People just thought you were looking for dresses.

39:27That's really, I mean, this is why I wrote the book y 'all. Yeah. And it's like, you think I'm just putting on some dress oh that's a nice dress look at that purple or blue should we go with pants or a skirt you know like but I think the reason I found that so wonderful and also staggering number one is in the culture that we're in now so often we don't understand the magnitude of process the depth of process what it actually takes to make something look effortless to make something look exceptional. And what was so beautiful to me is the care to understand all of the context so that not only could you go and show up and do what you do, but so that the narrative is on the right thing.

40:18And it takes all of that care. It's not something that happens, you're like, I don't know. And then as Meredith continued in the position with you and in that role, learning how to communicate with designers and say, that's not going to work. There was one little tidbit that really was so beautiful. She was like, Michelle was wearing a wrap dress, but she can't sit in a wrap dress, but it was a wrap dress, but she had the thing sewed up. She had Diane von Furstenberg redo the wrap dress for me so that there was a panel because the wrap dresses were perfect. They were elegant. They were easy to wear.

40:56But you all, ladies, you know the wrap dress. You just sit down and it's just, woo, looky here. You know, but to be that young and have the confidence to go to a designer and go, this is not going to work. You're going to have to cut that in half that needs to become that sleeve is coming off I'm sure she made if you all are here I know she made some of you mad right because she you know she was like I know what is going to work for Michelle and it is it is this is the interesting thing of the first lady is famous but as I said I am not a starlet I'm not a celebrity in this in the traditional sense I have to show up ready, but I still have to be connective.

41:42And the work was more important than that. And the fact that I had somebody as smart as Meredith, it allowed me any authenticity that you see meant that once I put something on, I was like, I can't even think about it. Just like back there in this dress, I was like, you know what? I don't know. I hope things lay well, but my team knows don't touch me because I am not here for the hair to be right in the right place. I want to be here for the person that I'm talking to. I want to be present in the moment. And if I can't trust that you guys have done that work, I will be self-conscious. And I was never self-conscious.

42:19I was always like, you know what? Meredith is going to make sure it's right that my, you know, nothing is hanging out and I can do the work, you know? And it was also because I was a different kind of first lady. I was completely active. I mean, you didn't know, and this got Meredith, and she'd be like, you know, she's going to get on the floor with those kids in that dress. And I'm like, yes, I am. So, and I'm always game. It's like, okay, I have caught footballs. I mean, I have run relay races. I played with puppies on the South Lawn. I mean, We have broken the jumping jack world record. I've jumped double Dutch.

42:57I have, I, Lord, if it was a thing to do, we were moving. Let's move. And you couldn't show sweat while you were doing it. And that gets the hair because that meant, ooh, you know, Johnny, those people would be like, Lord, she's going to sweat that out. And I'd say, yes, I am. And we better have your flat iron ready to redo everything. So good segue.

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46:32Let's talk about the hair. Okay. You wrote, in a way, being first lady was just another professional experience where I had to conform to a white environment of appropriateness. And you said that you kept your hair straight throughout the White House years so it would not be a talking point. Your journey is much like that of many of us black women who have felt that we have had to conform to beauty standards that we didn't see ourselves in. How did you keep your hair healthy with all that heat? What day was wash day? Did you sleep in rollers or a bonnet? And how'd you keep your edges?

47:17All answered in the book. All answered in the book. Growing up in Chicago at the time that I did extensions, wigs, all of that, that wasn't a thing. You went to your hairdresser every week and mine was Ronnie Flowers, Ed Van Cleef. I had a relaxer like everybody else did because I was a professional. And so I wasn't in the world of hair and what celebrities were doing. So for the first couple of years, that was me wearing my hair, getting it done two, three times a day. And Johnny Wright, who was my stylist throughout the White House years, with Yanae as his assistant, you know, they knew, girl, you're not gonna keep, you're not gonna have your hair if we keep doing this.

48:01And I was like, well, what am I supposed to do? And that's when he finally convinced me to start using extensions and wigs and things like that. But I had to tell them, look, I cannot show up with my hair, my length, and then down my back the next day. You know, I said, we can't live in that world, so just settle down, partner, you know. Because they wanted to, and I was like, uh-uh, uh-uh. I'm about to go into a school with children. I can't have all this, you know. So the deal was, okay, we'll do this, but it has to be exactly my hair. So that was the plan, and that saved my hair because this, you want to talk about, I wanted to come out of the White House with my sanity, my children intact, and my edges together.

48:56That was really the directive. So hair health was a big part of that. And then I realized, well, that's what everybody's doing in Hollywood and, you know, for women and black women. And things in the, you can talk about this because the hair journey for women in TV has changed significantly. Because there weren't people who knew how to do textured hair at all. No, we all, I mean, we're not talking about me. I'm like, why are you looking at me? But it's also, I knew that that is. It is a journey for all black women, whatever industry you're in. Yes. And in Hollywood, it is a thing. And now they're finally having hairstylists that are trained to be able.

49:37But what that was is that you had to learn how to do your own hair. Exactly. And that's part of where Pattern was born from. Yes. Because the... Pattern Beauty. Get it. Get it. For curly, curly, and tight textures. Sold at the drugstore near you. Yes. We exceed the needs of the curly, curly, and tight texture community. We're going to charge you for sponsorship. Question number 11. But yeah, I think I can't imagine. I'm grateful that you were able to leave with your sanity, your family, and your edges intact. That's right. And that you were able to find a solution that would allow you to continue doing what you do without that being a thing that was going to damage part of you.

50:24That's right. That's right. And I also grew my relaxer out, people. I mean, that was the thing. It's like, I don't even really need a relaxer. What are we doing? My girls, we had that little relaxer for a minute. I stopped relaxing their hair. So we learned about hair care. We learned about hair health because I had two technicians that cared. And the truth is, the bangs, you know why I wore bangs? I read about it to give my edges a break, y 'all. That was the one thing. It was like to stop pulling my hair back, we put the bangs in. I mean, it was a practical, and I had no idea it would be all that, you know.

51:05Well, bangs have a lot of connotation. What? Do what? Bangs are you're going through a change. Is that what it is? You've had a breakup. Oh, she cut bangs. Is that really? I missed that. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I mean, but people say, you know. So is that what people thought, that I was going through a breakup? I just thought you looked great. I don't think anyone thought that. I think you look great. That's what it was. They were like, oh, she looked great. I thought this was so interesting because I didn't realize, again, you say it's 10 years since you guys have been out. Which is like, what?

51:38The Crown Act was not introduced until after you left the White House. Fascinating. The natural hair movement began to take off during your White House years, but you stayed with straight hair. it was two months after you left the White House that the world saw your natural hair and some pictures of you on vacation can you talk about the freedom that you've experienced post White House both with your hair and in your style I love having a team but I I have to learn how to live without a team because that's the other thing that we become captive to our teams to our hair hairstylists. Like, don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about.

52:16You know, there are people that won't pay the rent because they are going to go get their hair done, right? And I couldn't, I couldn't solely rely on having these young people fly around everywhere with me coming on vacation. It's like, we didn't have it like that. So, I always had to be able on vacation when they weren't going to be around to be able to do my own hair. So that was, it was, those decisions were decisions of control for me. And I didn't, I, you know, I didn't grow up with a team, even though I had a team. I am a person that feels like you should do the stuff on your own, right?

52:52So I never wanted to feel captive. So I always, I learned how to do my own makeup. I learned how to put a lash on. I learned how to do my own hair in the same way that you've said, because you can't have people with you all the time and I knew that there was going to be life post White House even though my team still works with me part of that was control and the decision to get my hair braided was primarily a continuation of that freedom you know it's like a lot of people want to know well what do braids mean what does she mean look y 'all what does she mean it's what you know I mean that's what white folks are it's like what does What does that mean?

53:33What are you saying? We're saying nothing except I just don't want to have to do my hair every day. And I want to go swimming. I don't want to have to worry about it. Let me explain something to white people. Our hair comes out of our head naturally in a curly pattern. So when we're straightening it to follow your beauty standards, We are trapped by the straightness. That's why so many of us can't swim and we run away from the water. People won't go to the gym because we're trying to keep our hair straight for y 'all. It is exhausting and it's so expensive and it takes up so much time. Braids are for y 'all so we can work harder and focus on the work.

54:26So why do we need an act? an act of law to tell white folks to get out of our hair. Don't tell me how to wear my hair. Don't wonder about it. Don't touch it. Just don't. It just is. So braids for me was part of the The freedom of, like, I just, I want to work out and play tennis, and I don't want to have to have a team, and braids are beautiful, and they're versatile, and they protect your hair. They're a protective style. And I love them. I love wearing my hair in braids. So I knew I was always going to go back to braids, which I have done. and I knew it was important even though I couldn't, I didn't feel like I had the leeway to wear braids as First Lady because, look, anything different that we did, a fist bump, my arms out, y 'all, come on.

55:34You could pretend like I could wear braids, but this is where you just have sense. It's like I didn't have time to explain this to the world. It was just like, I'm trying to get people healthy and protect military families. I just didn't have the time to explain these braids. So I just didn't do it. It's like, that's just one fight I'm not going to take on. I'm doing a lot. So there was, it was a decision, but I knew that I wanted to make that statement at some point. And wearing my hair and braids when we unveiled our official White House portrait to me was the chance, because that was really the first and only time we went back to the White House since we've left to unveil those portraits.

56:20That was plenty. And so, as the first black first lady, I thought it was important to be part of this growing movement to say, for anybody who's wondering whether braids or locks or anything else we do, our natural hair, our short hair is appropriate, stop asking. If we're wearing it and we're doing the job in it, it is appropriate. Trust me. Just worry about the product. So, yes, I wanted to make that statement in the White House. Thank you for that. Yeah.

57:12Okay. Okay. The DNC suit. Oh, yeah. The Muncie suit. Well, I... And that was a braided look that was exceptional. Yeah. I remember, like, every angle of you was amazing. Yeah, yeah. So, I personally, when you walked out... You know what? Wait, before I do this, because this is shoes. Are you always in a flat? Is it comfort? Is it your preference? Not a flat, but a lower shoe? It depends on what I'm doing. That's a good question because, you know, when I'm giving a speech, I want to be grounded. Uh-huh. Right? So I rarely wear a big heel because there's just something about, like, if I'm trying to deliver, I don't want to be teetering.

58:04Yeah. I don't want to be unstable. so I like a lower heel so I don't have to focus on the heel you know even just walking out on stage you know what I'm thinking when I'm walking out on stage anytime please tell us don't fall don't trip don't trip just don't trip don't fall watch your step take it slowly before anything walking down that's why I've never fallen down the stairs of Air Force One because I'm thinking don't fall don't trip girl do not become a meme that's what I'm thinking right there don't fall Don't fall. So, you know, the shoe that I wear. And so I often will do, especially for a live DNC speech, you get one chance, it's live, it's got to be right.

58:47So I have a ritual what I do with big speeches like that. I practice in the morning because I just want to get the speech. I want to know the speech by heart because you never know when a teleprompter is going to go down or something's not going to work it's live tv I do it in flat shoes behind because they usually have a teleprompter behind for all the speech givers to practice I do it once and then I put on the shoe that I'm going to wear and I do the speech again so that by the time I come out it's locked in and then I can deliver it right and locked in from your feet to all the way up and that's how the decision about clothes works, right?

59:30So that suit was, Meredith, you know, we had a fitting for this event. She brought a bunch of suits. We put that on and it was clear. I was like, dang, this is a bad suit. You know, that's usually how I pick stuff. It's like, this is bad. You know, we weren't thinking about symbolism or Wakanda or nothing. I don't know what all that was about. It was just like, this is a clever suit. You know, it was modern and different and a little edgy, which is sort of what the path I was on anyway. And this is when I told Jerry, my braider, I wanted that long power braid because I didn't want a lot of hair.

1:00:12So it's things like that that I thought about. But once we picked the suit, it's about the work. You know, it's like this suit I know I feel good in, I feel clean in, and now I can do what I'm here for, which is to deliver a message. Now, y 'all didn't listen, but we won't go there. Okay, some of y 'all did. Some of y 'all listened. We hear everything you say. We, some of y 'all did. You said, what's the expression that you use when you like the look? You said, oh, this bad? This bad. You know what mine is? What's that? Oh, my God, I like this girl. Oh, yes. There's that, too. I say it all the time.

1:00:50I'm like, oh, I like this girl. Yeah, she's good. Where's she going? Who's her? Okay. I want to be where she is. Versace dress. This Versace dress. Here it comes.

1:01:04Now that's a dress. I mean, the color, the whole thing. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. That was me, too. Oh, my God. It was so good. It was so good. Was it cold? Because chain mail can be cold. It wasn't that bad. that it was heavy, which is a trip when you have three hours and a long photo line and all that. But luckily, I was healthy and in shape. But that was a beautiful dress. This was the last state dinner, Italy. So Versace in Italy, that's how Meredith was thinking. And she told me this story that this dress was shown in a different chain metal. And this is her. She was like, huh, rose gold would be beautiful.

1:01:49So she went to Versace and said, can you do this in a rose gold? Now, the process with a state dinner dress is that we do fittings like a month in advance, and we always have a few options, right? Because ladies, zippers break, stuff doesn't work, you fit it once, it comes back, and these dresses have to fit perfectly. And we never know until the night of whether something is going to happen. So we always have a backup. So I usually have three dresses ready. And then I don't decide until that night what I'm going to do. And it's a surprise to my husband, too. So that became one of our rituals that I talk about in the book, that that was kind of like our only really cool date night that we could have.

1:02:37And so we had a ritual where he wouldn't know what was going on, and the house was abuzz because the music is playing, and the girls are with us getting ready. and we got champagne and the hors d 'oeuvres from downstairs and mom is waiting and they don't know what I'm gonna wear and I walk out into the salon into the crosshout where Barack is waiting it's like prom and then everybody follows the butlers come out and all of trifecta they come out and they just wait to watch him to see what he's gonna say especially Meredith he was like he better like this she's usually looking at him like don't ask right because he's also a man he was like uh why is there all this?

1:03:19What is, what's this? And I'm usually like, it's fashion, okay? You don't understand. So we did that with this dress. And so it was just beautiful. And when I put it on, it felt good. It fit like a glove. And we were being edgier. The second term, it was the last state dinner so this dress was always it's also like a bye it's like this was like I don't even care what you think because guess what we don't need no more votes you can like it you can not I'm gonna be sexy as I don't know what I don't care no more that was this dress too that was the statement yeah um whose style do you admire whose style oh so many I admire your style I do I mean I I really do your mother's style I love the I love the divas you know I did um one of the other look episodes podcast that you'll hear we do this beautiful conversation on aging in the public eye with me Jenna Lyons Jane Fonda and Bethann Hardison it is a conversation y 'all and Jane Fonda oh she's like 87 she showed up in this white suit just crisp clean together I was like, that's what 87 is, you know?

1:05:02So I like any, I really like a clean, like the clean, solid, timeless looks. Um, and anyone who sports those looks, I admire their style. Um, we've talked a lot about wearing clothes to send the world a message. What do you wear to send yourself a message? Oh, anything that makes me feel good. I mean, I, I do not pick something that doesn't make me feel good. I never wear something to follow a trend. I wear things that make me feel beautiful. And that is probably the first criterion. And then I wear things that allow me to forget about what I'm wearing and do the work. um so I do want like I forgot about this dress and this cape this whatever this is doing you know it was fun to walk out on but I'm done I'm not thinking about how it's folding and I'm sure Meredith is losing her mind because she was like the angle is wrong move your foot and uh I tend not to worry about that once I'm in a moment um and to these days uh you've the book takes my arc from childhood till today.

1:06:25So you see the variations. And when I did the Becoming tour, it was about pants. I didn't want to be in a dress. I had done enough little lady dresses during the eight years. And so they were glamour suits. And then The Light was the book that I wrote after COVID. And I wanted that to be more personal, a smaller venue. I wanted to be more relaxed. And we went more urban. That's when I had my hair and braids. All of those iterations are me you know a cool jeans outfit a funky barrel jean cut a t-shirt um you know just anything that fits well and that's one of my styling advices one of the things i learned is that it's worth getting your stuff tailored um and that was like if if if you're looking for any kind of hack um That's the biggest one is rarely does anybody, you know, fit the dress size.

1:07:21We are all too diverse in our sizes. And to make even affordable clothes look clean and sleek, getting them fitted to you, getting a T-shirt tucked, a shirt pulled in. If you go to your local dry cleaners. And we did that with Target dresses and J.Crew. Everything was tailored so that it fit me the way it should. it would be the right length, it would be if we needed to cut a sleeve off or add fabric. The links work and all of that stuff matters. So all of that makes all these different styles accessible to me because they're all parts of who I am. So I don't think there's one way. I think I'm still exploring, discovering who I am, playing.

1:08:07The beauty of playing in fashion is still part of it, you know, and I still love to play. So it, I'm, and I'm still evolving at 61 years old, y 'all. Still figuring it out.

1:08:25I've said it throughout this conversation, but I will say it again. Thank you. Thank you for how you have shared yourself with us through the eight years, through your books, through this new book, The Look, Go Get It, Christmas, holidays, coming up. Thank you for being you, and thank you for this beautiful conversation. Thank you, Tracy. Thank you for your friendship. You all, New York, you all, thank you so much for coming out tonight and being a part of this live conversation. I love you all. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, guys. Good night. Be safe. Thank you.