Let’s Talk About Hair

27:46Black hair, really. It's just like, oh, geez. Always a thought. But I discovered I met my D.C. friends, a lot of girlfriends from D.C. So now I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city. I'm on the East Coast, and I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who live in D.C. because there were a ton of braiders in D.C. And that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. So sophomore year, I visited one of my girlfriends, got my hair braided. Then I went back to my salon, found a braider, and I started wearing my hair braided in sophomore year.

28:30And a lot of that was because I just needed, I needed to be efficient. I needed to be focusing on class and having fun and not worrying about getting touch-ups. That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free. Yes. Protective styles will really change your life and allow you to just like live. Yes. But I wanted to ask you guys too, like once you got that freedom, college or going off to do your career or whatever. Did you guys ever do anything that you're like, now left to my own devices? Like, why did I do that? Cosmetology school, I did everything under the sun. I had pink hair.

29:11I had blue hair. You did the color of it all. Like you bleached your hair. I bleached my hair. You lifted your hair, bleached it, and then put color on top of it. And then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair. And I just blame myself. I know better now. And I was, you're experimenting in cosmetology school and you're just trying different looks and you're trying to be a creative. But again, it's also one of those things where my counterparts were doing all these different things with their hair. So I was like, I'm gonna do the same thing too. And I'm learning about this. So why not?

29:40I'm gonna put the water in my hair too. That was your water moment. But my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care, nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever. and you know what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture but I didn't I was just like well I'm in an educational institute so of course they're gonna guide me in the right way right and it wasn't and afterwards I was like okay so then I was like no more color no more nothing I'm just gonna take a break from it all but it was definitely an experiment yeah what about you I'm trying to figure it out.

30:19I changed you so much. Yeah, I think honestly, I've been so secure in the styles that I like since I was little. I really didn't change it too, too much. It's so funny because I learned, I'm like thinking more about the mistakes that happen after like transitioning to one style to the next. So like when I get my hair braided and it's time to take them down, It was just me by myself trying to take my hair down, you know, trying to be grown. Like, okay, I got you, mom. I got it, mom. I was like, my hair's, you know, stayed the same. I'd cut it up here. You could have it right. Yeah, I'd cut it here.

30:59Oh, girl. And not here. I didn't know you had to start here. Right, right. I cut it up here. You were like, it's not that. Yeah, yeah. And then I'd take pictures in my little bob, my little braid bob that I made. Like, oh, this is cute. And then I'd take it down, and then it just looks really bad. It would be like part of it's up here, part of it's down here. And it just was, yeah. But I'm thinking about those kind of little mishaps that just taught me more about just my hair overall. I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step. I've dyed my hair before, but never pink and blues.

31:41Never the pinks or the blues. Yeah, it's currently dyed now. but the first time I dyed it was like a blonde like it was like a honey blonde yeah it was a honey blonde and it was 2020 you know no one really cared we was inside we was in the house and yeah that was like the one time where I really I really dyed my hair and it was funny because back then you know everything was really really remote of course during 2020 so it was the BET Awards and I had to present in my backyard. And that was the first time people saw like the honey blonde. Yes. We got to pull up that picture. Yeah, right. Y 'all can pull it up.

32:25Y 'all can pull it up. But I think that was definitely, that was a time. Let me just say that. That was a time. And then there was comments where I was like, why is her hair blonde? Like, is that a wig? And I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like, am I here? I thought I liked it. Yeah, I was just trying stuff. and my mom was like, it's okay. Look, effle. Like, you like your hair? So I did a video that was just like addressing the haters and that was very, very funny. I love it. I love the humor, but the clap back and all of that, that brings up such a good point about our hair is people touching it.

33:05Petting us, right? And like, how have you guys navigated that? because I've definitely been on the New York subway and someone's hand is just like in my head. Where I've had superior, like at jobs, touch my hair. And it's just like... So what did you do in those instances? When I was on the subway, it was like, no, please don't touch my hair. Actually, a hot tip, never touch a black woman's hair, period. You shouldn't touch anyone's hair, but like, Solange wrote a whole song about it. You can go listen to it on Spotify. but like don't touch my hair, please. When it was in the workplace, it was harder because this is a superior.

33:47And so like, and it was a white woman. And it's hard because you're like, in that moment, you just feel like me too. Like you just feel like, oh my God, that was uncomfortable. How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry in your husband's arms. And that's what I did. But, and then cussed her out like, Like, you know, at home with my friends. But, you know, that is a very unique experience. I feel like most Black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair. How is that? Like, I want to feel it.

34:21What's the texture? And like, but unsolicited. But I think that's why conversations like this, why I wanted to talk about hair in the look. Because I think I want us as women of color, all the women of color in the world with all the different textures. I want us to get comfortable with the subject of our hair and owning our beauty and being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these circles of conversation to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they take for granted or they don't offer us. That's true. And this is completely true when it comes to the workplace.

35:10I mean, the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel is really a presumptuous kind of, wow, how does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair? And let me tell you, as first lady, even though I wore my hair braided in college, when it was time for me to walk into that law firm, to start getting jobs, it wasn't even a question in my mind. You just knew. It was just like, it wasn't up for discussion. There was a standard of hair, and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually, to get your hair blow-dried. I mean, I had a standing, we all know the standing appointment.

35:58That is weekly. I have a sin every two weeks. Well, I had one weekly. And it's costly and it's time consuming in ways that a lot of people don't understand. Coming into the White House and we were having conversations, I came in with a relaxer. And I knew the importance of making broader statements about hair as the first Black first lady. But I will tell you, I consciously understood that at least until people knew me, you know, which took eight years, that I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation, which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now, because it always is an important part of a woman and a Black woman's journey.

36:52But I couldn't risk. I know, that was such a powerful statement when you came out and said, America wasn't ready for that. You know, I mean, they couldn't handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump on stage. They couldn't handle your arms out in your portrait. They were like, what is going on? Could you imagine if you came down with some box braids? They would be like, what is that? Why is she wearing her hair like that? You know, like, I think that that's so profound that you were able, like, because, too, you could have been like, screw it, say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud, I'm going to do the things.

37:31But that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically. And there's also, you know, we talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know that generationally people get impatient and they want change now. And change is one of those things. It's like you got to read the room sometimes and feel the time. You know, in my mind, I knew there was going to come a point in time in my public life where I was going to get my braids back in. I was going to reclaim that. But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with health with kids and, you know, military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda, The fashion and hair had to be a backstory for the moment.

38:33Choose your battles. You know what you had to get done. Exactly. But I knew that representation is important. I knew that then. I know it now, which is why we're doing this. Because now it's time. It is, we should now be in a point in our nation's history, you know, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting and embracing the differences of all of us. That there isn't a standard of beauty and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover. That's taste. Right. You know, that's just sort of what you might happen to like. Right. But it isn't the standard.

39:21And we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty. Yes. And our beauty is so powerful and so unique that it is worthy of the conversation and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Marce and Yenay, I want to know what you guys also think about this now in this day and age, the freedom, right? You're styling people's hair and overseeing your salon. You're out here with these amazing braids. And I've scrolled through your Instagram so much, seeing all of the hairstyles that you do. It seems like there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not or present myself in this way and not be, you know, criticized in a huge way.

40:20Yeah. I know for me, it's just about, I think in this day and age too, the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality. Just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else. I think that I am lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that I am flawed in any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make. and you know I trusted that I trusted them I trusted my family I trusted the my my my grandparents and just the people around me that said that it was okay to do what my heart desired and I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said, I trusted that statement.

41:23I didn't trust, you know, anything else. So for me, that's just kind of what I wanted to do. And I am happy during this time. People have started just to tell their own story and have, you know, having their journey speak for themselves when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So as a creator at heart, somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm and just do whatever, that excited me. So, you know, I think that's just the energy that I carry in any red carpet, in anything. Whether I'm in the house, going out to the grocery store, or I'm, you know, going to the next event.

42:11Like, that's just what it is. And I've had my braider, Twy, who is absolutely amazing. In LA, I've had her since I was 13, maybe. Really, when I started little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I started being like, all right, all hands on deck. Who are my people? Who is my team? Who are the people that understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I don't understand in a new light, in a new lane that I can create for myself. I was going to say, do you bring your glam with you? Like on projects, are you very like adamant if someone reaches out to you for a project?

42:53You're like, I'm bringing my hair and makeup people because I'm not leaving it to y 'all to figure out what this face and this hair gives. It's really interesting. It's funny because I've gotten pickier. But I wasn't like this. I wasn't like this at all. I've gotten pickier the more stories that I've had throughout my life and different memories. I wasn't ass-picking, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else. I'm like, all right, let's see who's from New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course. And then there's this lady who came in, didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick and a straightener to put in a ponytail.

43:31It was the craziest thing. I was going to a Prada fashion show at the time. Oh, no. And you're probably like, oh, my gosh, I want to slay. Yeah, that was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time. And my mom came in and she said, all right, you have a good one. The lady left. And she said, where's my, you know, the pom-pom bun? The pom-pom bun. And she popped that bun in. She drew the drawstring. And put some bobby pins in. Got a little scarf. She's like, not today. My baby's not going to be at the product. Luckily, Prada got a scarf. She said, oh, let's go again. Let's make it work. Yes.

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49:09Well, I, on the other hand, like my people. I mean she's been with you in the White House but I want to talk about this level of freedom now because this is you have been giving us looks you two have been creating such moments hair moments talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have now that you can kind of step away from the whole respectability politics of the White House and you can have fun how is it like collaborating do you guys come to each other with ideas. We do. Like, how does that work? We do collaborate. We need all the tea. The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered.

49:53And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole Glam team. It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special is that we collaborate, asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing? Where is she going? What is she doing? And then once we figure that out, then we go, we individually have conversations with her. And I'm like, I'm thinking this. So depending on what the neckline is doing, like earlier we talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful.

50:30And then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us. I think so often Black women, we feel like a slave to our hair. And that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids, right? We are a slave to the beauty industry. We have to go to the salon. We have to buy these products. We have to wrap our hair. We have to do this. We can't just jump in the pool. We can't just—Vacations and freedom isn't really free. And so the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the world and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her. And that she can take care of herself.

51:05And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be. Yes. And so our collaboration process, like she said when she came in, she's just like, you got me out of braids. And I was like, just temporarily, but we're going to set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair. Michelle, are you having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun. We've seen the little buns, the two buns. We've seen all of the things like you're. Yeah, it is so much. It is freedom. It is, you know, I had fun in the White House. Don't get me wrong. And, you know, while I have a team, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team.

51:47Johnny Wright, who trained Yanae, he's moved on. You know, there was my original stylist, Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House. in Jerry who does braids because of the beauty of Yanae is that she's not wedding me to her. If I want to go into braids and she knows the best braider, she's going to get the best braider in. And I developed that relationship. So I think there's a generosity of spirit that goes into this team. It's like, this isn't my client, my thing. You know, Yanae isn't the celebrity in the celebrity stylist, you know, because we really didn't, as I said, we weren't out front on hair and beauty.

52:41So I needed a team that was okay being in the background for 8, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it. So all of that made it always fun. and at the end, all I said to my team when I went into the White House, I said, I want to walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check and my hair in my head. Yes. And that's the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as Black women. But I think all women go through this. I mean, I've heard this from friends of all nationalities. You get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair and the color is too harsh, it burns your hair out, your hair dries out, you know, and that's, it seems like it is traumatizing to have somebody mess up your hair.

53:40Your crown. You know, yes, it grows back, but it feels like an assault, you know? I mean, it's just sort of like, what did you do? And why did you do this? And if you didn't know what you were doing, why didn't you just say so? Right. Yeah. Right? I mean, all of us have experienced that, you know, that sort of trauma. I didn't have that, you know. Because you had your village. And was your village, I know we talked a little bit about this, you know, but like, was your village also supporting your mother and the girls in the White House? Oh, for sure. So you were very intentional about all the ladies' hair, right?

54:17All the ladies' hair. Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say as Marseille, when you were in the public eye, you can't have a bad hair day. And you were getting up at 4 o 'clock in the morning, 4.30 in the morning to work out? Oh, yeah. I would get up at 4.30 to work out. I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and a half process because everybody is efficient, too, because I'm working. It's like we can't, you know, you can't take, I don't have an hour to give. But that's a lot of prodding and heat and that sort of thing. But your hair was able, you talk about having.

54:56We use protective styles. Protective style. We use extensions. We use wigs. Extensions. We used it all. And something that I wasn't used to coming out of a regular person's life where you just use your own hair, you know, what was clear in the team is like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day. sometimes two, three times a day, depending upon, did it rain? Did you swim? And have it stay in your head. And that's, you know, so what I realized is like, oh, the only way you do that is like, you can't use your own hair. I love that you say in the book too, that you wanted it to look like your hair.

55:31Well, that was the other thing, because it was about the independence, you know, because I was like, well, what if you get sick? what if life happens and now I'm in some long weave and I'm like I don't know what to do with this this isn't me that's also the difference with me I always had to look like me that's the other thing the team was like I am not a celebrity I am famous I'm in the public eye but I'm not Beyonce you know and I don't I mean You're our political mama Beyonce or something. But to show up with hair down my back one minute and a snatched ponytail, that would detract. Not because it's me or because it's black hair, but if like every time I'm showing up, you know, it's the ponytail that's walking into the room and it's not me.

56:29And the room shouldn't be looking just at me. It should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to. and it should be looking at, you know, so there was some level of, let's be consistent, you know? I'm not singing on the stage. I'm not, you know, whipping my hair back and forth. I'm actually in somebody's church. Or I'm at a cemetery. I have to look good, but like not. Or I'm at a school. I'm on the ground with four-year-olds. We're just reading. It should have just reading hair. Just reading. Just reading hair. That's all we're doing is reading. Nothing to see here. None of us doubt. Not the hair on the ground.

57:04I'm always curious around the maintenance of it all, right? Are there tips and tricks? Like, even just like beyond the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good but healthy. Like, were there things y 'all were doing like in the White House that we need to know about? Some magic going on. Some magic going on. I think the biggest thing was transitioning her out of a relaxer. Okay. First thing first. And then the use of protective styling. The use of extensions. Just realizing that the… every average person doesn't have to go into extensions. And one of the things that I always tell when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity, I'm like, you don't have celebrity glam with you.

57:46Like, this person can have a wig on today and then have a different wig on tomorrow. They have someone else maintaining it. That's not realistic for you to maintain. And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it, but we were also able to maintain it in a way that if we were sick, if someone wasn't available, that she can make herself look decent. So again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match. Understanding can she tie it into a ponytail. So protective styles, using extensions, staying away from chemicals, and knowing that less is more. Well, and constant conditioning, right?

58:23I was going to say other products that you loved. Did you deep condition? She steamed every appointment. I love that. Like, come on with the steam. Oh, it's got a steam. Yeah. We had a steamer. The steam. Every appointment, every wash day. Because you did have a wash day. Every Sunday was wash day in the White House. Oh, yeah. With everyone. Mom, the girls. Well, mine very, it wasn't Sunday because if I, whenever I had a down day. Right. The girls, because they were in school and, you know, Sundays tended to be their days. She was regular. She was regular. Grandma was, grandmas want regular hair.

59:00But she came to the salon. She was just like, I could just come to the salon. We have a salon in the White House. So. All right. But she would sneak out. Which is just a little room. It was like the kitchen of the White House. But still, I love that. It was right next to the kitchen, too. Oh, Grandma. Yes. Grandma was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis. But I love this tip, steaming. Because I feel like, look, I'm a beauty editor. I get it. Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is. But it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time.

59:28You might do it when you're in the salon. but I love the fact that it's like that was something that was non-negotiable in your hair routine yeah moisture yeah but wait can we talk about the girls a little bit I love how you were talking about how you were always like you know loved on and poured into and we can see that like Sasha and Malia were that was done from at least from the outside looking in and you've talked about it you know in your books of how much you loved on them and wanted them to have this like beautiful childhood even in the public eye. But when it came to hair too, I think it was so interesting that you were dealing with this respectability politics of straightening your hair and having it in a certain way, but also you're raising these two young Black girls.

1:00:16And it's almost like a do what I say, not what I do. How are you pouring into them to say, you have to love your hair the it grows out of your head, be proud of your blackness, all of that. But like, I've got to do this. Yeah. I mean, they never, they never have had relaxers. I think we, I think we did a henna once. We did a character for Malia. And that didn't, didn't once. And it was like, no, no. going back there. And she was in twist until she chose what to do with her hair. I mean, she and Sasha both have different hair textures. Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist. Malia's hair twisted up so nicely.

1:01:05And she had the cutest twist until she became a teenager and was like, I need something else. But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they understood the difference. My hair was work. It was work hair. They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair and she's doing this. Why doesn't she show her natural hair to the world? They could understand the nuance that I have to do this for work, but I want you to be able to be free. You're little girls. and, you know, and your girls and your hair is beautiful. But they, you know, but we, because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they, you know, they saw so many different versions of beautiful and Jerry who had dreads and Yanae who changed her hair every other month.

1:02:02Come on. It seems. She's a hair girly. You know, they were surrounded by all different types of Black women doing different things with their hair, right? Right. And generationally, thank goodness, you know, the Marseille, you guys are coming up with different messages, you know? Right. They do see social media. They are, unlike us, they have Marseille. Right. You know, they have Yara. They have so many, so many real life examples of how different and beautiful we are. I mean, that's how far we've come.

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1:05:36Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama and how did he ever weigh in on your hair? Was he ever coming into the salon like, oh, that's cute? Or any amazing reactions when you walked out and he was like, damn, yes. Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were state dinners, right? And I write about sort of that whole, because the state dinners were fun, right? Because it was the gown and the this and the that and the, you know, everybody would collaborate. And, you know, there was just a routine. We'd have champagne and hors d 'oeuvres for the team and we'd play music.

1:06:14And you just sort of get ready because it's special. It's a gown. And, you know, so we'd be getting ready in the salon. then I get hair and makeup done, then I go into my dressing room with Meredith, we put on the gown, and nobody, he would never see it, right? And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown right before we were getting on the elevator to go down for the official greet. And that's when he would see the look, and everybody would, you know. There's a look. There's just a look. Trifecta, everybody would come out and wait for him. It's like the first look in like a wedding or something.

1:06:50That's how it was. Every state dinner. And again. Would you get butterflies? Yeah. Anticipating how he would see you. What's he going to say? This is so cute. He's going to, you know. We all used to got show friends. They'd all just sit around and watch him. Then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see, like, how does it feel? But he was very much a man. It's like, so what does this mean? You know, if there was a long train or something fashion-y hanging off that he didn't understand, he'd be like, is this supposed to be like this? You know, and it's like, dude, it's fashion.

1:07:27It's way above your K grade. Don't worry about it. You don't understand. You don't need to understand it. Right. Just understand it's fashion. Yeah. And he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle, put the braids in, let the world know. Well, he is always my, you know, he's like, you are beautiful no matter what you do. He's like, I don't even, I don't, I don't notice the difference in anything. So he has always been, is always, continues to be completely affirming. But he understands that women are different, that our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do.

1:08:10he has watched the three women in his life and his mother and his sisters, you know, his mother-in-law. You know, he sees the work that we're required to put in. He respects it. He understands it. But, you know, sometimes he wonders, you know, do you have to do all that? And it's like, dude, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating. Right, right, right. You know, this gown, you know, somebody. Put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation. Your situation too. It's only value added, dude. It's only value added.

1:08:54I love that. When you would step out on red carpets, are you like, I don't know. Like, it's so interesting being a part of the public eye. Like, that whole collaboration for you to go out there. How much of it also is like, are you taking your hair into consideration, right? Because I think a lot of people is like, it's all about the gown. You go to the Met Gala, everyone's asking just about the clothing, right? Or going to red carpet, who are you wearing? But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl. I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges. They're like swirled. Like, look at those braids.

1:09:27How much of your hair is like taken into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet? Completely. I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we break down. I think it just, it only makes sense when if there's a gown or if there's a street wear kind of whatever, it has to fit. It has to make sense. It's telling the overall story, not just that. And Marce, do you have fun in it? Is it fun for you? I have fun. I have fun. I think that's like the triple Leo in me. Like I have lots. I'm a triple Leo. Oh my goodness. I have lots of fun. You like to show up and show out.

1:10:11I like to show up and show out. Because that's just, I'm a visionary. I'm a creator. Like that's just what I like to do. And I just go for it. Like our hair. Like I love the history of our hair. And even like braiding, right? And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair. They would put rice in our hair so we would have food. Like this like ancestral lineage of our hair is so like deep and like strong and amazing that like the fact that we can tell stories and everything we do. It's beautiful. It tells a beautiful journey. And then I look at not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look at like Erykah Badu.

1:10:58I look at Jill Scott. I look at the women who just exude, Jhene Aiko just exude just a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair. And I'm like, wow. I think one pop culture one, even Dochi. Dochi has been killing it recently. Oh my gosh. The overall look, you know? Remember, was it Saturday Night Live where she did the performance and her and all of her dancers were connected? I think that was Stephen Colbert. Or Stephen Colbert. Yeah, late night. show. So amazing. They were moving and dancing with their hair connected to each other. Yeah. Dope. And that's what you mean by like just the overall story that you're telling.

1:11:39It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together. So yeah, I definitely think about it all the time. From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to growth in terms of how first we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us. I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture. Absolutely. I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media, it allows us to curate to like what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration of that all. And we're allowed to, I mean, I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on like following folks because they're allowed to storytell and tell the world that we're beautiful and look at all the ways in which we're beautiful.

1:12:35We're obviously not a monolith. I have a belief that, you know, there was a few years back, we were having this whole like, are you natural? Are you not? Like that whole like internal beef. And I was like, whatever. We are magical, whether I'm giving you a 23-inch bust down. That's right. Or if I have a sky-high afro. Like, it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without, sure, there's going to be input and trolls and that sort of thing. But you can kind of zone it out. And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and, like, put the people in the magazines that you didn't see, Michelle, growing up.

1:13:11Like, that is, I know that that is part of my power. I might not have a lot of, like, money and, like, fame and all of that. But, like, I'm very intentional when I'm writing. I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young women's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between Black culture and beauty. And so I get to be very Black, Black, Black, Blacky, Black, all the time and tell our stories, right? So like that for me is really magical. And I am a half glass full girl. So I do believe we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, Black women, like, come on.

1:13:54We can do anything. We are the creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is, like, amazing. But we're all doing it, which I love. Like, and I just love that our hair gets to be part of that storytelling. Yeah, I just want us to get to the point where it's all right. Yeah. We're getting there. Yeah, that the choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's, like you said, natural extensions, what is it called? The beat down? The bust down. The bust down. Okay, I just got that. Yeah. The bust down. Yeah, I got you. That's new. Yes. She don't do bust down.

1:14:39We're not doing bust down. Straight back, straight back. Like, whatever we want. You talk about, like, wearing straight backs. And it's like, that, all of that is not, like, it's professional. It's beautiful. It's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think it's not. And it is. And we get to be the ones to say, quiet that all down. We're beautiful. We're doing it. You eat. Please eat it up. And then this point in time when it feels like there's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes more important for us to not let the, not to lose ground on this, you know. And, you know, for the listeners of all races out there, you know, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that we understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel beautiful just like they are.

1:15:46And that means how they go to school, when you see them on the bus, when they are your co-workers sitting with you. Just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or giving off some message that it's not. Our hair is really not a message of anything except this is just who we are, maybe just today. Yes. Maybe just for this one moment. How much time we have this morning. How much time we had today. We are more likely than not trying to tell you anything other than, you know, this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment.

1:16:31Yeah. You know, and we're going to need, in this time, we're going to need a country of fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this, you know, and stand with us on this. and I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up, you know, feel good in their skin. The difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing up in my stay, just listening to you, being in the industry, being in D.C., it's a little different for me, but listening to you and you're just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted and being under the public eye, you're already seeing how much progress we've made.

1:17:13Although at times I do feel like, it's like, man, we still got to fight this fight. We still, like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say like, I'm going for an interview. Maybe I should straighten my hair. And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair. And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah. Just so, for people who aren't aware. Crown Act protects women of color with textured hair against hair-based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place, locks, afros, any type of knots of any sort. And it's passed in only 28 states as of July of this year, 2025.

1:17:55And it's extremely important because I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived. And you hear stories, even when it comes down into the military of protocols of how we are, how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair and in the workplace, how they're allowed to wear their hair. So the Crown Act is really not just talking about race, hair-based discrimination, but it's also about education. So you were talking about Roxanne being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture. That is not the norm today, still in 2025.

1:18:37And so it also is going into teaching texture education in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important as well. Absolutely. It's so important. I really hope it gets passed federally because going state by state is one thing. But if we could just make this a sweeping law that you cannot discriminate against textured hair, protective styles. I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there. or forfeit his match. Like it's those sorts of things that are something we don't, we shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom.

1:19:18And we've talked about that a lot in this. Freedom of our styles, freedom for you to be able to like move how you want to move without your team. Like freedom for our children to grow up and to be able to have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they, you know, they have to conform. and being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way. Like, we shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair just to live and thrive. Well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics. Yes. But we're going to get there, y 'all. We're going to get there. We're going to get there.

1:19:54All together. All together. Hand in hand. We're all doing our parts. Twist to twist. Do a little doji. I love it. Yes. Do a little hand. And I go connect. But like it just brings me. Should we all connect our hair right now? But like this is a great way to wrap it up. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this. I just feel like hair is just such this beautiful connector of all of us. And like you guys wear your crowns so beautifully. Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear like how we think Think about our here and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it.

1:20:35And we're going to keep doing our part and like telling the stories and doing the things. And there is going to be real change. I feel it. I feel it. I mean, it's already started. It's already written. It's already written. So thank you guys. Let's just keep these conversations going. Yes. At all the kitchen tables all throughout the land. Yes. Thank you all. Thank you guys. You guys are amazing.

1:21:01Thank you.