Live On Your Edge with Dr. Orna Guralnik

28:32So we can deal with that aspect of things. Like what's happening inside you that you're bored with? Are you not giving yourself enough time to have an inner life? Are you running, running, running? I mean, having three kids and she's 40. So the kids are young. I mean, it's going to be, this is a phase of life where this is not like fun and games. I mean, this is intense. Like you're at the level of like, are you getting any sleep? Is there money around? Like, you're at the level of the body. It's very hard to carve out space to have an inner life during that period. So what are you expecting? I mean, this is a period where you're giving out a lot.

29:21How are you dealing with that? Are you giving yourself the space to really have an experience when you're with your kid? Do you have the moment to actually notice the wonder that's in front of you? The wonder that's inside of you? Can you take 10 minutes in the morning before everyone wakes up and just sit with yourself? Jot down a few thoughts, a few feelings, even meditate for a few minutes. Just create an inner space so that you can notice the wonder around you and inside you. Not only the wonder, the intense anxieties, everything. Like have an inner life before you're turning to your marriage and your husband to kind of supply you with something.

30:02And don't mothers in particular feel guilty about everything, let alone taking the time out to focus on an inner life? How do you even help, especially a new mother dealing with all kinds of guilt, to even think differently about that investment in self? Yeah, there's been quite a lot of recent more feminist literature that's trying to help women think through that, think through the intense experience as a woman is going through as a mother and a young mother. There's so much there. And there's so much, I mean, talking earlier about like all these like Disney ideas. Yeah. So many ways in which mothers are prevented from really noticing what they're going through because you're supposed to be this, that, and the other.

30:54You're supposed to be perfect in this way and perfect in that way. And anyway, all these different ways contradict each other. So there's no way to be perfect. And then you've got your mother over your shoulder. so there's a lot out there now in terms of feminist writing that helps women think through their experience and honor the complexity of their experience as mothers all of this is like inner work before you even turn to your marriage but then let's talk about the marriage similar to like the way you can't you know you can't show up for your kid and say okay, I have 10 minutes now. I'm going to be a perfect mother now for 10 minutes.

31:37Are you ready for me? Yeah. And the kid's like, who are you? And scene. Yeah. Right. So similarly for a marriage, I mean, you have to connect between two people. The connection between two people requires a certain amount of attention or space, a certain kind of space. You can't just show up for dinner and just like, okay, we have an hour. Let's have a really meaningful experience and then we're back home. So what does that mean? First of all, how do people spend their time? I mean, it's really interesting when you do like a detailed analysis. I do it with myself every day and fail. But when you do a detailed analysis of how you're spending your time, a lot of it is spent on basically crap, right?

32:28For me, like my vice is the news. But for other people, it might be, I don't know, doom scrolling through Instagram or... Real housewives. Shopping, bad TV, OCD, like cleaning, cleaning just to empty your mind. Oh, and our endless phones. Endless phones. So how are you spending your time? Are you arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge? Or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be meaningful? And I mean, that's the problem we're all stuck in nowadays, especially with these like phones. And then between, so the couple needs to understand how they're spending their time.

33:14How are they creating conditions where they can have an experience with each other? And by experience, because that sounds like, that could sound overwhelming because you say experience and does that mean we have to go skydiving? And does it have to look a certain way? Because again, in the ideal world, you're walking hand in hand through some magical date, you know, like date nights become a thing, right? So the experience feels like it needs to be big. And especially as women, we think that attention has to look like flowers and Prince Charming coming in. But what counts as an experience? What counts as an experience?

34:01This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security. But for many, especially first-generation buyers, it can feel out of reach. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing. In 2024, they contributed over$7 million to help individuals and families break the cycle of renting by providing support, offering educational resources, and developing tools to build long -term financial stability through home ownership. Their work goes beyond just insurance. They're opening doors.

34:45Through their newly created up payment program, Progressive is helping first generation home buyers move closer to the dream of home ownership by offering eligible applicants a chance to receive a down payment assistance grant. You know, owning a home for me made me feel grounded and also set me up for the future. And as a coach, when your life is dependent on wins and losses, it's really important to have the comfort of a really nice home to come home to, especially for your family. Home ownership is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make, and Progressive wants to help more people take that life-changing step.

35:27Learn more today at Progressive.com slash OpenTheHouse. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. Currently, the American Cancer Society recommends that if you are at average risk, you should begin screening for colon cancer at age 45. There are an estimated 60 million adults age 45 plus in America who are not up to date with their colon cancer screening. So we need to change that by spreading the word about another option. The Cologuard test can help you put your health first and feel more in control of your colon cancer screening process.

36:10This easy-to-use screening test is delivered right to your door and allows you to collect a sample comfortably at home on your own schedule. The sample is shipped back to the lab for testing and results are available within 8 to 10 days. It's simple, but the best part about the Cologuard test is that it allows you to start screening for colon cancer without all the hassle of preparing for a colonoscopy. So you don't have to prep the day before. And by prep, you know I mean fasting and drinking all that liquid. it. You get to skip the stress of having to request off work, go under anesthesia, get a ride home, and all the other hassles that come with an invasive procedure.

36:57And in addition to its convenience, Cologuard is also affordable. Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket. With zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door, let's start prioritizing our health. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription today at Cologuard.com slash podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have had adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer.

37:53The Cologuard test is not a replacement for a colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Kologuard is available by prescription only. This episode of IMO is brought to you in part by Acorns. Back when I was coaching basketball, I saw firsthand how powerful consistency can be. With Acorns, it's the same play. Show up, stay steady, and let time do the rest. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future.

38:36You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns recommends a diversified portfolio that can help you weather all the market's ups and downs. You just need to stick with it, and Acorns makes that easy. Acorns automatically invests your money, giving it a chance to grow with time. This reminds me of the consistent steps it took for me to go from a player into the business world and back into coaching. Sign up now and join over 14 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over$25 billion with Acorns.

39:21Plus, Acorns will boost your new account with a$20 bonus investment. Offer only available at acorns.com slash IMO. That's A-C-O-R-N-S dot com slash I-M-O to get your$20 bonus investment today. From Acorns, Mighty Oaks do grow. Investing doesn't have to be complicated. Acorns makes it easy to invest for your future, plan for tomorrow, and spend smarter today. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash IMO.

40:10What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to come a little bit to your edge, to the thing that matters to you really, and speak from there. Listen to each other from there. Be curious. Okay, say that again. That was deep. All right. It's for each of you to bring yourself to the edge of your experience, to the thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble a little bit, where you're a little not sure about what your mind is going to bring, how you feel about things. The thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble. Yeah. And to be able to be there with each other and ask your partner, like it could be about anything.

40:58Like you could talk about, I don't know. I mean, I think she talked about like the boredom of talking about work every day. Right. You could talk to someone about it or talk about the kids, But everything you talk about, you can get to your edge and to that thing that really, again, made you tremble. And speak from there and listen from there. Ask your partner, like, okay, so that thing happened with your boss. But what did you really think? What were you really feeling in that moment? And what fears and hopes did it bring up for you in that moment? And what did it remind you of from when you were, I don't know, 12?

41:37What did your dad do in that situation? There's so many places you can go with everything. I mean, Barack and I are even, we're in these conversations about what are the experiences that we have with each other that build connection between us, right? Because we are very different people with very different habits, very different needs. And we're constantly throughout our marriage trying to bridge that gap. So this is fascinating to me. But a lot of people talk in terms of love language because all of this experience being at the edge, sharing this stuff, that sounds like, well, your love language is talk.

42:19And if talk isn't his love language, he doesn't want to go to the edge of anything because he just wants you to hold him. That's the experience he wants. Or he wants you to just leave him alone. that's the experience he wants with his wife his love language is solitude well that's interesting too that could be interesting too you can ask plenty about that but but you know what it's true that i rely a lot on language but you can be at the edge with another person without words how you it's a it's being present it's feeling each other there's so many ways that people communicate, that they send, I mean, so much of what transpires between people is actually beyond language.

43:08I mean, you know, we're sitting here together, there's body language, there's facial expression, there's the smell and sound of things. I mean, that's why Zoom, for example, is so reduced in terms of like a therapy encounter. There are many ways that we We can be on the edge of things with each other that are not only in words. It helps when there's a connection between the experience of the body and the words, when it all kind of works together. But you can listen to music together and have a really intense experience with no words. You can, I don't know, watch an amazing movie together and you're having a profound experience.

43:48It's not only words. It's about bringing yourself to a place of vulnerability where you don't know what your partner is going to say, what they're going to do, and you don't know what's going to come out from within you. And you're touching each other in one way or another by being on that edge. And of course, it could be physically, sexually. There's many ways to be. Why are we so scared of that? It's scary. Is it just straight up scary? It is scary. Yeah. I mean, when two people are in the presence of each other in some naked form, I don't only mean naked body, but naked mentally, it is scary.

44:30There's a lot of risk, a lot of vulnerability. And I'll jump in here. You know, from the time young men are developing, we have been the ones who had to ask girls to dance. And you know what we're afraid of? Rejection. Yeah, so scary. And so then you just keep adding that on until you get to be 60 years old and you're still afraid of rejection. Because I'm listening to you, Dr. Ornett, and it's just fantastic. And Kelly and I, my wife, we still have young kids. So we have a 14-year-old and a 12-year-old. But we don't just talk about the kids. We talk about a lot of different things. And now I'm trying to see how can I get my, when am I on the edge?

45:20And - Yeah, maybe you're not on the edge, dude. And it's not superficial because I've never, I don't feel like, oh, I'm too scared to bring up anything. You know, I'm not scared to bring up anything. Although you said you started by talking about rejection. Right. So I'm trying to see how I'm preventing myself from being rejected. Stay out of this. From being rejected, am I not getting to the meat of the matter? I promise you, you can always push yourself further. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. You're like an athlete. You can always go and do more. And maybe we're just right at the surface here.

45:59Because the thing about, because you're still in kid mode. Barack and I are empty nesters, right? So the funny thing is, it's like, now we don't have the kids. I mean, we always have the kids to talk about, right? But not on a day-to-day basis. They live in another state, another city. They're living their lives. And we've noticed how much of our time we've spent talking about them, right? Yeah. So now that we're empty nesters, it's like, well, what are we going to talk about? So we're together all day. And we do this thing where it's like, I'll see him. And it's like, what you've been doing? It's like, oh, don't tell me until dinner.

46:39Because we got to have something to talk about at dinner. So if all throughout the course of the day, I'm getting caught up on his stuff, then it's like we're sitting, staring at each other. You should always have something to talk about. First of all, that's not true. That's not true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not true. It's not true. You're wrong. Wrong again. I'm getting her back for butting into my discussion. No, there's, first of all, there's, I mean, this is a little radical what I'm saying, but there's a way to be next to another person, even in silence, that can be very alive, right? Like, you know, people sit and meditate next to each other.

47:20There's a way that you could be together that is very alive. To me, it's a question of like, again, are you sitting there in a place that you know what matters? to you in that moment? And are you curious about your partner's edge or where they're at? Like, what are you thinking about? A penny for your thought. What are you thinking about? And then do you really go there? Because how many times do somebody ask, what are you thinking about? And you're like, well, let me make up a thing because I don't want to actually tell you what I was thinking about. Which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

48:02That's why guys don't want to have everything. Would that be an edge? That would be an edge. And that would be really interesting. You could like open something up there in a big way. It's like, why does your chewing annoy me so much? Let's discuss. Right. Yeah, I don't know if I'd bring that up. But that's an edge. That's an example of an edge. That's an example of an edge. And actually, symbolically, it's a great example because chewing is, hearing another person chewing is you're hearing the essence of who they are, their otherness, their bodily functions. It is like that. It's like - The chewing thing.

48:37It's not like that at all. No, no. Because the girls and I talk about - There's a thing, you know, misophonia. It's a thing, the chewing. I didn't realize that. That's good to know. Because the girls and I are very irritated with the way Barack chews. Oh my God. Well, that's - Chewing is the essence. Like you hear the otherness of a person, right? You hear they have a body. They have saliva. They're like, you, ah, it's like another person. But why does it annoy us? Should we, is that a statement of something deeper? And if it doesn't annoy you, is that a statement of something deeper? No. That's not fair.

49:18Wrong again, Craig Robinson. That's not fair. Sorry. You got one more strike and then you'll have to leave the table. You guys can be sitting here crunching on cereal and it wouldn't bother me. I'm sure we can find other ways in which we can dig in there. But we digress, though. But it's fascinating that that's even that edginess. Yeah. I like this, you know, that poet Keats that has the idea of like negative capability. Like emptying yourself in a way and really opening yourself up to be curious to another person. Not listening so that you can talk, but listening so you can really hear another person.

49:58Like what matters to them? Well, that's endless. Yeah. And that's an interesting thing. I don't want to genderize this, right? And there are a lot of people who are not curious. They're not open. They have a way of dialogue that is, I'm going to relay information to you and then I'm going to move on. or I'm going to solve a problem or I'm going to, there isn't a curiosity. We aren't taught that. And I wonder whether that's some of what Rachel might be experiencing or might want to consider in her marriage. But as a, yes, I think many people are not taught to look for that in themselves and speak in that way to other people.

50:46But you can cultivate that. Yeah. I mean, that's what I do as an analyst. I sit next to people and I turn my curiosity towards them and I create an environment that invites them to look inside and talk to me. And you can do that. You can do that with your husband, even if he doesn't know how to talk. In the last series that we did, there was this wonderful Chinese-American man, Rex. Oh, I remember him. Do you remember Rex? who I don't think, growing up, I don't think anyone ever asked him a question. That's right. Ever. Yeah. And he had no clue what was going on inside him. No clue. And their conversations in the beginning were like dead ends.

51:36But you just sit there for a few minutes and ask him a question, and suddenly the whole world would open up, and he'd be shocked by what's coming out of his mouth. Just give the person a chance. Ask. Ask. Invite. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm just jotting down some notes. And to Rachel's point of looking externally and the comparing. I mean, I know we haven't begun to scratch the surface of so many other things, but I know she's in that comparative mode, which so many of us are in this day and age. Instagram. Yeah. Compare and despair. I think if you want to look at other people for something useful rather than compare and despair, you can look at other people and get inspired.

52:35Just like you were saying earlier, talk to people in order to learn something. if you have friends, a couple who are doing something well you can learn from them you can ask them about it and learn from them if you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy it's a complete waste of time really like an addiction to be gotten rid of it seems and maybe it's just technology that I don't remember folks trying to be like the Joneses as much as I do today. I agree. I agree. There's something about the younger generations. They live a very different life than ours.

53:28I don't want to be one of those older people that's like, oh, the younger generations, they got it all wrong. It's different the way they're living. Definitely the world on social media calls on people to perform their lives, compare more than we did. Did you know the average bottle of water contains 240 ,000 tiny particles of plastic? And with recent research finding microplastics in our bodies and our blood, it's time to pass on plastic and get a water filter that actually works. Say goodbye to microplastics in your family's drinking water with LifeStraw Home. It's the only water dispenser that filters over 30 contaminants, including bacteria, PFAS, and microplastics, while making your water taste better.

54:27And it has a stylish modern design that you'll want to show off on your counter or your fridge. I know we do. And because it holds 18 cups, you can fill cups, water bottles, and more without needing to refill all the time. We have a really active family, and water is a big part of our recovery. Knowing we could be exposing ourselves to microplastics is troubling, and it's also disheartening. That's why we take steps with eating cleaner, composting, and local sourcing to live a healthy lifestyle. Although we live near a good water source, we use our LifeStraw Home water filter all the time. Cooking, refilling bottles as we talked about, and everyday hydration.

55:10It really makes a difference. In addition, for every product sold, a child in need receives a year of safe water. More than 11 million have to date. Use code HIGHERGROUND for 25 % off of your first purchase of a Lifestraw home product at lifestraw.com. And say goodbye to microplastics forever. This episode of IMO is brought to you in part by understood.org. If you're a parent of a child with ADHD, dyslexia, or any learning difference, and especially if you're navigating special education as a parent of color, you know it can feel like a maze. There's a podcast from understood.org called Opportunity Gap that's here to help.

56:00It's hosted by Julian Saavedra. And in every episode, he talks with special ed teachers, child psychologists, and other experts. They break down things like how to navigate the IEP process, what accommodations your child is entitled to, and how to build a strong relationship with your child's teachers. I checked out the Opportunity Gap myself, and what stood out to me was how practical and empowering it is. It's a resource that really meets families where they are. It also provides tools to help families build confidence in navigating the challenges of children who learn differently. To listen, just search Opportunity Gap in your podcast app.

56:46That's Opportunity Gap. there's a there's a saying in basketball that my assistant coaches used to always say to me you never know what's going on in the other guy's huddle yeah and whenever i was worried about the other team doing this or having better players than this is like stop worrying about the other guys huddle they got they're yelling at each other over there we can win this game it's the same thing in relationships. But I want to turn back to, Rachel talked about, is there something I can do to kickstart our relationship? And that sounds like that could be good or bad, but is there a switch?

57:31Is there something that she can do? Is there something you can tell her that she can do while she's working on this other stuff? You know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I don't believe in quick fixes and tricks. Seven steps to feeling more connected. I know. I don't have them. Yeah. But I think what we're talking about is this inner orientation, both towards every minute you can bring yourself to a place where you're taking more risks. and you can ask your partner to do that. I actually liked what she said about like writing notes, writing notes to each other. It doesn't have to be love notes, but sometimes when people write, they have to go deeper inside themselves to generate something.

58:23So maybe communicating through writing as a way of, in a way, announcing to each other, we're trying to speak from a more interesting place to each other. That could be interesting. read poetry read poetry to each other poetry is like a very direct line to like when I feel like I'm losing something in myself there are certain poets that I turn to and I pull up and it gets me right there listen to music, I mean things that get you there, that get you to a place where you're alive I wanted to ask you guys earlier like what What makes you feel alive? What makes you feel like you're present? In the life I live, which is so abnormal now, it's really, it's like being outside.

59:19You know, I mean, we've, I say this a lot. Something that comes with fame that people don't, that they don't appreciate, they're not cautious of, is the loss of anonymity. Yeah. Like it's hard for Barack and I to just be in the world unobserved. Yeah. And as a couple, so much of your interaction just happens because you two are experiencing the world together, sitting in a park and watching life go by, stopping at a cafe and getting a cup of coffee. And then the conversation turns to the conversation next to you, right? We're always the conversation next to the people we're sitting, right? So you find yourself not looking out at the world.

1:00:10So for me, aliveness these days comes from those kinds of experiences. It's just taking a walk, breathing fresh air, hearing the sound of the ocean and being completely unnoticed and just being able to experience the world in that way, which is I would have never thought that that would be. And conversely, that's what we have fun doing. Like we can go for a walk and we can experience autumn and the trees turning. And our discussions range from the kids to work, to family, to politics. And that's how we generate our joy is doing family things. That reminds me of something else with Rachel and the focus on the husband.

1:01:00And you mentioned it earlier that your spouse can't be everything. I mean, especially at that phase of life. Right. You need friends, you need family, you need more people in your life to carry the intense load of what it means to raise young children. And I've said this before, we now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family, parents and children, toughing it out together in some kind of isolation when in fact, throughout humanity, that's not how families were structured. There was an extended family. There was always a big community. There were always others, cousins, aunts, uncles, neighbors, friends.

1:01:51And some of what Rachel might be experiencing is what typically happens in young families. They're trying to do it all alone, all by themselves. And that's a piece of advice that I give when I'm out and about. What got me through as a young mother was, there came a point in the mother-father relationship when I felt like my husband had all this free time, that he was going to the gym and he was still prioritizing his life and I was just stewing about it. And I realized I can go to the gym too now, but I have to organize it, make it happen. That was sort of the kickstart to me to stop looking to him for what I needed.

1:02:37And once I started doing that, I gave my self permission to do other things, like go out with my girlfriends or have my friends over or build a strong community of other mothers. It made me feel more alive. Of course. Less alone, less bored. Of course. But it was almost like I had to give myself permission because you thought that being a parent meant you spent every waking moment alone with your child by yourself. Yeah. And if Rachel's trying to follow that, she's not bored. She's probably mad. Yeah. Right. Right. She's probably very angry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is what you're describing is a very common phase that women go through.

1:03:29And men are somehow freer from that. They somehow know better how to take care of themselves. Well, let's start there. That's what they focus on, taking care of themselves. Which is important. It is good. It's important. You know, we criticize it. We're envious of it. Yes, we're envious. We should learn to emulate it. This sort of sheer laser focus on one's self. Well, this is a great time to give Rachel two or three tidbits to walk away with. If you had two or three things that we could give Rachel that she could come away with from this episode, what would it be? Okay, so I'm actually going to start with what you said, Michelle, which is like, how about you carve out some space for yourself where you make sure you're alive, you're not bored.

1:04:25Could be like 30 minutes a day and figure out what brings you there, what brings you to a place where you feel alive and content in yourself before you're talking to your husband, before you're thinking about your husband. Number one. Number two, when you're spending time with your husband, how about you try to bring yourself to a place where you're really present and really curious. Like, ask questions. Oh, that's good. Ask questions that will surprise you. Yeah. I love that. You know, if I could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen.

1:05:13But you have this fear of like, well, if I'm complaining, if I'm not doing it all, then maybe I'm failing. Maybe I look weak. Maybe I don't look like I can handle it. And that's all you want to be as a mother is somebody who appears to be handling it all. So you don't want to share those vulnerable moments, those moments of doubt, those moments of loneliness because you might be accused of not being a good mother. Absolutely. And I would add, as a husband and a father, if you were to open up and say to me, I'm worried that I'm failing or I'm worried that I'm not doing it right, I don't have any empirical data, but most husbands would be sympathetic and be helpful.

1:06:02But the reason why I think you don't do it is because you're worried about him being negative. And it's, boy, I'd like to hope that it's unlikely. Well, then we can just tell Rachel I have her husband listen to this episode. Rachel's husband. And it gets back to the husband, Rachel. Rachel's husband. The message from us to you, listen, be curious, be on your edge. And, you know, make sure she gets to the gym and the spa. Dude. Yeah. Focus on her. Yeah. If you're not doing that, Rachel's husband. Right. You think? Yeah. And Rachel's husband should know that his wife's feeling bored, but she's going to work on it.

1:06:48Yeah. And if you're feeling bored, you have to work on it. Absolutely. And go to counseling. That's another thing you can do. I think that that's also a piece of it. Carve out that time. Right. It's okay. hey, I think you may find that in 10 years, you may need another checkup. And I'm finding that because I'm doing therapy now because I'm 60 and at the end, I'm an empty nester. I'm at a different phase in my life. I'm trying to figure out who am I now, now that I can make all the choices that I make are mine. And now how do I give myself permission? How do I deal with the new level of boredom and the newness?

1:07:30So it never ends, you know? Never ends. You're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relationships, and that's what therapy is for. It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own. You know, you'd never try to fix the back of your hair without a mirror. You know, you can't see behind your back. And wonderful therapy, but you also have to find a good one, like Orna, and they're out there. And if you can't find Orna, watch Couples Therapy. Because the beauty of that show is that sometimes you see, often you see yourself in the couples that you selected. Yeah. And then you get Orna's therapy.

1:08:18I highly recommend it. It is truly one of my favorite shows. It really makes me think deeply about myself and about my relationship. and it could be a good kickstart to couples out there who don't know what couples therapy is, but can gain some insights just from watching those amazingly brave people share their stories with all of us. Thank you. Thank you for being here. This has been terrific. Thanks so much, Orna. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

1:09:13I'm Hoda Kotb from Making Space. Okay, you and I are both on the other side of the jump, whether it is life after the White House, or in my case, life after the Today Show. So what has this new chapter taught you about starting something new at any stage, about being a beginner again. I would encourage all your listeners to embrace those transitions, to practice them. It's a muscle and not to run away from change, but to embrace it as much as possible and turn that into something really special. There's a lot of learning that happens on the other side of our fear of change. And I'm living proof of that.

1:09:55You know, nothing keeps me sharper these days as somebody who's getting up there in years than doing something completely new and foreign. And with Misha and I doing IMO, it gives me particularly an opportunity to do something that is completely outside of my wheelhouse of experience that I've had before now. Please give Making Space a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now.

1:10:44KILLE