Love the Process with Cynthia Erivo

33:29Completely unknown. I literally said to her, what do you mean? What does that mean? Are you going to go to drama school? What's drama school? That's a thing? What do you mean? There's a school for acting? You can go to school for acting. You can go and train to be an actor. I said, huh. I had no idea. She said, I think you should. I think you should train. I said, okay. I think you should go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, she called it RADA. And I didn't know what that was. I said, what's RADA? She said, Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, no, I'm not going to get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.

34:10That sounds like I'm not. That sounds royal. Yeah, I'm not going to get into that place. I'm not going to get into it. Marie K. What was it, Ray? Ray, I'm not going to get into it. Love you. Love you. Love you so much. I'm not going to get in. So I'm not going to do it. She said, well, if you don't apply, you can't do this course. Oh, that's a good one. Don't try me with a challenge. Yes. We clearly are figuring that out. Don't tell me I can't do something because then I'm going to.

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36:01So you get into RADA. Yes. And it wasn't all smooth sailing. The story that you write about in the book is that people didn't appreciate your gift because it was a majority traditional white institution. Very much so. And there were many microaggressions that you faced in the process. Can you talk a bit about that experience and how you persevered? Yeah. The very first one I faced was actually kind of immediate, which was so insane. I went there and just before I'd gotten into school to start the term, I got a job doing backing vocals for a group. And the reason I was excited about it, yes, it was lovely to go and do backing vocals with this group, but it also was a means to pay for the tuition outright.

37:00It would pay for the entire thing. And I asked for permission and she said, well, no, I don't think you can. I think it's either you go and do this job and you have to leave or you leave the job and you stay. That was the... That was the administrator's problem solving, helping a student. Correct. Meanwhile, there's another student in my year who is out for two weeks doing a play. Oh, no. Oh, the story. The story repeats itself again and again and again. Again and again. Oh, the hypocrisy. But I spent the first year paying for it. Yeah. I then spent the first year being punished for that, for wanting to go and do that.

37:42Just even asking. For asking. Because then I go, well, okay, I need a job. I'm going to do a job part-time. But that part-time means I'm in school for Monday to Friday and I'm at work Saturday and Sunday. So by the time I come in on Monday, I'm exhausted. And I'm falling asleep in classes. And instead of someone going, are you okay? They go, she's not focused. She doesn't care. So we'll give her the smallest role and we'll just, we'll keep punishing for it. And it went on for so long. I was thought to be unfocused. And then when they thought I was focusing, we did like a musical. And I got the smallest role in the musical.

38:26And they knew I could sing. At this point, it wasn't like a... It wasn't... A mystery. A mystery. I could sing. That was what I did. And it gets to one of those performing nights. And then we find out in the daytime that two of the ladies are not very well. and so instead of saying okay you stay off go home or reassign the roles they were in and I was asked to sing for them and I can't even be mad at the question because I think I think you can that's mighty big of you but I think to this day I'm still frustrated at the I wish I had known to say no yeah right you know right but the but the lesson in saying yes and doing it is was that i would never do that again i would never allow my voice to be given to someone else to be given to someone else and used that way i i would be in full control of how my voice is used and and how and whom i use it with and when yeah that was a real lesson uh in sort of like self-confidence and and advocating for oneself and knowing when to say actually no.

39:43Because when I asked about that, it was, well, we didn't think that you needed help. You were really efficient. Yes. And I was like, well, I really hope that anyone who is efficient doesn't experience that. Because if they're good at what they do, they should be given the opportunity to be good at what they do. Well, this is the, for listeners, when you hear black folks talk about needing to be twice as good. These are the experiences that are not uncommon to people of color all over the world when someone has a preconceived notion of who we are based on difference. Your need to get through college, the way you had to do it to get through the program was different.

40:35Yes. Your needs were different. And this is why you have to have diverse faculty and administrators so that people can look. Like I recognize what this student is going through. And I won't see it as a way. Oh, you just want to be a backup singer. It's like, no, you're trying to eat. Yes. And if you don't have leadership that is diverse enough to be able to see themselves, then you wind up putting students and young people in a position to have to do twice as much to get through. And I want to take this moment because there are young people who will not assume, be people who loved you, who saw you, see you on Wicked, they see you as Elphaba, they see you as beautiful.

41:22And it's important to know. It was not easy. It was not easy because there are microaggressions And there are people who don't have full understanding of a broad set of experiences. And it makes it hard. Yes. For people who are other. Yeah. I think the wonderful thing about being able to write this book is that I get to share that this was not a walk in the park. Yes. That this was not easy. Right. That to get to this point today here, it has taken a lot. it's been a wonderfully crazy experiential journey of ups and downs and i you couldn't imagine i love the way you talk about how hard you work i mean and i think that that's a wonderful thing that you have laid out in your book because i you know we take we see the end product of all the work Yeah.

42:21So you make it to Broadway. You are in the color purple. You have blown it away. Yeah. But the one thing you said, and I don't know whether it was in the book or I heard it in another conversation that you had, but how difficult it is for you to have embodied the role of Seely. Yeah. someone for, how long were you on? It was 400 and, I want to say like 480 something performances. It was 14 months. 14 months. And for people to understand, Celie's character was battered and bruised and told over and over again, night after night. That she was ugly. That she was ugly. She was unworthy. And you don't realize, Yeah, in order to personify that role, you have to take it in.

43:20And that is a hard thing to do to the point where now even singing I Am Here. I just don't do it very often at all. Can you talk a bit about that work, what that feels like? Because we see the other end of it. We see the performance and we see your career. But I didn't even think about what it takes to... Because I think people see actors as like you just put something on. it's like a costume you put it on and then you do you say the words and that's it but that's really 1 % of what it is to really be able to and this is what I believe to really be able to and I never like it when other actors are like just act just you don't have none of you is in that in the role that's not true because you are literally the body of this person you your body has to take in the character it with whoever it is and then give it to to your watcher to your viewer and with Celie she she I really I love her and I speak of her like in present tense because all of these characters they they are to me they're like people they're like friends who I've met and some are a little like distant some are more present she is this sort of spark of light who is constantly put down beaten physically and mentally told she's ugly told she's not worth anything abandoned abandoned again abandoned again and I would do this night after night after night and so after a while your body doesn't know what that you're pretending and so your body just finds a sort of short circuits the way to get to wherever you need to get to and so after like performance 200, 210 or something, I hear the word ugly and that's, it's me.

45:17I hear it because the line between myself and the character, it's so thin that it's almost non-existent because that is the short circuit to the character. You have to be able to embody who they are and believe the things that are being said of you and really hear it so that the reaction is connected and real. And that goes for every single character. You sort of make a pact with yourself and the character that they are allowed to live in you for as long as they need to until the project is done. The problem is, after the project is done, how do you make space for yourself again? That can sometimes be really, really difficult.

46:08It takes time to sort of distill the character from yourself again and find out what your baseline is. Because you're still operating from the baseline of the character sometimes. Yeah, it takes a lot. And sometimes it's not just like a mental task. For me, it's very physical as well. Depending on how much work needs to happen, it takes training. It takes, I just did a film called Kuroshi and that was Samurai. And I was training every day for a month because that's all I had in order to get Samurai into my body. And Samurai has to be in your body, otherwise it doesn't read. and it is some of the hardest work I've ever done in my life just because it's a completely different way physicality that I haven't used before.

47:07And it's the same with flying as Elphaba. You have to get, your body has to get used to what it's like to be in a harness in the air when your weight is bearing down on a very thin piece of material, which is the harness, which is holding all of your weight. And you talk about the chafing, the physical burning of your skin as you were singing and flipping and flying at the same time. And no one thinks of that. They just think, oh, I'm so happy for you. And now I'm all... The amount of times people are like, oh, I want to fly. It looks so fun. And I'm like, it's fun now because I know how to do it.

47:45But at the very beginning, there is a moment when you're in the air where it is not fun at all, where everything hurts. But if you're in the middle of a scene and you need to get to the end of the scene or the middle of a song and you need to get to the end of the song, the pain has to go somewhere else and you have to sing the song. So yes, it's fun to be in the air. But after hour 10, it's not so funny. Yeah. Well, I want to go back to the color purple quickly here because I heard that you said that you wanted that part in the worst way. Yeah, I knew I was supposed to be doing it. How did you know you were supposed to be doing it?

48:26I don't know. I don't know. I knew it was coming. And just something said, you're supposed to do this. Okay. I was so sure. If you ask me what made me sure, to this day, I cannot tell you. I don't know. I just knew that it was meant to be the thing I was supposed to be doing. I did not know that it was going to Broadway. I did not know what was coming afterwards. I just knew there was a small little play, a musical coming to this tiny little theater that held only 200 people and I wanted to do it. It didn't matter what it was paying. It didn't matter where it was. I knew that this was the production I was supposed to be a part of and I was meant to be doing it.

49:10As clear as day. Someone said, would you play another character? No, I know it's supposed to be Celie. Yeah. And you talk about the feeling when you sing the I am here and feeling the audience's reaction. It's sort of going back to Silent Night, The Shepherd. Can you talk about that a bit? What it feels like to use your physical self and be able to move people in that way. It's a real out of body, but really organic feeling. It's like, it's kind of like flying, you know, everything sort of feels like it's connected. When you can feel the audience as it's happening, it's like the truest magic you could possibly imagine.

50:06I'm Here was one of those moments where you could feel the audience take a breath, like breathe with you. Because up until that point, you can feel the tension in the air. Because you want her to get to a place where she can say it. Where she can do that. And it takes so much, which is why I don't sing it very often. Because I don't think that the song is a party trick. I think it is the culmination of a journey that this character has had to be on to get to this point. And I feel like you can't truthfully. You talk about it, you have to earn it. Yeah. I don't feel that you can truthfully do that song unless you know the journey that the character has been.

50:43on. It's not I am here. Exactly. I'm here. And me, I'm here. That's right. And so when people use it just because they want to sing it, it always feels a little false to me because I'm sort of like, I don't know. Because you were Sealy. And it's like, you didn't live my life. Right. Now, did you feel this? I know. I don't care. No, no, no. Go ahead. Did you feel the same way about Elphaba as you did about Sealy? That you knew that this was for me? I think I was so frightened of admitting it because I knew so many people were going up for it. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that I got this woman.

51:20I understood this woman. I knew that woman. If there wasn't going to be anyone else, you know, there was no other character that I wanted to play in this piece. And it would have been, it was this. It was Elphaba. Can you help us understand the feeling you had when they called you up and said, Cynthia, you got the job. I don't even think I had any words. I think I just cried and said, thank you so much. And that was, I was just sobbing into my arms. I just, because I think what I had realized maybe at that point is that, is that actually to get to Elphaba was a really long journey. I had been learning her.

51:56I'd been learning, unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize it was happening, but I had been learning this character for a really long time. I knew the songs back to front before I had seen the show. So I knew the songs, I connected with the songs. I understood those songs. And then I went to see the show and thought, oh my gosh, I really, there's something. And then I've been asked to do concerts of this. It just kept coming up. It kept coming to me. And then to be asked to come in an audition was, I knew I wasn't going to leave anything unsaid or anything in the tank. And so I let it all go when I was in that audition room.

52:41So to get that call was, I really do think it, well, it did. It changed my life, truly. And I'll never forget the feeling of sort of amazement and speechlessness that happened that day. So I just, I was so grateful. And I think there was like a measure of disbelief that something like this had happened and could happen. And it's like a dream, a real dream role was in my life. And just a dream experience because it's ending so well. I mean, you can put all that work into any piece of art and it's not received in the way. You would have done this no matter what. I think I heard you say that in an interview.

53:32You would have put just as much energy into the role. but to have it be so well received by the public, people of all ages. What do you think it is about Wicked, about the particular adaptation of it, your performance, Ariana's performance that has resonated? I think it's the humanity in it. I think as much as it's this sort of fantastical, magical world, that it's deeply rooted in humanity. Each of these characters has a humanness to them. They all have a want. They all have a hurt, a pain, and especially Elphaba, and it's so openly on show. She's so very vulnerable that I think people connect to that.

54:26They connect to this otherness that she feels, this oddity. Starting at birth. from the beginning. And I think to be able to watch it play out in front of you sort of validates anyone who feels that way. That you're not, this is not something you're imagining. It actually is true. And look at it, watch it happening to someone else. Watch it happening to someone and that someone happens to have my face. And I think that adds to the idea that, oh, well, if she is the one behind the face of this character, then it opens the doors to the experience of the person who's playing it as well and i think the connection to the people and the characters and what everyone else's experience is has i think really um exploded this out and open for people the stories i've had the connections the people who've told me what they've been through how this can you know how this has moved them i i would i could be here till the end of the year if I was to tell you all of the stories and it's really really amazing so what are you most excited about for the next installment now the thing I'm most excited about for the next installment is um the the growth they're not in school anymore um They're really grown.

55:56And I've seen it. And I'm really proud of the progression. These are grown women. And I think I can't wait for people to experience Elphaba as someone who's really in her power and having to deal with the decision that she's made. And she does. It's not easy for her, but I think there's something quite wonderful about the way she moves through the space now. she's not apologetic at all it's kind of wonderful yeah one thing I was anything changed for the movie a couple of things yeah but maybe not changed maybe expanded we just opened up a little bit more like the love story between Fiero and Elphaba that's sort of been expanded so you can see it more you can understand it more it doesn't just sort of happen in one song because you don't have the time on a stage to do all of that you get to learn a bit more about where because in the show Elphaba just sort of goes away for a large majority of the second act and in this you sort of see where she's been and you're with her for a little bit and then she sort of like goes away and I think there's something really lovely about being able to see what world she's created for herself so that's a little bit different it's just the expansion of what we know I'm very excited and let me just tell you I have a family who are musical cynics You know I have some Who are like Oh When do you break out in song Everybody to a T Balling Crying You know Connected In this way So I mean kudos And I have an answer for you on that Because I've heard that answer I've heard that question before When do people break out in song All the time I know People break out in song All the time I am a musical girl People start singing or humming Yes All the time If you really pay attention You'll realize that people do it Every day And we all have a soundtrack To our lives Exactly I know I do.

57:52I do everything to music. You put those headphones on. And it's like, it gets me ready. I see myself. It's like, I'm here. That's what it is. And I think people get so, for some reason, there's this interesting disconnect when you go to a theater. And it actually happens. Why are you singing out in public? Because we always do. We actually always do. And we have a connection to music. And music is, and more so, a musical is is where you can go to really heighten one sense of emotion music happens when there's nothing else when you can't say anything else when you can't say anything else and often the song that gets sung is the thing that the person doesn't want anyone to see so it's the innermost thoughts of whoever is performing oh I love the way you explain that so take that musical Yeah, cynics.

58:50There's a place for it. It's very important. Go and see more of it. I think my sister is shooting a shot across my bow. No, no, there have been others. There have been others. Before you leave this table and we move on to other things, I just want to tell you how proud I am of how you are showing up in the world as your true authentic self. Thank you very much. Which is, I know, a part of that peaking that you had to. And I would love to have you just talk a bit before we go about how you've managed seeing all of yourself. Yeah. Because I know that there are young people out here who are looking and listening.

59:39And, you know, I just want you to talk a bit about that journey. The beginning of a journey of trying to be yourself, it takes, it's like trial and error. You know, you really have to be okay with making mistakes and discovering and not quite being comfortable with something and acknowledging when it's not quite comfortable and changing and shifting and being able to distill all the noise that other people tell you about who and what and how you're supposed to be to find out what you need for yourself. And as I've been doing that slowly I've sort of been finding little pieces it's like you know treasure hunting finding the things that make sense to me oh that's actually that's what I want to do even like someone like nails there's something I've been doing since I was 16 years old and I and I wanted to check myself like am I just saying that no and I went back to a picture of me when I'm 16 and I have nails and they are not as long but they definitely are next I've been doing my nails they're done yeah they're done um and I realized that that's just something that makes me feel like I'm done if I don't have a lick of makeup on but I have my nails done I feel like I'm done so that's just something that's like a I don't know it's not it's a part of who I am it's something that tells a story it's another canvas for someone else to to create but it's also a way to express stories um and it's the same with it my there I shaved my head but I've been making my getting my hair shorter and shorter and shorter at this point since I was 23.

1:01:16And I knew it was because I just wanted people to see my face. I had this obsession with being able to just show up. Nothing hiding anything. Just everything on show. And it got progressively shorter and shorter and shorter. And when I got to Wicked, my scalp needed to be green. Someone said, well, I thought that was sort of CGI. No, my actual scalp underneath the wig is green. And the only way I could do that is if I shaved my head. So I shaved my head and that green is on my scalp. But when I took the wig off and the makeup off, I really liked what I saw. Yeah, there you go. So I just stuck with it.

1:01:57And at first I would have someone else help me shave it. And then I was just like, just teach me how to do it. I'll do it myself. So I shaved my head myself. Welcome to the club. Thank you. And so all it is, is this sort of culmination of all the things that have been who I am for a really long time. and people have started to sort of accept they're not changing. They just are what they are and they're a part of her. And I've just wholly accepted all of those things and who I am because I think they make me who I am. I'm comfortable as that person, you know? So I was saying to my makeup artist, Joanna, today, I think sometimes people look at me and think I've put, like I might be, there was a moment where I think people thought I was putting it on as costume.

1:02:39But now I think people are realizing, oh, it's not costume, It's just how she is every single day. When you meet me in the street and I've got no makeup on, I'm still the same. I still have blows of piercing. I still have my nails done. It's not, you're not meeting another person completely. It's just, that's how I exist. And I've gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me. So when you meet me on a red carpet, or you meet me in the street, they're not two different people. It's one person. It's that part. Who just happens to be wearing different clothes. And isn't it easier to keep up with?

1:03:06Oh my gosh. You know, it's like, isn't it easier to be able to show up as yourself every single place. You don't have to remember the person you told them you were. You were. It's so lovely. It is the key to authenticity when people say you're so authentic. And it's like, no, I'm absolutely, this is exactly who I am. And we are ready for our question from our listener. Okay. Hi, Michelle and Craig. My question is about how to find balance. I have a busy job. I'm very close with my family. I work to keep a close group of friends, and I try to date when I can. But something I've been struggling with for a while is that I really want to have more of a creative life.

1:03:49I've always loved to paint and write, and I want to make those elements into something bigger in my life. But I find myself feeling like there are truly not enough hours in the day to stay on top of all of my obligations and also build a space for me to focus on my art. I'm now in my mid-30s and starting to panic that if I don't figure out a sustainable way to have a creative life, I'm going to lose this part of myself. How do you create that space for yourself to do what you really want to do day to day, especially when you're very busy or torn between a lot of different responsibilities? Courtney in Portland.

1:04:26Hello, Courtney. I have a couple thoughts about this. I feel that there sounds like and there's an organizational problem going on. So like scheduling. And it sounds like you're spreading yourself thin for everybody else and not really making any time for yourself. So I would maybe sometimes say, hey, I can't come to this thing that you want me to come to because I'm going to be working on something for myself. And I think it sounds like not wanting to let other people down or not wanting to say no to other people, which is really tough, but it's really great in the end. It will actually, I think it will help Courtney, you Courtney, if sometimes those family obligations and those friend obligations don't have you at them.

1:05:13Maybe sometimes you don't go to those things and that you take those times when you're not at those things to care for yourself and to pour into the thing that you love. Because if you're five years away from now, if you head away from this moment, five years away from it and you look back and you go, I didn't make any time for myself. What do I have to show for it? But everyone else seems to be really, really happy around me. You'll regret it. Whereas if you spend the time now on the things you love for yourself, you will actually be better for the people around you. You will actually be a better person, a more joyous person, a more satisfied person for the folks that you love.

1:06:01And they probably will enjoy that version of you more too. And it's a particularly good, important question in this day and age when time alone is almost like the enemy. Yeah. With social media and phones and video games. And, you know, the one thing I had growing up as a child that really encouraged my creativity was a lot of time alone. You know, when we grew up, you know, you had seven TV channels and, you know, kids TV ended at noon. Yes. And it didn't start until three. There weren't a lot of artificial distractions. The beauty of that is that it gives you time to be bored, to let your mind quiet, to have something to fill up.

1:07:07And that's where creativity happens. I mean, when I'm six and I pick up a spiral notebook to start writing my first story, a lot of that was because - I didn't have anything to do. I didn't have anything to do. And no one, my mother was not trying to fill my time. She was like, go play, go do your thing. You know, nothing is scheduled. You know, it's the summer you got all day. Yeah. And you've played enough. Your brother's sick of you. Your big brother doesn't want to play with you anymore. And you think there are things in my head. Yeah. I'm thinking, I'm daydreaming, I'm letting things happen for me.

1:07:43That's where creativity happens. And if we don't allow for that, because we are constantly filling up every second of our time, taking in a TikTok video or listening to someone else, forget even. Like if we got off of our phones and got comfortable with silence and aloneness, that is the space where creativity comes. So I would say to Courtney, I'd also ask her to think about the times when she's filling the time when she doesn't need to. That's right. And is she allowing herself spaces of quiet and aloneness? Yeah. So Courtney, I hope you're picking this up. It sounds like you have to do something that's a little counterintuitive.

1:08:32Yes. Be a little bit more selfish in order to be better for everyone else. Yes. And to Misha's point, be comfortable being by yourself. Let the create, give yourself time for the creativity to happen. Yeah. Well, this is, it's been a delight. Thank you. Thank you. Gosh, congratulations on everything. Thank you. So many things. Thank you. Simply more. Yeah. I'm so proud of it. I'm really very proud of it. I mean, your album, you should be. Thank you. You should absolutely. It's a beautiful book. Thank you. There is more in it. All of this is in it, but lots of wonderful lessons. We get to know you in a very powerful way.

1:09:16Thank you. And it's going to help some folks. I hope so. This is the time, holidays, when you go see Wicked for Good, pick up Simply More and give it to somebody that you love as a gift and come back and see us. I will. I will. You're busy, but we'll be watching and cheering you on. This will be one of my stops. I'll always come back. This is your IMO home. I'm coming. I'll be back, I promise. And I don't break my promises. Yeah. Thank you for this. Love you much. Love you too.

1:09:50Thanks again to our friends at Progressive Insurance for sponsoring this episode. For more information, visit progressive.com slash open the house.