“Our Hair is a Portal into our Souls” with Tracee Ellis Ross

0:00The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and Intuit. Oh, we're going to have a ball. Hi. Hello, everybody. Oh, hello, hello, hello. Well, so I'm Trace Ellis Ross.

0:19I first met Mrs. Obama through a handwritten note that she wrote me thanking me for joining them on the campaign trail. and that was in 2007. And then the first time that I met her in person was in 2011 at the White House for one of her mentoring events. And now we are friends. Like real friends, I'm not bragging, but I am. And it's totally true. Michelle, that's my friend. So I think we should bring her out. But, but, but I think what we should do first, let me put this over here. I think first of all, you guys all turn your lights on the inner lights. Turn your inner lights on, inner soul light, and then also turn your flashlights on on your phone.

1:04Is mine on already? No. Hold on. Okay, let's make, yes! Magic! Look at this. Okay, I'm not going to turn mine on it because it'll be in somebody's face. All right. I think we're ready. So, are we ready?

1:21Introducing our forever first lady, Michelle Obama.

1:32Guys, she's here! Hey!

1:38Oh my goodness. That is magic. I am not going to lie. Hey everyone, I'm Michelle Obama, and welcome to a special bonus episode of The Light Podcast. It can be tough getting comfortable with who you are and what makes you happy, and that's true even if you're not First Lady. We all try to live up to other people's expectations instead of our own. We hesitate to make a statement with our hair or our clothes because we're not sure the world will get it. We see society's definition of success and worry that ours looks different. We wonder if we're enough. Over the years, I've spent a lot of time talking about all of this with my good friend Tracy Ellis Ross.

2:28As you will hear in this episode, Tracy is a barely contained ball of energy, but she's also incredibly thoughtful, self-aware, smart, and just plain funny. Whenever we're together, we talk about everything. But most importantly, we just love laughing together. Tracy's always had my back and I've had hers. She's helped me out in so many ways, from mentoring young folks to encouraging more people to register to vote. Tracy and I have similar views of the world and our place in it, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. All right, I've got to tell the story about my friend who I gave my book to this summer.

3:18there was copies because i wanted my friend to read so you came to visit me and i was like did you read the book and she's like yeah i'm like i texted you i was like did you finish it i'm like yes i'm like yeah yeah no feedback no i'm like oh no i knew we were doing this hates it no it's terrible i got no feedback so backstage i'm like can we finally talk she's like yeah i like it i like it. See, this is what I'm saying. You guys think that I'm all confident and all this. And I'm like, Tracy hates the book. She didn't give me any feedback. And you know what's crazy is I totally, I really identify with that.

3:58And you know what? I'm sorry I didn't catch that. I also, I'm a really slow reader. I am. And I don't know about you guys, but I love listening. This is what I did on the last book as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. See, but you gave me no feedback. All right, let me just wait. Hold on. We got wow pages. These are my favorite. The ones that say wow, wow, wow. Stars, stars, stars. Wow, wow, wow. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah, stars, stars, stars. Wow, wow, wow. And you gave me nothing. I gave her nothing. I'm a bad friend, guys. The value of taking up. Wow, wow, wow. Hold on. There's another marker. Oh, look at this.

4:34Yes, true, yes. Look at this. Yes, true, yes. Okay. So you guys are in for a treat because this is literally the first time we've talked together about this book. So right here, right now. So I'm as excited about this conversation as you are. So hold on. Also, we have to temper the friendship and remember we're in public. Okay. All right. All right. So my first question is, how are you today? What did you have for breakfast? And can we talk about the braids? Oh, yeah. I am good. I'm great. What did I have for breakfast? I didn't eat breakfast. I ate lunch. I had salad and a short rib quesadilla.

5:17That sounds delicious. It was so good. That sounds delicious. And the braids. And the braids. Freedom! That's why I want to talk about the braids. You know that I can have hair conversations forever. Thank you. So I feel like the hair conversation is actually a really important one. I obviously have a hair company. And the reason that I dove into that, and it's such an important area, is as black women, I feel like our hair is a portal into our souls. And there's so much that you could tell about her humanity through how we have to navigate the experience with our hair, both personally and internally, and then how that matches up with the world outside.

5:59And so I've heard you say that you would have never worn your hair in braids while you were in the White House. Yeah, no, I am. You know, I considered it. But, you know, for those of you who remember, everything we did as the first was uber scrutinized. And it was expected because that's what happens when you're the first. And there are many of us who have been the first at tables and the first at schools and the first on campuses, not just around race, but there is a whole lot of differentness. And when you're the first, there's this feeling of everybody else that they have to understand everything you do.

6:40Like they wouldn't understand my braids, which is a trip that anybody would have to understand anybody's hair. None of your business, really. But that was that sort of the burden of the first. But I kind of just blocked it out and just did my thing. But because of that, I knew that hair would create a statement that would get in the way of the work. And I sadly still had to prove myself to the nation that, you know, I was competent and smart. And I didn't want hair to be the part of that conversation. But here's the thing about progress. And I want to give a big up to this generation of young women and young people who have literally changed the conversation.

7:27so many of you so proud of you for embracing everything about your hair not just black hair but color and cut we have changed the conversation and because of that you all have paved the way for me to break my doggone hair to do whatever i want about it with it and as women and let me just give men a tip because my husband my husband now understands this no man should have a comment suggestion input opinion and by the way and by the way if we ask we really only want like 10 percent of your idea exactly you have no idea what we go through and sadly societally sometimes you're not interested. You don't study our bodies.

8:21There's no research on us. So do not talk about our hair. Do not try to control our wombs. Stay out of it. Please.

8:37Some of you will know exactly what I mean when I say this. A black woman's hair is not something everyone understands, nor should they. That includes a professional hairstylist. That's why Yanae is so important to me. She's an extraordinary hairstylist, an entrepreneur, and just a lovely human being. I just love her, and I'm proud to call her a friend. Here she is. I started working with Michelle in 2009 by way of Johnny Wright, who was her primary hairstylist, and I was responsible to assist him take care of Sasha, Malia, and Mrs. Robinson. And over the years, I filled in for him, and then eventually I took over as her primary hairstylist.

9:26The first moment was when we started wearing her hair in a more natural state, and that transition and I think again it happened when she decided to wear braids when you are so used to having the same silhouette and it's changing change is sometimes uncomfortable and so it was like how can we still make this look acceptable and not acceptable like within a negative connotation but like there will not be backlash a lot of what I saw when she was the first lady was every part of her being picked apart it was like what she wore what she did like what she said everything got picked apart. So for me, as a Black woman in America, I just know how sensitive hair is.

10:10And so it was, how do we showcase her hair in a natural state that is still quote unquote polished or that is palatable or that will be accepted? And I remember just watching so many people on the internet just going crazy about her showing up in that light. Like it was a moment And it was a moment because so many people of color, Black girls, don't see themselves. And when you think about hair tolerance in the workplace, it didn't exist. And so it was just like, stand under the radar, keep your hair straight, keep the same silhouette, things of that nature. And so when we deviated from that, it was extremely important for us to do it in a way that made sense.

10:56We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Tracy.

11:08research says that if you have strong social ties you are likely to live longer and with less stress yeah um so we you know i i want to make that point because if i i can make friends as first lady of the united states living in a bubble you know everybody can right yeah but there is a risk with big that's the fear part right you because you have to extend yourself to somebody that you don't know and maybe there's rejection maybe they don't want to be your friend um i'm gonna tell the friend story for us yeah so i i met first i met you through campaigning yep then you brought me into the white house and then i came to the white house numerous times doing different um mentoring events and sort of being of service and then as the time and then i was invited to a birthday party, I think.

11:59And then I came to another birthday. Anyway. But that's where, those are social events, right? Those are social. So then I took a leap because the presidency was coming to an end, the second term. And I was like, I'm just going to ask if we can go to dinner. Yeah. And I just asked. So, yeah. But I mean, and I was like, I mean, I'm already vetted, right? That's right. I've been to the White House. I know I'm going to make it through that part. And she didn't act crazy. Yeah, I was like, you know, and, you know, your staff around you would know, like, she's a crazy one. She's not a crazy one. Oh, no, we would get the reports on who was acting up in the China room waiting to get out.

12:38We would hear it all. Who was rude to the staff? Who was nice to you? Who got drug out drunk a couple of times? Oh, yeah, no, we were like, really? Ooh. Tracy was on the nice list. I also would always come alone. That's right. I would come alone, so I would reach out to them and be like. You weren't calling and going, well, can me, my mother, my grandmother, and my 12 friends from high school. That's right. And so we took a risk. I took a risk. And then I joined first a group with dinner. And then it took time. And, you know, same thing with me. Like, I don't know. You don't know. I know her from over here.

13:11I know her from over there. And the benefit of leaning into the discomfort of not knowing somebody. You know? And I think the other thing is I've learned how to be a friend from being a friend. Yes. And from practicing. and one of the things I noticed that you talk about in the book that I love is that not one friend is supposed to answer all of your needs not one relationship not one friend and learning how to do that and to know that you've got one friend you work out with all the time it's done you the other stuff that's right I am Michelle Obama's wardrobe stylist this is Meredith Koop She's been a close friend and a critical part of my life since becoming First Lady.

13:55From formal state dinners to policy roundtables to hula hooping on the South Lawn, Meredith always helps me dress in a way that's both appropriate to the setting and helps me feel good. Here she's talking about her process. So when she was in the White House, she had a role. She had a role as first lady, and I always thought of that before anything else. This is a role, and this role requires a certain costume. I didn't think of the role as just any generic first lady, but first lady Michelle Obama from Chicago. What is she wearing in her role as first lady? There is a certain sort of level of respect that people want or pull for in that role.

14:50So even in the beginning, you saw a situation where she went to a State of the Union in a dress without sleeves. And you would have thought that she showed up fully unclothed. The way people reacted to that. So it was quite interesting to see how people reacted to her. There was certainly a lot of energy and intensity around her as a person and also what she wore. At the same time, there were a lot of people that were clearly very inspired and uplifted by what she wore and the designers that she wore and how wearing different American designers reflected this tapestry of people in this country and how they expressed their creativity and art and her showcasing that on a day to day basis.

15:52Leaving the White House, my goal with my vision for her has been how can we more and more reflect her authentic self, what she's authentically drawn to, and how can I take that and elevate that? We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Tracy.

16:19As you know, I'm on a bit of a mission to make sure that the world knows that women's worth and happiness is not based on being chosen by a man or having children. And it's something, you know, we talk a lot about. So, yeah, let's talk about that. Because you're a woman who has a partner and has children. but I've talked to your girls about this idea and let's just dive in on that one. What are your thoughts on the worth of women and where we find it? What I am trying to teach my girls is that I want them to work more on being whole complete individuals rather than being married and mothers. I just want to I want to work to broaden the dynamic and I happen to have two daughters so I'm working on that marriage thing but I think this is true for our sons we so limit the possibilities of what a happy human life can look like you know it's too narrow and that's why so many people are struggling because they're trying to fit into this little bitty box that most of us will never fit into um and it might not even match what we want or maybe it's not there for you i mean love it that's not always in your control if you don't want to just marry anybody if you don't want to fall in love with anybody you know finding that person and then making it work.

18:03What if it doesn't happen? What if it doesn't happen? I do not want my kids to say to daughters to think, well, I can't be happy because I didn't find that person. That's when people just start picking somebody. They just pick a thing. And by the way, there's a lot of really wonderful other ways. If mothering is something you want to do, there's other ways to mother. You can either actually have a child, you can adopt a child, You can, there's all these different ways, or you can just mother. That's right. That's right. There's so many different ways. And I love that you're talking about it. I'm talking about it.

18:38People are talking about it more. I wish that we didn't, our society didn't teach young girls to dream about their wedding. Dream about your life. What do you want your life to be? That part. And I have spent the last 10 years of my life publicly talking about the fact that I'm the chooser. That's right. I get to choose my own life. That's right. Yes. And we get very confused around this narrative. And then we wrap it up in all these other different little bows and make people think. But the bottom line is, who do you want to be? What do you want from your life? What do you want to give? What do you want to share?

19:11What do you want to get? What do you want it to feel like? And then that person might or might not enter. That's right. Whether it's a man or a woman or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. That person might. It might be a dog, for God's sakes. And dogs are good companions. Ladybug was one of the loves of my life, okay? ladybug was very special but um but we get very confused about that and i do think it's important particularly it's one thing coming from me but it's another coming from a person who's happily married yes and who talks about the reality of what partnership is the real fantasy the reality and of being a mother and then what that looks like and if you as the former first lady our forever first lady is inhabiting that conversation which with such truth sharing the way you talk about it to your girls, but also it's for young boys too.

19:59It's for all of us to go, okay, what kind of life are we trying to build? I think about the challenges that our boys face. Because when you think of what do we think counts, right, for the kind of life a male can have, right? First of all, you better be a leader. You know, that's always rewarding. You better win. you better be a winning leader making money who's strong who's strong who's tall you know they do all that but they say all this stuff is garbage you slowly narrow it down to you know i have met so many happy people who work with their hands who build things who don't they're men who are not natural leaders you know and it's okay and they are happy people and if they're not it's because somebody told them you don't deserve to be happy.

20:53And what happens when we have that narrow definition of what it is to be a man and a leader, we get some of what we just got. We get took. Yeah, we, yeah, you know, and we shortchange our kids and their happiness and who they can be, because if they're, if they're not fundamentally, if we don't see who they are, we don't give them space to show us who they are. And let me tell you, if you parent it, kids show you so early who they are, if you're paying attention to them. And if you're not trying to supplant your shortcomings and your wishes, and you're not having kids to have a mini me, you know, if you're raising somebody to be a full individual, then you give them the space to show you who they are.

21:38And we can't be disappointed with their choice because they'll feel that lack of gladness that, oh, oh you're a table maker you know and it's like I know some happy table makers do do amazing work who are happier than the the the most wealthy businessmen out here who are playing some role of leading and they are dead inside because it's not who they really want to be but they can play that game. You know, we do that to our girls. We do that to our boys. We have to parent. I think we have to parent more broadly and give our kids more options of what it means to be human so that they find a place for themselves.

22:23That's why so many people feel unseen. And we can't base that on just race. If you are not living your truth because you're fitting into some definition, you are unhappy and you feel unseen and then you riot in the Capitol. Because there is something wrong and you don't know what it is. And you think someone's taking something from you that's not yours. Something from you, but it's the structure, the limited structure of what it means to have a life. And too many young people are chasing, as somebody who is making money, right? I get it. I know it. You know, I don't want to act like I'm talking.

23:02but I don't want kids, I don't want my kids to just chase money. I want them to figure out what their purpose is because that's really, forget all the nice clothes and the rings and the this and the that. I know some unhappy billionaires and I know Marianne Robinson who lives in a little apartment who has been one of the happiest people I have ever known in my life and she doesn't need a thing. That is not where happiness comes from, you know, and our kids are chasing a thing. And then we wonder why they're anxious and they're upset because they're trying to be this billionaire business person, this one little narrow thing to make all this money, to make people happy, to be able to respond to a title that society says, oh, good, you want to be a lawyer.

23:57That's what happened to me. I picked law because people were like, oh, wow, a lawyer. I was like, I don't even know what a lawyer is, but I guess I'm going to do that thing. If I were a lawyer right now, I would be one of the most unhappy people on the planet and I wouldn't even be serving my rightful purpose. So what I'm trying to do with my kids is just broaden the possibility to get out of their heads, to make sure that I'm not supplanting my shortcomings and my silly loops. I'm not replacing their wants for mine. And that, as a parent, is a hard thing to do. Trust me. And I'm not doing it right all the time.

24:40But it should be the thing we're thinking about. We should be thinking about the messages we're sending to our kids that lock them in unhappiness, that lock them into marriages that they look if you want to be married and if you want to be a parent it is nothing but hard thankless work just let me just so you can't clear it is the hardest thing that you will ever do and there will be long periods of time of deep frustration and unhappiness I'm sorry that's what it is so you should want to do it you should want it badly you should want it more than you want to wear a wedding dress girl just buy the dress and wear it around your house you know that's hilarious that's amazing you know what's so interesting though is everything you just said I could replace as a 50-year-old single woman who has the life that I want, it is hard and it is great.

25:51It is lonely and it is great. It is filled with grief and it is great. Like, it's just life. No matter which one you choose, so you want the one you want. So how do I overcome in uncertain times? All times are uncertain. Let's get comfortable with the uncertainty and then do the work to develop the tools that we will need to get through the uncertainty. And guess where that work starts? Right here, right here. We can't find it from the outside. Our light is here. It starts here. You build it, you protect it, and you share it as much as possible with other people, which means you have to show empathy.

26:37You have to realize that people are hurt. They feel, all of us feel invisible, that if somebody is acting out, whether it's a black child on the South Side or a white man on Wall Street, there is some hurt that is happening. And we should be thinking as a society about how do we structure things so that more people are seen, more people feel supported, more people feel invested in. It would be the best investment we could ever make to just build a bigger, you know, story of who matters on this earth. Our time together has come to an end. This was a good one, y 'all. This is amazing. I would like to say thank you, Mrs.

27:29Obama.