Put in the Work with Spike Lee

28:20You're right. because you wrote with some Mama Luke's. Okay, Mama Luke's. Let's explain that for the people. It's Italian American. My family was the first family to move into Cobble Hill because I was born in Atlanta. When we moved in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn, it was stone. We were the first black family. And so I began to think about Deuteronomy and Jungle Fever came from being a child. and a predominantly Italian-American neighbor. So, Mama Luke. Mama Luke. It's not... You don't want to be a Mama Luke. So, when you trust someone, you know they have your best, one of the best for you. So, they're not going to tell you some crazy stuff.

29:13Now, somebody's opinion you don't respect, you're not going to listen to them. because you don't know where that's coming from. Right, right. And we all know in this room. In the room. In the world, you're taking some advice or something and then say,

29:36But when you're surrounded by people who want you to be the best you can be, you can trust them. And we've all seen teams, guys that get along and it comes on the court. Now, I was at game seven. May 1970. Which game is this? Fill me in. The Knicks first world championship. Okay. It's like, which game is this? I'm sorry, fellas. I'm talking about a team. Coach, Red Holtzman. Yes. Starting five. Okay. Willis Reed. Dave DeBusha. All right. Bill Bradley. Dick Barnett recently passed away. This was before I even knew basketball existed, but thank you. That's the team. Off the bench, Cassie Russell.

30:29Yeah. Dave Stolz. Mike Reardon. I was at that game. Okay. My father's lawyer had season tickets, and he promised me if there was a game seven, you can go. And it's the Willis Reed game. Willis Reed, game five, got hurt. He didn't play game six. And I've been to Super Bowls, World Cups, World Series. I've never heard a noise, crowd noise. It was loud when Willis, when he dragged his leg out, that noise. The teams, both teams were doing their layup line. The entire Laker team froze. turned around. So Willis Reed dragged his leg. What happened to his leg? Well, he had hurt his leg in game five and didn't come out to warm up with the rest of the team.

31:25So the Lakers were thinking, okay, great. Willis Reed's not playing game seven. We're in good shape. But he came out late. Okay. And I can't even imagine the sound of the crowd. The garden is. Yeah. I mean, you know, when it's packed. We're talking about three of the all-time greatest Willis Reed. So this is one of your famous sports analogies that gets us back to team. See what I have to deal with here? This is what I have to deal with. Sports is in every... I know that's what you think, Spike and Craig. Sports is in Mahatma Ali, Jackie Robinson. We go on and on. But then you got to know the game.

32:03It's like, nah, it took me five minutes to figure out, well, what happened to his leg? I want to say to the listeners, please forgive me because I have something called, I don't have dyslexia. I have something else. What is that? The slip here. Should be slipping.

32:26You've been setting that up. That was a good one. I knew that was. It's also called broken knees too. Dyslip here. Dyslip here. I'm generally good. I can keep us on course, you know. But the zero. I'm turning my best way. I had some sleep last night. I mean, shoot. But let's talk about highest to lowest. Yes, please. When I was in film school, NYU graded film school, I was introduced to Japanese cinema. The giant of Japanese cinema. Our producer, Dan, is losing his mind that you even brought this up. He's a cinephile nerdy. He's a cinephile. And Spike Lee. And we were just talking about, well, you do know that this was a...

33:15Kurosawa. Kurosawa. And I'm like, no, I did not. So he's so happy. Please continue. In film school, NYU, in graduate film school, you introduced a lot of international cinema. And Rashomon really made an effect on me. in this film there's a murder and a rape and characters each speak on it in fact that's where the term comes where different people see the same thing so that was a kernel for She's Gotta Have It where Noah's three boyfriend and her address speak to the camera and say what their stories are left to the audience. Yeah. To feel what happens. Who do you want to believe? Yeah. And this film is not a remake.

34:14It's a reinterpretation of the great film by the great Japanese filmmaker, Kirikosawa, High and Low. So we flipped this so it's, our title is called Highest to Lowest. But as a nod to Prince, we used the number two instead of what's going on. Nice. I didn't know that when I was watching it. Okay. And I'm blessed to have work with my brother, Denzel Wash. Yeah, yeah. He gives a performance. We are blessed that you're working with your brother, Denzel.

34:57You know, as some of our listeners may have seen, my brother-in-law, your husband, joined us on the show a few weeks back and had an interesting opinion that ketchup is just for kids. But here at IMO, our opinion is that ketchup is for everyone. And honestly, it has to be Heinz. Mish, I would say that IMO is a pro-ketchup podcast. Without a doubt. We believe in ketchup here at IMO and in life in general. But despite what my husband said, ketchup exists in our household everywhere. Yeah. What are some of the ways you guys use ketchup? Well, there's the basic potato, french fry, ketchup dip thing.

35:47I mean, it's always there. the girls, you know, before they eat can even start their meal. The question is always, where's the ketchup? Yeah. Especially with fries because it's a rare fry that you can get away with just salt and pepper. Yeah. And having a little bit of that tomato-y, rich flavor. Vine ripen. You know? And, you know, it gives it a little substance, you know? It's not dripping down your fry. And then barbecues. Yes. I was going to say grilling. you have to have ketchup for your burger. And I'm not even offended if I'm grilling and people put ketchup on their burger. You can dip it or you can have it on there.

36:27I'm not offended. I'm not offended. And I'm from Chicago. I'm not offended if you put it on your hot dog. You know, and that's a question. Are you a pour or are you a dipper? Because people have a certain opinion about ketchup. Some people want one application. Other people want a bite, a dip, a dip, a bite. Like, do you have a preference? My preference, it depends on what I'm eating. So if I'm eating a hamburger, I like to dip my hamburger into the ketchup. Got it. I love, because I want a bite of ketchup with my hamburger. But if I have a brat or a Polish, or I want to have it along the length of the brat.

37:08I can picture that. Oh, and that just reminds me, even though my kids aren't young, as a mother of little kids, ketchup was an important source of vegetable intake, especially when it came to broccoli. I mean, you know, look, you want your kids to get their vegetables in. And let me tell you, ketchup is an excellent vegetable delivery system. Absolutely. We got a lot of broccoli down just with a little Heinz ketchup dip. Made the girls happy. I was happy. Kids were happy. Veggies were eaten. Life goes on. And at the end of the day, it has to be Heinz.

37:58And it's kind of sad because this might be the last film that we're doing. and he's talked about retiring. Every time I read an article, he's retiring, he's doing another movie. So who knows? So I said today, I'm going to say, I'm going to stop saying that this is my last film with Denzel. I thought I said, I got to stop saying that. Yeah, you don't know. Because if you keep saying that, it's going to make that happen. Yeah, that's right. And Denzel, he said, oh, that'll spike it. I said it was, but you think it's so, so Denzel, I'm going to stop saying that. Okay. In order. Mo' Better Blues. Yeah.

38:37Malcolm X. He Got Game. Inside Man. And here's the crazy thing. Both Dental and I did not know 18 years had gone past between Inside Man and I was lost. We both. Just, time just went. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought that either. We didn't know. We were shot. We had like 18 years? But because inside, man feels fresh. I mean, it's a standout. I mean, it's on the top of everyone's favorite Spike movies. So it feels like it just happened. And you haven't aged, not a second. Mine right. Except for your slipology or whatever it is. I might need a movie operator. But it has been, all jokes aside, it's been a gift to work with Denzel.

39:41And added plus, he has season tickets for the Lakers. You are so silly. So when this special comes out, I look over the Knicks. I got this right. And then the way it is now, a lot of times, what they're doing now is like, the stop teams doing travel. The Knicks are playing the Clippers like, back to back. So I know the owner. Well, it sounds like you made the movie schedule around the basketball schedule spike, and I wouldn't be surprised. Let me tell you this. when we were rolling with we had a game and the day the night we're shooting people normally go home at 5 o 'clock it's like early call time they know if we're shooting on a game day you are crazy you are crazy What's it like to direct Denzel?

40:50What makes that partnership special to you? He knows what he's doing. He knows what he wants. He doesn't need 20 takes. Yeah. Wow. But also, he listens to notes. He's not too big for that. When you're great, I'm not going to tell Denzel. well can you move a little I mean look if there's a note I tell him but I'm not in this area like blah blah blah let's do his thing now actors aren't that level and I'm not doing what I want to do that's a different story and Denzel people don't understand his improvisation is so great you think that stuff is written and it's not it's like right there and it's the perfect thing you needed but it's not in the script and when he gets actor on his level and they start going back on improv.

42:16It was ASAP Rocky also. ASAP. I keep telling people. His performance. Don't sleep on ASAP. No, no. He showed up. ASAP and Denzel. That's like a heavyweight fight. He's not a heavyweight lightweight. Toe to toe. Yeah.

42:39He's been in several films. He's been in several films. So this is not his first film. He was fun to work with. Here's the thing. Denzel is such a powerful actor. I've seen actors like, Wilt. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot to work against. I mean, you've seen his work. You've seen him. You know what he is. Then you're like, I'm going to see when Denzel was like, yeah, it's like being at practice with Jordan. Come on now. You know what I'm saying? Oh, Lord, here we go. More basketball. This is not Sports Talk Radio, man. Like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Vinny from Brooklyn. What's one of the Yankees now?

43:23Yeah, they stink. What else is new? Hey, we got 27 rings, so don't start. Okay, back to ASAP. Oh, my God. You two are exhausting. I was just getting into hearing about ASAP

43:49ASAP he was like something else he was like I got testicles too yeah yeah oh that scene with him in the recording studio I know don't want to give it away for the listeners you know what's great about that Denzel wants because if he's in a scene and he's killing the other person like that's killing the scene so he wants and then here's the thing even before I was asked through this film people have always said A$AP looks like Denzel's son have you ever I've heard that I've heard people say that now I have to look for it because I didn't notice it when we were watching the film people say that to me for years and so that adds another layer thank you for that word another layer because then on a subconscious level this is a father son thing it's a father son so you add a layer upon layer that just makes that lists the whole Yeah.

45:07Film out. Now, in addition to Denzel, I mean, you have given so many black actors and so many actors, period, because of that team. Can't leave out Rosie. Can't leave out Rosie. Can't leave out Rosie. It's just been amazing how you've been so conscious about, you know, especially with Ozzy Davis, Ruby Dee. I mean, you kept a lot of really amazing actors in the zeitgeist, you know, so that generation. You just made me think of something. What's that? Harry Belafonte. My father played with Harry Belafonte. And every time he would see me spike, do you have to use Ozzy Areson? Can't Ozzy just let me get one?

46:00And Ozzy's, excuse me. and I heard Mr. Belafonte. You had to call him Mr. Belafonte. His last film was Black Klansman. You know, his health is not good. So I didn't know until that morning when we used to come to the set. So I had a backup. We had stashed away. Wow, really? I'm not sure who it was, but in the hotel. I told the cast, this day before, I said, You come to work, dress your Sunday best. Have you ever been on a film set? Like this set. We're bumming. Much like here. No, I'm just kidding. Anyway. When the car rolled up, everybody said, all right, he's coming. Everybody was out there.

46:58And when he got out of the car, people lost their minds. Wow, I can only imagine. That was a great grin. For years he was saying, Spike, you had that? And you've got it. Can Ozzy get arrested for it? Just give me a minute. And you did it. And we got him in for his last film. That's great. You did it. But your latest film, while there may not be a direct message, that last scene with Denzel and ASAP, there is a statement about the industry, the music industry, and sort of, you know, I don't want to give away a twist, but there's a cynicism about the way young people today use social media, how that affects the creative process.

47:57Can you speak a little bit about how you feel about sort of where things are, how filmmaking has changed, how the creative process is being impacted?

48:10The thing that scares me, AI with arts. Now, all right, AI for this and that, but when it comes to being writing scripts, TV shows, I'm not with that. because I don't think in my opinion you cannot duplicate human beings my opinion a machine writing

48:50I'm thinking AI music plays books it's call me old fashioned just for the audience yeah okay sorry my bad

49:10I just think that there's some things that are sacred as human beings that

49:21the arts I have a problem with that. How do you see it in the classroom? Because you're still, you're teaching. Yeah, but they don't have to write papers for that. Okay. But scripts? Yeah, I read their scripts. I can tell they're not. You can tell. Yeah, I can tell. Uh-huh. But, I don't have exams. Yeah, yeah, got it. But people, it's the students who are losing out. Mm-hmm. Because they're not. And we know, look, at this table, we all know and we learned this many many times because we didn't get to where we are if it wasn't that you have to put the work in W-E-R-K

50:10see just when I think I love this solo just when I think you know you gotta put the work in yeah you right you think you're getting over but you're cheating yourself. That's right. And as parents, we've told our children, no, you can't. There's another one. You can't fake the funk. Well, that one, yeah. So Spike, hold on. I'm sorry. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yes, my sister. Oh, yes. I like that. All right. Why you bogarting? Yeah. Why you violating? Ooh, ooh. It might as well be the same. It might as well be the same here as it is everywhere. Go ahead, your highness. Oh, now I forgot what I was going to ask.

50:59That's it, Scott. All right, what are you going to ask? I was just going to ask, what does it take now to get thoughtful, original, brave films made in Hollywood? Oh, okay, that was close to what I was going to ask. Oh, wow, what do you know? All right, so it worked out. It worked out for me anyway. It's getting harder and harder. Yeah, yeah. Because the powers that be, they're just looking at the bottom line. I know this personally. There are fewer and fewer people in those positions, the gatekeepers, that are willing to produce different types of material, more challenging type of material, and not what they think is a guaranteed thing.

51:59But in this, there's nothing that's guaranteed. And it's just tougher. I mean, I have some friends that are in the music industry. these labels are dropping people or firing people left and right. So I think there's something that's not just the industry of film but across the board. People are just... Everybody wants the same type. They want a category. They want a guarantee. But the audience is there. But they're not the audience. That's that's the frustrating thing. I mean, it's like, you know, you have conversations with some of the decision makers and they swear, swear that the audiences don't exist.

52:48You know that the numbers bear it out. But that if that can't be possible, you know, that some of the one could argue that some of the drop in box office is because there's just not enough variety. It's the same thing. Yeah, it's the same thing. I mean, if I don't like action, if I don't like Marvel, if that just doesn't happen to be my thing, what am I going to the movie for? And if you get out of the habit of going to the movie because you just assume there's nothing there for you. Or you're going to stream. Yeah, that's the pattern. But I want to see a little bit of everything. I want to see love stories.

53:30I want to see all kinds of faces. I want to see women leads. I want to see stories about coming of age. All of that. And that's why the present universal pictures, when I did Do the Right Thing, Tom Pollack, when we were talking about, oh, Hollywood doesn't take the chance they used to, Tom Pollack is a hero to me. he was everybody in Hollywood told him not to make do the right thing that black folks would come out of the theater rioting there was tremendous tremendous pressure on him he just did a film called Last Temptation of Christ that Martin Squaredes Facey directed he had death threats after that film he had to have armed guards with him and his family and on top of that comes do the right thing right yeah it was courageous for him to go ahead and make do the right thing at the last temptation of Christ where him and his family was a potential danger and we had to The world premiere, the world premiere, I think, was in Cannes.

55:03And right then, this was caused riots, I mean. But he stood behind the film. And I don't think there are too many people who are ahead of studios today. That would do that. That would do that. So I'm going to love to. Yeah, yeah. My brother Tom, because he, people within Universal, his boss, the industry, the press, they said this film would make black folks run amok. And he thought otherwise. Yeah. But those, very few of those people. Few and far between, yeah. Yeah. In an industry now like that. They exist. But the algorithm sometimes, it plays too big of a role. Well, speaking of helping folks and generational assistance, we have a thing here on IMO where we get a question from one of our listeners.

56:18And this happens to be from one of our listeners in D.C. Okay, right. Tori from D.C. has got a question for us.

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1:05:53Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Tori and I'm a 41-year-old paralegal in D.C. While I'm not able to have children, I've built a life focused on service, purpose, and growth. From 2019 to 2020, my husband and I fostered refugee children, which deeply shaped how I view my role in the world. I'm currently considering law school while also thinking about how to mentor and uplift others in the paralegal field. My questions are, how do you decide which path will allow you to have the greatest impact, especially when you're torn between multiple good ones? How do you cope with the feeling that you're not fully living up to your potential, even when you're doing meaningful work?

1:06:35I get another word. That's a humdinger. That's a humdinger. We've gotten. That's deep. That's a humdinger. It is. It's a humdinger. We've talked about this before in other conversations, but I don't know when you talk to your kids, because our kids are all in their late 20s, early 30s-ish. Seems like a lot of young people in that age group are struggling in that way. They're wondering, you know, should they be doing more? have they chosen the right path? I find myself having conversations with young people about having the patience to sit with where you are and find the meaning with what you're doing at the moment.

1:07:27All impact isn't big. All meaningful impact isn't big. Tori is fostering refugee kids. It sounds like there's a lot of stuff going on in Tori's life right now where she's having a lot of impact. Being a good neighbor, have an impact with the people who are right in your amidst the people you have responsibility for, that is big impact, you know? And that to me is enough. What's bigger than that? What is bigger than that? What is bigger than that? It feels like she's trying to figure out how to build a legacy. And I just, you know, I like what you're saying about being patient, but I think she needs some direction.

1:08:19And if I were to give her some direction, I would say to her, Try different things. The right idea will eventually come to you. But in the meantime, you're doing some wonderful things by fostering refugee kids. And maybe the how-to is how does, maybe Tori is trying to figure out how does she explore different paths? I mean, a lot of kids don't have networks, a lot of young people. You get into one profession and it's hard to figure out how to get to another or even explore. I know when I came out of law school, thought I wanted to be a lawyer, worked at a big firm, did all those things, only to find out after two years, my feeling was like, no, this ain't it.

1:09:07So how do I pivot? How did I figure out how to pivot? And it was something as simple as, you know, I had to think about who I might want to be. So there's some work that Tori has to do on her own. I mean, she's got to kind of dig deep and ask herself questions. Both of you, this question. I'm glad I was born when I was born. To be a kid today? Yeah. All this, it's just. Seems like there are too many choices. Not just choices, but when you get choices, you got 500 channels to go on. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just. Yeah. It's just, I mean, I'm just. No, it's true. March 21st, day of spring, 1957.

1:09:54Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know Cornish was simpler back then, but it was just like bananas. I mean, good God. And Spike, I don't know if you find this with the students you teach, but I hear this in young athletes. I hear it in young artists too. Everybody wants to be impactful right away. And that's unrealistic. It's unrealistic. And it gets back to what you were saying when we were talking a little bit about filmmaking is you got to put in the W.E.R.K.

1:10:34That was too good. That was too good. Leave me with the stuff that's messed up. Don't, don't, don't. You say we want. Stay don't. Right. But what are you telling your students when they come to you and they want to be Spike Lee right now rather than, you know? Well, they don't say they want to be me. You know, Spielberg is going to say, but what I do is that if this is what you want to do, you got to be serious about it. And you may read that stuff, but there's no things overnight success. Because a lot of people, they say that, but they want to leave out that, you know, they were giving blood to eat, donating blood to eat.

1:11:28So they leave that out. They'll tell you the back story, the dark side. The back story. And this is even more important. I tell my students, first day of class, I hope you are here. because this is what you want to do the rest of your life. Because you want to, because this makes you happy. Because if you have a job, occupation, that you love, that's a home run. That's a three-pointer. That's an 80-yard field goal. Oh, good Lord.

1:12:14That's our America. Yeah. Because when you have occupation that you love, you don't need to hit the alarm four times to get up. You do that when you hit a job you hate. When I'm shooting a film, I don't have an alarm. I know I got to be on the set at 6 a.m. I know when I need to put my skinny black ass to bed so I get sleep so I can wake up and do the job I love like we can tell Spike loves what he does the minute he walks in you know yeah but you ain't seen me in the Nick game though well actually I have I have it's rough you know what yeah will you be my guest I will this season I will don't waste that on her oh don't even take me nah

1:13:14I would be honored to be your guest at the garden have me back please I would love it thank you yeah yeah and give a last plug for the film what do you want to tell the people the new joint the new joint the new joint is highest to lowest starring Denzel Washington Jeffrey Wright A cast ASAP Rocky Yeah, it is A cast Wendell Pierce Streaming on Apple September 5th Apple TV Plus Yes, yes You see how the slippage doesn't happen when it comes to you know It's like pull up dates and whatnot I'd be like Spike and he he's not gonna know when the film drops It's like, nope not when it comes to the thing he loves There is no slippage I love you Spike Thank you for this.

1:14:10We'll see you back at the ranch.