Stop Being Scared of Fighting with Your Partner with Sterling K. Brown and Ryan Michelle Bathe

5:26Craig Robinson:I know, right?

5:28Sterling K. Brown:Sterling and Ryan Please come out

5:30Craig Robinson:Because we need to We need to talk through this

5:33Sterling K. Brown:And we gotta give We gotta give Sterling a little bit more time to come out because he is injured.

5:38Craig Robinson:Oh, there you go. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Hello, hello, hello. I love that you get settled. Here, let's.

5:46Sterling K. Brown:Sure, sure. Oh, man. Are you okay, first of all?

5:49Craig Robinson:You comfortable. You comfortable. You need a pillow. Okay. You know, can we get you some... Happy to be here. It's a true honor to be in you all's presence.

5:58Michelle Obama:Oh, it is. You're nice to see.

5:59Craig Robinson:We're just following in your footsteps. Listen. This is the podcast vets.

6:04Michelle Obama:My wife was very nervous. She went through how many? 51 outfits. Why are you telling her? Well, because this is how important you all are to us, to the culture, what you mean to everybody. Like, your sphere of influence is immense and powerful and beautiful, right? And so, thank you. Like, truly. Like, this is a real honor, right?

6:29Ryan Michelle Bathe:It's hard for me not to be, like, climbing your walls right now. And just be like, ah! So this is very good acting. You're doing great. I'm right. You look good.

6:38Craig Robinson:You're composed. You're beautiful. Thank you. This is going to be fun. This is family. Yeah. Because we already know all your business.

6:47Sterling K. Brown:You guys are agreeing right now. Look at that.

6:51Craig Robinson:You're agreeing on being excited to be here.

6:55Michelle Obama:But let's hear how Sterling ended up in the pandemic. Finished shooting season two of Paradise.

7:02Craig Robinson:Thank God it didn't interrupt that.

7:05Michelle Obama:My youngest son is a basketball player. And so his coach invited me to play like in a coach's game.

7:11Craig Robinson:It all begins with basketball. It all begins with basketball. With a black man in a brookie with a torn together. Now that's wrong. It all begins with, and there was a basketball game. There was a basketball game.

7:22Sterling K. Brown:Now see, if you had said we were out there playing golf or something, she would have been like, what?

7:26Craig Robinson:It never happens there.

7:27Sterling K. Brown:It does.

7:27Craig Robinson:But she's right. It happens on the basketball court.

7:30Michelle Obama:It is. two ACLs and now this Achilles situation. The ones I hear basketball, skiing, soccer, tennis. Now I hear like the pickleball people. Pickleball.

7:43Craig Robinson:Chiropractors. Rich.

7:45Michelle Obama:I was making a move to the left, like an innocuous step. Felt like somebody stomped on the back of my heel with a spike. And I started yelling. I was like, hey man, who stepped on my foot? And they're like, what you talking about, man? I was like, hey, just apologize for stepping on my foot. And we'll be cool. We keep the game going. Just keep it going. Just apologize. And they were like, bro. Nobody was near you. And it's that moment when you're like, you know what happened. You're like, man. Because you've heard that story. You've heard that story over and over again. I went to stand up. And then I was like, nope.

8:21Michelle Obama:And I scooched my booty off of the court. My team won. I stayed today. Because that. It was important. That, ladies and gentlemen, is an important part of the story.

8:32Craig Robinson:And you're like, you know that urgent care place you were talking about the other day? It's like Sunday. So what lesson have we learned from this experience? Oh, here we go.

8:41Michelle Obama:This is interesting. We had this conversation last night where my wife was asking me, are you still going to play?

8:48Craig Robinson:The ultimate wife question after a dumbass injury.

8:52Michelle Obama:There you go. So this is it.

8:54Craig Robinson:Honey, are we still doing this?

8:56Michelle Obama:So this is what I reiterated. Coach, you let me know how you feel about this. Okay. I'm a man of a certain age, right? I'll be 50 next birthday.

9:07Craig Robinson:Baby.

9:08Michelle Obama:Baby. A total baby, right? Sometimes when you talk to people that have given it up, my experience is there's a pervasive mentality of like, I've gotten too old to do X, Y, Z. I don't like the idea of getting older means that I've gotten old. So while I know I have to amend my game, I may have to do set shots. I may have to take it a little bit easier on defense. I don't like the idea of giving something up because I think that that is a pervasive sort of mentality that I don't want to invade the rest of my life. I like it. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to be stubborn.

9:45Craig Robinson:No, no, it does. Yes. So how are we about stretching? Very good. Okay. I stretch. My education part here is like even more stretching. Yes, ma 'am. The older we get, the more stretching. What are you laughing about?

10:00Sterling K. Brown:Thomas, we're going to talk about. I don't know. But I appreciate it. But I will tell you. No, this is for the. I will tell you your thought process about stopping playing. Yeah, no, it's a good one.

10:10Craig Robinson:It's a good one.

10:12Sterling K. Brown:Is not faulty. You want to play as long as your body allows you to. And there are master's leagues for guys who are my age. Okay. Still playing. Right. You can play competitively. As competitively as you'd like. Right. Or as calmly as you'd like. Even if you're just playing three on three. Sure. But what I want to tell my sister, there is a finite number of games in everybody's body.

10:37Michelle Obama:Right.

10:38Sterling K. Brown:And when you get to yours, you have an Achilles tear. Right. Some people will get it at 49. Right. And some people won't get it.

10:47Michelle Obama:Right.

10:47Sterling K. Brown:You cannot prevent what happened to Sterling. Stretching or no stretching. Right. I'm sure your doctor told you.

10:55Michelle Obama:Yeah. No, it's just one of those things.

10:58Sterling K. Brown:But stretching is really good for you.

11:00Michelle Obama:Stretching is important. And also, I'll say this too. Stretching is really good for you. Shut up, boys. I'll say this too, that like, I've been making this sort of adjustment in terms of how I run from landing on the heel to trying to land midfoot. And I also think that there's something about the tennis shoes that we wear that don't allow the strength of the foot muscles to be strong enough to necessarily support stuff. So I think my foot wasn't strong enough to support what I wanted to do in terms of, and I had to start wearing a thinner sole shoe. So as I do my recovery, I'll try to work with thinner.

11:34Michelle Obama:So like when Rye works out, she works out barefoot. And I see like every time I do a little bit of the barefoot workout, I'm like, oh, this hits different. You know, because your balance and the little foot muscles are trying to work different. And I think I need that as I get back.

11:46Ryan Michelle Bathe:You have a very small home gym. I'm not at a gym barefoot because that's nasty. Thank you, Chazanda. I don't want to say nasty. Can I say nasty? Yeah, it's nasty. So, but, you know, we have our little home thing. And I started doing that for that same reason. Because somebody was like, oh, it's about toe strength. And I was like, well, I don't know how to strengthen a toe. But it's like, you got to use them. I pull on them sometimes.

12:10Michelle Obama:I pull on her toes.

12:12Craig Robinson:Okay, well, then that gets us to...

12:14Michelle Obama:The marriage bed is under fire. Let's go.

12:16Craig Robinson:Oh, my word.

12:17Ryan Michelle Bathe:He's doing everything he can to embarrass me. I'm just telling you now. I'm just telling you now. We love it. We love it.

12:24Craig Robinson:So tell us about the podcast. Let's start there. How did this come about? And how's it going at home after the podcast?

12:33Michelle Obama:This is good. I'll take the second question. You take the first one. Okay. Okay.

12:37Ryan Michelle Bathe:So the first, it's weird how it came about. It came about because I really thought to myself, there have to be people out there on the right that I, this was before. Yes. It's like before, before. I said, there have to be same people I can talk to. I used to follow like David French and a few other people. I even Googled. It was actually at the, when, when President Obama was saying, you know, don't argue with the trolls in the basement, like try to have face-to-face conversations. And at the time I was like, I'm going to take that mantle and change my country. And I'm going to start with, you know.

13:13Ryan Michelle Bathe:So I was like, there's got to be somebody. I wasn't able to find anybody necessarily. and looked and looked. But I did. I did. I did look. I did look. I couldn't find nobody. Did this be given like

13:26Michelle Obama:chicks on the right? Is that the— I wasn't going to give them—

13:28Ryan Michelle Bathe:Yes, it was chicks on the right. Did they know what you're talking about? I did. That's a great concept. Chicks on the right. There was chicks on the right. I like that. And that's who I found initially, but then they kind of veered more and more right. I was like, oh, got it, got it, got it. You know, so— And I even reached out to them, like, email, because I was like, there's— this has to be able— we have to be able to have these conversations. And I was just convinced and I could not find it, but I was like, how do we have conversations about things we don't agree on? Even while agreeing on our basic humanity.

13:59Ryan Michelle Bathe:Without them sort of

14:00Michelle Obama:devolving into argumentation, but still staying in the spirit of like, there's a give and take. There's a conversation that's not like sort of antagonistic, but like, all right.

14:08Ryan Michelle Bathe:And a real disagreement. Like a real, like I stand on this side of a thing and you stand on this side of a thing. But it turned out the only person that I could have those.

14:16Craig Robinson:That's my husband. That's my husband. Well, and some people can't have it with their partner, so. Yeah, they're called husbands. Oh, not that.

14:25Ryan Michelle Bathe:Not that. But we've known each other for so long that I think we've, and we're so, we came up with such similarities. We were born in the same hospital, both from St. Louis. We were both, you know, very, born to very religious families, you know, very close to our grandmothers. But then there were so many things within that that were so polar opposite. that we've discovered over the years that we can't, obviously, we can't change each other. But what we can change is...

14:55Ryan Michelle Bathe:But what we can do is learn to sort of live a little bit better with those disagreements. And so we were just standing around and, you know, it was the strike.

15:05Michelle Obama:We were in the middle of the strike

15:07Ryan Michelle Bathe:and Rai was also looking for a creative outlet

15:10Michelle Obama:that would feel good. And I've always been sort of reticent to work together.

15:17Ryan Michelle Bathe:Because absents makes the heart grow fonder. More than reticent. More than reticent, Sterling. You've been very resistant.

15:23Michelle Obama:Absents makes the heart grow fonder. It's nice to go off to work and come home and be like, how was your day? Oh, this was my day. That's not what you said.

15:32Craig Robinson:What's your version of that?

15:34Ryan Michelle Bathe:You said, I don't want you annoying me at work. Do you remember that, Sterling?

15:41Craig Robinson:Do you remember those words? That sounds right. Oh, man.

15:46Michelle Obama:It sounds right, but not like, I want to be...

15:49Craig Robinson:Not in a bad way. Oh, no. Not in a bad way. It's like, you should have your space and I should have mine. That's what I'm talking about. You'll understand, Madam First Ladies. My word.

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17:39Sterling K. Brown:I didn't have to worry. Misha, I'm curious. When you think back over your life, what are some of the moments that made you truly feel comfortable and calm?

17:49Craig Robinson:Well, probably my eight years in the White House for some of the same reasons that you described. You know, I was kind of like the head coach of the office of the first lady. And with so much on your plate, you know, moving from one event to the next, I just didn't have the time or the capacity to worry about the details. Whether we were going to be on time, who I was talking to at any given moment, you know, what the weather was, how I was supposed to dress. So I had to rely on my team. And it was always a source of comfort to know that my team of people around me were on top of it, making sure that I had everything that I need so that when I entered a room, I could just be me.

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20:58Michelle Obama:but I also thought that the concept for the podcast was something that was really cool and sort of fit with the dynamic of our interplay like we are very Beatrice and Benedict if you're familiar with Much Ado About Nothing and just sort of like there's a verbal sparring that we have naturally that is fun without crossing a line every once in a while we both cross the line and after the podcast, we're going, hey, listen, man. Did you have to say that part? Did you like, oh, I thought we were doing that. And I'm like, no, no, come on, man. That one hurt. That one hurt. We have this thing. So we have this thing where, you know, we play the dozens.

21:37Michelle Obama:Me and my kids play the dozens. Oh, here he goes. And like, you know,

21:40Sterling K. Brown:they'll say something. But wait, wait, let's explain the dozens because we got listeners who are like, the dozens? You know,

21:45Michelle Obama:just sort of droning when you're like, sort of like making fun of each other but a good spirited sort of thing where it's not meant to hurt, but just sort of like... Gentle ribbing. Gentle ribbing.

21:52Sterling K. Brown:Gentle ribbing that sometimes gets serious. Sometimes it gets serious.

21:56Michelle Obama:Well, I didn't grow up with the gentle ribbing. No, let me tell this story. Okay, go ahead, go ahead. So I'm doing it with the fellas and whatnot, and they'll be like, you look old, man. I said, your mama old? And they're like, that's your wife. And I'm like, I don't care. But that's just messing with them, right? And so I said something to Ryan, just sort of messing with her to get her to go back. And she goes, that's why your mama has ALS. And I was like, whoa, man. Damn, that's not how I'm Ryan.

22:22Sterling K. Brown:That's not their environment. You're like, oh, oh, man. I do not understand what was happening between the playfulness.

22:31Craig Robinson:Oh, man. She just went right down. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Ryan is like, I bet this is hard. Hang on. Hang on. Ryan, did you have any brothers growing up?

22:41Ryan Michelle Bathe:No. She's an only child. That's why she got deep. I do have an older sister, but I did not grow up. and I did have cousins. Brian's like, isn't this the game? Me and the boys, me and the boys

22:54Michelle Obama:all lifted each other.

22:55Ryan Michelle Bathe:I'm like, what? It didn't quite go down quite like that. Brian said, this is the point of winning.

23:02Craig Robinson:I think, well, yeah, that did happen. The point is to win the argument. It's like, I know what will make to take you to your knees. So Brian, what was your

23:12Ryan Michelle Bathe:version of that approach? My version was that we were going back and forth. And I had run out of things to say. And then I did. I did reach for that. Yeah, it did. It's not better. It's not better.

23:24Craig Robinson:Oh, sweetie. I thought, I thought you were like, everyone had a really bad thing to say. Oh my gosh. And I didn't want to stop. That's great. Oh yeah, that's great.

23:34Sterling K. Brown:That's how you end that argument.

23:36Craig Robinson:I also did not know how to do it. It was done. Everybody go home. Everybody go wipe your tears. I know. I'm getting back to the fight. Your kids were in the room? Oh, yeah.

23:48Michelle Obama:Because we were all doing it with each other. You know what I'm saying? And then she tried to dance.

23:54Ryan Michelle Bathe:Well, no, they're just like, oh, you know, we can't play with mom. Mom goes dark. She goes dark. Oh, mom. You know, mom don't know how to play.

24:03Craig Robinson:When they go low, when she goes away, like, when Brian got out the shovel, she got out the shovel. I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't grow up. I didn't know. That's a good one. This is great. Oh, my goodness. So I say that to say we have this dynamic. Yeah.

24:23Michelle Obama:And I also would say that because we've known each other since 18, we'll be celebrating 20 years of marriage in March. There are things at this point in time in our life that we can talk about that we probably couldn't have talked about earlier in the marriage without it feeling like we were reliving it. We can recount it now without reliving it. So it was the right time.

24:45Ryan Michelle Bathe:And I think you mentioned this on your podcast, where it's like you want to sort of give a vulnerable and real portrait of something that, you know, we can't ignore the fact, oh, goals, oh, look at them. And it's like you see a certain thing, but it did feel like there was a responsibility there somewhere We were aware that we were like, okay, but we also want people to know what this really is. You know, it takes work and we can really talk about, you know, the ways in which we struggled and the ways in which we didn't struggle. And the things that, you know, came easy to us and why. And the things that came difficult to us and why.

25:24Ryan Michelle Bathe:So that people really didn't, you know, really don't think that it's just a, I woke up, found my soulmate. And every day is just.

25:33Craig Robinson:Yeah, that's right.

25:35Ryan Michelle Bathe:That's right.

25:35Craig Robinson:Because don't you find that couples quit too soon? And we've seen this in young people. Now everybody's young, right, to us, but new couples. And part of the reason why I talk about it being hard is not because I don't love my husband and we have a wonderful relationship. We've been married 30 plus years. Some works, right? But if you don't let people know about the tough times, then I think they quit too soon.

26:06Michelle Obama:They think that all the tough times are in that, I guess it didn't work.

26:09Craig Robinson:That's right. It didn't work. And then you quit too soon. Sure. And that's why I say things like you can go through 10 years, bad years, right? In a 30-year marriage. Yeah. And that's still great odds. It's not a bad, you know. Oh, my goodness gracious. And every time I say it, people are like, oh, Lord, I can't do 10.

26:29Michelle Obama:But if you were to play the odds of like, if you could have 10 % of hard for 90 % of wonderful, you would take that every thousand percent.

26:41Craig Robinson:And that's really the point. The point is that in any long relationship, there are going to be years, months, hours, long periods of time if you add it all up where things just don't feel right. You don't quit on it.

26:55Michelle Obama:Right.

26:55Craig Robinson:You know, sometimes that means you dig deeper. And if you don't dig deeper, you miss all the stuff on the end. Yeah. You know?

27:04Michelle Obama:Can I ask you a question that would probably be cut out of the podcast? No. Yes. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. He's like, please. He got it. Yes, you can. To get real for a second, because I think Ryan and I had this conversation before, too. In terms of the ups and downs, trials and tribulations, I'm missing it, but you know what I'm talking about. If kids were not a part of the equation in terms of like, do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't?

27:31Craig Robinson:That's a good question. No, no, no, no. I'd like to think not. Here's what I think. Sometimes without kids, some of the tough times wouldn't happen. Right? And this is why I say, look, it's great when it's just you two. You know, and because there really isn't challenges with division of labor because everybody can be their own individual people. You go off, do your movie. Yeah, yeah. We have our separate lives and then it's romantic. We get back together. The thing that makes that harder is when those beautiful, wonderful, lovely kids that we all want and love, they show up.

28:16Michelle Obama:Yes, ma 'am.

28:17Craig Robinson:With their own agendas, you know, with their own needs. And now it's the first major joint project that you have to do together.

28:26Michelle Obama:Yes.

28:27Craig Robinson:And that's when the hard starts, you know. So I think a lot of our hard was because of the kids, who we love deeply. But I think without it, without them, you know, a lot of the hard things don't come up, right? Because you can go to the gym all you want when there are no diapers to be changed. Thank you. You know, you can do whatever you want. Who's driving each other? Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know where they go to the doctor? Do you know their doctor's name?

29:03Sterling K. Brown:You started it, so don't. You chime in, Crane. What do you got to say to her? I will say that, see, I've been married twice. Okay. And hopefully that'll only be twice.

29:18Craig Robinson:Don't say hopefully. I got you. Definitely. Don't say hopefully.

29:22Sterling K. Brown:No, it will be. But I will say the difference between the first and the second was that because the first marriage didn't work out, the second marriage, I really intentionally talked about ground

29:40Craig Robinson:rules before getting married.

29:43Sterling K. Brown:That's good.

29:45Craig Robinson:I mean, look, athletes devote careers to a jump shot. Shot after shot. Years and years and years and years and years. You have one bad argument. You have one bad year in a marriage. I'm done. And you're done. Or you have three bad years and you're done. And look, the level of muscle that Barack and I have in our marriage is earned. It's earned over time. And it's only gotten better. And I think that's the point. It gets better. And then if you quit too soon, you'll rob yourself of the success of the better, the work that goes in. And we've been married 30 years. We're healthy people. We could be married for another 30 years.

30:27Craig Robinson:That's a long time. And it could be 30 years of absolute bliss, because we've done the work. We've gotten over the hump. Our kids are grown. They're out. We're looking at each other like, hey, remember you? Now I'm not mad about anything, because I don't need you to do anything for me.

30:48Michelle Obama:You guys are ahead of us because I want to ask these questions. I have questions for you. You guys are actually on our podcast right now. Every once in a while, we have these moments about empty nesting and the joint venture that you're talking about and how much time and resource that you spend on these both two people, right? And then the idea of what happens when that project is over and have you neglected the time that you need to pour into one another because you've been pouring into these two beautiful people? Like, did you look at each other like, oh man, now we got to do this again? Or do you feel like you prepared yourselves knowing that the nest was about to be empty and be like, all right, Barack, all right, like how are we going?

31:31Michelle Obama:We need to make sure that we are straight in this moment.

31:33Craig Robinson:I think we're still developing that part of ourselves, right? I mean, our youngest graduate, well, she went to college. She's been out for five years, right? My math is always wrong. Graduated from college five years ago. When I say leave, left for college. Okay. Right? Because that's the beginning of the leaving. Right. Like, you packed your bags and you're not going to be living here for nine months. That's a good one. For sure. It's a good start. Yes. Right? Yes. I think I might go in the suitcase. I just might. We'll talk. We'll talk. Because you haven't even gotten through the teen years.

32:09Craig Robinson:No, we just did the teen years, so Lord have mercy.

32:11Michelle Obama:The 14-year-old is beginning the process of suffering.

32:15Craig Robinson:You know, you'll be ready when it's time.

32:20Michelle Obama:As a knowing. Yeah, you're going to be ready. You're going to be ready.

32:24Craig Robinson:But I think it's a new phase for us, which takes time. Sure. It's going to take—we're in a new phase of life. My husband did the hardest job. He reached the top of the thing you could do. Now he's got work to do, individual work, to figure out where am I going to be? What do I want to say? Who do I want to be? I'm doing the same thing, right? That's a whole new assignment, right, that you have to factor in to the newness of now we're doing this, we're back to just me and him. It takes time is all I'm saying. All of these new stages take time for adjustment. When you guys had, when the boys were infants, you know, when one was just coming out of diapers.

33:08That's a whole new phase when, you know, you move from everybody's in a crib to people are walking around.

33:17Craig Robinson:Like that can change the whole nature of your interaction with your partner. And it takes time. So we think this stuff, this is like really hard, complicated stuff that you are negotiating with another person. You know, all I'm saying is like it all takes time to think that there aren't going to be bumps along the way of each of those phases. Yeah.

33:41Michelle Obama:Right. This is OK. Wait. So this is interesting. I love this conversation. This is wonderful. This is wonderful, Michelle. Thank you so much. So in my mind, like the question is for the listener in terms of navigating tough times, Craig being on a second marriage now, when do tough times become a step too far? What is the deal breaker? Like Ryan, I say for the most part, it's like there are no deal breakers for us. There are just things that we have to negotiate. There are things that we figure out. I say a rather crude thing about if you did this very bad thing to me. Sterling, Sterling. Do you want me to say it?

34:17Michelle Obama:No, I do not. Would I embarrass you too much?

34:19Ryan Michelle Bathe:I would embarrass me. Oh, okay. Okay, we don't want to embarrass.

34:22Michelle Obama:It's a scatological humor. Okay. And I won't go into it. Okay.

34:25Ryan Michelle Bathe:It is funny, but it's not.

34:26Michelle Obama:It's funny, but it's not for the literate. Yeah, yeah.

34:30Ryan Michelle Bathe:Okay.

34:30Michelle Obama:But I was like, if you did this awful thing to me, that would be the deal breaker, right? And it's really something that she would never do. Okay, yes. Right? And now I can imagine. All guys have an idea of what you're talking about. But my question is then in terms of navigating these difficult times, right? Mm-hmm. for people who are also in the midst of difficult times who are probably asking themselves, what's the difficulty that's too much? Obviously, if there's anything that's physical that's transpiring inside of a relationship, don't stay in some sort of abuse. And I would say even verbal, psychological, physical, etc.

35:05Michelle Obama:Abuse is not something that is meant to be tolerated. Outside of that, I'm curious, like, do you feel like there are deal breakers or things that you feel like people should walk away from? or everything is meant to just find your way through?

35:21Sterling K. Brown:I'll start. Please. Because I will say now in my relationship with Kelly now, there are probably no deal breakers for me. She might have some, but there's probably nothing for me. We could probably work through anything that I could think of aside from your scatological. There you go. but I think we can make our way through it. But I wouldn't have said that when we first got together. Okay. That's, that's, that's years of work. That's years of talk. That's years of, of both going through our own difficulties and coming out of it and together having difficulties and coming out of it. And you just, you, you emerge at a different level of understanding, a higher, being, just at a higher level of understanding.

36:16Sterling K. Brown:That's how I feel. It would really have to be something that I couldn't have seen coming that was so bad. But then I would be so worried that, what was I in this relationship to make you want to do something that bad? I got to take the responsibility of it. So that's just my own growth over the years. I love that.

36:38Michelle Obama:I love that.

36:40Craig Robinson:Yeah. 30 plus years in, I mean, like, he's me. We are so intertwined at this stage in life. Our experiences, our challenges, our family, like he would have to become a different person. Like that I would be like, who took over your body? and then we would be going to doctors and we would probably call the FBI and you know I mean because I'd have to be like this is something something happened to my husband it's not the same person and then I'd be worried like what is going on

37:25Michelle Obama:I felt that

37:33Sterling K. Brown:Raise your hand if you've been putting off a checkup, a dental cleaning, any kind of doctor's appointment. Yeah, my hand's up too. I'll tell myself I'm fine and keep it moving. But we can't take care of business if we're not taking care of our health. This year, we're doing it differently. You know that feeling when you leave a doctor's office and think, they really listened. That's what we're looking for. And you can find doctors like that on ZocDoc. ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. You can book in-network appointments with more than 150 ,000 providers across all 50 states.

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39:07Sterling K. Brown:You know, I've been thinking a lot about careers lately, especially in a job market like this. One thing I've learned is that you really have to think outside the box when it comes to your path. Nothing about my own journey has been linear. I've made pivots, followed my curiosities, leaned into the strengths and skills I had at the time. And somehow, all of that kept opening doors I never would have pictured for myself. And honestly, being willing to evolve made my whole career feel more dynamic and rewarding. The roles I ended up loving weren't always the ones I initially imagined. They were the ones that aligned with who I was becoming.

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41:09Sterling K. Brown:Knowing you guys' origin story Yes I think it's so different Because Mish didn't meet Barack until later Right I didn't meet my first wife until after And I didn't meet Kelly until way later Sure You guys knew each other Freshman year Freshman year And are still together I want to know

41:29Michelle Obama:How does that happen? How does that happen? What do you have to say to that bird?

41:34Ryan Michelle Bathe:Well, I think because I always look at it like life kept throwing us back together, you know, and similar to like, yeah, no, I'm good. Like we would go away. We would purposefully go away. And life would just keep tossing us back in the state. Our very first job, we were not speaking. We had just graduated from grad school. And I never forget.

41:59Sterling K. Brown:Yeah, this was on your first episode. Did we talk about this on the first episode? I don't.

42:04Ryan Michelle Bathe:Did we? Did we talk about it on the first episode? It was under five on Guiding Light. And I remember where I was when they said, you got the job and I was so excited. It was your first job. I was in one of those, like, you know, those big stores on like 42nd, like, you know, not H &M, but like, you know, V-I-M. Anyway, jeans and sneakers store. I was in V-I-M. Don't forget because I always wanted to go, you know, because it's the commercial. So I was in V-I-M and I was looking at stuff and they were like, And you got the job. I was like, oh my God, yes, I'm on my way. I'm on my way, right? And they were like, and you got your other classmate.

42:37Ryan Michelle Bathe:And I was like, who? And they said, Sarah Surrey. One of my dear, dear friends. I was like, yes, Sarah Surrey. And another classmate. I was like, who? And they were like, Sterling Brown. And I was like, uh. They're like, hello? He says, oh yeah, I'm here. Yay. We were not speaking. And we played a husband and wife. That is correct. In a Lamaze class. Yes, ma 'am. On Guiding Light.

43:00Craig Robinson:For sure. Why weren't you all speaking? What happened? Who did what? Was it mad I'm not speaking or you just weren't in touch?

43:08Sterling K. Brown:Y 'all were on and off from the time they met.

43:12Ryan Michelle Bathe:It was, who knows?

43:14Michelle Obama:I think you weren't speaking to me.

43:17Ryan Michelle Bathe:No, you weren't speaking to me, sir.

43:19Michelle Obama:Facts. Facts. But what I'm saying is we did our last show at NYU, which was Midsummer Night's Dream. Yes. And I'd see you come off stage. I'm like, yo, man, you just ripped that scene. I just want you to know it was really good. And you just walk.

43:35Ryan Michelle Bathe:Who asked you? Nobody asked.

43:38Michelle Obama:You ghosted before there was a term ghosting.

43:41Craig Robinson:Oh, did you do something? You know what you did.

43:45Michelle Obama:But after sustained neglect, I was like, all right, I'm going to stop trying now. So we had stopped talking to each other. So we get on set to do this scene. And what happens is anytime she knows that I've pulled away, She purposefully was like, hey, Sterling, how are you? What's going on? And she's like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, hey, what's going on, man? How you doing? It's good to see you. Whatever. No, no, no. So we had to do this scene. And she's sitting in my lap. You know, she's pregnant. I'm holding her up or whatnot. And the Lamaze destructor is going by. And she said, and dads, you're going to have to look after the mommies.

44:20Michelle Obama:You're going to have to do this and that and give them sponge baths and everything like that. And the lion goes, Ryan looks over her shoulder and she looks at me and she goes, sponge baths? and I look at her and I say, all the time. Except, when we do our line, she looks at me and she's like, she's touching me and all this stuff and I'm like, oh Lord, please stop touching me. And then, she looks at me and she goes sponge bath and I look directly in her forehead.

44:41Ryan Michelle Bathe:Yes.

44:41Michelle Obama:And I said, all the time. He couldn't look me

44:44Ryan Michelle Bathe:in the eye.

44:44Michelle Obama:And you looked over and she could tell. She could tell. But the camera could not. Yeah.

44:49Ryan Michelle Bathe:And I'm doing this and I'm trying to make it be in the eye.

44:52Michelle Obama:That's my camera right there. Brown gonna make it look real.

44:56Craig Robinson:He's like, That's why I'm an actor.

44:59Michelle Obama:That's why I'm here. Man, she was getting on my nerves.

45:02Sterling K. Brown:Wait, now, I want to digress. Please. Just for an acting thing, because you, husband and wife, both actors. Yeah. When does the discussion happen about each other doing make-out scenes with someone else?

45:18Michelle Obama:That's a great decision. That's a very good question.

45:21Craig Robinson:Well, he reminded me. That's what the man wants to know. Well, no, it's not. How do you, I'm just kidding.

45:25Sterling K. Brown:I think that's a question that people. The public, yeah. The public wants to know. I've never heard anyone ask that question because either people don't have an opportunity or they're just like, I'm not going to bring it up.

45:37Michelle Obama:It is acting. And what a lot of people don't realize, it's not as glamorous as you think it is. There's sweat and like people are coming to powder you and you have to hit this right angle because the camera can't see something or what have you. And it's very sort of like choreographed or whatnot. And I always tell the bird, I was like, hey man, make them look like you know what's going on. Like don't let them think that we ain't having a good time up in this week.

46:02Craig Robinson:You know what I'm saying?

46:03Michelle Obama:Like we know how to get in there. So like, you know, don't go out and act like that. You know what you're doing. The family is what I'm trying to say. Show them you got skills. There's no real jealousy in that sort of arena there because like we both have said like to do it well, It's not about pretending as much as it is investing in the given circumstances so much that you are living the truth of that character in that time. So you got to fall in love a little bit. And you got to be attracted a little bit. And that doesn't threaten anything that we have because we know where we sleep at night.

46:37Michelle Obama:We know who we've made our vows to, et cetera, et cetera. It just means I want you to act well. And hopefully you want me to act well. And sometimes, here's the other thing. You can take some of the energy that you got on set and bring that home. and bring that home

46:52Craig Robinson:bring that home

46:54Michelle Obama:that's what I mean that's the because a lot of people ask that question how do you do that how does that it's my job it's her job and you do it have you ever felt I just don't watch

47:05Ryan Michelle Bathe:he doesn't know this but I just when the scenes come up I just close my eyes I might get some ice cream I just don't watch I just don't I don't wanna fast forward yeah I just don't watch yeah I don't know if I could watch yeah I don't even like watching myself, though.

47:21Michelle Obama:She doesn't.

47:22Ryan Michelle Bathe:You know what I mean? Especially in those particular— I don't like watching myself necessarily. I have to because I have to see what I've done wrong or what I didn't. But, you know, I have to see. But certain things, there are things on First Wives Club that I still haven't watched myself do. I was like, no, I don't need to see that. And for me, I think it's the only way that I can sort of do what you say in terms of living in that moment. I have to just kind of like take a deep breath, live in the moment, and then I really just have to let it go. And it has to stay gone for me. So I can't ruminate on the scene and I can't ruminate on your scenes.

47:59Ryan Michelle Bathe:And I just have to, you know, I just don't watch.

48:01Craig Robinson:Well, that makes me think, well, like you guys didn't answer the question really. It's like, how have you worked through some of the tougher times in your marriage? and does one particular time stand out to you?

48:21Michelle Obama:There are, so Craig was saying something earlier about like, you know, two actors navigating the industry together, right? And so there's something about, you're going to have your own take on this and that's fine. And I just ask that you let me finish my take first.

48:39Ryan Michelle Bathe:We don't always agree. Go ahead.

48:41Michelle Obama:You don't always agree, and he is preparing for you not to agree. I just ask that you allow me to finish my take first before you offer yours. Okay. Please and thank you. Appreciate it. There is sometimes this feeling of like, all right, when there is momentum happening in one person's career, you have a desire for momentum in your own career as well. And while you can say and truly believe that we are doing very well right now, whether it's financially or otherwise, if the other person isn't experiencing something that is validating for them on a personal level, whatever's transpiring for you may feel very separate and distinct.

49:26Michelle Obama:And so I will say that there are times in which I'm like, how do I make sure that my wife feels included and acknowledged and appreciated as there's a certain level of momentum transpiring in my life? And there's varying degrees of success in terms of us feeling connected in it and separate in it. So that's an ongoing thing that I'm navigating. After you.

49:54Ryan Michelle Bathe:I would say You know George Burns Was asked this question About his His long You know Hollywood marriage To Gracie And he said We never fell out of love At the same time And I can look back At our Relationship And I really do believe That We've I don't know that That's a deal that we've made Or something that's just Kind of sustained us

50:20Craig Robinson:Yeah

50:21Ryan Michelle Bathe:But I don't think we've ever fallen out. And even before we got married, I would say that when one pulled away, the other one was like, and when, you know what I mean? So I don't think we've ever decided at the same time, I'm done with you. And so I think that there's something that makes one of us, if not both of us, but at least one of us is always pulling for us.

50:48Michelle Obama:I would agree with that. And so I think that that's,

50:52Ryan Michelle Bathe:at the very, very core, at the very, very root of it. We believe in therapy. Yeah. We very much believe in therapy. I think that that has given us an opportunity to kind of see the forest for the trees. Like what you were talking about is like, okay, you might have some bad years. Like it's only been six months. Like let's see what happens when the baby is walking. And then that's a whole nother corner, you know, literally and figurative that you're going to turn together. I also think that because we have the children, again, you'd like to say that, well, no, we're not just staying for the kids.

51:32Ryan Michelle Bathe:You'd like to say that, but we do know that there's something bigger now than just the both of us and whatever is going on at that moment. Yes, I can be very volatile, and I can, you know.

51:44Michelle Obama:Say it again in the microphone. No, I am not.

51:47Ryan Michelle Bathe:I heard you say it. You know, but like you asked, It's like what things that you thought about when you were younger that you wouldn't put up with. Like there is definitely a 19-year-old me that would have had the time of her life with a very dramatic, I'm packing this thing and I'm packing this thing. Like that would have been part of the fun, right? Burn the deed. The whole thing. And chase me. Yes, chase me. Confine me.

52:08Craig Robinson:Girl, you know what to do. And girl, where we going to meet?

52:12Ryan Michelle Bathe:Like, you know, the whole—I think I did that when I was pregnant because I gave birth at home. And I remember there was, you know, stuff going on. Stuff going on. And I looked at my hand. I was like, it's bloody. And I put it on the wall. And I was like, ah, that scream. So that I can have the bloody hand written down. Oh, okay, Brian.

52:33Craig Robinson:I can watch this long. This is the only child drama. It was. It's strong.

52:40Michelle Obama:It's strong. Reach out. I love you. Oh, my God.

52:45Craig Robinson:I love it. So you can think of some stuff. I really can.

52:49Ryan Michelle Bathe:I really can. Ma 'am. But I think that I have put a lot of that and said, okay, now, now, now you have, you, you, it's not just you and this, the dramatic moments and all of those things. There is something bigger that's calling you. And it is those, those 30 years on the other side. It's the children and what, what we can provide. And it's, it's all of that. And it just feels bigger than just whatever that small moment is, or even that big moment. That's not to say that there haven't been big moments, but I think that there's something bigger that calls us to fight for what we have.

53:23Michelle Obama:I'm going to go back and just combine the two things together because it feels like when things are difficult, if we feel as if we are in them together, they are way easier to endure versus when we feel as if we're separate in it. You know what I'm saying? Like that's, that's always like, that's probably the toughest times that we have when we feel like we're going through something as a couple, as a family and or individually and we don't feel like we're on the same page. Those are the times that are the most difficult, I would say. Yeah.

54:04Craig Robinson:Brian, I want to just check in with you on, you know, because you talked about the fact that you sacrificed your career to be there for your kids. You made some, you made some choices. That, you know, that, that is the story of so many women out there. We're still, you know, we, we can talk about being equal partners and so on and so forth, but we give birth, Our bodies change. We are constantly adapting in ways that our partners, our male partners, do not have to do it. It's a part of it. And so we wind up saying you can have it all, but not at the same time. Sometimes that's easier said than experienced.

54:54Ryan Michelle Bathe:Most of the time it's easier said than experienced.

54:56Craig Robinson:I'd love to hear more from you about how you felt through those moments and how you're— I know you're still dealing in those moments. How does that, how are you coping with that reality?

55:11Ryan Michelle Bathe:That is an excellent question.

55:13Craig Robinson:Very good question.

55:15Ryan Michelle Bathe:Yeah, you know, it, gosh, that's a really good question because when you first, I mean, you can see it. I mean, you're pregnant and everything, everybody's like, oh, so excited for the both of you. And then you look down, looking at you, you know what I mean? and you're slowing down and you're changing and you're waddling and this, you know, like, wait a minute. Like, I'm already slower than I had really bad hyperemesis, which is when you just, you know, you're sick, sick, sick and, you know, and then not, not sharing any of that. Going to the gym. Going to the gym. I'm going to get a good workout in.

55:51Ryan Michelle Bathe:And you're like, shut up. That makes everybody mad.

55:54Michelle Obama:I see this now. This is a universal thing.

55:56Ryan Michelle Bathe:And then he tried to tell me and the baby was brand new. He's in the gym. He's like, But I'm working out outside in the garage. You're welcome. Like, and he really felt like he had given me this very magnanimous gift. And I was like, if I could get up from this couch and beat you into something. You know, and again, you're watching. And again, you want to be. That's the pull, I think, that a lot of women don't realize. Women don't realize the kind of mother they're going to want to be until the baby shows up. There you go. And you have no idea. No idea. Some women decide, whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's, I want to, whatever it is, you don't know.

56:36Ryan Michelle Bathe:It's an experiential thing. And when you, all those decisions are made very deeply in your core. And I don't want to say they're made on the fly, but they're made in these sort of like, just the baby's here. That's the decision. And so you had all these plans, right? And everybody told you, girl, you're going to snap back. Girl, all you have to do, remember how we read them. you just do the cleanse, girl. Do the cleanse. And you're like, okay, well, I'll just... And in your mind, you really believe that you're going to just do this cleanse. You're going to pop back. You're going to put that baby in a little pouch and you're just going to, you know, you just...

57:12Ryan Michelle Bathe:Drop them off somewhere or have somebody else come in.

57:14Craig Robinson:You don't even know how you'll feel about that.

57:16Ryan Michelle Bathe:You don't know how you're going to feel about...

57:17Craig Robinson:When you'll be ready for that.

57:19Ryan Michelle Bathe:You don't know how much it's going to cost. Yeah, ooh, yes. You don't know that the woman that you want to hire was given a signing bonus, but... Oh my...

57:28Craig Robinson:I tell the story when I did find a babysitter that was really, really good. And she came to us at everything. I was back to work. I love this woman. She was a part of our family, loved the girls. And she just needed to make more money. And we couldn't pay her more money. And she left. And I still feel that her, like, I feel the like, you know, I was losing my real partner. in this endeavor. Oh, I wouldn't have thought I would have felt that way about my babysitter. My, you know. I know. And that sent me spinning. That one thing sent me spinning in a fit of deep desperation that I would have never thought.

58:18Ryan Michelle Bathe:Well, of course. I mean, and I, having had that experience, I understand. If I had kids, I'd be sitting here and go, oh, that sounds, that sounds like a lot. It's like, sure. I mean, is that PTSD? But you have to experience that, you know? Like, Zoila Palacios is our girl. I call her my sister wife. You know, she— Shout out to Zoila.

58:41Craig Robinson:Zoilita! Zoilita! Hey, girl. We love you.

58:44Ryan Michelle Bathe:We do. We love our Zoilas in our lives. Because you have that, you know, that— What we grew up with, that village, the grandparents. Like, somebody—you know, my grandmother never left the house. Somebody was always dropping a child off at that woman's house. And my grandmother was like in her 70s and could barely walk. And here, I'm like, you got a, whose toddler is that? She's like, I got him. And nobody batted an eyelash. Didn't have a thing and not narrowing a socket in the house. You know, the little thingies. That's right.

59:16Sterling K. Brown:Nothing to protect them from themselves.

59:18Craig Robinson:And nobody was worrying about what strain of food they were eating. Whatever grandma gave you. Was totally fine.

59:25Ryan Michelle Bathe:She has some fat back and some sauce and a baby holding on to some kind of bone.

59:31Craig Robinson:It's like, I don't think they should have meat yet. That'd be fine. That'd be fine. That'd be fine. And nobody questioned it, right? You just knew your baby was loved and safe. Yeah, because my grandma had her. Those communities are gone.

59:48Ryan Michelle Bathe:We didn't have that. And we're some of the first people who don't have that. And so then we have to hire that and find that. And to your point, it's like losing a— It's not like. It is losing a family member. It is losing a crucial part. And again, you don't know what you're going to feel and experience until you get there. And again, to your point about each season. So now I'm like, okay, well, it should be getting easier, right? Because they're older and— And I got a 14-year-old and I'm like, oh, well, I'll just— You're a chauffeur. Let me just—I'm a chauffeur. But also I'm like, I clearly need to ride the bus with you.

1:00:24Ryan Michelle Bathe:I clearly need to be in every class. I clearly need to be in stock.

1:00:26Sterling K. Brown:Because what does half-man think?

1:00:29Ryan Michelle Bathe:Well, he thinks he can. He told me once, he's like, all I need to do is learn how to use this toaster oven, and then I've got it. Like, I've got it. Like, I'm basically a man. And I was like, you don't know the Wi-Fi code.

1:00:41Sterling K. Brown:All I need is a credit card and a driver's license. I can live on my own. He said that. He said that. He said that.

1:00:48Michelle Obama:He said, all I need you guys to do is take me where I need to go.

1:00:52Craig Robinson:No, that's a big one. But for that, I'm a mate. But for that, I was like, and who's going to have a school?

1:01:00Michelle Obama:And he didn't even mean it meanly. He was like, please, just leave me alone. Take me where I need to go.

1:01:04Ryan Michelle Bathe:He did ask me when I was, he was three, and he said something. Something was happening. He was three, and he was like, why are you always in my business? I'm like, who? Where did you come from?

1:01:16Michelle Obama:That's Michael Coyle. That's Michael Coyle.

1:01:19Craig Robinson:You are your father.

1:01:20Ryan Michelle Bathe:That's another thing. The thing that you love about this man, you are going to see it in a child. And then you have to raise that. You're like, oh, Lord, I should have thought this through. But every phase is different.

1:01:33Craig Robinson:And now you're, you know, just when you thought. Just when you think.

1:01:36Ryan Michelle Bathe:Because you didn't know. Again, it's the experience of it. And it's like, and now you see, oh, this is how things can go left. Because you think it's when they're little and you're just pouring in, you're pouring in.

1:01:46Craig Robinson:Don't you want those days back when they were so in your control and all you had to worry about them was falling and scraping a knee. And now they are in the world, this world.

1:01:58Michelle Obama:It's a good conversation, guys. Yeah. You guys are good.

1:02:01Sterling K. Brown:No. We're just learning. We were learning from the experts here.

1:02:06Michelle Obama:No, I feel the same. I feel like even in a Rise approach, and I feel you guys are similar, is like we try to enter into everything with a level of curiosity. We're not experts on anything and just hoping to learn. Like we're all in a process of evolving to become the best form of ourselves. I think in doing that, like there is just sort of like teach me, like I'll share a thought and then let's see how it all sort of reverberates in the, in the cipher.

1:02:37Sterling K. Brown:What I love about doing this aside from getting to spend time with my little sister on a regular basis is that you, I learn something new in every conversation. And at this age, to come to work every day and feel like you're learning something new is inspirational.

1:02:59Michelle Obama:Yeah. Agreed. We agree. We all agree.

1:03:05Sterling K. Brown:Well, we have a question that we get from our watchers and listeners. Oh, this is good. And this one is from our hometown, Jackie from Chicago. Come on, Chyta.

1:03:18Michelle Obama:I love Chicago.

1:03:19Ryan Michelle Bathe:Hey, Michelle and Craig. Shout out from Chicago. I'm writing to seek your advice about my relationship with my husband of five years. We both teach at the college level and share a deep commitment to education and our students. And much of our connection is built on a love of learning and a belief in bettering ourselves and the world. However, our creative paths and temperaments are quite different. I work in substance abuse social work, and my husband is a musician and visual artist with a strong creative drive. We each experience our work so differently. My husband tends to experience excited, creative highs surrounding performances and exhibits, followed by times of withdrawal and low mood after he's done or between shows.

1:03:59Ryan Michelle Bathe:In those times, he's focused on his classes and getting the next show off the ground, but he can seem quiet and distant at home. He kisses me goodnight, tells me he loves me, but doesn't initiate much conversation or interaction. Although I need some creativity with problem solving in my work, I'm not involved in the creative arts at all and don't necessarily experience the same emotional waves. Here's where I need your advice. I sometimes find myself hesitating to ask for intimacy or suggesting going out on a date when my husband is experiencing these moments of just needing to recharge by sitting together quietly watching TV.

1:04:34Ryan Michelle Bathe:I worry if I ask for affection or conversation or intimacy during these phases. I'll sound selfish or insensitive, but if I don't speak up, I start to feel disconnected and dissatisfied. I want to be a supportive partner during his creative slumps, but I also need to feel seen and wanted, and I miss the closeness that comes from shared moments out or together in bed. How can I best balance his need for space and creative solitude with my own needs for intimacy, affection, and quality time? How do I show up as a good partner who values his mental health and well-being without losing sight of what I want and need in our relationship?

1:05:11Ryan Michelle Bathe:Thanks so much for all your great work.

1:05:14Michelle Obama:I'm going to tell Jackie to get out of my marriage. Welcome to IMO. What? Jacqueline? What? Because here's the thing. And you'll probably say the same thing, possibly or not. I think I'm Jackie. Are you Jackie? I think I'm Jackie. Ryan's like, I'm Jackie. That's what I was about to say. That's why I was like, you may feel the same way. But she asked you guys, so you guys.

1:05:42Craig Robinson:No, she's asking the table. She's asking the table.

1:05:45Michelle Obama:I mean, I'll start on it because, like, I feel like we had a conversation kind of like this last night.

1:05:52Craig Robinson:Oh, wow. Tell us more. Are you okay, Ryan? We ready? Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering where he's going. But it was about sort of, for me, understanding the nature between acceptance and resignation.

1:06:10Michelle Obama:In terms of like, this is what it is, like what to fight to change and what to accept in its current status and be at peace with. And like the difference between acceptance and resignation, as far as I can conceive of in this moment, is acceptance has a certain level of peace and resignation has a certain level of sorrow. And sort of like what, when to fight, when not to fight, when to yield, etc. So I can say this and you step in, please, because I want a back and forth on this one because it'll feel better. Okay. My experience of Rye when she is working versus when she is not working is very different.

1:06:50Michelle Obama:And there is a level of just sort of like joy. And because there's a certain level of fulfillment from coming to do it. Because she's enjoying doing the thing that she's wanted to do. What she wants to do, right?

1:07:09Michelle Obama:And so we ride a wave sometimes. We ride a wave sometimes.

1:07:14Craig Robinson:Do you feel closer when she's in that joy?

1:07:19Michelle Obama:Yeah.

1:07:20Craig Robinson:Okay. Hands down. Hands down. So the not working part you describe as that's Ryan's slump. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:07:28Michelle Obama:Agree, disagree. I mean, you should speak on it because I don't want to go too far. Yeah. I'm back to Jackie. Come on.

1:07:38Ryan Michelle Bathe:I was trying to describe her.

1:07:41Craig Robinson:As the children would say.

1:07:42Ryan Michelle Bathe:Is she talking about the times when her husband is not working at all on something creative? Or is she talking about the low that comes from like coming off of stage, right? Because that's a real thing. Like you come off of stage and you have this high from doing whatever it is. And then you come off and you're just buzzing. And then you kind of go into a slump either like immediately after. So I'm trying to discern, is she talking about, he's had this incredible emotional high, he's come off stage, and now he's home, and he's like, ugh, like, feeling the after effects of that, and that's when she wants to sort of step in?

1:08:20Ryan Michelle Bathe:Or is it, he's been on a creative journey, had a wonderful time, and then he's in between creative journeys? So I'm— I read it as the latter. The latter, okay.

1:08:30Craig Robinson:But that's how I, that's a good question. That's how I interpreted it because it sounds like, you know, those periods, you know, because the afterstage, I need a day. Is a different emotional, would create a different emotional instability for Jackie than I haven't, I'm not in my element for a year or months, right? Right, right, right, right, right. And that could lead to the kind of disconnection that she's talking about. So I interpret it as these are, you know, there are periods in a creative person's life when things aren't coming, things aren't gelling. And he seems, Jackie's partner seems to get really low and disconnected.

1:09:20Craig Robinson:That's how I'm reading it. Okay. Okay.

1:09:24Ryan Michelle Bathe:Thank you for that clarification. Okay. This is all right. This is a very difficult question. You know, I think that there has to be— Well, you know, we already said that your happiness is your own responsibility, right? And I don't want to tell Jackie necessarily to go do her own thing. But I do think that there is something about creating structures around these times. Especially if you know that these are times that happen. I'm not sure in their relationship because she mentioned that they were both professors. So I'm wondering if they can, it might be easier for them to create structures around this because maybe there are like set points in a year where he's like, I just finished a show or, you know, something like that.

1:10:11Ryan Michelle Bathe:So maybe it's helpful. I hope this is helpful for Jackie to set up those structures when she knows he needs a couple of weeks and maybe put a timer on it. You know, Jennifer Aniston said something that I love. She said that her therapist told her, you get a year to grieve this, like to the day. Like, and it starts now. Now you're on the clock. And when that year is up, we're done. And I do think that there's something to that. Maybe there's something to giving him two and a half weeks, three weeks. And she knows those three weeks are coming so she can set up her own life, her own, you know, not saying she should go on a vacation.

1:10:49Ryan Michelle Bathe:Although Jackie, if you're going on a vacation, that's not the worst idea. but maybe there's a way that she can know that these things are coming he can have his time and then when those three weeks are up he has to re-engage with her so maybe both of them can have what they need and he may not understand that this he may not even know it's happening because it's just his how life has been for him and now he has to contend with another person and his way of dealing with it doesn't it just doesn't work yeah

1:11:21Craig Robinson:I latch on to the question of, should I communicate these thoughts? That's Jackie was asking. And I would say, yes, you communicate to your partner how this is making you feel because maybe you don't feel like you're in a safe space. But I think at the very core, I would say, Jackie, it is not helpful for you to hold on to these feelings and not involve your partner in this challenge. And it may be better to do it in a time where he's up, you know, rather than piling on at a time when he's perhaps already emotionally vulnerable. So thinking ahead to like, okay, assuming that all else is fine and they're not teetering on the brink, that she's got to remember how she feels when times are good, or remember the bad times when times are good.

1:12:22Craig Robinson:Because sometimes it's hard to have a conversation when everything is, a tough conversation when everything is good. Right. But it might be necessary for her to say, hey, you're winning. Look at you. you just created this and now you're coming home. Now let's talk about last month. I didn't want to share this with you, but I don't even know if you notice, but when things aren't going well for you, you tend to show up in this way. It makes me feel this and feel that. Can we talk about that? Do you see it in the same way? Because she also wants to get a sense of what is what is he really feeling?

1:13:01Craig Robinson:She's interpreting what she thinks he's feeling if she hasn't asked. So she's got to give him some space to say, right, wrong. You know, no, that's not it. Or, ooh, spot on. And then in that moment, let's talk through this. Let's talk through a plan. and this, I think this, Ryan, is where the plan of, can we get some agreement now that if we, if we both agree that we're doing, you're doing this and that it's making me feel this way, how can we resolve it? And is there a period of time? Is there a signal? Is there a word? Is there a, or do we set up a structure that no matter what, we're always going to go on a date night once a month.

1:13:45Craig Robinson:We're always going to mark the box when we are intimate. We're going to, we're, we're, just going to practice our way through your bad time. But that's got to be a joint.

1:13:55Michelle Obama:Yes.

1:13:56Craig Robinson:He may not know. He may not even

1:13:59Ryan Michelle Bathe:realize, especially if this is something that he's been doing before they got married. It may be a complete blind spot for him. It might be a blind spot, Jackie. It might be a blind spot.

1:14:10Sterling K. Brown:We got some points for Jackie. I think it starts with the communication part. You have to communicate it. and then

1:14:19Craig Robinson:and she shouldn't feel guilty or feel like she should hold on to it

1:14:24Sterling K. Brown:yeah there's some other issues there if she doesn't feel like she can communicate

1:14:29Michelle Obama:there's something I think that may not have been fully articulated that was part of our conversation in terms of what you said man if you make a bid for connection and you feel as if that bid for connection gets rejected then it's like then what do you do you know what I'm saying it's like oh boy it's like playing double dutch sometimes Like, when do I get in with this cat to try to make this connection? And if you got hit by the rope, you're like, ah, dang, I didn't get in at the right time. Yeah.

1:14:55Sterling K. Brown:You got to be blunt, though. Yeah. You have to be blunt if that happens. Speak on it, coach. Come on. In my experience, you can't tiptoe into the rope, right? Or if you tiptoe into the rope, you know you're going to get hit. But if you go in confidently and bluntly, you're going to jump right in and get your steps down. That's good.

1:15:16Ryan Michelle Bathe:That is good. Maybe that's what she needs. She just needs the confidence to boldly say what her truth is.

1:15:22Sterling K. Brown:Or I need to have a deeper conversation about what's going on here. And that gets to the negotiation, which gets to your structures. I mean, I love the structure. I'm a structure person. You have 30 points. Coach me. Coach me up.

1:15:39Craig Robinson:Coach me up.

1:15:40Sterling K. Brown:And I will do what I can. But, you know, and sometimes in these relationships, and I don't want to get too far afield, I want Jackie to hear those three points. Sure. But I also want to talk about how Jackie can't be one of these folks who gets upset because the guy is like, coach me up. She doesn't want him to say, coach me up. She wants him to figure it out on his own.

1:16:11Michelle Obama:You're expecting people to read your mind, is what you're talking about.

1:16:14Sterling K. Brown:expect people to read your mind, which is why you got to go in bluntly. Okay. That's why you got to go in bluntly.

1:16:20Craig Robinson:Well, and then you got to also acknowledge that for Jackie, expressing her intimacy needs could feel risky. She may make her feel vulnerable. I mean, sometimes asking for, having to ask, you know, that might tap into some insecurities about her. It's like, maybe I'm not worthy. Maybe I, you know, so, you know, sometimes that, that I want you to read my mind stuff is about, like, don't make me say it. Come on, empathy. Like, don't, don't make me say it because it's hard for me and I feel unsafe. And this is where you got to know your partner because where, what's their history of safety and intimacy?

1:17:07Craig Robinson:I am Jackie. You know. Sterling.

1:17:10Ryan Michelle Bathe:I am Jackie. You guys had someone on your podcast who was talking about the edge of vulnerability, like finding the edge in terms of the vulnerability with your partner. And I feel like this is like… That was Orna. Yes, Orna. And this is very much that. Like she is really… Jackie sounds like she's at the edge. You know, to your point about like, well, there's something there that's very scary for her. And she's at that edge and like teetering, you know? Yeah. But I think she's… She may feel unsafe, but… Sterling is feeling it. I'm like, okay. You need me to hold your hand. I'll take it.

1:17:49Craig Robinson:No, just let it go. You are good enough.

1:17:53Sterling K. Brown:Listen. You strong. I love you.

1:17:56Craig Robinson:Ryan's like, please, boy. I love you. I love you. You are beautiful.

1:18:02Ryan Michelle Bathe:I think Jackie is… She chose this partner for a reason. And I think she should remember that and remember that she… It may feel unsafe, but I… I'd like to believe that she might be safer than she realizes.

1:18:16Michelle Obama:You know now. You know I'm Jackie, don't you?

1:18:19Ryan Michelle Bathe:You are not Jackie. You are not Jackie. Jackie is Jackie. You are sterile. Leave Jackie alone.

1:18:26Michelle Obama:I'm every woman. It's all in me. Now, wait.

1:18:34Sterling K. Brown:I hope Jackie knows we're not taking her thing lightly. No, she got some good direction here. Now, I want to, before we move on to the IMO segment, the social segment. Yes, sir. You two met each other before today, but you didn't get a chance to. So tell me about that.

1:18:55Craig Robinson:You've been rubbing it in for years.

1:18:58Sterling K. Brown:It's been like 12, 13 years.

1:19:00Craig Robinson:Until, yes, for years.

1:19:01Michelle Obama:I did a show called Army Wives on Lifetime. and there was, I believe it was like a luncheon for military spouses, et cetera. And you invited the cast of Army Vies because we were on the air at the time. And it was like an episode of Key and Peele, the receiving line. Everybody was in the receiving line and all the ladies were coming through. And Madam First Lady was like, nice to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for your stuff. Everything like that. And Brown got up there and I was like, can I have a hug? and she said boy please come and we just it was like locked the arms were out the guns were showing I was like burn guess who hugged me today a real hug

1:19:47Sterling K. Brown:man a first lady held me

1:19:49Michelle Obama:in her arms and I felt loved and seen and appreciated and Ryan looked at me like are you she was so mad and the more the more I shared the more angry she became and then the more I shared I was like she hugged me close and now today so did you commemorate that it was one of the great days of my life so I know my sister

1:20:21Sterling K. Brown:wanted to commemorate you have it

1:20:25Craig Robinson:watch your Achilles do not hurt yourself oh my gosh bro I wasn't lying. This is it.

1:20:37Michelle Obama:This is a joke. You guys. This is like the greatest play of my life. You're going to get to take a picture after this and then you'll be fine.

1:20:47Sterling K. Brown:We are going to get a copy of that so that Nish signs it for you. I remember that moment too, Sterling.

1:20:56Craig Robinson:I do. I do. One of the things, One of our strategies with joining force is our effort to support military families was working with Hollywood runners and writers to really, you know, reward and uplift shows that were shining a light on military families and also get writers to put them into scripts in ways that were normal and natural because most people don't understand that struggle. So your show was, you know, one of the leading ones. And we thought a lot of the military wives and moms were watching it. So we were like, this would be a fun moment. So it was really special. I think my mom was probably there too.

1:21:38Craig Robinson:I think she was. At that luncheon. But it was really, and the fact that the cast and crew took the time to come to the White House to help honor those women who were sacrificing and serving. It was really good. I know, I see.

1:21:54Ryan Michelle Bathe:And I see the belt. I remember all your belts

1:21:58Sterling K. Brown:yeah those belts you can't miss those belts you cannot miss them

1:22:02Michelle Obama:y 'all I don't know if you can come in on my camera but this happened like bro you think I'll just be making stuff up brown don't be making stuff up that was the point brown don't make stuff up this happened thank you all very very much you are so silly this is the sweetest thing ever thank you for being here are you kidding me oh my god well we can't wait well before we go

1:22:25Craig Robinson:because, you know, you guys will be working together again. Yes, we will. Sort of a bit on the next season of Paradise. One of my favorite shows. I am there.

1:22:35Michelle Obama:Thank you.

1:22:35Craig Robinson:I am, you know, this, Johnny, come lately.

1:22:39Sterling K. Brown:I'm late to the party. Johnny, come lately. I'm there when you're ready. You know, it's much better when I can just breeze through.

1:22:45Craig Robinson:Well, sometimes I just let them pile up. Oh, do you do that? I do. I can't do that with the ones I like. No, it's psychological discipline because I just can't.

1:22:53Michelle Obama:I need to

1:22:55Craig Robinson:psychological discipline it is no I agree

1:22:57Michelle Obama:can I say this this last part to end because I was talking on That Was Us I do a rewatch podcast with This Is Us I was saying this about my wife and I would put you Madam First Lady in the same category and I'm sure if and when your husband gets a chance to hear this he'll echo there is one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone who has not fully realized their potential at that time is to say yes to them in their current set of circumstances and just believe that this is an individual that regardless if they have all the trappings that come along with what I want success or what I think success or what society says success should look like, I still choose you.

1:23:39Michelle Obama:That is one of the most like emboldening and like wonderful feelings that you can ever have in life. So to both of you, I say thank you because it means a lot. It means a lot. Yeah.

1:23:52Sterling K. Brown:That's a mic drop there.

1:23:54Craig Robinson:Really? Aw. Aren't you cute?

1:23:59Ryan Michelle Bathe:And that's why we stay. They're just so cute.

1:24:03Craig Robinson:I know. And they say things like that. It's like, aw. Well, this has been fun. Yes. This has been great. You had a great time. Oh, you too. Thank you. This is great. Thank you.

1:24:17Ryan Michelle Bathe:time. We really appreciate y 'all. Yeah. They're trying to keep us apart. No more. We did it. No more.

1:24:26Craig Robinson:No more. It's a pleasure.

1:24:30Ryan Michelle Bathe:Same, same, same, same.

1:24:47Thank you.