Tap Into Your Vulnerability with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson

26:46And I'll say that because I found that it was always very easy when we would reach out because we would always reach out to top athletes, to top entertainers. WNBA women always signed up when we all voted from college on. It was always hard to get the brothers to focus. I'm just wondering why? What are we missing in sports where women athletes are ready to go whole hog? I want him to answer first because I think he's come a long way, but he has. And this is a very interesting question because I was someone who dove in once I started learning about it. But he was someone on the other side. He'd only seen, and I'll let him speak for himself, he'd only seen the bad side of stuff.

27:38So what is my vote or what is my voice going to do? And especially, you know, with, you know, George Floyd was my close friend, like my twin. So seeing that whole situation, you know, seeing both sides with people that are there for the right reasons and people that are not, you know, it'll rub you the wrong way because you're dealing with a situation where there's somebody that you love that passed. Yeah. But now you're using this for a political gainer, you know, so I've seen both sides. So for me, I actually start asking them questions because there's a lot I don't understand and don't know.

28:08I kind of leave them, leave them my heart. Yeah. You know, and I'm not big on hope dealing. If you want to do something for somebody, do it. If you know what they need, do it. That's just how I look at it. So, and I know politics is not that clear cut. So I'm open now to listen to him and to learn more about politics because, you know, I understand how it affects us. Yeah. From the George Floyd situation. So I've always been one person. I don't know everything and I've been willing to learn. But that situation with me, you know, not sleeping some nights, you know, seeing how people really hate other races.

28:40Like, I've never experienced that and been in the middle of it in my life. So to see that, it opened my mind to a lot of things. So I'm willing to understand people and ask questions. And I don't think if I would have went through that situation and seen all the pain and people hurt and being in 29 states on my own dime, giving this to neighborhoods that I'm not from and to see how much we need stuff. I'm open to learning and everything involving politics now. So I credit that to him and I credit that to the situations that I'm able to experience. And I just think this is a marathon and not a sprint.

29:14And you guys know that. And I think the reason why I jumped in and obviously that we knew that there was going to be a ton of people who were voiceless. But then also becoming a father, you know, you always want the best for your kids. And at one point, I'm not going to be here to guide them and do everything. So I wanted to try to be a part of something and understanding the power of our platforms. platforms. I mean, we have athletes low key run every aspect, whether it be fashion. You know, our opinions are heavy. We've got not necessarily arguments, but definitely disagreements because I'm just like, you know, I feel like what he just said.

29:46I was just like, there's so many people that feel like you. So if you would come out and explain that, I think people will kind of say, okay, I get why you don't. But now that he's willing to listen, I think it's huge. So I never disagree. We disagree for about a good week. Yeah. He was mad. But we love it. It was a healthy conversation. I would be checking on him, just understanding, you know, what he was going through with the George Floyd stuff and just understanding to be able to embrace the opportunity and, you know, being a leader on the basketball court is one thing, but, you know, this guy led the biggest protest the world's ever seen.

30:14You know what I mean? So to understand and be able to galvanize that and carry that momentum to the next level. What it was, as I'm always, I've always been a team guy. You know, you talk about principles you learn in AAU that you don't learn anymore. You learn, I think if it's taught the right way. You learn so much stuff from team sports. So I'm always trying to bring people in and understand that the fist is stronger than the finger. The most important thing on the court for us at the time is to be able to be focused because no matter how crazy the world is, we're paid a lot of money to do our jobs.

30:42And there's no excuse whether your mom dies, your kid's sick. None of that matters when you're on the basketball court. So again, that's why I respect, I may not like, but I respect everyone's decision whether they want to use their platform or not because it's a lot. You know what I mean? And I even feel today not playing. I'm just like, every day I look on social media like, this stuff is heavy. You know, I think growing up, we become numb to so much stuff. So like, you know, we see family members can't afford medicine and die. We see friends, accidental murders and stuff so much growing up.

31:14So when you get to the point where you're having success and you're able to change your family lives, like you kind of come numb to the stuff that you grew up seeing and that's not right. You know what I'm saying? You got to go back and try to help, you know, somebody else and so they won't go through the same situations you've been through growing up. So, you know, a lot of kids don't see it because a lot of these kids in the NBA, they didn't struggle. You know, a lot of them didn't struggle. And that's new now, right? Yeah, that's a new wave. Talk about that a little bit more. A lot of kids grew up, I grew up on food stamps and drugs and violence.

31:44Like my kids grew up behind gates in private schools. You know what I mean? So these kids don't have, I don't think a lot of them really know their why. you know because everything has been these kids now we're getting more money in high school and college than some guys are getting in the nba so it's just like where's the grind we had to grind to get to a certain level or grind to get a certain amount of money and now thanks to it because we've always talked about athletes should be paid but these kids are getting paid a lot earlier and they're getting a lot of money so where does that where's their mindset at what is their again what is their why so um it's just a different time now and i'm happy for all these kids because we busted our asses to make sure this is the way they got to grow up you know i I mean, again, to his point, we don't want our kids.

32:23I don't want the kids. My kids are struggling with the racism and the food stamps and living with family and family them with us. Like I work my butt off so they didn't have to do that. But at the same time, how do you instill those qualities in your kids to understand that, hey, this is not the, you know, we're blessed. This is no, we're not the richest family, but we're comfortable enough to know that the rest of the world may not see this or live like this. That's why I give him credit. I like he's done, done a great job of changing the trajectory of his kids life. But you wouldn't know, you know, they're very down to earth.

32:51They're very hungry. They're good boys. So they don't carry themselves like we've been living a great life. They're very humble. And when you're a parent that can come from the struggle and change their life, but also instill that into the kids, I think that'd be the best ones to have the best in both worlds. Because you're going to deal with some stuff in life that you don't have the blueprint for. And you're going to have to figure it out, you know, on the fly. So, I mean, that's just light. But I like the fact that what he said, because you want to change your kid's life, but you still want those to have the morals that we grew up with.

33:18We're saying, yes, ma 'am, open doors. A lot of kids don't do those little things no more, holding doors for the elders and stuff like that. So if you can instill those morals into your kids, but also understand they're still blessed, I think that'd be the best kids. How do you do that? How are you all doing that? I think parenting, I think when we grew up, and I'm 45, it was a dictatorship. I mean, what my parents said went, period. You know what I mean? And if you talk back, you were going to meet the consequences. I think now it has to be, we have to meet in the middle. I think it's more of a conversation now because of the internet and because they have access to so much stuff at a younger age and they're hearing different voices and different opinions and seeing stuff we may not know they're seeing at a certain age.

33:59So with me, particularly when my twins are 16 and I have a six-year-old and I have an 11-month-old. So it was always for me leaving little breadcrumbs knowing that I'm going to have to cross this bridge eventually. And then it was just kind of leaving breadcrumbs with girlfriends and holding hands and hugging and then kissing. And I was thankful and they're probably going to get mad at me. But when they're, when the boys were about to start having sex like that, I think we're close. You know, can we, and so I, I, I knew I did something right to know that my sons felt comfortable enough. And I was like, did you tell your mom?

34:30They're like, no, we can't tell mom. You know what I mean? So they felt comfortable enough to come to me to ask something that I hid from my parents. And I'm sure 90 % of the kids would hide from their parents is, you know, we're about to step into a whole new space of girlfriends and sex and that kind of stuff. So to answer your question, I just think it's more of bringing our old school morals and discipline and meeting them halfway understanding with this generation and this culture is like, because the last thing you want to do, and I credit my kids a lot, especially being in this media space is being old and outdated in your ways because you get attacked for that these days.

35:03And that kind of thinking doesn't elevate at all. So finding that old school discipline and morals and understanding and meeting with this new generation of just life is at the palm of their hands. And you can do that way earlier than you think with kids. You know, you can't use big words. You can't use examples that don't make sense to them. But if we sort of fully see children as people and not as our little mini-me's or people who are just here for our entertainment and our comfort, but as humans in the room who have real legitimate questions. I mean, I always say our kids have a lot of questions because the only thing they have to do in life is watch us.

35:46They ain't working. They don't have worries. They're watching everything we do, everything we say. Absolutely. And if we don't explain ourselves to them, if we think, oh, you're too young to understand, you're automatically cutting, you're taking away their credit. I think for me, watching my mom made me a great parent. My dad stayed five minutes away from me. He's gone now, but he never was around. My mom worked from six in the morning. You know those graveyard shits where your mom go to work at six in the morning, she get up at six in the evening. You don't even see her when you get home from school.

36:17So I seen the dedication that she put, but she also never demeaned my father. She never demeaned him in no type of way. Never spoke bad of him. So when I start having my own kids, you know. And you got a lot of them. I got a lot of them. Do you do? How many kids do you got? 17. Okay. No, I don't have no 17 kids. Okay. I got five girls of my own, one out of marriage, and I got two boys. Matt. No, Matt. You know how he is on the show. I can't do it. So good. It's late for watching. Hey, I'm on my best behavior, but every once in a while I got to poke him a little bit. It wouldn't be him if he don't.

36:54It wouldn't be him. But just learning from her and watching her do the things she did. And as I started having my kids, you know, it's a lot of situations where I could have responded out of emotion. Imagine being at your child's game. The mother pausing him so much that all his teammates are coming to talk to you, but your son ignores you. So I'm leaving games crying because I don't know how to respond. But seeing my mom not demeaning my daddy, get up every day and do what she had to do for us, That showed me, look, just continue to do your part. It'll work out, work yourself out, you know, and eventually did.

37:29But if I wouldn't have known that, if I would have seen such a strong woman raising us and working hard for us every day. Now you guys, so both of your careers are kind of mirrored, right? You had to really overcome obstacles to get to where you were. Then you get to where you are and you got to overcome even more obstacles. And I would be interested in hearing how are you helping your kids understand those obstacles and then overcoming their own? Because like you said, we all came up differently than the way we're raising our kids. And I hate being the old guy to say, back in the day. You have to, though.

38:12You have to, though, because they'll never have it as worse as we had. And I think that's the only thing. Like, I tell my sons, your journey is going to be different from mine. Yeah. But you won't have to work as hard as I have. You have your own journey. You have your own ups and downs, your own stuff you're going to go through. But I paved the way from you, a way for you where it can be easy. You know the road. The blueprint. And basically playing basketball, if that's what you want to do. So I've done everything, you know, the good and bad for you to know what not and what to do. So I think that's a blessing to have because we didn't have that.

38:42I never had an NBA player come talk to me as a kid and tell me you can make it and not to do this. So just so I have the experience to give him, I think he's ahead of the curve already. And I also think, too, from a different standpoint, and it's unfortunate, but it's the norm now. It's just broken homes. You know what I mean? I divorced my twin's mom when they were five years old, and we had to learn how to— Mom and my dad's house this weekend, mom's house next weekend. And how can we still bring a village together to let them know we love them and support them. And our love will never waver, although your mom and I aren't together.

39:18Our love for you, you guys are still the apple of both of our eyes. If we're going to do anything. And then, unfortunately, with my second situation, I'm in a similar situation with my 11-month-old and my six-year-old now where their mom and I split up. So, to me, it's really a lot of mental. A whole lot of, we talk sports and we talk, but to me, it's just making sure they're okay. because again, although it's the norm, it's still tough on a child. I mean, I think the divorce rate for professional athletes is like in the 70s. You know what I mean? So again, unfortunately we fell into that statistic, but at the same time, understanding and as the twin, it's night and day that the twins now the twins completely understand.

39:55I get along with my ex and her husband and again, it's a village for them, but it's new to my two youngest. So trying to explain to my six-year-old like what is going on, obviously the baby doesn't know any better, But to explain to my six-year-old that mommy and daddy don't live together no more, unfortunately. But you're still, we're coming on. We're still doing stuff as a family for birthdays, graduations, holidays. We're going to still make it as comfortable as we can because there is no blueprint for broken families. You just got to hope that you keep the kids first and that you can be cordial enough to make sure their childhood is still what it needs to be.

40:27Although we're not together day to day anymore. And I think, again, that part of my story isn't unique. I think it's very common. And to be able to still put the kids first, no matter what you're going through with your ex-husband or ex-wife, I think is always the goal. And it's not as easy as it sounds. I mean, I had some hard times with my twins, with my ex-wife, just trying to get on that page. And thankfully, we're there now. And again, this newer situation with my younger ones has been easier with her. Her and I still communicate constantly and where we're putting the kids. But I know my six-year-old sometimes has issues with it.

41:06You know what I mean? So just making sure that I'm loving on him and communicating with him more as, you're only six, but I'm going to communicate with you as if you're older because I think you understand what's going on. So again, there's no blueprint for this. But being a father is my greatest accomplishment and the thing I love absolute most on this earth. So I got to pour, although the situations didn't work, still pour everything I can into my kids. You've been present from day one for all your kids, and that's where all fathers need to understand. Just be present. It ain't about money. It ain't about money.

41:37It's the time. Make your presence felt in your child's life and match the mask out of it.

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46:00How do you all manage the emotional presence for your children as men? And I know, Matt, in an interview, I heard you say that you hadn't cried in 30 years. That's what we did. I cried. I've always cried a few minutes ago. I cried. I cried. I cried. I can't. Have you cried yet? I haven't. I want to learn. I don't know. You came close when we had him. Yeah, Jason Wilson. Oh, yeah. I hope we can get some off-the-camera time with him because he came close. Yeah, he was special. And I mean, that interview was so special because we didn't even go off any of the—it was just freestyle. Once we started having that real conversation.

46:35And I felt vulnerable and I felt okay with it because I know me sharing my story. There's a ton of people that have similar journeys or have the same issues. Why you can't cry? I don't know. I want to because I know it'll be a great cleansing. But again, I've touched on the emotional side and the emotional intelligence of kids. And again, it's just conversating. You know, one of my twins, this is supposed to be a big summer for him. And he went to a top 100 camp and fractured his ankle. So he had to watch the entire summer. and it's just one, you know, you got a twin brother out there doing his thing and then the other twin is just like, and so one twin, the school, they're starting to talk to one twin and then the other twins like, what about, you know what I mean?

47:14So just again, that emotional and letting them know we still got them and you still have plenty of time to show the world what you can do and this is, you know, this is going to build character and because there's, again, to Jack's point, I mean, their journeys are different and kids run from the grind these days and they transfer and they're jumping all around so I feel like Like, this is going to be, I was like, I promise you, you're going to be better. Do your kids cry? Do they feel? They do, yeah. They're definitely comfortable enough to, you know what I mean? But again, they didn't, you know, for us growing up and, you know, it was probably similar, like, growing up in the age of crying, showing a sign of weaknesses, huh?

47:48What? You know, and mental health is what? Like, mental health just started becoming a conversation maybe five or six years ago. You know, if you cried, you were soft. If you had issues, like, forget your issues, you know? And I was someone to the point where I made it through all the bad stuff. I had to go through. So the mental health, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not letting that hold me back. And then when I started getting counseling and realizing like, hey, some of the stuff from your childhood is a reason why you're not empathetic as you need to be or sympathetic or you put up walls.

48:14It's just like, okay, now I need to go. He said, little Matt, it made me laugh. That's what my counselor says. Like, you know, you got to tap in with little Matt and fix those things that, you know, my parents didn't know that they were doing it wrong, but that sometimes they were doing it wrong and it caused issues as for me as an adult. So again, being very aware of the surroundings and the environment, I put my kids in considering that I'm into, unfortunately, failed situations, but I have kids in those situations. So how do you stay on top of it mentally and from the loving side of it as well?

48:43I mean, failure isn't a bad thing for kids to see in their parents. I mean, that's something that Barack and I try to remember all the time. It's like, you know, seeing the vulnerability, seeing the fear, it kind of gives, I found them permission to have those same emotions. Like we think we're being strong for our kids. We think we're, you know, shielding them. But, you know, when my girls perk up, it's when we talk about failure, right? And to see two parents who have succeeded at a certain level, we have to make it a point, right? Because they weren't around when we were grinding, struggling, when he lost congressional bid, when I failed the bar the first time, when we had an argument.

49:36They were too young for that. So it becomes even more important for us to take them down those emotional paths. Because kids like ours, they have so much support, but they have so much pressure. And it's not from the outside world. It's internal. It's like, my dad is so awesome. I don't want to disappoint them. They're having those little thoughts in their heads, right? And we have to be really, really deliberate about breaking that stuff down for them, giving them permission, making failure. That's part of the journey. Learn from it. So look at us. But also, too, I think when you're young, you think the road to success and whatever success that is for you is like this.

50:23That's right. And it's the furthest thing from the truth. But as you get older, you start to see like, hey, that failure or that mishap is going to help me get back on track. But again, and that's why I said that earlier, like protecting your kids too much to me is you're going to set them up once they're free and have to really fend for this world. Like if they haven't seen anything, they're going to have a hard time finding who they are as adults. We had to be so deliberate about that, right? Because our girls had Secret Service agents until Malia went to college, which we were thrilled about in the teen years.

50:54Brock was like, I'm going to get reelected just so that my girls have Secret Service in the teen years. You ain't sneaking off and doing nothing. You ain't supposed to be doing it. Nobody's sneaking, doing anything. But at the same time, I had to give them enough rope to sneak. Because just like you, it's like you got to learn what trouble is before you run into it. You got to have the baby trouble. The trouble of being at the wrong party at the wrong time. You got to learn how to drive. You got to get a ticket. You got to get through an airport by yourself. You have to have the trouble where the ramifications aren't big enough to ruin your life.

51:31because a lot of people don't get out and make it out of those situations. And also, I wanted them to have some of those experiences when they were coming home to me, right? So you can still talk through it and work through it. We can talk through it, right? So you guys have such deep wisdom when it comes to fatherhood. How has that impacted your love lives? What have you, how have you grown? Oh, here you go. Here you go, fellas. You know, because there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of. With me, I'm Michelle. I'm learning. I'm learning daily. You didn't let me fill in that blank. Yeah, I'm learning daily.

52:04Me too. And, you know, it's really within myself and understanding. Because I think we get such a jaded point of view being professional athletes. For however long you're a professional athlete, like, and then for us to be professional athletes and then still jump right on big TV and still kind of keep, you know, we were both, I mean, he was a better scorer than me and accolades on scoring. but we were both somewhat role players, but we were able to transition into this media space and somewhat be stars and kind of trendsetters in this space. So I think as athletes, you have such a false sense of just reality at times and being able to look yourself in the mirror and like, hey, all this drama here and you want to point the finger at other people, you need to point it at yourself first.

52:48Being able to look at the mirror and understand where your faults were and what I could have did better. Even if it wasn't all the way my fault, what could I have did better? So really just a lot of reflection. I'm at a real reflective point of my life right now, just kind of understanding, trying to build a better relationship with God because I know all that stuff is going to help me be better in every field. And so again, I'm currently single and again, not necessarily looking for anything because I think right now more, it's just like, I got to get little Matt all the way together and that's going to help grown Matt be a better man, father, owner, friend, and business partner.

53:19What if I tell you if you cried once, you'd find the love of your life? I can't wait to be there because it's going to help me too. I need it. I need it. You can do it. You got to find it. It'll come. You're supposed to. When your boys, it's going to come from your boys. Because I would, you know, it's funny you said that. I'm just thinking there's, there'll be 17 and I only have another year and a half with them and they're gone. When they're gone, that might be the time. So when he drives them to college, you know, I'll be in. Go with them. Well, we had one of those moments with Barack when we dropped Malia off because we still did because we tried to do all the normal stuff, even as president.

53:58Right. You know, so she had to go a day earlier so that the presidential motorcade, we could go on campus, do the thing, you know, take her boxes up because I was like, we are not farming that out. You know, she can't even home. Right. So, you know, so we're up there. The roommate's parents got to come early. And so we're doing all the college stuff. I'm making her bed because whenever they went to camp or somewhere, I said, I'll make your bed once and I'll make it really neat and nice. And that's it. Got her room all set up. And you could tell Barack was totally clueless. He didn't know where to be.

54:36We gave him a lamp from Ikea and said, put it together. Here, you take this box. You put it together. There was nothing to put together, but he was over there with his lamp for like two hours. And then came time. We took her to lunch at some restaurant, and then we had to leave. We had to get in this motorcade and leave the baby behind, you know, and to watch her standing at that restaurant, waving goodbye. So I'm crying. Barack gets in the car. You know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade. You know, we're a little quiet. and I hear this. That was literally the sign. I had to look over and be like, the agents are like, sir, are you okay?

55:23And he's like, it's like, man, just do it. Just cry. Let it go. Make it happen. But it was like, there was just a deep kind of, you know, leaving your kids in a place, you know, and saying that's it. But yeah, I want to ride to bed. You want to ride with me to drop off to college? I want to ride to drop off. By the way, guys, Michelle's going to be joining us today. So be on your best to have you. It's like, I'm here. I'm here. I'll make your bed while your father cries over the lamp. I'm looking forward to it. Again, I don't know what it is. I just feel like I lost my mom. That's how he and I became close.

56:03I lost my mom in 2007. And I had to be the rock for the family. My dad was miserable. My dad was lost. My sister was hurt. Everyone wasn't, but I had to, like, I played a game the next day. You know what I mean? I've always kind of had to be, like, no matter who it was, I had to be the rock for everyone else. And it's just like, there's times where I'm hurt, but it's just like, it won't, how do you release it? So I'm hoping. Have you picked people that you can let go with? I'm getting back to the question of relationships. And, Stephen, you haven't said it. I'm ready to answer that. I just don't want to interrupt.

56:34Yeah, go ahead. Well, with me, I just, I've made a lot of mistakes. I've always held myself accountable. That's my biggest thing. But one thing I've always did, I've always kept my heart in the right place and I've always lived my life to show God I deserve everything he blessed me with. So I have a big heart. So even when people do me bad, if I was done bad in relationships, I've always did what I was supposed to do to make sure the other person, you know, was taken care of, was right. So I don't feel bad about any situation I've been in because I've always left that person better leaving me than when they came with me.

57:08So just experiencing me being accountable. I held myself accountable for everything. So I don't regret anything. I've done what I was supposed to do. I've been a father. I've been a friend. I've been the guy when I was treated like crap and still stood up and provided for people when they didn't deserve it. So it's just being able to look yourself in the mirror, good or bad. I've been one of those guys I came up with saying I make love to pressure. Yeah. So nothing nothing will make me become a bad person, become a bad human being. My heart is always in the right place. So I think that's how I handle every situation.

57:52Welcome back to IMO, everybody. We're in October now. And boy, the air is changing. The leaves are doing their thing and the pace is starting to really pick up. And I was just sitting here thinking about the holiday rush and it's coming. And also, I started thinking about how do you use this time of year to prepare your business for the holidays? And what's the one thing you're doing now that will pay off later? For me, that one thing is definitely making sure that I'm using Shopify. I mean, look, the holiday season is busy enough. You need to focus on your family, your friends, your hot cider, the things that actually matter.

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1:00:01You know, this time of year reminds me of growing up on the south side of Chicago with my sister Michelle and the comfort meals we would eat during the fall. You know, when the big fall recipes start coming out, you also have to worry about the mess they make. But you know what's changed the game for my family is this amazing little machine called Mill. You just drop in those apple cores and pumpkin peels, the dinner scraps, and Mill automatically transforms them overnight. It's completely odorless and no fruit flies. Mill holds weeks of food scraps and turns them into these nutrient-rich grounds.

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1:01:17And you both are really powerful examples of building a life beyond a very long, prosperous, successful set of careers. talk about how you even are able to wrap your heads around the next level of success without holding on too much to not being able to do the thing that made you you. That's a whole mental challenge right there. We see it. We see people not being able to walk away from their sport, not because they haven't achieved everything, but it almost feels like you're scared. You haven't thought as much, as great as you are, it is clear that you haven't thought about anything. What's next?

1:02:07You guys have managed that pretty doggone well. I think for me, I took pride in being a team player while I was playing. So after basketball, you know, you never know what's going to happen or what's going to go. But I think for me, being a solid guy, being a good friend to a lot of different people, good things happen for you. I had no idea what was going to happen after basketball, to be honest. No idea. But I think, like I said, my relationship with Matt and building, just having an opportunity of the podcast is taking us to spaces that I never even believed. So for me, good things always happen to me because I wake up every day to show God I deserve whatever that's coming in my life.

1:02:51I'm getting ready for it. I'm not waiting until my blessing comes. I'm getting ready for it. I live my life that way. And he'll tell you, I'm the biggest protector out of all our friends. I jump in front of everything for everybody. I'm loyal to a fault. But God continues to bless me because I love hard and I love my people hard. So the only reason I'm in this position is because I'm a good teammate. I have a great team around me. I would never take credit for where I'm at in my life today and the success we have. And I got a great team and a great group of people that we treat each other like family and we respect each other.

1:03:19If you can't be a good teammate, if you can't learn how to respect people and treat people how you want to be treated, you're not going to have any success, especially as a basketball player. Because after basketball, they already come into you with expecting you to know everything and offer your name. Well, a lot of us don't know anything but basketball. I don't know. My journey has been crazy fun because, I mean, I think there was such a, not a misconception, because I think a reputation earned, whether good or bad. And I had a borderline reputation. I was a habitual line stepper in the NBA.

1:03:54But I was also at the same time understanding that this isn't going to last forever. I just look at myself as being so lucky that I played 14 years, got paid for 16 years to put a ball in a hoop. That's a dream. You want to call that a job? To me, that's a dream. And then now I'm getting paid great money to talk and inspire and motivate and educate and talk trash and have fun. So to me, I don't feel like I've ever worked a day in my life. You know what I mean? I love hearing that. And, you know, we have a question from our listener. But before we get to the question, I would love it if you would talk to our listeners about what's really good about the NBA, but also what's really hard about it.

1:04:40Because I don't think I don't hear people talking about it. Anything. It sounds like a wonderful fantasy. It always sounds like a wonderful thing. But having now worked in the front office of a couple of teams, I've seen behind the curtain. And I would love for you to share your thoughts on what's really, really hard. I'll just say two things. Two, I mean, one, everybody don't know how to be a professional. You have to learn. It's not just about basketball once you get there. I was blessed to have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, all those guys in my early years because I learned how to be a professional.

1:05:14I watched these guys. A lot of these kids have no, there's no vets in the game. So they're not taught how to be a professional. For me, that's really it. And being a professional. And the politics side. On and off the court. Yeah, but you got to learn how to deal with the politics too. It's a lot of times I should have made the All-Star Games. I didn't make it because of a guy who wasn't in trouble. He wasn't better than me, but he just wasn't in trouble. And he made it. So you got to learn how to deal with the politics too in the NBA. That's a big part of it. Just know, first and foremost, it's a business.

1:05:42And you're very lucky to be a part of that business. And you got to keep the first thing first. And I give professional athletes today a lot of credit. And not that we're, I mean, I'm eight years removed, but in those eight years, the game has changed so much and the world has changed so much. Like there's so much outside distraction now. On top of the money these kids are getting, I mean, these kids are getting, they're making$80 million a year. And just from this, but on top of all the, you know what I mean? So it's just like, it's kind of just understanding, keeping the first thing first, knowing that it's a business, knowing that, you know, the average MBA career is three and a half years.

1:06:13You know what I mean? So what's going to set you apart? And I said earlier, when you get there, it's 10 % physical and 90 % mental. So how are you carrying yourself and understanding now from the second we had? I couldn't imagine if I had cameras on me at UCLA. I probably wouldn't be here or even early in my career because we were just off the chain. We didn't know until we got around vets. And now the game, the NBA desperately, and I'm sure a lot of sports, it's getting younger and younger. So it's not the blind, but almost the blind, leading the blind. When we came in the league, there was 38, 39, 40-year-olds smoking cigarettes in the locker room.

1:06:45But just, hey, let's go buy your first sets of suits. you know let's stay away from them those women you know let's not waste your money on there's there's none of that in the game anymore so i mean what there's so much given a lot is a lot is is expected and just you got to keep the first thing first in today's because there's just so many people with the money and with the exposure now of athletes there's so many different distractions and so many people grabbing at you but when it's gone it's gone you know when it's gone it's gone so understand it and to enjoy the journey i know as athletes we're always next game we lost last night or I had 30 last night, but tonight we play.

1:07:19Enjoy the ride because the ride goes so fast. And if you don't sit back and appreciate the ups and downs, the goods and bads while you're there, when you're done, you're going to be like, damn, I wish I would have. I wish I would have. I wish I would have. So it's a business. Keep the first thing first and enjoy the journey. So we've got a question from Tony in New York. What's up, Tony? I grew up with humble beginnings in Baltimore. And today I find myself in a very different place. I'm successful, married, and raising a mixed-race child in suburbia. As a Black father, I carry the weight of my own lived experiences.

1:07:55I often find myself wrestling with how much of that to pass on to my son. Recently, his daycare flagged him for aggressive behavior, and it hit a nerve. I want to raise a strong, confident Black boy who understands his value. But I also know that the world doesn't always give our children the benefit of the doubt. I feel a tension between wanting to protect him by teaching him restraint and caution and not wanting to suppress his autonomy or spirit in the process. So my question is, how do you raise a child in a new reality without letting your old reality shape too much of their world? Like, how do you guide them with wisdom born of struggle without projecting your fears that may no longer serve them?

1:08:48Ooh, Tony. Great question, Tony. Great question. And I can tell, by the way, that that's my favorite group. I can tell, by the way, that the question, he wrote the question that he is very aware of just what's going on. Both sides. He's with both sides. And I would say being a biracial man, it was different for me because it wasn't the norm. growing up. But I think now, thankfully, the world is becoming more of a melting pot, and it's more accepted. And I had the same thoughts as the twins were coming up. KK tried to kill me. I had to move and all this kind of stuff. So, do I pour that trauma into my kids?

1:09:30Do I not make them aware of it? Do they learn about it? So, luckily, we live in a society today where I feel like, you know, what is it? Interracial or whatever. Biracial children are more of the norm. So I just think it's a fine line. And I don't think this is a blatant answer. I think it's a situation by situation circumstance where you have to, you know, you take individual situations and break them down because you're going to come across racism at some point. And you don't want to throw so much fear in them that they start hating other people, but you also want them to be naive and understand like, hey, there are some people that were grown and raised a different way that we don't necessarily agree with.

1:10:09And they were taught hate instead of love and keep them in their place. But I'm also a firm believer, like don't put your hands on me. Don't put your hands on my children. You know what I mean? I'm for peace until you cross that line. So you always have to be able to protect yourself and defend yourself. But hopefully, you teach them the right way to have a broader understanding of what this crazy world is about. And they approach those situations with confidence first and foremost and an understanding. I started something during the George Floyd time, something that says love for all who have love for all.

1:10:42And I always put every hand, every color emoji. But at the same time, you want to let you, especially a black young man, you want to let him know who he is, but also let him know that you don't need to demean the next race to make yourself look better. I think that's what a lot of races feel like. In order to make yourself look better, you have to demean the next. And that's something we don't do on our show. A lot of shows do that. Find something to talk about, demean somebody, and try to go viral. We've never done that. so I've always taught that to my kids like know who you are first because once you know who you are can't nobody knock you off your rock can't nobody make you say something or do something that you'll regret because you know who you are first second understand that people are going to say things but you never have to demean someone to make yourself look better I think the world is real caught up in that I'm going to make him look bad so I can look not I've always taught it to my kids so I've been grateful to that my kids been growing up a lot around the different races so they understand I grew up a lot around the Mexicans.

1:11:37My best friend is Jewish. So Josh Pastner was a coach at UNLV. So I think just the way I live my life, that kind of knocked that stigma off my kids. But at the same time, I let them know who they are. Because when you are a young black man, whether you understand it or not, you're going to be treated differently. You're going to be looked at differently. And a lot is going to be harder for you than the next. That's just how it is as a black man. That's just how it is. And once they understand that, then they'll be willing to embrace it and don't look at it as starting behind. That's a great point.

1:12:07I mean, so I've got a son who's fully black, older, 33, and then I've got two younger sons who are biracial. And I've always thought, and even with my daughter, who's black, talking about, communicating about race early. Helping them understand that it's just, life's not fair right now. Wasn't fair when we were coming up, and it's not fair now. It's better now, but it's not fair. You're going to be looked upon a certain way because you're black. And I think having that discussion early helped them prepare for things as they come in. And we just try and talk about it. We try and talk our way through.

1:12:54And to Tony's point, I was always worried about my kids being mislabeled as overaggressive because they were black. And so we talked about when you're in a situation, you have to be aware that some people may think you're overaggressive. And that doesn't mean change who you are, but just be aware. Read the room. Read the room. That's a great one. Read the room. Read the room. because there are going to be times, because my mom always talked about this. She always feels like she made me too non-aggressive and made her over-aggressive. And that was the times back in the 60s and 70s. So I don't want them to lose their ability to have a little edge about them.

1:13:47But I also want them to be aware that if you show that edge, you're going to get profiled. I just feel, again, I feel like it's an unfortunate situation, but black and brown parents have different conversations than the rest of the world. Because, again, as I mentioned, like race is just a part of, hey, this is how you're splitting. This is just another hurdle we're going to have to have. You know, this is not a conversation that, you know, white families have to worry about police discrimination and people looking at them a certain way because it's just not. So, again, that's why when I initially asked the question, you take this in stride as well.

1:14:22This is just another teaching point. And again, it's something that they're going to face at some point and just make sure they're prepared and ready for it. One other thing I would just add to Tony is, and how old was his son or is his son, did he say? Didn't say. But when it comes to school, because that's something we've talked about. You know, schools are, you know, the curriculum hasn't been thoughtful in about 100 ,000 years, right? I mean, it's not keeping up with the modern child and is definitely not thinking about who boys are. So a lot of the curriculum, how the day is structured doesn't work for boys.

1:15:00You know, boys need to be moving, thinking. Girls are different, right? But everybody is taught the same. And I'm sure that aggressive label at school, which you hear that a lot among schools labeling black kids, kids of color early. That is a dilemma. Because once you get tracked or marked, then, you know, so I would say to Tony, then that means that as a parent, you got to be involved in school, you know, because you can talk to your kid till they're blue in the face. That's important. But it is important, especially if you have a Black son, for them to know you and to know that I will come up there and I will come up there in a proper way.

1:15:45But this black boy, mixed boy, has someone looking out for him. And I think that that becomes even more critical for boys, for mixed race boys, for black boys. That parents, you can love your son, but especially when they're young and they haven't developed their own voice. That's what being an involved parent is. And for a father to be involved, that's a big deal. So that may mean go to some of these field trips, you know, go to a, make sure you go to all, because Barack went to every parent-teacher conference their entire life in the White House, you name it. He was going to go. Motorcade, motorcycles, SWAT men.

1:16:30We're there. Everybody, we were there. Shutting down Mass Avenue, getting to this parent-teacher conference. That means a lot, by the way. That means a lot. It means a lot. It meant a lot to the girls, but it said something to the school, you know. It's like, it's not just me. But their father knows what's going on. So you guys are engaged fathers, which is beautiful. Being engaged in that school structure, just knowing, you know, that doesn't mean you want to have to go up to the school and tear stuff up. And it's just like. But I will if I need to. I will. And that's implied in my presence. Yeah.

1:17:07You know, one thing I will say. Let me say this. I know exactly what you mean. My daughter's going to sixth grade, but since she's been in kindergarten, I've been going to her school. I put her some Instagram. Don't let daddy come. Don't let daddy come. Don't let daddy come. But I'm not going there to be famous, but I'm letting you know, this child here is love. That's right. And her daddy's going to be here. That's right. You know what I mean? And also, too, one more thing. I think I'm okay with aggression because I think you can learn to tone that back. But I would rather be aggressive than have my child be walked over and disrespected and made fun of.

1:17:39Like I said, we can tune like aggressiveness in sports. We can tune that back. But if you don't have that in you, that's hard to teach. So I'm okay with aggressiveness as long as it's following the rules because that's something you can form and structure and pull back if you need to. But on the flip side, if you're someone that just gets walked over, that's going to make me go crazy. Yeah, and that makes me want to address part of the question that Tony said, that he was worried that he was imposing his lived experience on the kid. And what I would say to Tony, embrace your lived experience because that's going to help little Tony later in life.

1:18:21Because it is powerful to know that your parent has gone through something similar and made it out. Experience is the best teaching. That's right. It's absolutely. Absolutely. And so. Good question. Yeah. Great question. Shout out to Tony, man. Yeah. Thank you for that. Good luck to you and your son. Yeah, and the fact that he's asking the question means he's involved. He cares, yeah. We need more fathers like that. And I think that's, you know, you guys are modeling that. I mean, I love the way you talk about your kids, how you are, you know, you're not bystander parents. That you are actively thinking about how to raise them.

1:19:01And that is not, that's not the mother's job exclusively. You know, it really matters. And you've seen it in a broken home or not, divorced or whatever. Kids can understand that. It didn't work out, right? Things don't work out. People don't get along sometimes, you know, but that doesn't mean that you're not present. That doesn't mean you get scared away and money shouldn't dictate that. You know, kids do not care about how much money you have. I don't care if you are unemployed, whether you were in jail once before, whether you were on crack at some point, Kids still want to see you in their lives just trying.

1:19:41And I think that you guys model that in the way that you are actively trying to think about the words you say, how you show up in your kids' lives. And I think it's important for our listeners to see that up close from some all the smoke athletes. Folks who could tell like it is, still be engaged in sports. still know a lot about a lot of things and still show up as good men and good fathers. So we are grateful. Keep doing what you're doing, guys. Thank you. You got a couple fans here. Thank you for taking the time. It's an honor to be here. It's an honor to be here. It's an honor to be here.

1:20:37Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions? Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?

1:21:24Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else, but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.

1:22:13For more great advice, search for Happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.