"We Can't Be Who We Can't See" with Michele Norris

0:00The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and Intuit. I am so happy to be here. One of the things we love about Michelle Obama is that she brings people together. And we are all here together looking sparkly and happy because we are here to spend an evening with our forever First Lady.

0:31So let us wait no further. Let us bring her out here and let's show her a big, huge, warm welcome from my sister friend, Michelle Obama.

0:46Hi, everyone. It's Michelle. It's been a while since this podcast first came out, a whole year actually. And a lot has happened since then for all of us. We've had good days and bad days and lots of good and bad days. We felt fear and anxiety, but also community and love. In other words, we've lived a whole lot of life. And what I keep hearing from people I meet is that they're still looking for new and creative ways to manage everything life throws their way. Now, I don't have all the answers. Believe me, if I did, I'd tell you. But I do know what is working for me. and I hope that some of it will work for you too.

1:36That's why I wrote The Light We Carry and that's why I'm thrilled to announce that it will be coming out in paperback soon. And to help celebrate, I'm also releasing a couple of bonus episodes of this podcast that I've never shared before, including this one with my dear friend, Michelle Norris. Michelle is also a world-class journalist, author of the new New York Times bestselling book, Our Hidden Conversations, and host of the wonderful podcast, Your Mama's Kitchen, which you can find on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. With Michelle, I never have to look or feel or act a certain way.

2:17I can just be myself. In this episode, we talk about friendship, mentorship, relationships, and so much more. I hope you can feel the love and that you have as much fun listening as we did recording it.

2:37I love that you use the phrase partnering well, because you're not talking necessarily about marrying well, about finding a partner in life. And you talk about it not being 50-50, and that marriage is never 50-50, which is, you know, information that I think many of us need to hear because you go into it thinking, eeny, meeny, miny, moe, paper, scissor, rock. You know, we're going to... You do one thing, I do one thing. It's always going to be fair. No, it's not. We need to figure this out. Sometimes you won't like him. You know, and that's just... And sometimes you... You will love him, but you might not like him.

3:13That's also one of those little... Or you might love her or might not like her. One of those little things we don't say about marriage. There will be long periods of time when you won't like them. Long, long periods. Long, long, long. Long periods of time. You know, you come home and you realize it's not going to be 50-50 unless you can... And you don't even want it to be 50-50. There was this time, I haven't told this story, Barack tells it all the time, but I went on a business trip. Malia was, was Sasha born yet? But Malia, Barack was in charge. Malia had to go to ballet. and I of course this is where my kitchen table because the thing was is that even when Barack was on his own he was never on his own because my kitchen table be like girl we got you you know and so he was like no I can get her to ballet um so he tries to fix her hair you know ballet the tutu and the little puff that's all she had it was just a poof all you had to do was gather gather and tie, gather and tie.

4:19Why can't you do that? You know? And he was, he was like, I don't know what to do with this. It's like gather and tie, dude, brush, gather, tie, hold it all together. You, you know, you, you play basketball, you're coordinated, you know, you can do all these things. You talk, give speeches, you can't gather and tie a poof. so he he he does the best he can and he finishes and malia's old enough to talk and this is so malia malia he looks at her and says you know how is it and he's like oh daddy this is great so he takes her to ballet she walked into the parent area where my kitchen table girlfriends come over he sends her over to one of the mothers who says come here sweetie he overhears this he says she she she asked Malia you want me to do your hair and he said she said oh my god yes this is a disaster more after the break that's an example though of how the kitchen table watches out for each other absolutely one of the things I appreciate is when you have a circle the other people in your life benefit also.

5:34So my husband has benefited from our friendship, our kitchen table, because I come home a little more calm. But our kids benefit. Men, you want us to have our kitchen tables. You really do. So we don't go off on you. And you all should have yours too. Yes. Men, talk. Make some friends, men. And when you do, talk about something. how many times do they get together and i come back golf they play golf for hours and it's like how's asia and barack is like uh she seems fine i talked to you and it's like well this happened and that happened i was like what are y 'all talking about if you're not even talking about kids have some friends and talk about something can you guys get that together it's like because everyone will benefit from that But as one of the people who entered the circle later, I had to deal with, I had to decode fear for myself.

6:36In part because, you know, making new friends, you have to make yourself vulnerable. Entering a friendship with Michelle Obama means that you have to move a lot. And you had these boot camps that you invited us to be a part of. And one of the things I didn't tell you, I'm telling you first on stage in front of a couple thousand people. Okay, what have you been hiding? When we first went to boot camp, I would go to the little cabin. We were at Camp David, and we stayed in these cozy little cabins. And I would go, and I would get under the covers, and I was crying. Oh, I made my friends cry. Because it was really hard.

7:12And I was like, the phone, the cell service doesn't work up there. Can't tell you where it is. But the cell service, I was like trying to call home. Come get me. Aw. You know, can I just walk down the hill? You can make my kitchen table sound horrible. You can meet me at the Wawa, you know, which is like our 7-Eleven in that part of the world. Can you just come get me? And I got really, do you remember the first time I went? I got really sick. Yeah. And it was my body saying, uh-uh, you're not making me walk up that hill. You can give that hill a name. You call the hill Bertha? It was Bertha. It was a big hill.

7:44And I thought you were trying to kill me, but what I realized is what friendship will do for you. But you were trying to help me find my best self. Yes. And that was something that I would not do on your own. So when we talk about friendship, I raise this because it's not always daisies and, you know, Chardonnay. You know, sometimes your friends, although Chardonnay does, you know, make things go down easier sometimes. But your friends also tell you what you need to hear. And they push you. And so I appreciate that because what you did for the nation and pushing us to get moving, you pushed your friends to get moving also.

8:25And I am certain that it has added years to my life. And I'm certain that it is. Well, you went from crying in the cabin to now you have a trainer. And how many days a week do you work out? At least two. And you play tennis. Three times a week. And so here's what I know about friendship. It is. It's a thing, especially we as women. We we aren't used to pushing ourselves. I think the next generation behind us now that being a female athlete is now a cool thing. It wasn't when we were growing up. There are more opportunities for girls to play sports. There's a whole generation of us where we weren't encouraged to use our bodies to sweat.

9:07Oh, no. They used to call it glowing. Yeah. Right. We didn't sweat. We glow. Right. You were trying to get out of physical fitness, right? Because being a strong athletic girl, it wasn't cool. Maybe you could be a cheerleader, but there were no role models for girls. There were no Serenas, right? There was no WNBA. And so as a result, our generation of women, we don't know what it feels like to physically push ourselves. And I think we missed something because of that we're we're intimidated by physical fitness in a way that shouldn't and so what our boot camps were is like they were a series of it it was hard it was it was three workouts a day it was really hard it was there was a trainer we were we had the marines we'd be boxing we did a little bit of everything we played we played games we played dodgeball we did relays You don't want to play dodgeball with Michelle Obama.

10:05Well, everyone was competitive after, but just playing and running and laughing, it's another thing that gets you out of your worry. It shuts your brain off because you didn't have time to think about work or worry about the kids because you were like, there's the workout after lunch. Can I do it? And guess what? Everybody did. I want my kitchen table to be alive and healthy. I want us to understand that we can be smart and strong. I wanted us to model that for our girls. Because all of us have daughters. And all of our daughters move. All of our daughters eat right. They think about health as part of their way of being.

10:48And I think it's because we modeled that for them. So I'm sorry.

10:57I'm better for it. Oh, it was hard. It was hard. You talk about opening yourself up to friendship. The other thing I will say is that when you do that, we have daughters, we have sons. I have sons also, two sons. But I don't know if you remember this. When you first, you talk about making yourself vulnerable. When we first, we went to dinner early on at your house. And do you remember the time that Norris went missing in the house? Do you remember this? He was playing hide and seek. You mean in the White House? No, we were up and we were vacationing and you invited us to dinner. And for 15 minutes, he was like missing.

11:36He was hiding. I don't remember that. And I thought, they're never inviting us back. See, that's the other thing is when your friends are the president, the first lady, you're sweating stuff that we're like, of course, they broke it. They don't know what's going on, which is why I'm grateful that people put up with what it was like to make friends with us in the heat of that. That wasn't an easy feat. But I share all that because it's if we get back to it as a tool, you know, I would just strongly encourage all of us to prioritize friendship. It doesn't happen on its own. And it's got to be up there on the list of things.

12:15And even when you have kids and a relationship, let me tell you, kids are gone before you know it. they leave fast too. They take up all the oxygen in your life and then they leave. It's like, bye, I'm done with you now. And it happens soon. It's like, I have Friday, I have a party. That's like, but we, we used to spend Friday. So I can't be with you any longer. This relation, they break up with you so fast and take your money and take your money. They make you pay for leaving them, for leaving you. So that's going to happen so fast. And we have so much life left to live. And we are social beings.

12:58Even though we've gotten used to the comfort of being in our own words, there's a comfort there. You can easily slip into it. As much as I like people, I like being alone. I like when Barack is traveling I have the remote to myself you know that just sort of feeling of no one is in my space they're not going to comment on the fact that I'm watching a third season of the Real Housewives and come in like why are you watching that? and I was like why do you watch ESPN all day? you know no judgment it's good not to have judgment but you can fall into that trap of comfort but all the studies show that that's not good for us And I want our young people not to get in the habit, especially now that you don't have to go to work.

13:45If you're out there and you're finding yourself alone a lot, I want you to resist that being the norm. And that means you've got to take the risk, the scary risk, the fear thing again, of reaching out to somebody, you know, maybe being rejected, learning how to parcel through and get some resilience around friendship so that we're not alone. And that helps with stress, anxiety, uncertainty. Just being able to talk to somebody going, doesn't this feel crazy these times? Just having somebody else go, yeah, I'm struggling too. That helps. That's a tool for getting through these times. More after the break.

14:34So an observation. In the years that you were in the White House, you seem to have used that kitchen table metaphor, even when you were in the White House, to take some of the pressure off, to bring people in for dinners. To, you know, after a rough week, Friday night, Saturday night, let's bring some friends in. Let's invite some people that we, not always friends, sometimes dignitaries, sometimes people whose work you admired. Am I correct in saying that, that that was part of what you did when you were at the White House also? Our motto in the White House was also, don't make that house so precious.

15:06It's the people's house. But I watched, and I'd been there before as a U.S. senator, and I realized, who comes here? Who gets to come into these hallowed halls? And there'd be statesmen and diplomats and state dinners, and I'd notice, even as a citizen looking in, what goes on in that house? I didn't want it to be a mystery. I wanted people in that house, particularly kids in that house, kids who would never be invited in that house but for us being there. I wanted it filled with music. I wanted there to be trick-or-treating. I wanted us to use the South Lawn for sleepovers. So every state dinner that we had, we had kids.

15:47We would do a companion tasting for kids who would come in. They'd be able to see the China. They would learn about the country that was coming. Kids would be invited to that arrival ceremony so they could sit on the lawn. Because I was like, what does it mean to live in D.C. and have a state visit? And you don't even know what that is. Why would we do that? Why wouldn't we have kids from Anacostia and all over just in that house so that they understand what goes on behind those gates? We wanted that house to be alive. And so, yeah, we we had people there all the time, all the time. It was a valuable part of me making sure that the kids I came in contact with felt seen, and they felt like a part of this administration, a part of this country, all kids.

16:37I'm not surprised to hear you say that, because when we first met each other, I was actually covering you on the campaign trail. You were out in South Carolina campaigning for your husband, who was then the candidate before he was elected to the White House. and we were at this community center and I remember that you visited a community center where they had a children's program and your staff was like gotta go gotta move gotta go gotta move and you sat and you you spent you bent down and you talked to every one of those kids you spent time with every one of those kids so when you moved into the White House and you started to fill the White House with children I was not surprised at all and I think one of the most profound things you have said repeatedly is, I see myself in you.

17:21That's such a powerful statement because so many children from different kinds of backgrounds have never heard that from someone, someone like you, someone who lived in the White House. We can't be who we can't see. And, you know, that has been said in so many ways. And yeah, it meant a lot. We ran all eight years off camera, nothing that we publicized. We did a mentorship program for kids. And by mentorship, we did leadership programs. But this was a very intimate internship program because I felt like this house needed to have a relationship with the kids in the immediate vicinity, right in Anacostia, right in Northeast, the kids right in the backyard of the White House.

18:08And I wanted to have a meaningful long-term commitment because the other thing I realized about kids when they interact with famous people, you interact once and then you never see them again. And I always wonder, what does that do? You know, especially when we show up, we shut down streets. It's a big deal. There's press, there's lights, cameras. I feel like apologizing going, I don't want you to feel used by this. And when you show up once, it feels like you're using kids. and I never wanted kids to feel used. So any interaction I had at a school or with a set of kids, the goal was we have to touch these kids at least three times.

18:49They can't just show up for a photo op. That may mean they get invited back for a music event or they'll come and do something in the garden or I'll go to the school or I'll invite them back for lunch or a conversation because I want kids to know this wasn't just a one-time thing. This wasn't just some important people coming through your life. You were going to be engaged, and the mentorship program was a way we could drill down. So we picked kids in the local area, diverse group of kids. We didn't pick the top students. We didn't pick the worst students. We picked the kids that were just right there, kind of lost.

19:27They weren't bad enough to be trouble and weren't good enough to be excellent, but still capable. And we brought them in once a month. They were paired with somebody senior in the administration. For the girls, it was the executive chef. She was a mentor. Valerie Jarrett was a mentor. Everyone from the top down. And everyone was assigned a girl, but the girls would come every week. And the first time the girls would come, the way they would come into the house, they were, of course, shy, quiet. it, they'd meet with me at first and they could barely look me in the eye. And my whole goal was by the time you finish, you're going to feel like you own this place.

20:09Because if you can walk into the White House, be here every week, feel like this place is for you, you can do anything. So they'd come in as sophomores, barely looking me in the eye, right? But after coming for years, month after month, and then we would do a graduation program, the transformation would just be amazing. All these girls would come in with their parents. Oh, this is Michelle Obama. I talk to her all the time. Who I really want you to meet is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is the dip room. And this is where we did this exercise. Their chest would just come out, right? that's what seeing a kid can do you know it is as simple as that now I can't say that all these kids went on to be president but they will remember that you don't forget when somebody tries to lower your bar especially when you're young you don't you you you remember the people who doubt you.

21:14You remember the negative energy. You know when you're not being seen. You know when you're not being valued. And when you don't get that light, you misbehave in the darkness. And when we look around at kids, any kids anywhere in the world who are stealing, doping, drugging, ganging, those are kids who are not seen. And so I use my platform as much as possible so that they have something good to remember. They can say that Barack Obama saw me. Barack Obama allowed me to sit in his house and talk to me like a real person again and again and again. We can all do that for a kid in our life, but we also can do the damage.

22:01So we have to be careful about how we interact with kids, the assumptions we make about them. If they walk into a store and you accuse them of not belonging. You follow them. You call them out for selling lemonade. You Karenize them. I don't want to be. But when that happens to a kid, they do not forget it. And it damages them. Our duty is to use our light to shine it on kids so that they don't have to seek out attention in the dark.

22:40I have one last question. Yes, ma 'am. And it's sad to get to the end of the road, but what does it mean to you to be back with people who are so eager to hear your message and to sop up all the wisdom in your book? What does it mean to you? This is the air I breathe, too, you know, because I am a people person, and I don't get to be in the world normally anymore. That was a trade-off, you know, And I'm not complaining because we were able to do some good stuff in the world. But I no longer have the luxury of anonymity. I can't just sit and listen over your conversations and figure out, what did you say in the grocery store?

23:23You're going to see me and then you're going to stop talking and go, is that Michelle Obama? It's like, no, I'm just trying to hear about your marriage. Just pretend like I'm not here. Just trying to figure out where things are. At my heart, I am a sociologist. That was my major. And I love people. I love the study. I am fascinated with y 'all. But selfishly, it's like these rooms keep me hopeful. And I hope they keep you hopeful. I mean, one of the things I said in my book is that, you know, I think these rooms are sort of about me. But I think they're more about us and what we crave. when you leave here you guys are going to feel better about yourselves and each other because this is what America is I've been out there this it's it's not what we read on the news that is that's a business right and and this does not diminish how hard things are right now people are struggling and we need to be doing more to provide support mental health support health care support jobs we need to figure out what we're doing and as jobs are being eliminated because of technology the the planet is getting warmer there are lots of problems our young people are experiencing record levels of anxiety so this is not to whitewash that the the reality of things but america is full of decent people and right now because of those uncertainties we just are acting outside of ourselves.

25:04But that's not who we are. This is who we are, regardless of party. Because as first as the first black first lady of the United States,

25:21people, people have always been decent to us, not across the board, but the vast majority of people were willing to open their hearts to this new thing, this black family in America running the country and go, huh, I see myself. Yeah, that makes sense. I get it. I didn't know that that's who they were. And people's hearts can open more. That's why we can't be afraid of each other, because there's really nothing to fear. You know, we're all just trying to get to the same place. I hope these rooms remind you and make you as hopeful as they make me. And we've got to hold on to these feelings, right?

26:08And we've got to look for leaders who want to lead in this way. I don't care what party, but we should demand more hopeful leadership. We deserve it and our kids deserve it. Thank you so much. Amen.

26:28When I wake up in the morning, love. Sometimes when you're in it, when you're living life and feeling overwhelmed, it can be easy to forget that you're not alone. It can be hard to remember that other people may be feeling the same way you are and that there are folks out there who might be able to help or at least relate. In those moments, you might not know you need them. You might not even think you need them, but we all need people who compliment us. And I don't mean those who just say nice things. I mean people who fill a part of us we didn't even know was empty. People who lift us up when we're down, who get us out of that fog when we didn't even know we were in it.

27:18It can just be one person, a friend who sees us for who we are, who can help us become who we want to be? This year, I hope you find a new friend, a new mentor, a partner, or a peer who compliments you. And I hope they bring a little more light into your life, just like Michelle does for me. Because you deserve it. We all do. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time. If you want to hear more from Michelle, Check out Your Mama's Kitchen on Audible or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to keep the conversation going with me, pre-order the paperback edition of The Light We Carry online, or even better, at your favorite local bookstore.

28:14This has been a Higher Ground and Audible original. Produced by Higher Ground and Little Everywhere. Executive produced by Dan Fearman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers are Kate Navin and Nick D 'Angelo. Audible co-producers Keith Wooten and Glyn Pogue. Produced by Mike Richter. With additional production by Joy Sanford, Dan Gallucci and Nancy Golombiski. with production support from Andrew Eapin, Francesca Diaz, Camila Therdekus, and Ryan Kozlowski. Chief Content Officer at Audible, Rachel Giazza. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill VanLokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex May Seeley, Haley Ewing, Marone Hailemeskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray, and Jerry Radway, Meredith Koop, Sarah Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg and Usra Najum.