In short
Podcast Summary: IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Episode Title
You Need to Learn to Say No (Even to an Inauguration) with Taraji P. Henson
Episode Overview In this episode, Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson are joined by actress and mental health advocate Taraji P. Henson. They delve into topics such as setting personal boundaries, the importance of self-care, the significance of therapy post-White House, and the impact of societal expectations on women, particularly women of color. The episode is laced with humor, heartfelt discussions, and valuable insights.
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Key Themes and Discussions
- Setting Boundaries
- Importance of Saying No: Taraji emphasizes the need for women, especially in the entertainment industry, to learn to say no. She describes how saying no can protect personal peace and well-being.
- Personal Experiences: Both Michelle and Taraji share their struggles with societal and personal pressures that make setting boundaries difficult.
- Post-White House Reflections
- Michelle Obama’s Experience: Michelle discusses her experience after leaving the White House and the personal reflections it triggered. She questions the impact of her time in that high-pressure environment on her mental health and self-perception.
- Therapy: The conversation highlights the importance of therapy for processing experiences and mental health challenges, especially as public figures.
- Mental Health Advocacy
- Taraji's Foundation: Taraji talks about the Boris L. Henson Foundation, which she founded to enhance access to mental health services in Black communities. She emphasizes breaking the stigma around mental health discussions in these communities.
- Accessibility Issues: The episode discusses the lack of therapists of color and the need for representation in mental health fields.
- Cultural Expectations
- Black Women’s Burden: The discussion touches on the historical context of Black women feeling the need to be "strong" and the inability to express vulnerability without being labeled as "angry."
- Generational Trauma: Both Michelle and Taraji reflect on how past experiences of their mothers and grandmothers shape their current outlook and behaviors.
- Personal Growth and Self-Love
- Importance of Self-Care: Taraji shares her journey of self-discovery and the realization that she must prioritize her own needs to be effective in her roles as a mother, actress, and businesswoman.
- Practice of No: The episode encourages listeners to practice saying no to protect their mental health and happiness.
- Coping Strategies
- Embracing Leisure Activities: Taraji mentions her love for watching reality TV as a way to unwind, emphasizing the importance of leisure in maintaining mental health.
- Community and Family: Both guests stress the value of family support and community connections in navigating life’s challenges.
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Final Takeaways
- Empowerment through No: The power of saying no is a recurring message throughout the episode, reinforcing the idea that prioritizing oneself is not selfish but essential.
- The Journey of Unlearning: Both Michelle and Taraji highlight the ongoing process of unlearning harmful societal messages and practices that have been ingrained over time.
- The Need for Open Dialogue: There is a strong call for open conversations about mental health, particularly in underserved communities, to foster understanding and support.
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Listener Engagement Listeners are encouraged to submit their questions to the IMO podcast for future discussions and advice.
Conclusion This episode is a heartfelt and candid exploration of the challenges faced by women, especially women of color, and the importance of self-care, boundaries, and mental health advocacy. It is a reminder that personal well-being is crucial in the pursuit of success and happiness.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:41And say goodbye to microplastics forever. What happened that eight years that we were in the White House? What did that do to me? Yes. Internally, my soul, we made it through. We got out alive. I hope we made the country proud. My girls, thank God, are whole. But what happened to me? Right. Right?
2:07This episode is brought to you by Pine Salt and TheraFood. Craig Malcolm Robinson. Michelle LeVon Robinson. Not Robinson. Obama. Obama. What, what, what, what, 30 years? How's it going? It's going well. It's going well. How are you doing? Doing, doing well. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to be here with you. We've got a great show coming up. I'm so excited. But we are here in LA and you doing your thing. I'm doing my thing. It's staying in an Airbnb again. And I tell you, every time I stay in one, it makes me want to stay in one wherever I go. The boys have a tournament coming up in a month or so. And rather than staying in a hotel, we're going to get an Airbnb so we can do all of our own cooking and washing of dirty uniforms.
3:02Yeah, yeah. So I'm really excited. You're just becoming an Airbnb aficionado. I am, I am, I am. Quite impressed. I absolutely have enjoyed my time because, you know, I was always Mr. Hotel. You were. Points and all that stuff. You seem younger than you are. That makes you more up to date than, you know, your age portends. You're living like a young person out there. I know, I know. But Airbnb is for everyone of all ages, and you were living proof of that. I am. I am. Well, how excited are we? Very, very excited. Well, folks, I'm going to get right to our guest because we want to bring her out.
3:44Because this is one of those. And I am a huge fan, and I've got goosebumps. Let me just say, my brother has been giddy, little silly giddy all day. And he even wore a whole suit. for this one. Because he's usually in jeans. It's like there's usually, we don't know what's going on down there, but your top matches your pants today. That means we got somebody special here with us. See what happens when you try and clean yourself up? Your sister takes full advantage. But our guest today is none other than Taraji P. Henson. My girl. And she is an Academy Award-nominated actor, producer, and number one New York Times bestselling author, mental health advocate, and entrepreneur.
4:31Yeah, yeah. Owning her own stuff. Yeah, she's starring in Tyler Perry's Straw on Netflix, which I watched the trailer and I was crying on the trailer. I know, I know. Taraji, she'll do that to you. She does it to you. She does it to you. Yeah, I can't wait for that to come out. I know, I know. She is also the founder of the Boris L. Henson Foundation, named after her father, which works to enhance access to mental health services within Black communities. She has also launched TPH by Taraji, a line of spa-inspired products, and is the strategic advisor for Seven Daughters Moscato. Moscato. I got me a bottle.
5:14Ooh. I had two bottles. I may let you try one. Let me try one. I would love that. If you act right. But without any further ado, Taraji, please come out and join us. Thank you so much. Are you kidding me? Good to see you. I love your hair. Thank you. Love yours too. Thank you. Oh my goodness. It took a while to do mine, so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he has so much hair. Looking good. Now, the last time we saw one another was at the final White House party. in the last night. It was the last night. Was it the very last night or was it one of the last parties? I can't remember. I think it was. I think it was, but I just never forget I was leaving and I thought it was pretty late.
6:12It was. I'm leaving because I'm tired. My feet hurt. I have on socks walking to the car. And I remember you saying that. Yes. Because I was like, girl, my feet hurt. You had socks walking to the car? Yes, because my feet, I danced out of my shoes. And Tom Hanks was walking across the floor like this. He's still partying. I will never forget that. Well, we are thrilled, beyond thrilled to have you here. Thank you. Let me just fangirl a little bit, because I didn't get to do that at the party when I saw you, but we are huge fans. Thank you. And you, oh man, you just bring every part of you to the work that you do.
6:53And I will never forget my reaction. And I know a lot of actors like you who do so many things don't want to get pigeonholed into one role. But let me just say, Cookie on Empire. I mean, I got on the phone to people when you showed up on screen because I was like, this is a real character. I mean, this is like, I felt all of who Cookie was. And I called people on the phone. I was like, you have got to watch Empire. This is a different kind of series that's coming on. And it was because of your performance. Thank you. And, you know, and then to see the trailer of Straw, which is, you know, the story of Black women at the edge of everything and just the trailer alone, as Craig said, brings you to tears.
7:51I guess I just want to know, where does all that come from in that little bitty body of yours? Well, I am trained. I went to Howard University. But, you know, as an actor, sometimes, you know, sharing a bit of, you know, the character's joy or pain, mine might bleed in a little bit. And I've been through some things in life. You know, it wasn't easy growing up, you know, in the hood or whatever. But, you know, I made it out. Yeah. You know, but, you know, life will throw curveballs at you. And it's not always, you know, I know people look at celebrities and they're like, oh, you got it made because you're rich.
8:35But like the great guru Biggie Small says, more money, more problems. Oh, yeah. You know, you think your problems go away because you finally made it or whatever. And it's like, no, you get more problems, more expensive problems. But again, you know, the training and just being true to the character. And I think as actors, what we do is very spiritual. Yeah. Because we use our bodies as vessels to tell a character's truth. And so I can't judge that character. A lot of times I do. Like I judged Cookie at first. I was like, oh my God, she's a whore. I did. It was hard not to. But the job of the actor is to show the why.
9:17And when you show the why, that's when you gain empathy. Because there's always a why. Well, you know, I'm a trained athlete. So I'm different. But when you said that, you know, I'm trained. You know, I never think of that with non-athletes. Right. And that is, it's a real skill. It is. But I'm just sitting here getting nervous because every time I watch you on the screen, I feel something emotionally. And I just want to thank you for that because it is a, I mean, just, I'm thinking about, you know, Benjamin Button. I'm thinking about Proud Mary. I mean, Proud Mary, you know, I still have a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old.
10:09Oh, wow. So that hit me. You know, I will let my kids watch R-rated movies if you're in them. I want to know some of the why of Taraji, the real woman. Because you are doing a little bit of everything now. You are not just acting and winning awards, but you're building an empire of your own. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? because you just had a major win personally on the business side, gaining more control over your own stuff. Can you talk a bit about your company? Yes. Well, TPH, I don't know if a lot of people may or may not know this about me, but I didn't get accepted into Duke Ellington School of Fine Arts in Washington, D.C.
11:01And the next thing, my next passion was cosmetology. I love doing hair and nails and makeup, But I missed, you had to enroll in the ninth grade. I missed it by a year. And I just think it was God. You know, I wasn't supposed to go down that path. But that's always been a passion of mine. That's how I fed myself in college, you know, because I didn't have money. And so I would do$20 wet sets because I had a hooded dryer out of my dorm room. And you went to Howard. And I went to Howard. But my first, I started at North Carolina A &T. Oh, that's right. Yeah, because I really didn't think I could act.
11:38That's right. And then my father let me fall flat on my face because math is not, I'm not mathematically wired at all. Me either, girl. I'm an artist. I am an artist to the bone. And so when I failed pre-calc, my dad was like, that's what you get. Now you get back up here and go to Howard and you enroll and you get back into acting. And that's how I - Oh, so you were running from acting. I ran from it. Oh, wow. Yeah, I ran from it. I thought you were saying your dad pushed you in. No, he knew that I was a performer. He was telling me when I was little that I would win an Oscar. You're going to be one of the greatest actors alive.
12:16Because I'd been hearing that so much from him when I did not get accepted into Duke Ellington. I didn't know how to take that, you know. Take that failure on the chin and keep moving. I just did it at 13 or what was that, 12. How did you believe that? You go, oh, that must mean I can't act. You know? Well, and having raised my children in Washington, we've done a lot of work with the Duke Ellington School. And to put it in perspective, it's like the Whitney Young, the magnet school that I went to, you know, well-funded school, you know, that just pushes out a lot of amazing artists all over the place.
12:57So I can imagine you grew up with that being your, you know. My North Star. So I just thought that, I just thought I didn't have the talent. And so imagine me going back to Howard. I felt out of sorts. And then finally, when I got back into the groove and I found my footing, everybody was like, well, you know, you went to Duke Ellington. And I was like, no, I didn't. They didn't accept me. Well, that is, you know, a beautiful thing to have a Black Maddie, you know, believe in his baby so much in a very challenging and non-traditional career. What a blessing to have that man be in that wind beneath your wings.
13:39Yeah, it was because in the day of, you should be a doctor or you need to be a lawyer. He really saw my gift. But like I said, I was doing$20 wet sets. So hair and cosmetology has always been in me. and I remember when I first got to Hollywood and I started working and I couldn't afford weaves when I was in college so when I got to Hollywood I heard about women I lost my edges and I didn't want to lose my edges and I started working See, we have that issue too, Craig You see what she did? I'm sorry, I didn't put it She said, we have that too and then she looks up at my head Well That's what happens That's what happens.
14:24That's why we're doing this show. Maybe if you would have found TPH sooner, you would have your edges. I'm sorry, Taraji. I didn't have to give it to my brother. It was perfect timing. You know I'm the older brother. You know that, right? She's making up for all the times when you picked on her when she was little. I'm sure. But in the spirit of saving our edges. Yeah. So I just remember I got my first install and I was like, well, this is great for protecting my hair. but how do I get to my hair? How do I take care of my hair while it's in an install? And so I created this concoction and I remember going on vacation with a girlfriend of mine and her daughter.
15:02They had protective styles and they complained about Itchy Scout, but I said, well, use what I use. And I put it together and they came out of the bathroom. I was like, oh my God, where do I get this? This is amazing. And I was like, give me a minute. And so that's how TPH was born out of my own necessity. And for me, it was about the education of Scout because I knew women were getting installs wearing wigs, but I was like, I don't think they understand that you still have to take care of your hair if it's in an install. So that's when I was like, this is a great way for me to enter into the beauty industry.
15:36So that's how TPH was born, out of my own necessity. And you now own it. I own it. I finally, I bought it back. It's mine. It's mine. It's mine. I have a lot of work to do, but I am ready. I'm ready for it because it's mine. I feel like Cookie. I own my company, Lucius. There you go. There you go. And that's where it begins. So now you're a businesswoman. Yes. You're adding that onto your plate. Yes. But you've been doing all that and raising a strong Black man. I want to know, how do you manage it all? It wasn't easy. It's never easy. You know, as life, you have ups and downs. You have dark days.
16:20You have light days. You have gray areas. And for me, it was just learning how to take care of myself. Because as women, we take care of so much. And we take care of the family. And a lot of times, we put ourselves last. And it took me a while to understand that if I don't pour into myself, I have nothing to give. And I've reached those points a lot in my life, trying to do so much. And, you know, I come from the grind, grind, grind, you know, that grinding will kill you, you know. And I would work so hard and then just feel burnt out, you know. And it made me question sometimes, is this even still what I want to do?
17:09Wow. You know, because of the exhaustion. Acting. Yes. Yeah. Also, too, having to do so many jobs because the money, the math wasn't mathing. Oh, gotcha. I wish I had the luxury of just doing one film a year. Right, right. You know? But that's not the case for me. And that's not the case for many black actors, I would imagine, right? Yeah. It's not. Yeah. So when you see us working a lot, it's because we kind of have to. Yeah.
17:44Well, you know, another story I think about is how mom and dad trained us to work hard. You remember the chores? Oh, yeah. We had chores very early on. Very early on. That's another thing I think, you know. One of the best things that our parents did for us is - Real work. Real work. Real work around the house. And what I mean by real work is I had, my chores were to clean the bathroom. I cleaned the bathroom. What are you talking about? We alternated. We alternated weeks. Okay. Because I loved cleaning the bathroom. And I didn't, but I had to do it. Mom wanted us both to know how to have a clean bathroom.
18:31But my every weekend job was cleaning those stairs. Oh, that's right. Yeah. We had 14 stairs. Notice I remember how many there were. Yeah, you had to. That went from our apartment down to our great aunt Robbie's apartment. And this is what I remember about Saturday morning. You remember that tin pot that we used to have? We had a tin pot, a pot now that used to be on the stove, which was now used for cleaning. And you put a little soap, dish soap in it. And then you put pine salt in it. Ooh, nothing like pine salt. And there was nothing like that smell. Like when you came home from school and mom had been mopping and you could smell the pine salt.
19:18It was usually Monday because she had laundry on Monday. You come home from school and it smells like, ah, new house. Yeah. And I have to say that I still to this day, when I'm mopping, if we don't have that pine oil smell. That's it. That's it, isn't it? That's it. And here we are in adulthood, and they're a partner of ours on this podcast. You know, an appropriate partner. How about it? So when you get a chance out there, visit pinesol.com and find out where you can shop for your pine salt. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theraflu. As a product that was created to provide effective and comforting relief when you're fighting the flu or a cold, Theraflu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege.
20:16You know, I think back to the time when my dad was working for the city of Chicago as a stationary fireman, and it seemed to us that he never missed work and he never got sick. But what we realized is that my dad didn't want to take his paid sick time because he wasn't sure if he would keep his job by doing that. And my sister and I realized that my dad would be sick, but he just thugged through it. It was a difficult thing for him to deal with then. And unfortunately, so many Americans still face this pressure today. 27 million Americans still lack paid sick time, which causes them to have to choose between losing a day's pay and getting the proper rest they need in order to get better.
21:07And what's worse, this all-too-common issue disproportionately impacts lower-income individuals. Theraflu created the Rest and Recover Fund, which has committed nearly$1 million to provide microgrants to workers to help offset the financial burden of taking an unpaid sick day. It's been making a big impact, and Theraflu is committed to keeping the fight going, as everyone deserves the right to rest and recover. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at theraflu.com slash right to recover.
21:51Well, Taraji, what you just said about being burnt out, I hear my sister talk about that. Now, I didn't hear my mom talk about that, but I want to dig deeper into that a bit. Where does that start? Do you think you were trained to take on all of these things or did you develop that because you're - out of necessity. Out of necessity to be excellent because we have to be so much more, we have to be so much better than most to get where we want to be. Or is it innate just in our culture because where we have been because of slavery and it was really the black woman who had to protect the family because the black man was getting sold all over the place.
22:42Where do you think that comes from, from you? And then I want to hear where it comes from, from me. I think it's a culmination of all of it. Because there is, you know, things that happen in slavery, that's still in our DNA. That's still a part of who we are. Right. You know, so I can't run from that. That's my makeup. Watching my mother do it. Watching my grandmother do it. You know, it's just what I'm used to.
23:14unlearning, unlearning that trauma is where I am now, you know, but for so long, it was just, this is what you do. You know, I watched my mother work two jobs, you know, and to put food on the table and pay the rent for our little apartment, you know. And so I grew up going, that's what you have to do. You got to work however many jobs and grind hard to make it happen. I was a single mother, so I didn't have time to sit down. I remember one day, and this, like, Marcel was like four years old. I was so tired. I wanted to cry. Like, you know, I don't think, I wouldn't wish being a single parent on my worst enemy, literally, because, you know, think about when you're exhausted and it's like the baby's crying.
23:59Oh, can you go get him, honey? There was no honey. That I was honey. So if I worked 12 hours and I come home, I was still honey. If the baby's sick, everything fell on me. And I just remember one day, I was on the sofa and I just wanted to give up. But that's not in me either. I think those thoughts, but then my ancestors go, girl, you better get up. You know, and that's the, you know, the part of what you said that you never heard mom complain about it. I think that that's part of the issue. Part of the trauma. You know, when we grow up, our grandmothers, you know, Grandma LaVon, Grandma Rebecca, you know, these were all women.
24:47All black women had to work. Yep. Our mother was fortunate. She didn't work until I went to high school, but that was a choice that she and my father made. So we lived off of one salary and we made huge sacrifices for that because I think my mother understood that if she was going to be the kind of mother she wanted to be, that we would forego living a good life, that we live in a little bitty apartment and just make ends meet. But that was a rare thing. But you've never heard these women complain because it was just the way life was. And I think that that's part of our trauma too, because we grew up with women who weren't voicing the pain and the burden.
25:34They made it look easy. And when you make stuff look easy, people assume that you must like this. It's okay with you, right? We don't articulate as Black Black women are paying because it's almost like nobody ever gave us permission to do that. And does anyone care? Yeah, there's that part. Well, if we knew, I think we would care. If we knew. If we knew. Or, you know, yeah. And we have to ask ourselves, the men in our lives is, you know, why wait to be asked? You know, it seems like what we go through is pretty obvious. I mean, maybe we're not complaining, but we're actually living life out loud.
26:21You know, you see us carrying these babies. You see us working a job and coming home and managing, getting food on the table and handling doctor's appointments. And this is, you know, if you've got a partner, right? I think some of us feel like, why should we have to ask? Yeah. You know, it seems apparent. And as Black women, sometimes we, you know, there is that underlying thing we're socialized to believe from very early on that we don't deserve any better, you know? Or that this is life for us. It's going to be hard. Like, I grew up just expecting it. You know, I did. And, you know, it wasn't until, you know, like my son, he's growing up.
27:09There's no dad around. I lost my father in 06. His father was murdered two years prior to that. And so it's like, who do I turn to? And then, as you know, young boys, as he's growing up, the rose-colored glasses come off and he's starting to see life for a young Black man. And that was difficult. And I'm not a Black man, so how do I help him maneuver through this? And I was like, we need help. And it was time to look for therapy. which I never shunned therapy because my father was a Vietnam vet and he always talked about his struggles openly. And so I was like, well, then we need help. And so I started looking for help for us.
27:54And when I couldn't find anyone who looked like us, because now I got to get my son to open up to someone and he's not going to feel right if the person doesn't feel familiar. And I was like, something has to be done here. That's when I launched the Forrest Lawrence Henson Foundation in honor of my father. Because I know in our community, we just do not talk about mental health. We don't. Exactly. We do not. Because we are demonized. We are chastised. It's looked upon as weak. We give it to God. We give it to God. And that's an important— Spirituality is an important— But God gifted humans to be therapists to help other humans.
28:39So it go hand in hand. You need both. So I was like, this is a real problem. And we started looking at the numbers and only like 7 % of the therapists, clinicians, and psychiatrists were of color. I was like, this is because our children don't know to go into this career to even study this in college. And so I was like, we have to do something about this. that's when I started the work in the mental health. That's when I started checking myself. Like, whoa, you have been operating dysfunctionally for a while. You know, so a lot of the stuff I'm doing now is undoing. It's a lot of undoing. But it's, I'm grateful because I feel better.
29:23Yeah, yeah. You know, and then I can help this generation coming behind to not fall into the same traps that I did and believing the same things that we just didn't know otherwise to believe. Well, I think that's why it's important for us at tables like this, for women like us who do have a platform to talk openly about the challenges that we face, not because we are complaining, which we don't want to ever be complaining, but because we need to change. we need to turn that cycle on its head. And we have to talk about our stresses openly. And also as Black women, we are so easily labeled as angry and bitter.
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30:13And let me tell you some of the most hurtful stuff that I experienced entering this life of public service at the heights that we entered into was during my husband's presidential campaign and just me telling the truth of who we were, just humanizing him as a man, saying he's a great man, but he's not perfect. He's got his foibles and his flaws trying to humanize him. The first thing that some female journalist said was that I was bitter. I was emasculating him just by sort of trying to tell the truth about what life is, right? And then you get labeled as angry because you talk forcefully or passionately about something, even if it's in the context of great joy and pride that the first label they put on us as Black women is that we are angry.
31:20And, you know, the irony is, is like, yeah, I am probably less light than many of my white female friends. I see that. Less light. Less light. Not light. Light. L-I-G-H-T. Because I say this a lot. I mean, I see the difference in some of my white female friends. I see a lightness, an ability to be in the world and see what's going on, but still be not as burdened about it as I think I am. You know, I think that what I see happen in the news, you know, the assault on immigration rights, the, you know, the challenges that face our community, the inequality, I think it burns at me in a different way.
32:19Because it affects you. Yeah. It affects your children. Yeah. It affects you. Yeah. So imagine, you know, we wake up every day just carrying that. Yeah. You know, even if it doesn't directly affect me, sometimes I just have to stop reading the paper. Yes. So that I can stop thinking about all that's wrong. Sometimes, I don't know about you, Taraji, I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That's why I have to, I'm not as, you know, I'm not on social media that much. As you get older, you realize what's important and how to protect your peace. And honestly, social media, we're not supposed to feel all of the emotions that we feel in that short span of scrolling.
33:06One minute you're laughing, the next minute you're angry, the next minute you want to cry. That's not even, that's not right. Something is wrong about that. But, you know, a lot of times that's where you get the news. Or you see something disturbing in it. I'm an empath. So I take things on. I stopped watching the news a long time ago. I had to. Because sometimes I feel like, are they trying to scare us? Like, is there anything good happening out there? So I had to stop to protect my peace. Well, speaking of taking care of ourselves, and we like to think of IMO as sort of therapy for the folks who aren't quite there yet.
33:50And in that vein, I'd love to get to our... Our listener question from Shantae from North Carolina. We're not even halfway through the year. And as a Black woman, I feel burned out. It's not just the world and politics, but it's also the expectations of myself and others as it pertains to my personal life. Like career, family, issues at my job, obligations I feel pressured into, and more. I don't know you personally, but I imagine you might have been here before. Any advice? Mm-hmm. Better learn the word no. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know this hits both of you in a different way or in a similar way.
34:35Well, you embarked upon an interesting journey to find your peace recently. Can you share some of your tools for trying to find that peace? Well, I'll tell you this. No is my favorite word. Yeah. No. No. And I found out how powerful no is, especially in this town. This is a town of yes. Yes, men. Yes, I'll do it. Yes, whatever you need. Just make me a star. You know? Make me rich. You know? But no is so powerful because that is you taking up for yourself. Right. No, I don't feel like coming to dinner. Yeah. No, I don't want to do that role. I don't, that doesn't serve a purpose for me. I know the check is great.
35:29Maybe that's someone else's blessing. You know what I mean? And the relief that I get from saying no, because I know I'm protecting my peace. I know I'm doing a good thing because for a while I was the yes girl, the people pleaser, you know? And I just couldn't do it anymore because it wasn't servicing me. And I wasn't feeling fulfilled because why am I doing this? I've had to cut people out of my life. It's okay. You weigh me down. You know, I can't carry your load and mine. You know, family members even. Sorry. And you don't learn that. It's unfortunate. You don't learn it until you get older.
36:17That's right. Because in your 20s, you just, I'm ready to do it all, even in your 30s still. But as I, you know, I'll say about 45, I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. That doesn't serve me. That doesn't make me happy inside. And if I say yes, that person's happy, but then I'm left to carry something that doesn't feel comfortable to me. Yeah. How have you shared this with your young son? And I say young because 30 is still young. Yeah, very young. Do you encourage him to therapy? Because I'll tell you, you know how black men are. We ain't really feeling the therapy thing. No, he's not like that at all.
36:59Oh, that's great. Because we need to educate our young black men that therapy is a good thing. We go to therapy together. You think a mother-son relationship is easy without a dad? That's right. It's not. All relationships need work. You know, even the relationships with my girlfriends, you know, we get in our little stuff sometimes. But, you know, we're in a place where we're all in therapy.
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38:21It's about matching people with the right opportunities and challenging the status quo of hiring. It's about prioritizing skills and being transparent about what you'll be doing, what you'll be paid, and what the workplace will be like. On this podcast, we're all about keeping things real and being honest. And that's also how Indeed views helping the world work better. Indeed is the place to find what you need. Visit indeed.com and start finding better work. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. The Cologuard test is a one-of-a-kind way to feel more in control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription-based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy.
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41:08When I hear you talk about the practice, what I'll call the practice of no, because you're absolutely right. And I know that everyone struggles with disappointing people, with trying to set boundaries. But I particularly relate to what you were saying about it takes you a while before you, maybe as a woman, as a Black woman, where we feel comfortable saying no. And I was sitting here thinking, well, why is that? And why was that for me? Because this is something that I am working on right now. You know, I, like you, I have believed in therapy my whole life. You know, done couples therapy with my husband.
41:53Both my girls are, they believe in therapy this generation. Thankfully, I think our children are way more open to it. They understand the importance of self-help and all of that. I also sort of realized that even Michelle Obama, I am still trying to tell myself that I am doing enough, right? Because there's always that feeling. I think we practice that striving because in order to be successful, I always felt like I had to be smarter, faster, work harder because somebody was going to doubt me. Somebody was already telling me why I couldn't do something before they knew me or I even tried. And I don't think this is unique to just women of color.
42:46I don't think it's just unique to men. But when you get in that habit of that constant striving and constant proving that it's enough, it makes us overachievers, but you don't ever turn that off. And at 60, I was still, I had to convince myself that I had done enough. After all that I had done in the world, I still felt a guilt, right? Struggling with like deep guilt that maybe, maybe I needed to do a little bit more. so I'm at this stage in life where I have to define my life on my terms for the first time so what are those terms and going to therapy just to work all that out like what happened that eight years that we were in the White House what did that do to me yes internally my soul we we made it through we got out alive I hope we made the country proud my girls thank God are whole but what happened to me?
43:50Right. Right? Right. And going through therapy, you know, is getting me to look at the fact that maybe, maybe finally I'm good enough. Right? And unlearning some of those messages that I've been saying to myself and then trying to actively practice something different to rewire those neurons in my head that make me keep pushing and keep striving. And so practicing no in a very different way intentionally. But then this is what makes it hard because my decision to skip the inauguration, what people don't realize, or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism.
44:42Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart. It's like, while I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me, and it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me. That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it. And it started with not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively, because I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything.
45:25I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my team, I don't even want to have a dress ready, right? Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing. But then you become a shock absorber. And that's what women are, shock absorbers. And that's exhausting and it's not healthy. It is not healthy. You've had to be shock absorbers for your husband, for your children, for your mom, for your family, your loved ones because of where you were sitting in the public eye. That's not fair to you.
46:08When do you ever get to live for you? I applaud you. I'm happy that you are taking care of yourself in the way that you need to. But I've been talking to Misha about this and opting out might be, that's a great prognosis or a great suggestion or strategy for folks who are feeling the way we're talking about here. Because you can't keep pushing through. That's detrimental. That could end very bad because you're not paying attention. I mean, I had a girlfriend one time. She was taking on so much. She didn't even realize she spilled hot grease on her chest. She just disfigured her entire chest doing too much.
47:08I mean, physically, it's impossible. You have to stop and go, whoa, what's happening with me? You know, I have to check out. I'm sorry, everyone. I have to check out for my own safety and sanity. Yeah, yeah. And it's a hard thing to do, but you must. You must. I don't know if that's sending the kids away for summer. I used to get on my mom because that last day of school, my bag was in the trunk. She was driving me down south. Right? And I, I, I, now you understand. I totally get it. I understand that woman needed a break. And I was alive as a kid. I was very rambunctious. Probably undiagnosed ADHD.
47:52But here we are. Found a way to turn limited to limited. Exactly. Yeah, but like you're saying, you're just learning. I'm just learning. It's something that you have to do. And hopefully, Shantae, you will get this message from hearing from me and from Queen Michelle that you have to take time for yourself in spite of making people happy. At some point, you have to make yourself happy. Yeah, yeah. It's that simple. And one of the ways I started thinking about this, you know, because this is the habit. It's like, maybe I'm still working on being able to do things just solely for myself and being okay with that.
48:35I'm still working on it. Yeah. Through therapy and conversations like this and talking to my friends. But I'm still thinking about the example I'm setting for my daughters, right? So I am trying now that they are 23 and 26 to talk to them about my menopause brain. I'm like, how old are they? Is what he's referring to. I want them to start practicing now the art of saying no. Yes. Because I see it in them, you know? pleasing, excelling, not wanting to take anything for granted, always showing gratitude, right? Feeling like they're enough right now, right? It's a practice. It is. Right? It's a muscle that you have to build because if you don't constantly build it, you don't develop it.
49:34And I think we suffered because it's almost like we started training late in life to build that muscle, right? I am just now starting to build it, right? I want our daughters. I want the young women out there. And I know we're talking about women of color, but we're talking about women and we're talking about all people who take on too much. I mean, we can identify and relate to our why as Black women, but I don't presume that other people aren't dealing with these same struggles. Oh, absolutely. Right? So I want my girls to start practicing different strategies for saying no, right? I don't want them to, because if I'm showing up at this stage in my life and they are seeing me still wonder whether I deserve to say no, what does that teach them?
50:28If I, after all that I've done in this world, if I'm still showing them that I have to keep, I still have to show people that I love my country, that I'm doing the right thing, that I'm always setting, going high all the time, even in the face of a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction, right? All I'm doing is keeping in that crazy bar that our mothers and grandmothers set for us. So I'm trying to teach them just like, you know, Shantae. You got to start practicing your nose so you build that muscle. The sooner the better. The sooner the better. And here's the thing, what I've realized in practicing no a little bit, people can handle no.
51:18They really can. They have no choice. That's right. They have those times, really. And we're not all that important. No. The world doesn't stop. Stop spinning. Because I said no to your event. They usually just move on to the next thing. Yes. Absolutely. You know? So, you know, life goes on. You know? And if we stop carrying the load, maybe somebody, we set it down, somebody will pick it up. Absolutely. You know? Somebody will pick it up. I just celebrated. my family just celebrated my grandmother's 101 birthday. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. And this woman who raised eight of her own children, one niece, raised nine children, was married for 61 years before my grandfather passed away.
52:07I see her living her life finally. You know what I mean? And I think that's why she's still around. What does that look like when you say, what does that look like at 101? She's been with me to the Oscars. She's been with me to the Emmys twice. She's come out here. She's seen every house that I've owned out here in LA. She's traveled. She's been on cruises. And she not only, she prepares for the next day. Not only does she look forward to the next day, she prepares for it. I love that. And she was like, what y 'all going to do for my birthday? She loves to celebrate and she loves to bring people together and to have a good time.
52:55I see her living for herself finally. It's literally about what she wants to do. And I know that's why she's still here. It's like a second birth. And we don't want to have to wait till we're 100 to do that. No, we don't. 51 to do it. Yeah, or 55. Right. But I say, I don't know how old you are, but you better start saying no. I love that. So now let's think back to what you know now. You go back to your younger selves. Besides just saying you got to say no earlier, what are you telling your younger self so that you can start this work earlier? I wish I had known about therapy younger. Okay. I didn't find that until late 40s, 50.
53:47Okay. Okay. I didn't. I wish I had known about therapy earlier. I mean, I knew, but not only kind of, I didn't know, but I couldn't afford it. Yeah, really. Couldn't afford it. That part. Yeah. Yeah. And what kind of strategies are you learning that we can help Shante with or that have helped you outside of saying no? I heard about that. I thought was about you, Taraji, is that you play. A lot. Tell us about it. You got a playroom? I have a playroom. I always, okay. So when I grew up, my mom couldn't afford a lot of this stuff. Remember the catalogs? You would get the big series catalogs. We would go in, rip pages, circle.
54:32Exactly. And so I always. Bathroom reading for us. Yes, yes. Bathroom reading. I loved when we got those big catalogs. And I would go in there and I would circle and I would always promise myself, I don't care how old you get, but you're going to be successful. And when you do, make sure you have your little girl's room. That's what I used to call it. Okay. And in that room was going to be all the things that my heart desired. You know, back then it was dolls and the things that in the toy book. But as I got older, it became the salon. And in the salon is where I play. I have doll head. I have prosthetic hands where I practice doing nails.
55:08And during the pandemic, they called me the quarantine queen because I was learning, teaching myself how to do nails. I was teaching myself how to cut and color hair. And that's where I would go. And anytime I'm in distress, you will find me in my salon. Wow. And what you're doing is doing what you love doing for yourself. For myself. People think it's a little creepy because all the doll heads are looking at you when you walk in. But it's my happy place. It makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
55:47This episode is brought to you by Rivian and their fully electric, full-sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. The folks at Rivian lent me an R1S to drive around while I'm here in L.A., and it has been awesome. You know, I'm 6 '6", and there is plenty of leg room and head room for a guy like me. In addition, there's also great cargo space for my luggage. So learn more right now at Rivian.com. This episode of the IMO Podcast is brought to you by BetterHelp. How many times a day do you compare yourself to others or wish your life looked like someone else's? We all do it sometimes because it's easy to envy friends' lives on social media when you only see the good parts.
56:35But you know what they say, comparison is the thief of joy. And in reality, nobody has it all together. Therapy can help you focus on what you want instead of what others have. Like that career goal you set your sights on. Or that relationship you want to grow. Or that daily habit you want to get into. because your best life is always better than the idea of someone else's. We believe in therapy at IMO, and we've seen firsthand how beneficial it is to invest in your own well-being. You know, this reminds me of my teams when I coached. Back in my day, we didn't have therapists assigned to the team.
57:16And boy, it sure would have been nice to have the access to better help so I could send my players to someone who I could trust and was reputable. BetterHelp has experienced therapists ready to help you with challenges ranging from anxiety and relationships to stress. It's convenient, too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. And you deserve that. It's time to stop comparing and start living with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash IMO today to get 10 % off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash IMO. I will never forget the images and the stories that came out during and after Hurricane Katrina.
58:06The devastation felt so raw and real. And you could feel that we were living in a historical moment that might change how we view the world forever. And the aftermath of the hurricane ran much deeper than what most of us have heard in the news. It upended a public school system that was already collapsing, leading to the most radical education experiment in American history. In a new five-part podcast series, Where the Schools Went, details what happened to New Orleans school post-Katrina and how the lives of thousands of students were impacted. hosted by former school principal Ravi Gupta, Where the Schools Went blends immersive storytelling with deep reporting.
58:56It features the voices of educators, students, critics, and champions of the education reforms while unpacking the decades of dysfunction before the storm. This podcast is like a documentary for your ears and really underscores how high stakes the rebuilding of the New Orleans education system has been for the past two decades. Where the Schools Went is a story you need to hear. Whether you're a parent, an educator, or someone who cares about how communities and public systems can work together. From the branch, made in partnership with the 74 and Midas Touch, Where the Schools Went is out now.
59:40I highly recommend checking it out. Find it wherever you get your podcasts and start listening today. This episode of IMO is brought to you in part by understood.org. If you're a parent of a child with ADHD, dyslexia, or any learning difference, and especially if you're navigating special education as a parent of color, you know it can feel like a maze. There's a podcast from understood.org called Opportunity Gap that's here to help. It's hosted by Julian Saavedra. And in every episode, he talks with special ed teachers, child psychologists, and other experts. They break down things like how to navigate the IEP process, what accommodations your child is entitled to, and how to build a strong relationship with your child's teachers.
1:00:34You know, I checked out the opportunity gap myself, and what stood out to me was how practical and empowering it is. It's a resource that really meets families where they are. It also provides tools to help families build confidence in navigating the challenges of children who learn differently. To listen, just search Opportunity Gap in your podcast app. That's Opportunity Gap.
1:01:07I would be remiss if I didn't ask both of you. We don't know what Shante's situation is, but how can we as men help you all with this process? Remember I said at the convention, do something. See this way I got to do it. Well, I made you have a point. Do something. Okay. Any suggestions, my dear? Just a couple. Do something. You know what I mean? Because we as guys are trying to help, but we don't know how to help. We can barely get ourselves to therapy, right? And we're trying to thug our way through this by, I'm here for you, but I don't know what to do. Sometimes just saying that. Fix me breakfast.
1:01:57Literally. Sometimes just saying that because I feel seen, okay? Okay. You're not just ignoring me. You're not just going on about your way, thugging your way through things. You're going, you know what? I see you're in distress. I just don't know how to help. Then that allows me to go, this is how you can help. Okay. Open dialogue. And you know what I also want? If you're not going to therapy, then I want you to find the place where you're going to keep growing to. That, yes. And you can't grow in your own mind alone, right? Right. So if you if there are issues, you know, and you see me struggling, you know, you can't always fix my struggle.
1:02:43But I would want the men in their lives to take a look at themselves, too. Yeah. Because if we're doing all this work as women, figuring it out, going to therapy, you know, finding our peace, you know, trying to heal our trauma. Then you got to be doing the same thing, too, because it's not just me. It's both of us. It's all of us. So I would say to the men, do the work too. And find the way to do the work in the way that you can do it. And if you can't go to therapy because you're thugging it out, then talk to somebody. Talk to each other. That would be something if that helps. And then throw a load of laundry in the, you know?
1:03:33Make breakfast. You know, I'm not, okay. If it's not you, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't apply, but for the brothers out there, if you can do - He did say the Airbnb, he washed the dirty uniforms. I heard him say that. Thank you. It's nice of you to remember that. No, this has been extraordinarily helpful for me as a man to hear you all be so vulnerable and so authentic with this. Well, and I also can be vulnerable as well. Yes. Be vulnerable. Don't thug your way through everything. Yeah, right. And I think we have to talk, we have to, you know, we have to rip the veil off of these conversations.
1:04:17And talk about what we struggle with. Talk about the help that we're getting. And the help you need. The help you need. And we have to learn how to articulate our pain. Yes. And not be afraid to say, we're hurting, that this is hard, that I'm scared, that I'm tired. And then we want the men in our lives to give us a safe place to land when we do that. Right? Yeah. Maybe there's nothing to fix, but maybe it's just - Listen. Don't make us feel like we're crazy. Right. You know? Right. Right. No, I get it. Yeah. So this has been some heavy stuff. I would like to know, how do you spend your leisure time?
1:05:05Like, what does Taraji P. Henson do when she - Are you in your toy room? I'm in the toy room. When you're not in the toy room. No, I - Do you watch anything? Are you reading anything? What are you doing? I enjoy, I just got a new puppy. Oh. Well, I already have a dog, Buddha. And Buddha just seemed lonely because I can't chase Buddha around. He's a little French bulldog. Okay. And so I got him a friend. Zen, Buddha and Zen. And so right now, that's what occupies my time. And puppy hole is Zen. He's four months. Oh, yeah, real. And Buddha is two. And so right now, they bring me so much joy. So that and, you know, family time.
1:05:52And I love going to visit with family. Like I said, I just came back. I have lots of cousins and, you know, that always lifts my spirits and it gives me the motivation I need to keep going. You know, my family, because I just love my family. I come from a family where as cousins, we all used to sleep on a pallet. Remember that? The blankets. Before the blow up mattresses, we had big blankets on the floor. And so we're really close. So I'm saying that right now Because that's what brought me This joy that I have I'm carrying right now Because I just came back Yeah From seeing them So Yeah And a little birdie tells me That you are a real Housewives fan Is that correct?
1:06:39Did I get that? I do I watch I watch Unscripted is good I love unscripted too Because it makes you forget about your problems Exactly You're like, ooh, they going through that. Exactly.
1:06:57It's just like, mm, they did not. What, girl? No, she didn't. You know, but it's my little secret pleasure. We have our production company, Higher Ground. And a lot of people think that it's all presidential and we're going to do documentaries. and we just came out with unscripted later daters where we - Oh, that's interesting. I like that. Yeah, yeah. So we are, it's a show that couples find love matches for aspirational people over 50, people who look like us. Yes, yes. You know, who are looking for love. I love that. And, you know, it's got this great dating coach, this young woman, Logan Urie.
1:07:43and you just sort of go along that journey. I'm not trying to pump the show, but I'm just saying that people didn't expect us to be doing unscripted. But it's like, well, that's my taste, right? I mean, I love those kind of shows where it's just regular people. I think that maybe that's the sociologist in me that I love watching regular - Human connection. Real interaction. Although my brother says that unscripted isn't real, you know, that real housewives ain't real. They're acting. And we don't even care. We don't care. It's good TV. The most intellectual women that I know, my sister, my wife, my daughter, now you, all watch this stuff.
1:08:34And I am shocked still. I'm always shocked. But I always say, you know, the NBA is like the real, you know, that's reality. But that's reality TV now. But it's still drama. There's drama. There's a lot of drama. There's a lot of drama. It's real. Yeah, this is real, too. These are real situations. I think people manufacture beef. Well, you don't know. They manufacture beef. No, it's produced so you can have an actual beginning, middle, and end. It has to have some kind of structure. Otherwise, it's just chaos. But at the end of the day, those are real issues. It feels like chaos. It feels like chaos.
1:09:10Well, there is chaos. It feels like manufactured chaos. Because there's chaos in friendships. Right. There's chaos in life. Life. There's friction. So what's your favorite franchise? My favorite? Oh, I'm kind of— You watch a little bit of all of them? I watch a little bit of all. So do I, girl! Love a hip-hop. I watch— Oh, I do, too. Oh, my God! I'm so happy! Mama D? Oh, child. Yes! I love it because I know a Mama D. Everybody knows a Mama D. They sure do. If you don't have one in your family, you got a Mama D. Then you lying. You are lying. You're just not recognizing Mama D. I have a Mama D in my family.
1:09:53I ain't going to say who, but. But I'm like that. I tell my husband, I was like, you watch golf. Right. I watch Unscripted. Yes. And it brings me, I don't know. It just settles me down. And you get to talk. And I guess the blackness in us, the call and response. Oh, girl. Because we were saying, I would have said, I would have. Right. I would have, should have. If that was me, uh-uh. Like, talking to the TV. While I'm taking my makeup on. Like, girl, ooh. I would have. I swear to God. Let me be at that dinner. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, I brought this on myself here. I brought it on myself. You sure did.
1:10:34but you made a connection because I would have never thought she would say love. Well, before we end up, and this has been just tremendous and I want to thank you. But before we end up, I'd like to give Shante, just I want to recap the strategies because we hit on some good stuff. Yes. The saying no and the find some therapy somewhere. And your points, your many points, but... Be okay with disappointing people. You know, practice that disappointment and do the work of feeling good about yourself. And that was the one that really stood out to me is you're not just going to automatically feel happy once you say no.
1:11:31You got to keep working. And there will, as I've discovered, there will be backlash to your no. And the guilt that comes with, because you've been saying yes. Did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing? But both of you all said, but after you learned to say no, you realize the world keeps turning. Yeah, absolutely. So once you start to feel comfortable saying no, things are going to reconfigure. And then finally, and this is just on my mental list of the things that I thought were really good outside of getting your men to go ahead and get in therapy, was the, I liked the rejiggering your neurons in your brain.
1:12:16You got to practice different messages to yourself because we have been raised with a different set of messages and that gets imprinted in you in some real ways, just like trauma and pain. All of that is in our systems, right? And it becomes a loop, a negative loop that we can't get out of. And I think for me, I'm trying to recognize that what keeps me from my own peace sometimes is me. Yes. Most of us. Most of us. It's me practicing old messages. And so knowing that I have to affirmatively work at telling myself different things, it's a real practice. Yes. At 61 years old, to reshape the way that I operate in the world has to be mindful, intentional, and done frequently.
1:13:16Yeah, it takes work. It just doesn't go, oh, I did it today. Ha ha, I'm the master. No. Some days are easier than others. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Taraji, thank you. Thank you. So much. You are amazing. Thank you. I love you. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. You are doing it. And just know you got two fans, a whole Airbnb full of fans of folks who are rooting for you every single step of the way.
1:14:03Thank you.
From the publisher
Actress, businesswoman, and mental health advocate Taraji P. Henson joins to talk about setting boundaries, why Michelle didn't attend the inauguration, post-White House therapy, and the glories of the Real Housewives franchise. Plus Craig gets a birthday surprise!
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