Aliko Dangote: Building Africa's industrial future from the ground up

0:00Hi everybody, I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, and today I have a real pleasure sitting down with Aliko Dangote. Aliko is the founder and the CEO of the Dangote Group, Africa's largest industrial conglomerate. Nearly 50 years ago, he started with a small trading firm in Nigeria, and today his empire stretches across the continent. He has built what many said was impossible, a large-scale African industry from scratch. Warm welcome. Thank you very much, Nikola. It's a pleasure having you. It's great to be here.

0:40How did it all start? Well, I started as a trading company in 1978. And what kind of things did you trade? Cement. At that time, I started first with cement. I was getting four or five trucks and trading them there in Lagos. And then later on, I got into fish, into rice, into sugar. And, you know, we started, we continued to expand. My first import of sugar was actually in 1980. Wow. You know, and everything was under import license. So I got a license. And you have family, I mean, your family had been into trading for several generations, right? several generations your grand your grand my great grand uh you know this if you from the maternal side uh my mom's grandfather they call him alhassan dentata he was actually even trading you know nigeria ghana you know and uh he died in 1955 before i was born but he was the richest uh west african at that time during his time and of course my own late grandfather son you see and Tata, he was actually the richest Nigerian too at some point.

1:55And you grew up with your grandfather? I grew up with my grandfather because my father died when I was just about eight years old. What was your grandfather who taught you how to trade? Yes, it was my grandfather who taught me how to trade. He sent me to school and this. But then, actually, I never ever grew with my father. I've never stayed with my father. You know, because when I was born, I was the first grandson. You know, in our tradition, first grandchild will now go and stay with the grandparents. So my sister, my late sister happened to be the first grandchild. So they took her away. And then the next was me, a boy.

2:41So they also took me away. So both me and my sister, we grew up with my own grandparents. Wow. Yes. what's the key to trading well? The key, first of all, is actually discipline. You have to be very, very disciplined. You have to know what to trade in. It's not that you'll be jack of all trades. You must choose what you really want to do for your life. And then you pick up and concentrate on that. And then pleasure and business, they don't mix at all. And that is the kind of discipline that I got. My grandfather used to start working from 6 in the morning. And he worked till late. Had a very simple life.

3:33Some days he drive himself. That is how simple he was. Very disciplined, honest person. I actually took a lot of things from him. What did you take from him? First of all, to be very honest, to make sure that you are fair to everybody, to be also generous. He was very generous. To tell you how generous he was, he gave out all his assets and money before he passed. And then also in terms of business, he has always been very, very, very, very fair. When you say that business and pleasure don't mix, does it mean that you don't like what you do? I love what I do. So when you look at the business, for example, today, right?

4:23Why is it that people see that I work so hard? Do you know why? Because my business is actually my hobby. I take my business as a hobby because if I take it as a job, I won't work this hard. How hard do you work? I work let me give you an example I go to bed maybe sometimes 11 12 but I wake up around 5 in the morning I go to the gym by 7 38 I'm done then I go to my office and I work as hard as any stuff and you are close to 70 now i'm close to 70 yes i'm 69 i turned 69 just uh a month ago actually about three weeks ago i turned to 69 but i think that discipline is good because i don't want to let me tell you something you know nicola for example when I decided to go into industry, you know what I did?

5:28I sold all my properties in the U.S. I had two houses in the U.S., big mansions, and I had a house in the U.K. And I wanted to really sit in Nigeria and concentrate. Why? You know, sometimes when you own a house, a holiday home anywhere, you have to create that time to go and use that property. So now my life is very simple. Wherever I go, I use hotels, I pay. When I leave, nobody will call me and say I have a bus pipe or something is wrong. So I'm committed to what I do. And I just don't do things offhand. I always create a vision. It's just like now we created a vision 20, 30, so that I know I have a target to meet.

6:16I just don't do business on a normal they say no no no all my businesses they are targeted how do you how do you decide which businesses to be in because you could have chosen everything and then you've had a few things and you focus in on fewer things well i first of all look at what do we need as people what is it that we're supposed to be producing and we're importing so we do what you call a you know backward integration which means what we are importing now we produce it you produce what we need and we are now producing things that when you wake up as a human being every morning you must use part of what we produce so that's like cement sugar we do cement but you have also tried you tried flour and you tried textile and you exited that i existed that yes because of the foreign exchange challenges That's why we left the flour mill.

7:13But today, we are very, very good in terms of exports. If you look at it now, part of what we are announcing is that when you invest in any of our business, going forward in the cement, for example, in the refinery, in the petrochemical, in the fertilizer, in the pot, we guarantee to pay you dividend in dollars because we are very well into exports 80 percent of our revenue will be in dollars so that is why we are now saying that look yes you can have a choice if you want for locals we can pay you in nara if you don't want nara you don't we want to the risk. You know, because most foreign investors sometimes when they invest in a company, what actually matters to them is that when they get their dividend, it's difficult to also get money to buy and remit your money.

8:12But we have addressed that issue. We are saying that look, invest. And you generally reinvest the money back into the business? Oh, all our business. Because if you look at them which industries, right from inception to date, we have never, ever paid any dividend if we are going to get dividend we only get it from companies that we listed but companies that are wholly owned by don't go to industries which they are not listed we never ever take a dime out of the company and well but but aliko when you look at the group now what would you say are the let's say three most important decisions you have made that has made this a success?

8:51Actually, major decision is to now go into cement and trying to save a lot of African countries because they are struggling. Cement was selling for$250 a ton in countries like Zambia, in Congo, Brazil, in Nigeria. You have to pay and wait for three months. So we realized that, look, people who are in cement, they are not really serious about making cement available. So we now came in and we have now invested heavily. And you're in 14 countries? We're in 14 countries. Now, again, when you look at oil, in Africa, we have a lot of countries that produce oil, but they don't refine. So they export the crude oil and now they import the products.

9:39And importation costs a lot of money. It actually goes deep into our own reserves. So when I look at Nigeria, for example, today, I say, OK, fine. But we've been having fuel queues for 52 years. Sometimes people used to stay at fuel. During Christmas, you might have to go and queue for two days trying to buy fuel for a country that produces oil. And we have tried government refineries. They are all destroyed. They are not really doing well. So we say, OK, fine. Let me take this bold decision. So then you decide, I'll make a refinery. I decided that I'm going to make a refinery. And let's make the biggest?

10:21The biggest ever. In the world? In the world, ever. 50 % more than the biggest. $20 billion. $20 billion of investment. Tell me about it. So we started with that. We launched the project in 2013. We have had issues of the land for five years. One land, three and a half years. the other land, 100 years, that we have not been able to get even access to it. All this has been blocked by what you call the mafia in oil business to make sure that we don't come and address these issues. But we were not deterred at all. We were actually focused. We knew what we were doing. And, Nicola, when we started, right, the exchange rate of NERA was 156.

11:10We even got up to 1 ,900. But we still went ahead. We had to build our port because there was no port in the country that could take those heavy equipment. One piece was 3 ,000 tons. We have another, which is the regenerator. Then we have another piece, which is the crude distillation unit. That is 2 ,700 tons. So we have almost about 30 of these equipment. And we built the refinery, importing most of these preheaters in modular forms. So you have to build a harbor, you have to build roads. We have to do water. Water is 440 million liters of water, which is treated water. so our water department alone is more than uh let me say in hectare inside is more than 30 hectares how many people worked on this 67 000 people worked on the building of the refinery and it took us this is this is a size that's the size of the town where i grew up well you know but I mean, that is how we had to actually now, because we are building something.

12:27And luckily, let me tell you what you don't know. Luckily for us, we didn't know what we were building. Because if you knew, I was faced with the plan and the drawings all at once, right? I wouldn't have built this refinery. I would have actually chicken out. Really? Yes. Because, I mean, you know, when we started, you know, it's like you started swimming across the ocean. When you get middle of the ocean, you realize that the tide was bad. When you go forward, it's bad. When you go backwards, it's... So you have to walk forward. And that is what we did. We had to just keep working and working and believing that we will deliver.

13:07Where did you get the money from? We got a lot of support. You know, first of all, we were actually meant to fund most of this from our internally generated funds. but because of the devaluation so we had to now rely on Africa's African Bank African Finance Corporation, Zenith Bank, Access Bank, UBA and a couple of some of the local banks but of course we also have a very good relationship with the Standard Bank of South Africa and at the beginning Standard Chartered Bank of UK. we were very very very very lucky and what happened when we finished the refinery things now have turned out to be much more than our own expectations what are you seeing on the back of the crisis in the middle east in terms of that business well actually all your businesses What are you, what's the effect?

14:10Well, the effect on our businesses is actually more of beneficiary than actually downside. Because if you look at urea, where we are producers. Which is the fertilizer. Which is fertilizer. Today, fertilizer is in a very high demand. Not really in the high demand. In February, before the Middle Eastern crisis, we are selling a ton for about$400. dollars today we are selling a ton of you know for$850 and we're actually oversold in plastics polypropylene it has moved from 900 in UK today is about$3 ,000 okay and for us if not because of the polypropylene we are producing today all the plastic industry in Nigeria which they are very huge, they are almost like number two or number three in terms of employment, they would have shut down because there's nowhere you can even get it.

15:12Our aviation was sold till middle of July, and we're producing 20 million liters a day. Where do you source your crude now? We source about 56 % from Nigeria, some from other, Angola. We buy quite from Angola. We buy from Libya. We buy from U.S. At a point, we are doing almost about seven to eight cargoes of WTI from U.S. But we are getting more of Nigeria's crude now. So, you know, we have to buy now 21 cargos every month. That's how big we are. And, you know, we're more than doubling the refinery, you know, in the next 30 months, we'll be at 1.4 million, which is huge. What are the forces which have been trying to work against you in this project?

16:12You mentioned the kind of, you know, the kind of mafia. Well, the people who are actually benefiting, because Nigeria was given almost about$10 billion every year as subsidy. So there are shippers who are making tons of money. There are traders who are making tons of money buying the crude and sending us, you know, product. They use it, they say that, you know, it's a trade which they give you crude and then you supply them with products. There are also the local people because it was subsidized. So a lot of people, very few people are getting allocations. So they are making tons of billions of naira.

16:58So these are the people that are not agreeing for us to settle down because they believe that, no, we are coming here to displace them. which is i mean that's of course that's what we have done now absolutely and now you're going to replace more people because you are planning to do a project in tanzania tanzania uh there are a couple of countries that they say okay look what does happen in the middle east we don't want to rely on the supply anymore from there we need our own refinery so uganda tanzania kenya and some of the other countries like, you know, I mean, Rwanda and Co. When we build the refinery, the same size, 650, we'll be able to serve up to Ethiopia.

17:45Are you going to build all these refineries? Yeah, we're going to. We're going to build. So what's the total spend on this? We have now the group, as a group-wide, we have$45 billion to spend. But I know we're also doing LNG in Nigeria. We're doing a gas infrastructure to remove all the gas We are flowering in the southern part and eastern part, bringing it to the west, where we are setting off an LNG plant. About 12 million tons of LNG. Each train will be about 6 million. How are you going to pipe this together? We are piping from there down, and then we have the gas treatment plant. You know, the Nigerian gas is an associated gas.

18:32so you have to treat it before you can now use it to regasify you know so what we are trying now to do is to make sure that yes we look at our income what is our income stream what is our revenue and what is the EBITDA that we have in between 2026 to 2030 what is the gap that we have what is the another insurance gap that we need to fill and this what you have done that that's why we're coming off with selling part of the business getting more investors into the business and also making sure that we continue to uh you know as late on the business cement going to 100 million tons uh in cement really we don't even need much uh money we are getting financing and the cash generation is very liquid, it's heavy.

19:27So we'll be able to actually fund this 45 billion, which will eventually take us to$100 billion of revenue, because our target is to get$200 billion by 2030. And with a market valuation of maybe more than$200,$250 billion. Because as to speak today, last year our EBITDA was$3 billion. But the target by 2030 is to be 10 times that amount, is to be at over$30 billion of EBITDA.

20:05What's the difference between thinking big and thinking too big? What is the difference between thinking big? Because if you think big, you grow big. When you think small you don't grow at all so you have to first of all know that the business you are going in is a business that you know in and out it's like myself and any of the staff 10 of the top most staff when you work them late at night they will tell you the process of each and every part of our business so uh we don't think small because first of all we know that the market were operating. That's big gap. But how do you make sure you don't over stretch?

20:47No, we don't over stretch because we make sure that whatever that we do on in terms of funding, we can fund it with no sweat. We have a lot of financial institutions that they believe in us. And they are ready to go ahead and back us financially to be able to deliver. That's number one. Number two, they know that we We have history of delivery of projects. So since we have history of delivery of projects, they know that, yes, the Amman is not going to be at risk. We have delivered a refinery that has never, ever been built with petrochemicals. And we managed 67 ,000 workers at site. We built during the most difficult times, which is COVID.

21:31We built in a very difficult environment, which is Nigeria. and we're able to deliver. When we delivered, did we really commission? Did this really work very well? The answer is yes. The refinery has been tested. We have now processed even crude at 661 ,000 barrels per day. So we have demonstrated that capability where now a lot of financial institutions are saying that, yes, if it is Damgote you are doing this project, were there to back you because we know that you can deliver, you have the capacity and you have the knowledge and you have the experience. So now you have 18 businesses in 17 countries.

22:11What are the biggest risks, you think? Well, the biggest risk for us is actually if there are civil war, which is not in the offing at all. The other biggest risk is, you know, government inconsistencies in policies of which we're addressing that one because if you look at like our refinery, the national oil company already owns 7.5%, 7.25%. And they are trying to buy more, while the ones that are saying that no, we want to now spread it and have everybody to be part of. So these are the two biggest risks that we have. The other one was to do with infrastructure. But what we are doing also, I'm going to tell you, the infrastructure we are working with government.

23:05You know what we are doing today? We have roads which they are more than$3 billion which we are building. So the issue is that because our taxes, our companies are doing well, so the taxes are high. Because you're the biggest taxpayer in Nigeria. We are, yes. So now what we are doing is that we are building roads. When we build the infrastructure as roads, there is a government policy where they allow us to depray what we have invested in the roads over a period of three years. First year, we take 50 percent. Second year, 25 percent. Third year, 25. So we don't really wait for government to give us that infrastructure.

23:44We are now building the infrastructure to be able to absorb the kind of businesses that we are doing. And not only for us, for the other investors in Nigeria. But what are the challenges when you are the biggest employer in the country, you are the biggest taxpayer, and you are dependent on the government? What are the challenges operating in that environment? We are not dependent really on the government. No, because if you look at it, it's like anywhere in the world. Today, people who are operating in America, for example, tomorrow morning, if Mr. Trump wakes up from the wrong side of the bed, he can bring a regulation that can either help them or try to slow them down, which I think today those things are changing.

24:34Even in Africa, because the governments, they believe that the only way for them to create jobs to create employment is through the private sector because the government is already full to capacity. They don't have the resources to do that. But depending on the private sector, where now you give very good investment policies, right? Giving those good investment policies, it means that it has made the governments to be partners. How are they partners? You know, today, if I run the business, even when I don't make money, have generated a revenue where the government will collect VAT and they collected minimum taxation.

25:16So government in some of this, like our cement business, I keep telling people that government is making more money than us because of the various taxes that we pay. But we're happy because we're also growing. So we're okay with that. We want to also behave and be a good, socially responsible company. And that's what we are. So it is a partnership where government will now give very good investment policies, good regulation, and making sure that, yes, we also don't abuse the system, which we don't. What is it that foreign investors don't understand when it comes to doing business in Africa? What they don't really understand, there's one thing that really is buffling them.

26:00that, okay, fine, if what you are saying is good, how come we Africans are not investing in our own economies? Because the mistakes that we've been making in the past is that we are looking for foreign investors. But foreign investors are only attracted by domestic investors. And that's what we are doing today, Nicola. Because if you look at it, we are investing heavily. I mean, we don't even take money out of the business. So majority of companies today, I can just mention a few, like Adnok, were in a very big discussion with them. And we want to have a very serious partnership in fertilizer, in the oil business, and in any other businesses like infrastructure.

26:48People are looking at infrastructure. that's why we're building a the biggest deepest port in Africa in just about 60 kilometers away from Lagos so these are the sort of things that we are doing which I believe now the government also themselves they realize that look for me to deliver on my electorate promises I have to work with the private sector so So that has actually given us an insurance because if the government disrupts any of our business, they will be the first ones to suffer before us. How different are the African countries in terms of culture and company culture? And how different is it to do business in the various countries?

27:33It's not really very difficult because it depends on what kind of culture you try to create in your own organization. If you have a very solid organization, you have very good culturally trained staff, it's as good as being operating anywhere in the world. So, I mean, there's actually no issues about that at all. You know, like what I told you, we just don't go and pick up people from the streets and employ them. No. We have an academy. We have graduate training. These are people that we employ the best of the best in universities, and we put them through what you call graduate training. And once they are, you know, we have always been giving them a choice, to be fair, because we are the big corporation in the country or even in the continent.

28:24We are saying that, look, if you are happy, stay with us. You have a guaranteed job. But after you are training, you might as well, even if you have a better offer from Shell or any other company, you can go there. So we're actually contributing to the national development of the country. And now we are in 14 African countries. What we always do also is to go to these 14 African countries and bring them in to train them. We have also what you call young global leaders, which have now trained over 200 Africans. And it costs us a lot of money because it's in partnership with the World Economic Forum.

29:09So World Economic Forum, they are doing this thing for Africans. They are giving Africans only five slots. So I say that, no, increase it to 25 to 30 and then the Foundation will pay the bill. So what you have now, I think it's a project that is costing us about 650 ,000, 700 ,000 Swiss pranks every year. And we're picking up people that we don't even know. Some of them, you know, but you have to be below 40. Some of them are ministers. So they go now and join these young global leaders, you know, with a very, very good decision. And they are very happy. We have... But when you look at the demographics of Nigeria and Africa, you would need a lot of young leaders.

29:53We have. I mean, Nigeria, I mean, in Africa, by 2030, we'll have almost 1.6 billion working staff. These are young people. In Africa, majority of our population, they are below 30. More than 70%. When you think about that, what are your reflections? My reflection is that the future is Africa. When you now sit down, you reflect where we are today. And what needs to happen for the future to be Africa? A heavy investment in infrastructure, in training, education first, because you have to work with an educated society of which a lot of the governments, they are putting average over 15, some of them even 20 % of their budget into education.

30:46You know, because we have to upskill to make sure that, yes, we are producing the workers that we need for tomorrow. What are the most promising countries from that point of view? The promising countries, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda is small, but it's very, very promising. You have Egypt is promising. Algeria is also promising, even though they are not very open. So there are more than 10 very good countries in Africa that can go and invest. Ghana is doing extremely well. Côte d 'Ivoire, which is, you know, in West Africa, they are doing extremely very well. Even Guinea today, you look at the mines that was just opened by Rio Tinto, which costs over 20 billion dollars you know so people are coming in now they realize that yes africa is open for business and people are ready to go into these sectors and who is who is helping africa with business now can you just reflect a bit on china versus the us versus europe But honestly, you want me to be very open.

32:08Totally. Yeah. So it's China. China really have dominated business in Africa. And how do you... Because of the absence of the others. Yeah. How do you see that? Well, they are making money. Yeah. They are dominating the landscape. And obviously, you know, Africans, you know, even our own governments, They don't joke with China because China, they put their balance sheet on the table. So some examples of how China has helped you. Okay, let me, some of the projects like in cement, like some of the things that we do, purchase of their equipment and core, they give you a supplier's credit backed by their insurance company, which is called Sino Show.

32:56Sanesho has invested, to talk about$1.2 trillion, in supporting their companies to go abroad and sell their technology, sell their equipment, and giving you a credit of four, five years. But if you are now going to now, if I now go to Italy, for example, and they're asking me to write a check of a power plant of$500 million that I want to, you know, build. And I have one which is also good, might not be even as good as Italy, okay? But the Chinese are saying that, no, no, no, just give me 20%. The rest, I will give you five years, you know, financing. Which one are you going to take if you are in my shoes?

33:49Obviously, you take the Chinese one because the Chinese one, it means that I can do more. These ones, they will suck out my cash and I won't be able to do more. So for me to grow that big, I also need to leverage. I'm not going to over leverage, but I need to leverage the business to be able to get to where I want to be. And where we want to be is something very, very, very big. You know, we want to do pause. We're spending$45 billion between 2026 and 2030. So if I'm going to, you know, obviously I will lean more to this. But right now today, I've seen that U.S. is also changing. This time around when I went to Deployment Financial, Finance Corporation of U.S., they just got about$208 billion.

34:40They are very hungry for infrastructure. They are very hungry for the force. And they are ready to land. so with that one then they are ready for us to now look at them and do more business I've had delegation of some people from the you know house of reps of I mean the assembly of Japan and what I told them is that no Japan you'll be missing for a very long time today when you are coming make sure that you come with your own balance sheet on the table because we have choices of buying from many other countries. But if you don't really come with that support, I have to go to a country that can give me that support for me to be able to leapfrog to the next level.

35:31Yeah, I can see that. Do you think it's possible to increase efficiency in Africa without increasing inequality? Well, the inequality issue we have to address. It will be very difficult to do that without addressing the issue of inequality. And that when I think various governments of Africa, they are working towards that. And I'm sure we'll get there. And climate? Well, the climate, you know, when you look at, we are not the biggest polluters. In those whole thing, we are less than 6 % of the polluting the environment. So we're doing quite a lot. You can see... But it's difficult. I mean, cement production is difficult, right?

36:16Yeah, but we have quite a lot in cement today. Nicola, it's not like before. If you come to our cement plant, even under the kiln that is moving, rotating, you can sit down there and eat.

36:32The process that we have is more stringent than that of even Europe. In our own plants, we are using robotic machines. We are using the dust emission is very low. We are using alternative fuel to make sure that we cut down all this. And if you look at it now, what are we doing today? You know, the biggest polluters are shipping companies. So we are stopping almost maybe 500 ships from going in there to pick up crude, to go and refine, to now bring back the, you know, products. today as we speak almost all our trucks maybe 90 % today of our trucks are all CNG we're not using diesel even though we produce diesel but we are using cleaner energy for that we're looking at now not only generating power from hydro and gas.

37:34We're also doing solar and wind. Because we have massive land, especially in the northern part of Nigeria. So in every aspect of our own business, which is also driven by the government, is to see how do we actually, because this climate change is real. But with us, we have a lot of issues to address first before we now get to that. So what we are doing now, we are doing them simultaneously, trying to provide for our needs at the same time working on the climate. Because, I mean, today we can't just say that, hey, look, climate from today, we will not do this, we will not know. But what we are doing is that, yes, we are providing what we need, but at the same time, bringing in the climate issues into place so that we will be out of these climate change issues.

38:36Ali, let's move on to leadership. When I talk to people about you, one word that comes up again and again is patience. What's the key to patience? The key to patience, first of all, we have very good people that we are leading in the organization. So sometimes you have to be very patient for people to be able to pick up and be able to prepare themselves for that leadership. So we're preparing a lot of our people to be able to take over that leadership. And that's why we have to have the patience in terms of, okay, fine. Somebody will just not start running first day. So my leadership style is to make sure that, for example, when I'm hiring people, I always hire people who are more intelligent than me.

39:25well I don't I don't I doubt that but how can you check whether I'm a patient guy so now you're interviewing me what do you ask for well you know if I'm going to have this you know in the interview that's why we just don't do interview through uh the zoom or whatever no no we have to first of all sit down with you and talk to you you know you can also ask us questions but what you are looking for is to have that chemistry we have to now make sure that we align We have the same thinking, and you are not thinking of something totally different. You are not thinking of being socialist, for example, or we are thinking about being capitalist.

40:06So that chemistry has to come in. Are you more patient now than when you were younger? To tell you the truth, let me be very honest with you. I'm more aggressive now. Why? Why? Because I've seen a lot of opportunities that I've never, ever knew that they exist. Wow. Never. I've never, ever. I told people that I've never, ever dreamt of my own company. I've been an ambitious person, right, from childhood. But I've never, ever thought of my company being 10 % of where we are today. And we still have a lot of, you know, opportunities to go. Because I look at, like, China. I mean, look at a country, for example, like Singapore.

40:52They don't have natural resources. They don't have land. They don't have anything. But they've been able to create something out of nothing. So when you look at the opportunities that you didn't see before, what are they? Oh, a lot. A lot. I mean, we have the critical minerals. Africa controls about 60 % of the world's critical minerals. we have young energetic population we have the most arable land in the world 60 % of the arable land of the world is there okay we have landmass so all this one and the minerals that we have we are not actually processing any one of them So the opportunities are enormous.

41:42A lot of now you look at what happened now between Ukraine and Russia. European countries are now ready to see where can they get their energy from, like LNG, for example. Nigeria, what I keep telling people, is not a country that we don't have oil. the oil that we have is not as good as not as much as the gas that we have most of nigeria's oil i mean gas came out by accident as a result of looking for oil so when we go now deep looking for gas nigeria can be one of the biggest suppliers of lng in the world and that's why now we want to do a gas pipeline which the government is promoting and they want us to join taking gas now all the from Nigeria around up to Spain by the coast side so now we are already in Ghana so Ghana the next phase will be Kodobwa Kodobwa Mauritania where they would inject their own gas then Senegal too will inject their own gas then we jump into Europe so going forward Africa will be supplier of most of these criticals, critical items.

43:03What do you think is driving you now? I mean, you're already the wealthiest guy in Africa. What is driving me is legacy, actually. It's not about being, you know, richest because, I mean, I don't have too much of needs, you know. I mean, that's why, I mean, today, okay, I'm restricted. I cannot just do the giving pledge where I now. I pledge all my wealth to this, you know, in my religion, Islam, it does not allow for that unless if the inheritors agree with you. But I have given now one third of my wealth to the foundation. If anything happens to me, now one third will automatically go to my, you know, foundation.

43:46But what is driving me the most is that we have a lot of needs in Africa. and for people like us, for corporations like us, we are the ones that are supposed to provide that leadership in terms of transforming the economies of Africa. If we don't, we'll not be able to get support from anywhere. We have been waiting for long for foreign investors to come and invest and actually show what are the potentials of Africa. But today, we are the ones that will end up showing people that these are the potentials. And I personally believe that by doing so, a lot of corporations will join us in funding this massive infrastructure that will make Africa to be at the next level.

44:40What do you hope your legacy will be? My legacy will be that I'm one of the ones that actually pioneered the industrialization of Africa. That's my focus, to make sure that Africa produces what we consume. This is my main focus. And for us to keep pushing, to make sure that we have one common market. I have a group which is called the African Renaissance. And they acquired any big guy in Africa. 54 of us were in this group, which we meet physically once in a year in Rwanda, which is Kigali. And we've been supported by a lot of presidents. And I think the more they understand what we are trying to do, the more that we'll achieve.

45:31You know, because nobody can transform our continent but us, we Africans. and that is why we are trying to mobilize all the entrepreneurs to make sure that they join us at different levels. Some will be doing big things, some will be doing medium things, some will be doing, you know, this and then. That one will attract foreign investment. Because we don't have enough to be able to provide and take the continent to the next level. How do you use your foundation to try to improve the continent? Well, the foundation's work, you know, the foundation about 2014, I did an endowment of$1.25 billion.

46:15So what we are now doing mostly is actually partnership. I think if I'm right, based on what Bill Gates told me, he said that we are one of the best partners they've had as a foundation. You know, being able to eradicate polio and we're working on quite a lot of things, you know, primary health care, nutrition. These are areas that we're working with them. In some areas in education, we are doing that on our own. But as we speak right now, my head of foundation, she's in Saudi Arabia, trying to work with other foundations to see how do we really attract. Because we have, unfortunately, in Nigeria, we have almost about more than 10 million kids out of school.

47:07So we're investing heavily in terms of education. And as we grow more, we'll keep funding the foundation to be able to take care of all this poverty, alleviation, health, empowerment of people, and also education. So these are the areas that we're really focusing. How do you relax? How do I relax? I try to sometimes take my grandkids, if they're around, take them to the beach. I love going to the beach but I love also what do you do what do you do at the beach we just go there and play that's what you do talking of player you're a big Arsenal fan you nearly bought the team right I almost almost yes and tell me about it well you know you had to make a choice when when when I was really very very focused on buying Arsenal then I was also facing the challenge of making sure the refinery gets to its own completion, the fertilizer, the photochemical.

48:13And then when I look at it at that time, I say, okay, fine, but I have needs of funds. Will I go and put, at that time, Arsenal was worth just about$2 billion. Should I put my$2 billion in Arsenal and now allow the business to suffer? Or should I now complete the business? Then I can continue to remain a very big supporter of Arsenal. So I decided that, no, I'm going to continue to support them, watch their games, go there. And I am an Arsenal fan rather than now trying to take my… Do you have a scarf? You have a red and white scarf? Yeah, I have. Even, you know, the T-shirt. Every day, any time that they are playing, I always wear the T-shirt.

48:52And I have one, you know, which was also signed up by the captain. So, I mean, I'm a fan. And it's better for me to remain as a fan and continue to fund my own business. rather than just putting, I mean, today they are worth billions and it's not really worth my while at all. What is your advice to young African people? My own advice to young African people is to work hard and also have the belief that the future is greater than the current situation that we're in. That Africa is a promised sin land and they should stay at home and make sure that we collectively build our continent. rather than just flying out somewhere else.

49:38Aliko, it's been amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here.