Disney CEO: Legacy, Creativity and the Magic of Storytelling

0:00Hi everyone, I'm Nikolaj Tangen, the CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management Management Management. And today we're diving into the magical world of Disney, a company where we are the lucky owner of more than 1%. And I'm here with Bob Iger, the visionary leader who transformed Disney into a global entertainment powerhouse, leading bold acquisitions like Pixar, Marvel, and 21st Century Fox. Bob, warm welcome. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. No, I think no other company has made so many people laugh and cry over more than 100 years. So in your mind, what is it that makes Disney so special?

0:37Well, I think, first of all, the fact that we've touched people's hearts for, as you cited, over 100 years is meaningful. Because when you tell stories that have the kind of effect that our stories have on people, they become memorable. They become part of the fabric of people's lives. And there are also stories that are frequently shared with other people. So you have basically a number of people enjoying our stories together. And that also, I think, compounds the impact of our storytelling. We've also managed to stick to our core values. And I think that's really important. You know what you're going to get when you see the name Disney on a product.

1:21And I think that goes a long way to enabling us to be relevant for over a century. So how does it feel to run a company which is kind of part of the fabric of human history? Well, it is certainly something that I'm aware of because with it comes a responsibility not just to maintain and to continue to strengthen the legacy of the company, but also to entertain at the highest level of quality. There's such an expectation from our consumers around the world that you have to live up to and at times even work to exceed expectations. And I think with that, again, comes, I wouldn't call it a burden because it's a responsibility that we all eagerly accept, but we're certainly well aware of our need to serve consumers' expectations.

2:13Why do you think we're still so drawn to these imaginary worlds? Well, as Walt Disney used to say, people often like to either experience things or hear stories told that enables them to essentially distance themselves from their daily lives and their daily responsibilities. There's an escapist quality. But I think in many other respects with Disney stories, there are things like relatability, common experiences that are reflected in our storytelling. There's the whole notion of fantasy and igniting people's imagination and creating magic. there's also I think something that's very very unique to Disney and that is that we make things that can be enjoyed by multiple generations all at once if you go to our theme parks you see that grandparents and parents and their children for instance time and time again and I think that is very very unique in terms of the way in which people engage with the product that we create Is that something you have to do more and more to build in appealing things for several generations?

3:24It just strikes me when I watch things like Finding Nemo. You have built in so many layers of complexity that appeals to so many different type of people. We try to essentially tell stories that are as accessible as possible and that best reflect the world that we are telling stories to. I think that's really quite critical. And why do you think, so a common denominator here is like, you know, the underdog who wants to become a hero. Yes. I think that, you know, many aspects of our storytelling that resonates. One is basically multi-generational experience. Another is just the fact that we try to tell stories where we show respect for elders.

4:08For instance, you certainly saw that in like a movie like Up by Pixar or Coco, which is also a Pixar movie. We like heroes' journeys. We know that people love to both root for the underdog, but also cheer on the hero as the hero is, you know, basically going on some adventure or seeking to conquer evil, you name it. I think the hero's journey is a very, very important part of it. But we also like to infuse in our stories the importance not just of family, but of friendship, really important, and also elements of great surprise. But I think more than anything else, stories that create a sense of wonder, that make people smile, feel happy, and feel good about the world that they live in.

4:54Do you feel that you have a responsibility to promote positive values as a firm? Very much so, yes. I think, and I don't view it as a burden, but I do view it as critical in terms of, you know, maintaining the strength and the legacy of Disney. And that is basically to be really responsible in how we tell stories, how we depict situations or characters or just general circumstances. Very, very important. Yes. There's a lot of responsibility that comes with just putting the Disney name on something that we've created. So you created these incredible characters, which are so important for our culture.

5:37And in a way, it's a bit like the music history, where some people control the back catalogs. Do you think it's right that one company should own it, or should it belong to humankind? Or just what do you think? Well, that's an interesting question. Well, obviously, we have to serve both our customers and our shareholders. And when we put our shareholders add on, owning is critical because that gives us the ability to obviously monetize or capitalize financially on great creativity. I don't think we have a monopoly on it, by the way. There are many, particularly in today's world, thanks to technology.

6:14Almost everyone's a creator, but there's more that is being created. So there's more competition than ever before. So I don't feel that we in any way have cornered the market on this. I think we are a leader in terms of storytelling in the world, but I don't think we've cornered the market.

6:35If we touch on the culture at Disney, how much is left of Walt in the Disney company? Well, that's a very, very good question. By the way, his office still exists. You never met him, right? He died in the 60s? No, he died in the mid-60s, since 1966. I joined the company in, well, it was ABC then, 1974, became Disney. We were acquired by Disney in the 90s. Now, I never met Walt. By the way, I meet people occasionally that did. Just, by the way, last week I was at Disneyland, and I met an employee that had been with the company for 62 years. Wow. And when I asked him what the highlight of his career was, he said, having lunch with Walt Disney.

7:18Of course, then I sat down with him and wanted to know all about it because I'm always very curious about Walt. I think Walt, you know, obviously is responsible for creating, you know, what Disney was and in many respects what Disney is, which is this fondness for storytelling and the knowledge of how valuable and how important it can be in the world. I think he was aware, as I am aware, that the world needs great storytelling. I could argue that maybe today that need is greater than ever before. And serving a world's need to be entertained at the highest level and to hear and experience stories at the highest level, I think is a worthy cause.

8:00And we still adhere to that principle of high values infused in our storytelling, of the knowledge that, you know, our sole purpose, really, our main purpose is to tell great stories that touch people's hearts and inspire them. all over the world. So in many respects, it hasn't, Walt's legacy still exists. The other thing that still exists is Walt was, I know you want to talk about this as it relates to technology, but Walt loved the use of technology in terms of enabling him to tell better stories and embrace technology readily to do that and to serve the purpose of the storyteller. That spirit still very much exists at the company as well.

8:43He also was a great risk taker. And in today's world, but maybe you could argue in Walt's world too, taking risks becomes a critical part of a business, particularly in a world that's changing so fast and being so disruptive. What do you think he would have made of today's technology? As far as I have been told by people who knew him and from everything that I have read, and I've certainly read just about every history book on Walt and on the Disney company, he just loved technology. First of all, he had a wonderfully curious mind, which is also very critical, by the way. And I think with that, he wanted to learn, experiment, practice, discover, particularly how technology ultimately can enable him to tell better stories.

9:34It just excited him greatly. And I always exhort people to basically follow a similar path. So I think he would be really, I think, motivated in many respects by technology today and not daunted by it. I think he was one who believed when he saw or heard about technology, he immediately saw opportunity instead of threat. And he viewed technology as an asset, not a liability. And I've tried really hard for that to be an element of the Disney culture, the embrace of technology and the ability to try and experiment with the application of technology in all of our businesses. Now, you say things like, dream big, anything can happen.

10:17Now, these are, in a way, quite American values. Do you think the company could ever have been founded in Europe? What was inspired is some of his earliest, greatest stories were inspired by the great European storytellers of the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen, for instance. So I think he had a respect. He also, he liked to travel and he traveled around Europe. And in many respects, some things that he built at Disneyland came from his inspiration, the inspiration that he got through traveling and learning about cultures and learning about places. and wanting the world to feel like a one world instead of basically a world that was completely broken up.

11:06What's the key to managing creative genesis? Empathy is the biggest key. You have to understand that when a creator has pitched you a great story and you've given them the ability to go out and tell that story. You've given them the resources, the money, the tools, the place to tell that story. That story is often coming from within them. It's a passion of theirs. It is the invention of their own mind and their own heart. And you have to understand then just how delicate it is to manage someone who is essentially creating something that comes from within them that is inherently theirs. And while we have a responsibility on behalf of the company to make sure that they're telling their stories right and that they're pursuing the extent possible perfection in terms of storytelling, and that sometimes requires us to lean on them more in order to get the results that we want, you have to always do so by putting yourself in their shoes.

12:12That's the most critical. And then also understanding that creativity is not something that's reduced to math or science. It's extremely unpredictable. There's an inherent risk involved in all creativity. And therefore, you have to know not just how to appreciate success that great creativity can generate, but also to process basically the failures and not point fingers and not second guess and not be ultra critical. when a creative idea fails. So creative people go through these creative spurs, right? And they can last for some time and then you go through a slower period. What do you do when people kind of go through periods where there is no creativity coming out?

12:56How long time do you give them before you expect to see something more? That's a good question. I'm a big believer in giving people second chances for what I'll call honest mistakes and not giving people second chances when there's a transgression, a complete lapse of judgment, or in some form or another, a breakdown of integrity. When it comes to creativity, I think everyone's had a failure at some point in their lives if they're a creator. I don't care who they are. And that includes great composers and great artists and you name it. Great singers have had bad songs and painters have had bad pictures and I could go on and on.

13:38But sometimes just right after a big failure comes a huge hit. And so I try to be patient with people that are creating, that deliver something that is less than we had hoped for or expected. Now, if it persists, obviously, if someone has essentially completely lost their creative way, then obviously you tend not to allow them to create again on your behalf. Who's the most creative person you ever met? Oh, I've been really fortunate in my life to have met some wonderfully creative people from artists to animators to performers. I don't know if I could I don't know if I could name just one, but I met many.

14:24And I'm lucky in that regard, including, you know, I could argue, you know, Paul McCartney, for instance, one of the most creative people I've ever met. For instance, Steven Spielberg would easily be another one. Great people that work at Disney. I don't want to single any one of those out because I have so many of them. But I've been lucky in my life, particularly in this job, to have not only met, but have actually done business with or been engaged with some of the great creators of our time. I mean, you're widely considered one of the most successful CEOs. Are you yourself creative? I don't consider myself a creator.

15:01I consider myself someone that loves creativity, that appreciates it, that for the most part, I think I know good from bad. I know when I see something and it's really good or great. And I know when I see something that isn't. I think I put myself more in an editor's category than in a creator category, where I can lend an eye, hopefully an objective eye, to some piece of creativity and give input as more an editor than anything else to the creator to help them improve the quality of their creation. But I'm not a creator. Now, there is a lot of money going into new production. They are very expensive, right?

15:46They are complex, big expectations and so on, big committees. These processes and projects, are they producing the same type of excitement and creativity as before? Or is the whole thing just becoming more committee-based, predictable, duller? What do you think? Well, I certainly would object to that. First of all, we try not to approach creativity on a committee basis. There are often different voices that weigh in on it. But in the end, it's typically one creator's voice that has to basically rule the day. I don't think you can create by committee at all, nor can you create by checking boxes, meaning for someone's creativity, does it meet all these standards?

16:35And then you get surprised by something or does it meet all this criteria? You get surprised by something that may not, but is equally good. So I don't like committee approach to it at all. I think in this world where so much is being created, I don't, while one could argue it's kind of diluted the quality of creativity, I think you could also argue that today's technology, mostly to produce and distribute creativity, is so much more powerful than yesterday's that it's enabling much more creativity and not less. Now, maybe the quality is diluted a bit because so much more is being made, but I still see examples constantly of wonderful creativity.

17:25And just thinking about our company, Inside Out 2 would be a great example of that. And by the way, that's a sequel to a movie that was made nine or ten years ago. Fantastically creative and very successful commercially as well. film. Shogun, a TV series that we produced as a, for instance, incredibly creative. Deadpool and Wolverine, a Marvel movie, extremely creative. And I could go on and on. So I don't worry about a world in which creativity is more dull or more diluted. There's still so many creative geniuses in this world. And I don't think in any way the world today is reducing the number of creative geniuses.

18:16I might argue that it is bringing out their genius because technology has enabled more people to create than ever before and to put their creativity into other people's hands. Now, you've been first at ABC, but then in the whole kind of Disney company for 50 years. Are you able to predict what's going to be good or bad? And then when was the last time you were really surprised? Either that something failed that you thought was going to be fantastic or the opposite. Occasionally, I see something that's really good that ends up surprising me on the upside because it resonates a lot more than even I thought it might.

18:58For some reason, that happens more often than the opposite, than seeing something that failed where I didn't think it would fail. But as we get older, are we less in tune with the general public? Well, one of the things that we get paid to do in these jobs is to stay in tune. I guess you could argue that the older you get, the harder it is. But I tried. So I don't. I mean, a good executive, meaning good at managing creativity, and good at enabling creators, has done a lot of work to keep their finger on kind of the pulse of the world. And while I don't consider myself the world's greatest expert on today's culture, I certainly have a number of touch points into the culture that enable me to understand and appreciate it more.

19:55By the way, some of it is personal. I have five grandchildren, where the youngest is eight and the oldest is 16, for instance, just spending time with them. We also have generations of people working for the company. I'm 73 years old. I've been around 50 years. I engage with people at the company that are 50 years younger than I am, that are closer to today's culture than I am. But I also make it a part of my daily routine, really, to access, I'll call it, new culture. You know, and whether it's watching, you know, short form videos or user generated content or engaging in social platforms, trying to maintain relevance or trying to understand really what is what resonates in today's world.

20:43And, you know, I think it's critical that our product resonates as well. And sometimes it obviously or often it requires us to be, you know, really aware of consumer trends, consumer interests and disruption in terms of people's tastes and how people are spending their time being entertained.

21:13Bob, what makes a great leader? Well, I think there are a number of things that go into becoming or being a great leader. One I talked about a little bit, and that's having the ability to balance heritage and innovation. And I think that's critical. It's knowing basically how to innovate, even though you're surrounded in a way by legacy. That's really important. Similar in nature, you have to have a foot in the present and a foot in the future at all times. You have to obviously spend time managing your business for today, make sure that it's peak quality, efficiency, et cetera. But you also have to be looking around the corner at what business opportunities or where your business might go tomorrow.

22:03If you have two feet in the future, then you're not managing your business enough in the present. If you have two feet in the present, then you're not preparing your company or yourself for the future. So that balance is really important. And we talked about having empathy. I think I try not just with creators, but for many people to put myself in their shoes to understand what they're experiencing. I also feel, certainly at Disney, a great leader has to have a deep appreciation and respect for creators and the creative process. That's critical. I also, and I talk about this a lot, you have to be an optimist.

22:40People don't want to follow pessimists. A dose of realism is often critical to get people motivated and to energize them a bit, but always by maintaining a sense of hope. You mentioned it's important to be an optimist. I've heard you say that you have absolutely no fear. I guess I was kind of lucky. I'm not an overly anxious person. And I used to joke every once in a while and say I wasn't born with a fear gene. Like any human being has some element of fear within them. But fear doesn't guide me at all. I'm guided more by opportunity, by a desire to discover and to experiment. And I think actually when I describe great leaders, I think it's having someone who's really curious, who wants to innovate, who wants to discover, who wants to know what's around the corner and is not just looking at the past or even the present, but is kind of looking at all of those things.

23:42Also, it's clear a leader's got to have a lot of ability to really focus, to set priorities and stick to them, and to be decisive. No one wants a leader that is not capable of making decisions on a timely basis. That creates so much destruction when it comes to productivity. Yeah, I've heard you say the ability to act is important. But how important is energy? because you are up, is it right? You're up just after four o 'clock every day? Yes, that's correct. I mean, that's the type of time only bakers have used on their alarm clock, you know? Well, we can talk about that. There's a reason that I get up early, not just how I'm wired, but it serves a great purpose.

24:31But before I get to that, I think you mentioned the word energy. I don't talk about it that much. It's great that you brought that up because a great leader has to be an energetic leader, too. Look, I'm a human being. So if I'm really tired from global travel and long hours and who knows what, I'm not afraid to to show that to my people, because I think that's sort of a way of being relatable. They feel that too. It's human nature sometimes to feel overworked and tired. But I think you have to bring, for the most part, you've got to bring your energy to your job every moment of the day, meaning every waking hour.

25:14Because energy is motivating. Where does energy come from? It's a very under-researched phenomenon in leadership. What is it? I think it's a lot of things. I think some of it is how you're wired as genes. Some of it is how you're prepared. So staying in shape, having stamina is critical for me, and that's eating well and exercising and just taking care of my body and my mind is really important. I could not do this job if I were not in some form of physical and even mental health. Do you drink wine? I do. I like wine. I like a good glass of wine. I'm drinking less these days. Maybe it has to do with my age.

26:00But yeah, my good glass of wine relaxes me. But I'm moderate when it comes to most things, I think. But I think it's important in terms of the routine, because one could argue that I'm not getting enough sleep. But that morning time for me is rejuvenating, actually. First of all, it's meditative. It's quiet. The stimulation that exists in my life when it's still dark out and no one else is up is toned down. And so I get a chance to be alone with my thoughts. And that gives me an opportunity to order things, meaning to figure out an order and a set of priorities. It gives me an opportunity to think more creatively.

26:47Again, I'm not seriously a creator, but just in terms of speeches I'm going to give, discussions I'm going to have with my people. It just is a way that I begin the day with more purpose. Instead of waking up and suddenly being bombarded by all the incoming that comes my way, I can attack the world and the day just with a little bit more organization. So what do you do? You wake up, you put on your dressing gown, you go down to the kitchen, make a cup of coffee? Or what do you do? I usually, it's funny, I've reversed this since I came back to Disney. I have a cup of coffee first. Yes, I go down to the kitchen, set the coffee maker in the night before.

27:29So there's a timer. I have my coffee. And then I put on my workout clothes that I work out at the house almost every day. And I do the same thing when I'm in a hotel anywhere in the world. How long do you work out for? I work out for about an hour every morning. Wow. Sometimes less, but rarely less than 45 minutes. And it's, again, I like to say that it's for sanity and vanity purposes. It enables me, as I said, to clear my head, but I also, you know, enables and better repair my mind and my body for the job at hand. But, you know, there's a vanity side to it, too. Sure. When do you go to bed?

28:12I go to bed between 10 and 11 most nights.

28:20moving on to technology we talked a bit about it and you know you've been around for 100 years the company that is i i read that only 45 companies out of 1 million survive 100 years so it's it's pretty amazing right so what do you think is the key to surviving for 100 years I've thought about this a lot. And like you, I've studied basically great brands and companies and longevity and tried to understand why did some fail and why did some succeed for years and years, including studying the great brands of the world going all the way back to the 1920s and 30s. and certainly in my lifetime, the 50s and 60s and 70s.

29:10You know, there were great brands. You were born in the 60s. You probably could name a bunch in the 70s or maybe even the 60s, although you were young. What happened to them? Why did they not maintain their relevance and their economic success as well? And why did others succeed? And what I've concluded is, and it's quite interesting, The world is changing so fast, and I'm sure that's been the case for decades, and in such profound ways that there's a tendency in order to maintain relevance in a world that may not look anything like the world that existed when a company or a brand was created.

29:51Companies have a tendency to maintain relevance to abandon core values. And that becomes the death of the company. So what I've tried to do is understand what are the core values of Disney? Most of it we've talked about, which is basically what do we put into our storytelling, the value of creativity, the fact that it drives everything at Disney. But then it's critical to present those core values in more relevant ways. So sometimes it's not about the story you tell. It's how does it look on screen? Are you using, and Pixar is a great example, computer generated animation versus hand-drawn animation.

30:37Hand-drawn animation looked old. It looked less relevant. Computer generation, particularly to new generations of people, looked newer, more modern, more of today or of their lives when they were consuming it. That's just an application of technology to tell sometimes the same story, but in a visually more relevant way. Another thing that creates relevance is how you distribute your product. How is your customer getting access to it? And then how is the customer consuming it? So in our case, great example would be streaming, which is a modern way of distributing a story. The same story, by the way, it's interesting.

31:19If you go to Disney Plus today, you'll see Snow White from 1937 or a Mickey Mouse short from 1928. Same story, but distributed in modern technology and then ultimately consumed on a modern device. How do you think AI will change what you're doing? Well, we think about this a lot. And I think it's really, really important for companies to act responsibly in this regard, because I think there's more that we don't know than we know. And I think proceeding with caution is critical when it comes to AI. We view technology as enabling us to really do three things. We've just talked about make our stories better.

32:03Second, make them more relevant to consumers in terms of how they're distributed and consumed. So that's basically improving the relationship of the consumer. And the last part is just making the company more efficient. I believe AI will enable all of that. It will be a powerful tool to enable in the hands of a great storyteller to enable that storyteller to tell better stories. In addition, more efficiency, and I think ultimately enable us to gain more access to and have a closer, maybe more intimate relationship with our customers. What I don't want to accept is that it ultimately will destroy human creativity.

32:49And I think as a company, we're going to try very hard to prevent that from happening. Meaning, I just think that the human mind is capable of telling a great original story in ways that no machine will be able to replace, hopefully for many, many decades to come, if ever. That's my hope. That the storyteller is, in fact, the one who tells the story. Meaning, their story that creates the story, particularly the original story. I think it's fine, as we've done over the years, as Walt Disney did, to use technology as a powerful tool for that storyteller. Steve Jobs likened the laptop computer as a bicycle of the mind.

33:39He studied the locomotive capabilities of species and discovered that human beings didn't propel themselves through space very fast, very effectively, until you gave them a bicycle. And then they were the fastest species there was. And that's what he looked at. He viewed the computer that way. It might sound trite. It might sound naive of me to hope that that's what AI will become, because I know that there are many and maybe for legitimate reasons that worry that it's much more than the bicycle of the mind, that it is a powerful tool that would be so disruptive and so destructive that ultimately will have a negative effect on humankind.

34:20And I think we have a responsibility as human beings to see that that doesn't happen.

34:31Now, some listeners may not know, but you were a CEO for 15 years. You stepped down in 2020, came back after two years. Now, when you came back and looked at Disney again, what were your priorities then? Well, Disney had been through a really difficult time. Obviously, the board making a decision to remove the former CEO, you know, created not just uncertainty, but real concern. The first thing I had to do was really calm things down and reassure people that the future was bright again and that there were steps we were going to take that I was going to be very transparent about to get Disney back on track.

35:18I believe a company's culture is everything in many respects. And a culture that respects and fosters great creativity, particularly at Disney, is critical. I had to return creativity to the center of the company. The company had been restructured in a way that took some of the accountability and responsibility away from the creative side of the company. I had to restore that. I did that on day one, really, right away. I had to instill optimism again in the company, being a realist in how many things we needed to accomplish, but being an optimist in terms of my confidence that we would be able to accomplish those things.

35:59I also had to streamline the organization, make it much more clear who was responsible for what. There was a lot of fixing that had to be done. What was the toughest part of it? The toughest part for me was to be patient. I had to get used to the fact that the climb upwards wasn't as certain, wasn't as easy, and that we were starting from a very low point. And I had to be patient in terms of how long it would take to get where I felt the company needed to be. I actually feel quite good now about where we are. We have a lot more work to do. And heavens, even if we fixed everything, there still will be work to do.

36:38But I feel really good about not only the recent successes and what we've managed to accomplish as a company to date, but I feel great about the trajectory of our company going forward. Is it difficult for a perfectionist to be patient? It's almost impossible for a perfectionist to be patient. That is one of my personal struggles, I think. But I think over time you teach yourself to be patient. because, well, by the way, I think expressing impatience is good too because creating a sense of urgency and motivating people not just to do great things but to do them faster is a good thing, but you have to be realistic about it too.

37:21It doesn't do anybody any good to demand things that happen on a timeline that is impossible ultimately to achieve. So it's trying to understand, trying to get people moving as fast as possible in the right direction but understanding that results, positive results may take some time. Last question. We have tens of thousands of young listeners. What is your advice to young people? Well, I happen to believe to the extent you can either teach yourself to be curious or to the extent that you can lean into the curiosity that exists within you, that's really important. A curious person is someone that wants to learn, someone that wants to experience new things, someone that ultimately is capable of innovating.

38:07So find that curiosity gene within you and do whatever you can to make sure that it is healthy and vibrant. That's critical. We talked about patience. That's important in managing careers. Find your passion, by the way, but be patient about discovering what your passion is and then be patient about your career unfolding in terms of its timing in a more natural way. It's rare that I think usually opportunities come to people that are prepared for them as opposed to people creating opportunities completely on their own. There are too many outside factors in that regard. I benefited greatly from having bosses that retired just when I was ready to take their job, for instance.

38:55Now, that's not me creating the opportunity other than I made sure I was prepared for it when it came up. But it could have been a couple of cases that they decided to retire a couple of years later. I still would have gotten their jobs, but I would have had to be more patient about it. So I think patience is important. Don't create an artificial timetable for yourself that in many respects is out of your control. So be curious, be patient, find your passion, and apply everything you're capable of doing and then some to whatever that is. Well, that's a great place to end, Bob. A big thanks for being on here today and a big thanks for making the world, you know, a better and much more fun place to live.

39:41Well, thank you very much. Nice to spend time with you. Likewise. Thank you so much. Good luck.