Zalando Co-CEO: Building Europe's Fashion Giant, AI in Retail and the European Dream

0:00Robert Gentz: Hi everyone, I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian So-en Wealth Fund. And today I'm here with Robert Gentz, who is visiting us in Oslo. And Robert is the co-founder and co-CEO of Zalando, which is, of course, as you know, all of you, Europe's leading online fashion platform. Robert started Zalando in 2008, right as the financial crisis hit. And most people thought that selling shoes online was a terrible idea. But now, 17 years later, Zalando serves more than 50 million customers across 25 European markets. We own a lot of shares in this company and it's really exciting to have you here.

0:36Nicolai Tangen: Thank you very much for inviting me and having me.

0:47Robert Gentz: And of course, since you own the biggest kind of fashion thing in the world, what do you wear today? I'm very, very dark today.

0:53Nicolai Tangen: So everything that I wear, I actually got from Zalando today.

0:57Robert Gentz: It's a bit like Steve Jobs, like your sweater.

1:00Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, I thought like in Norway, you kind of have to dress a little bit warmer.

1:05Robert Gentz: Good idea. Now, Rob, let's go back to the start. You founded Zalando in 2008, just as the financial crisis was kind of hitting the world. So tell me about the very start.

1:17Nicolai Tangen: Before we started Zalando, me and my co-founder David, we started a social media company in Latin America, which was a student network in Mexico, Argentina, Chile. And this was a startup that didn't really work out. And then we said, okay, well, that shouldn't be it. So we actually wanted to actually try it one more time. And we came back to Europe and thought, okay, well, in e-commerce with soft goods. There's actually a very great opportunity here in Europe. And we looked into various categories and fashion and really found shoes quite interesting. And in June 2008, we started to sell flip-flops on a domain called flip-tops.de and it really worked out well.

2:03Nicolai Tangen: Consumers really liked it. It really picked up to 20 flip-flops a day. Based on this insight, we got our investment for a bigger idea, selling shoes online. and then we got started.

2:16Robert Gentz: 20 flip-flops a day, were you, you were packing them yourselves and sending them out?

2:20Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, yeah, we packed them ourselves, we went to the post office and really enjoyed every single customer contact we had and every single conversation and just, and as well asked, like, why did they actually go for an online search for flip-flops and why didn't go to stores? And it was a very, very good insight. So that was mid-2008, right before the financial crisis.

2:43Robert Gentz: but e-commerce was quite new at that stage right yeah it was very new and i think that that as well

2:48Nicolai Tangen: was was for us a very good insight that whenever we talk with people about e-commerce and with with shoes we got a lot of feedback from people and you cannot really order shoes you have to try them on you have to um you have to this is more bricks and mortar experience but then we actually saw like in internet like in google like how many people actually search for specific shoes and specific sizes and they made it very clear that there's a big market although it was on market for like you know 90 percent of people but it was actually market for a few percentage of people.

3:21Robert Gentz: Zappos in the U.S. had done something well I guess slightly similar was that an inspiration for you?

3:28Nicolai Tangen: It was like selling shoes online yeah so I think it was not the most innovative idea though but I think it actually like what Zappos in the U.S. proved is that with shoes in e-commerce you can actually built up a big company and that helped actually to raise them some money in the in basically in june july 2008 we then get 100 000 euros of investment and then the financial crisis hit and then um and then we said okay now we get we better get this uh get this uh get us going and survive and i think in retrospect this was actually a very good thing for us because it really produces a lot of character and that i think we still answer today actually nurture from the fact that you got the crisis straight in your face, you think was a good thing?

4:11Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, I mean, I remember like with my co-founder that we were, I mean, we were debating endlessly, for example, for half a day if we should actually buy, so remember like this book of the German retail with shoes, which gave us a lot of kind of market data about the German shoe retail. And it cost like 60 Euro at the time. And we really were debating, do we really need to spend the 60 Euro? Today we have more than 60 million customers we have thousands of employees, but we still tell these stories of frugality, of every single euro and every single resource really counts and treat it as if it's your own money, do you really have to spend it?

4:49Nicolai Tangen: And I think this produced a lot of character that we still benefit from today.

4:53Robert Gentz: When did you realize that there was potential beyond the shoe category?

5:00Nicolai Tangen: The skating of St. London happened extremely fast. So we went from like 2009, we had probably like 5 million revenues, 6 million revenues. Then we went to 150 in the next year, then more than 500 million. Wow. And then more than 1.2 billion in the fourth year. Wow. So we literally went from 50 people in 2009 to end of 2011. We were like more than 2 ,500 employees. Wow. So the scaling went very fast because then we realized that we have this flywheel going for us. So we started off with shoes and then we understood, you know, the more you provide selection, actually, the better you could actually convert the traffic.

5:41Nicolai Tangen: So better you could create the experience for customers. So we really had to just, I mean, scale selection and then we were able to convert the traffic in a good way. And then we asked ourselves, this is not only shoes, but as well fashion. And can we actually cross-sell fashion? What we then started to do. And then we asked ourselves, this is not only Germany, this is a European proposition. And then we went into the first market and realized that we could actually bring the same selection that we had now in Germany to a smaller market that was very much appreciated. And then we scaled across Europe.

6:10Nicolai Tangen: And that was a very, very fast scaling in these first years.

6:14Robert Gentz: Yeah, much faster than we normally see in Europe, right? I mean, that kind of bit scaling, sometimes you see it with the new technologies and so on, but very rare. So what decides the speed at the start of your launch? How do you get to these growth numbers?

6:30Nicolai Tangen: when it's very clear how your flywheel works then i think it's very incredibly easy for leadership to align under under this framework of how you actually grow yeah so and for us explain flywheel for the people who don't know it we started off with an adidas shoe so people actually internet searched adidas samba like a specific shoe size size let's call it like 46 like a bigger shoe size than you usually should get actually in the store. So they had very specific searches. And I mean, to convert such a search in a sale, you just need to have this shoe. But there's not that many people that search for this shoe.

7:09Nicolai Tangen: So more people actually search for Adidas Zamba, which is then the model name. And even more people then search for Adidas shoes or for the brand name Adidas. But the brand name Adidas, you cannot really convert until you really have like a good selection of Adidas in place. So, and for us, it actually meant, because we had to scale inventory, we started like very specifically to scale around shoe searches in the first couple of months. We knew that the more you build up selection, the more you can convert the traffic. And then you can go from within a brand to the entire brand, then to more brands, then you have entire Germany, then you can replicate the same for the next country.

7:45Nicolai Tangen: And all of a sudden, you then have like a selection that brings the same amount of selection, no matter if you live here in the north of Norway, or if you live in the south of Italy, or if you live close to the high street of Paris and you have the same access to selection. And I think that was very much, I think, the journey of the flywheel of how we built up a selection and actually could grow and grow and grow in this environment in a good way.

8:12Robert Gentz: But you are expanding in a lot of different dimensions at the same time. So you're expanding in categories, in brands and in geographies. How do you think about that, expanding in so many different ways at the same time?

8:26Nicolai Tangen: The way of how we think about it is we have people that we form a relationship with. These are our customers. And we have more than 60 million, more than 15 % of the European population that has an active customer relationship with us. And we nurture these relationships with our customers. We try to invest a lot in terms of our experience to never disappoint, to always deliver in a way that exceeds the expectations. And then it's a question of how we can use these customer relationships to do more for them. So we started off with shoes, went into fashion, recently went as well into sports, into beauty, into families and kids.

8:58Nicolai Tangen: So into all aspects where we can actually play a bigger role for our customers. So we build relationships and then we grow our role for them in a bigger way. And today it's about 300 euro on average they spend with us. And our ambition is obviously to grow the role in different categories that we actually play with. How did you decide which countries to roll out? We're only in Europe. And so the big reason for only Europe is because Europe is actually so beautifully complex. And we made Europe very easy for brands to interact with due to our kind of logistical footprint. So we can build like a big logistical network throughout Europe that can serve customers as well in the north of Norway and the south of Sicily.

9:41Nicolai Tangen: And within Europe, we actually have the benefit of this network outside of Europe.

9:45Robert Gentz: So if you have a brand, instead of building out all these facilities yourself, you basically just let you do it?

9:51Nicolai Tangen: I mean, what we have recently done now with our B2B service, that we as well enable brands through our B2B services to use our entire logistical network as well for their own e-commerce and as well outside of Zalando, which is the B2B vector that we have recently launched like last year. Tell me about this.

10:13Robert Gentz: So what do you do for the clients? So this is a whole, you basically supply the whole ecosystem, right, for e-commerce?

10:19Nicolai Tangen: Exactly. So we have a B2C, that's kind of how we grew up with, and recently we have launched a B2B Vector for us, where we basically productize the logistical infrastructure and service that we've built and as well software, and regard actually the 7 ,000 brands that we offer, that we work with as customers of our infrastructure. And they can use the same infrastructure that we built for ourselves now to actually run the entire e-commerce on. So that kind of has all these localization features throughout Europe and that they can send product through like for their own e-commerce or as well connect to different marketplaces and only run the entire inventory from one infrastructure which is I think a very very good use for the brands because they don't have to invest into own own capex of logistics and they get as well the benefits from the entire network that we have for ourselves.

11:10Robert Gentz: So if I'm the client and I buy something directly from a company you basically provide the whole backbone and do the delivery. Exactly. And I still think I deal just with that company. Or do I know that you guys are involved?

11:23Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, I mean, a good example is NEXT. It's actually committed the continental European fulfillment. So all the fulfillment actually for NEXT within Europe is done through our logistical footprint.

11:37Robert Gentz: So Rob, you collect a lot of data, right? You know more about what's selling in Europe than any other firm, right? How do you use all this data?

11:47Nicolai Tangen: I mean, you're right. With 60 million people that actually shop with us on a yearly basis and many more, obviously, like, you know, visitors that we actually have, that actually use our destination, there's a lot of great data that we generate on behalf of consumers. And, for example, what we do here is that we use the data graphs from consumers and as well from merchandise to help consumers to find better sizes for themselves. or find the sizes that have a higher probability to fit them. So, I mean, if you actually order something on Zalando and you order a history with Zalando and you sometimes return items, you get feedback on items, sometimes you don't return items, then we see similar customers that have a similar kind of history as you have.

12:28Nicolai Tangen: And when you actually look at another item that you have not yet bought, we can give you more accurately advice which size to order because sometimes these brands run a bit smaller, sometimes they run a bit bigger. which we can actually build out of this knowledge graph on sizes.

12:42Robert Gentz: If I go on Zolando and I try to buy a medium shirt, you're going to say, Nikolai, you must be joking. You should have Excel.

12:50Nicolai Tangen: That can happen sometimes. But I mean, sometimes these brands have different size profiles. So I think it can as well be sometimes that you say, OK, well, I mean, in this brand, you might actually be an S. So it can as well happen. Right. But I mean, these are like good data points. But I think then there's another kind of very interesting data challenge, which actually comes in logistics. How do you actually optimize logistics in a right way? So where in this network of logistics centers, if we run across Europe, where an item should actually be put in this network that actually has the highest probability in terms of speed, but in terms of cost, where it might actually be purchased.

13:29Nicolai Tangen: where there's a lot of math and data that actually really helps to optimize this network. As well, on behalf of the entire industry, because we work with 7 ,000 brands, we run a very big network. There's a lot of inefficiencies which can actually be calculated away by actually producing the right algorithms and the right data graphs.

13:47Robert Gentz: What are the most important ways that AI is changing the way you run your business now?

13:52Nicolai Tangen: I mean, it has a few of components about how we actually interact with consumers. for example we recently launched like a discovery feed so which is actually a great way of how can actually consumers can interact with with fashion beyond actually the only buying but as well in terms of their discovery and their inspiration entertainment so we will actually surface from like a huge pool of content those items of content that actually consumers might be the most interested in yeah which gives them a great gateway towards finding or getting inspired or as well having fun with Fashion Lifestyle. So that's an interesting new project that we have launched on our mission to inspiration entertainment with consumers.

14:33Nicolai Tangen: The second kind of bigger initiative is an assistant that we have built, which actually enables consumers to interact with us in natural language. So we can actually ask us much more occasion-based questions. So I don't know, I'm showing up here in Norway and what shall I actually wear today in Norway, which is something e-commerce previously couldn't really answer. But now with all these advanced and large language models and as well in our own advancements, we are able to cope with these questions and answer these questions in a good way.

15:04Robert Gentz: So the model told you, okay, you're going to Norway. It's such a depressing country. You need to wear black. Yeah, could be. What about sizes? How is technology going to help people choose the size?

15:19Nicolai Tangen: The size and fit is as well really one of the most interesting and complex questions in fashion. And here, AI actually helps quite a lot to actually solve these questions.

15:30Robert Gentz: Can I take a picture of myself and get the size?

15:32Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, exactly. So you can take a picture of yourself at Zalando, which actually one million customers already have done. So you take a picture of yourself using the Zalando app and we render the sizes from your body. And this actually increases our probability to actually predict the right size for you. But it's two sides of the problem. it's the body size, but it's more like the merchandise measurement size, which is another question. But I think in the future, there will be as well experiences where you for a certain part of assortment, we would have like close to 100 % of confidence that we can predict the right size for you where you might have actually detail pages where you don't have to select any more size, we do a size selection actually for you.

16:08Nicolai Tangen: And we're very confident that whatever we send you will actually fit you. So that's the consumer side.

16:14Robert Gentz: Tell me about how you work with returns, which is a very big cost in your industry?

16:20Nicolai Tangen: Nobody really likes returns. The consumers don't like returns. We don't like returns. The environment doesn't like returns. It's nothing that anyone likes. So consumers don't really like to go to the postal office and just deliver returns again. So it is something that we work on to help consumers to take better choices. and the big driver of returns is obviously that an item actually doesn't arrive in the way of how the consumers imagine it to be so it's be it like in terms of sizes how it fits or be it in the way of how it was visually imagined when you actually ordered and there's actually going a lot of investments from our side into helping consumers to actually better take better choices here so on the size and fit we already discussed a little bit like what we do there but even like on the product presentation.

17:08Nicolai Tangen: So there's actually innovation happening where this problem might be better solved in the future. So for example, we're now able to render from two-dimensional pictures like three-dimensional experiences or like videos that actually help consumers to really in-depth actually try to imagine this item on the detail pages in a way that wasn't possible before.

17:28Robert Gentz: So if you add all these things together, what do you think are the real key issues that you need to get right as an online retailer?

17:35Nicolai Tangen: The one key theme is customer obsession. So because, I mean, consumer expectations are constantly rising and really staying close to the consumer and really as well staying close to the technology that actually enables you to provide solutions that actually were not possible before. I think that's one key theme. The second one is as well, like have a very, very good relationship with the brands because we work with 7 ,000 brands and they as well drive their business and they have a lot of good ideas and understanding what they really need and how do you as a platform actually cater to them in the right way and how do you make it as efficient for them as possible to drive their brand equity on the line.

18:17Nicolai Tangen: I think that's the two most important ingredients you have to get right.

18:21Robert Gentz: You are facing a couple of new ultra-low-cost competitors, Temu and Shine. How are they changing the landscape for you?

18:30Nicolai Tangen: I mean, you have these Chinese competitors now, But we are basically in a different game than those companies. I think they are only about price. Our promise to consumers as a platform is much more around quality. As a consumer, you know that the selection you get on Zalando is actually, these are brands, there's a certain quality filter that we actually apply to it. And we invest a lot into experiences to make it better for consumers, like delivery, speed, reliability, brand presentation, and as well, these innovations as size and fit and product presentation and so on. So that's a promise to us consumers.

19:08Nicolai Tangen: And the promise towards brands is as well on quality, which is very important, is that they don't compete on Zalando with supply chains that are just after copying their styles at a lower quality and cheaper price, but they actually have an ability to build up their brand on Zalando and tell their story on Zalando and sell their product in the way they want to sell them. So it's a very different kind of game that we play. These Chinese platforms, you see them in segments of the market that are very price sensitive, like young fashion enterprise points. You see them as well in terms of advertising prices because, I mean, they're sometimes very aggressive in advertising.

19:44Nicolai Tangen: So that as well, we see that. But I think overall, like our Zalando game is much bigger. So it's as well, like not only about fashion, it's about sports, about beauty, about family, kids, and many more kind of lifestyle propositions that we're active in.

19:57Robert Gentz: Just if you try to look forward, let's say three months, what are you seeing in terms of changing purchasing behaviors? Anything going on in society which you think is interesting just now?

20:08Nicolai Tangen: We have a very broad view across Europe and I think sometimes you see like you know price consciousness I think a little bit more like in some elements of the market in Germany like Eastern Europe is actually performing quite well but nothing kind of really I think extraordinary. any particular color any particular color for the next season what we recently developed is consumer adoption is actually like a trend spotter where we actually mine the data of Solano and actually provide by cities we can actually look on the app you can actually sort by cities what are actually movers and shakers in terms of trends by cities so I'm not sure if actually Oslo is well on there but I think Amsterdam Berlin, Paris is on the list where we actually mine the data about what kind of items as well get searched more like what kind of color trends you actually you see more by city and it's actually varies very much by city you know it's it's not the same like in berlin or in paris or in oslo and actually very trends conscious consumers actually look at these transporter data quite quite a lot but as well brands are very very interested in the data and then we deploy to them towards towards their own kind of production and knowledge how different is the taste in the various cities so let's say you mentioned amsterdam berlin paris how different are If you're interested, you can just look in the app and you can actually filter by different cities.

21:22Nicolai Tangen: And you just see just last week what kind of items were trending in which city. And it looks totally different.

21:30Robert Gentz: Wow. And if you were to be a bit ahead of time, what would you buy just now? What color and what kind of clothes?

21:39Nicolai Tangen: So it's not that I have a turtleneck all the time, but I'm very loyal to a couple of brands that I have. and in terms of colors, it's mostly in the gray, blue and white and dark space.

21:53Robert Gentz: Let's move on to the climate impact and the environment impact. Just how do you assess Zalando's role in the environmental impact?

22:04Nicolai Tangen: The fashion industry has an impact on the environment and it actually has to do better. I see as well Zalando's role in that is kind of important because we interact with more than 60 million consumers and with 7 ,000 brands, it actually has a big impact. And we should use our role as well very wisely to drive impact for good. I think there's one open myth that I just want to clarify is e-commerce has the view that it actually is Ceteris Paribus actually not better than bricks and mortar or worse than bricks and mortar, which actually is not true because in bricks and mortar, you actually have all these stores that they have like in the inner cities, they have to have lightning, they have like, you know, heating.

22:48Nicolai Tangen: They have these inner logistics towards providing merchandise in these stores and all the consumers actually have to, you know, drive there, park their car, go in there. So in an e-commerce, you don't even have all that. So you just have logistic centers that actually can and are actually pretty efficient in terms of their campaign. Then you just have to run the shipments where there's a lot of levers that you can actually make this neutral. So like for like, actually e-commerce should actually have a much less impact than extra bricks and mortar. But though I think in total, we are very committed to being climate neutral in our own operation and private labor by 2040 and as well in our larger scope by 2050.

23:30Nicolai Tangen: On top of that, we as well try to actually find good mechanisms of how we can actually help the industry to do better. So, for example, what we do is that we enable more sustainable flex. So when actually a brand invests into like a certain area of sustainability, so for example, like different usage of material or different impacts, that we actually create these labels that consumers can actually filter on. And what we see is that this more sustainable filter label, so when consumers shop by them, actually that return rate actually gets lower. So it is actually better for the consumer, it's better for the environment, but it's as well better for the brand because return rates are always a big cost factor as well for brands.

24:14Nicolai Tangen: Like again, the flywheel of good win-win-wins, but actually the brands can actually invest towards more sustainable and actually as well has a good impact on consumers. And I think those kind of solutions that we can drive on this intersection between consumers and brands is something I'm very excited about because it is really win-win-win situations we can actually drive very uniquely at Zalando.

24:37Robert Gentz: Let's talk about leadership. So you run this from the first flip-flop to now you're like 15 ,000 people or thereabouts. How has your leadership style changed?

24:47Nicolai Tangen: I mean a lot I guess. When I started out I was 24. I never really worked in another company outside of the social media company we started in Latin America. So I never really had any work experience. So I think literally in the first years it was about just being in the front row and just I mean doing the like playing on the field and just doing stuff. Over time obviously like you know we've grown a lot and I had to as well learn about how to actually scale myself and how to scale the leadership. What I would describe now how I would lead is I'm quite an enabling leader so I I trust by default the teams or like the DSL actually work for me directly.

25:37Nicolai Tangen: And I try to actually spend quite some time in just understanding and being curious about like what's happening. And then only really get involved in the areas where I feel that only I can do that. So it could be some very ambiguous decisions or like some more long-term decisions where you need a certain conviction and risk budget or stubbornness as well. and I think on topics around culture like corporate culture like those kind of elements where you just have to really get involved and take a stand as no one else can do Is there such a thing as a German leadership? I mean, Zalando we employ people from 140 different countries and we're a very European company so I although it's headquartered in Germany but I would very much I think describe us as a European company

26:27Robert Gentz: I mean you're quite self-spoken are you are you an introvert?

26:35Nicolai Tangen: I well I mean I'm not sure if I would be an introvert yes but but maybe yes yes. And how does an introvert run a big company? What are the challenges? I think actually Barack Obama is even an introvert yes I mean I do the stuff that I really care about And I think it's about role modeling, about what's the right values for a company. And I really deeply care about a company that's very visible in everything that I do. But I don't really have to take on the stage all the time. So I'm as well kind of like, you know, very happy as well to, you know, to provide the stage to people that actually deserve the stage, like when they actually have accomplishments.

27:12Nicolai Tangen: And I think that as well creates the right kind of team mentality at Zalando. So I think introvert, extrovert, I think there's always good mechanisms for good leadership. Absolutely.

27:20Robert Gentz: I do suspect that you're only introvert than Barack Obama, to be honest, but hey.

27:24Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. How do you communicate internally in the organization? So we have a lot of different formats that we do. So we have like an own intranet network where we do like, you know, post letters. We have rerun all hands very frequently. And we test out as well a different kind of formats where people just ask us anything and we just react to what they have on their mind.

27:51Robert Gentz: Now, what are the most important parts of the Zalando culture that are non-negotiable for you, that you really work hard to retain?

28:02Nicolai Tangen: When we started, I didn't really think that much about corporate culture because you just start to run. And then I actually realized when we grew that certain things actually happened in the company where you feel like you have not, you kind of don't agree with and you just ask yourself how did it actually happen. When we realized that like 2010, when we grew like from 50 to 200 people, we started to actually codify these principles and then actually make them really count within the company. So these are like 14 leadership principles that we then hire by, that we promote by, that we quote a lot internally that are very kind of visible.

28:47Nicolai Tangen: And these were like leadership principles that we say, like, you know, these are things that really matter when you actually work and it should actually feel kind of like very, very important. And people really quote them and people are using them that provide like an author of how we take decisions, how we run actually together as a team. One leadership principle that is important for us is, for example, play as a team, dare to fail. as you need to nurture this willingness to take as well risk yeah so otherwise i think you really create like a culture where it's it's very easy to just discuss a problem yeah or why it actually should go wrong because there's always so many um good arguments why things actually should go wrong and then i think if nobody is willing to actually stay positive and you take the risk i think then nothing will really happen i think if you actually create such a such a culture then i think you You basically create like a poker without blinds.

29:42Nicolai Tangen: So where, I mean, only people actually go on when it's very, very, very clear. If as a company, you never really take on some calculated risk, I think you're very clear to, you know, lose over time. And this is actually something that's very important to us, that we really encourage people as well to take a stance, take a risk, and then don't be the, I told you so person, when it actually doesn't go wrong, but we cheer them up when they actually take risk and go after an opportunity. So that's, for example, one that I personally care quite a lot about.

30:20Robert Gentz: You listed on the stock exchange quite early, right? Just after six years. Was that the right thing to do?

30:27Nicolai Tangen: It was very early when we started, it's around 2008, end of 2008. So we had a different kind of environment that we started in. So there was not a vibrant VC scene. So there was different investors that we could talk to. So like one of the biggest supporters and as well shareholders of Zalando was actually Chenevic. And Chenevic was actually like a public company. So and after some time, because Zalando actually grew so big, so big in a short amount of time, we became actually a very big part of the net asset value. So their earnings calls, and Cinevic is a public company, so their earnings calls became our earnings calls, because we had to just provide a lot of transparency towards the Cinevic shareholders, because it was such a big part of the assets.

31:19Nicolai Tangen: So we had all these downsides of a public company without really having the upset of public companies. So for us it was a very natural step then in 2014 to go public, which was, yeah, I mean only a couple of years after we found the company. So now I run for much longer time now a public company and private company.

31:42Robert Gentz: Yeah, yeah. You've been very vocal about kind of the European dream for entrepreneurship and I'm very concerned about that. Just what are your thoughts about Europe as a place to startup businesses.

31:55Nicolai Tangen: I think what I'm missing sometimes in the European debate is like a positive North idea. So because if you don't really have a positive North idea, you kind of get into a lot of detailed discussions and negative discussions. What really I think we need here in Europe is first of all, I think, a positive kind of idea. What is actually what we want to do? And I felt like, you know, that actually creating such a European dream is actually like a good and good and north star idea because i feel the american dream which was i think like a big it's like a big brand of the us i think it actually has has suffered quite a bit in and and recent recently which is a brand around you know come to come to us and uh and we we cheer you up and and build your build your dream and it's uh it's right kind of inclusive place and i feel But the American dream has suffered because it went from a very inclusive idea to a much more exclusive idea.

32:55Nicolai Tangen: So not everyone is really welcome in the US. And I feel Europe really has a big, big chance to actually tap into this void and actually create like a European idea. Because it's a free space. It's a very value-driven democratic space we have in Europe. And I think we have all the great talents and we have a lot of potential. and we just need to, I think, formulate a positive North idea and make it as well clear that we're in a race. We're in a race between China and the US and it's about relevancy and we want to win this race. And I think that's some of the positive ideas I think that we need here in Europe.

33:37Robert Gentz: So do you think that what's happening in the US now is making it more difficult to be a startup there?

33:46Nicolai Tangen: I think at least when you are a student that's graduated from university and you ask yourself, okay, where should I actually start a business? I think there are certain elements in America that probably make it a little bit easier. But in Europe, there is as well a good fundamental. So there's access to people. It actually has a big senior market that should actually enable us to actually really stay here. And I think in terms of values, I think that's one of the core questions that I have for myself is what is actually the value space that you're actually most attached to? Because that's essentially you're choosing your home as well as for your company and as well for yourself.

34:25Nicolai Tangen: That's actually, I think for me, like what actually European dream actually can become. But I mean, in order to make such a dream happen, first of all, we need to do here in Europe is to really realize that I think those founders and those movers and shakers, they are really, I mean, they are your customers because they can choose where they want to start a business. How do we really make sure that we make it easy for them to actually start a business and scale a business here in Europe? And how do we ensure that they have speed and can generate scale and really understand as well customers and apply a lens of competitiveness towards all the environment that we actually suggest to them through our regulation?

35:04Nicolai Tangen: So I think that's one. And then the second one is for me, I mean, one of the big arguments for Europe is the single market that we have here because it's actually a huge market. So it needs to be as well understood as a single market. So in terms of how merchandise and people and that's why capital is used in the single market. So it's like a lot of fragmentation that goes beyond the natural fragmentation that you have in Europe. I think it's just not very helpful.

35:36Robert Gentz: What would it take to make a single capital market?

35:42Nicolai Tangen: I think you're probably a bit more an expert than I am, but I think just too much competition between the different nations doesn't really help that much. I think we've got 35 stock markets in Europe. Yeah. That's quite a lot. I think it's quite a lot, yeah, but I mean, it certainly is not so helpful. I think understanding that I think we're in this together and we win this together, I think it's much more helpful. Then the third element I would really mention is we talk a lot about level playing field. I think we actually need to even go beyond that. We need to make it easier for European companies that operate from Europe than actually outside of Europe.

36:22Nicolai Tangen: And I think at the moment we don't do. We sometimes even go after our European companies first because they had quality in Europe and make it easier actually for companies to operate outside of Europe.

36:41Robert Gentz: Some personal reflections. When you look back at your journey at Zalander, what are you the most proud of?

36:47Nicolai Tangen: I mean, it's 17 years now since I started this company, so I'm very proud that we actually built something very meaningful for Europe with a great team that I very much enjoy to work with. And I think when I think about the scale of 1 in 15 % of the European population and have done this as a consumer company, it's something I'm very, very proud of.

37:10Robert Gentz: If you try to abstract what it is that makes a good founder? What is it? Who are successful?

37:19Nicolai Tangen: What for me is a trade for active investors and many firms that I always look for is some element of curiosity and some element as well of humility. Because that's what I realized over doing this for 17 years is curiosity is a very, very important leadership trade for me because you can only really take good decisions when you listen and when you are interested. And you can learn actually from everyone. So from a newly joined person to a company, from a customer, from a partner, you can literally learn from everyone. And this is very important that you're curious in order to actually take good decisions.

38:01Nicolai Tangen: And the second element of humility is as well for me important because you need to be respectful for what is in front of you and not get ahead because, I mean, just because whatever you build until here doesn't always predict that you as well be successful in the next kind of challenges that you have in front of you. And I think that's two kind of important traits I would always look for founders when I invest into their companies. How much do you work? I think I don't really differentiate that much between when I work and not work. I mean, I think about Zalando when I get up, when I'm at work, when I'm at home.

38:39Nicolai Tangen: I think it's always, when you're found, I think it's a very, very special kind of relationship that you have to the company. It's like a very deep care. And it doesn't really matter where you are. And you always think about it in a way. So it's very hard for me to say, like, what's work, what's not work.

38:57Robert Gentz: do you think that's a prerequisite for being a good CEO that you are totally absorbed in

39:03Nicolai Tangen: in the company I mean you have to balance you certainly have to manage your energy I think that's that's important when you really love what you do and when you're really passionate about what you do and when you care I think it as well gives you a lot of energy and obviously I think there's a lot of stuff that you do as a founder and CEO like that not always gives you energy but I think there needs to be always a certain certain balance that you actually I mean wake up every day I think with a good amount of energy.

39:30Robert Gentz: Where do you get your energy from? And I know that you know specifically because you go one of these rings, right? So what is it that gives you, where do you charge your batteries?

39:42Nicolai Tangen: I think in a work context, whenever we discuss about, I mean, new innovation, new products and imagining how this actually could be, I think there's always for me like very exciting products. And as well.

39:51Robert Gentz: Can you see that from the graph when you talk about new products?

39:53Nicolai Tangen: It's just like, you can see it. I will probably be able to see it. That's something very exciting always. When you have an idea, when you have a plan, and then we execute on it, and you see it actually coming to life and actually working out, that's always the most rewarding experience in an entrepreneurial life. Where do you relax? Well, I relax when reading, I relax listening to… that's a typical way of how I would relax. Where do you read? I mean it really depends I read some criminal stories the Scandinavian crime is actually something that I enjoy the Nordics I could have guessed actually

40:35Robert Gentz: now last question what's your advice to young people?

40:40Nicolai Tangen: stay in Europe make it work in Europe I think that's one wish I would rather say for young people when they actually start companies out Why should they say in Europe? For me, it's a part of the world that really, I think, deserves to actually gain in relevance again in terms of our value set and the way of what we represent. And I think it really depends as well with the value creation of companies actually in Europe. And it's all really on us to actually have this value creation actually here from within Europe. And I think that's a very big motivation of my or my co-CEO, to actually prove that this is actually possible from Europe and actually put our energy to make it work in Europe.

41:21Robert Gentz: Well, that's a great piece of advice. You for sure have added more value in Europe than most people I've ever met. So a big thank you for doing that and for being on the podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you.