Desire, empowerment and pushing for progress, with Gillian Anderson

0:00Net-a-Porter presents The Incredible Women Podcast, Series 10, Supernovas. Welcome to the 10th series of The Incredible Women Podcast, in which we sit down with women who shine bright and draw greatness into their orbits. All at the top of their game, some of these incredible women you'll already be familiar with, and others we're excited to introduce you to. I'm Alice Casely-Hayford, Content Director at Net-a-Porter, and I'm thrilled to be joined for this episode of our Supernova series by award-winning actor and author Gillian Anderson. I feel like I've entered my, I was going to say bad guy, but I need to find another word for that, my baddie.

0:41I've entered my baddie phase of complicated but in a different way, not necessarily in ways that one might aspire to be. Born in Chicago in 1968, Gillian Anderson spent most of her early years in London after her family moved there when she was just two. At 11, they returned to America, where she would eventually train at Chicago's prestigious Goodman Theatre School. She was still largely unknown when she auditioned for the science fiction series The X-Files. The show became a cultural phenomenon, drawing 20 million viewers weekly and turning Anderson's sceptical FBI agent, Dana Scully, into an icon.

1:18Her nuanced performance earned her an Emmy in 1997, and she went on to be the first woman to write and direct an episode of the series. That fearlessness has defined her career ever since. She channeled the steely determination of Detective Stella Gibson in the hit crime drama series The Fool, brought warmth and wisdom to sex therapist Jean Milburn in Netflix Sex Education, and delivered a chilling portrayal of Margaret Thatcher in The Crown that earned widespread acclaim. Whether commanding the stage or screen, Anderson consistently chooses roles that challenge both herself and audiences. Beyond her acting, she uses her voice for good.

1:56She's a passionate advocate for animal rights, women's issues and children's welfare, using her platform to amplify causes that are close to her heart. Let's meet Gillian. Well, hello, Gillian. Welcome to our podcast. It is such a joy to be here with you today. I think I last saw you when we sat next to each other at Net-A-Porter dinner in March 2024. I was about eight and a half months pregnant and ready to pop. and you were very kind and generous to me in my sweaty stretch state. So it's so lovely to see you again now. And yeah, very, very excited to have you on the podcast. How are you doing?

2:35I'm all right. Thank you. And congratulations. Thank you. He's now a year and a half. I was going to say, yeah, running around somewhere. It is indeed. Yeah, it is. But thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. You're a true incredible woman and it's such a joy to be talking to you. But speaking of incredible women, you play three formidable women in your upcoming roles in Tron, in The Abandons and Trespassers all coming out very, very soon. Can you tell us what drew you to those three women? I think what drew me to them is that they're very, very different, which is always a lot of fun for an actor to be able to expand oneself in as many directions as possible.

3:19So Elizabeth Dillinger in Tron is very grand, very put together, has run a billion dollar business that has recently been, the reins have been handed over to her son. And he believes that with it, he is saving the world. And she believes that he's in the process of destroying everything she and her late husband ever built. And so she's quite controlling and very, very serious and anxious. And then we've got Gina in Trespasses, which will be coming out on Channel 4, which was a bestselling book by Louise Kennedy that came out a couple of years ago. and it's a love story that takes place during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

4:08And Gina is a single mother who is, as much as anything, battling with her alcoholism. At the same time, her daughter is parenting her more than she's parenting her daughter at the minute, but she's a wonderful, tragic character. And then we have Constance Van Ness in The Abandons. The Abandons is a big Western for Netflix. Seven parts. It takes place in 1835 and myself and Lena Hedy are dueling matriarchs during the Silver Run, I guess, in the Old West in America, in Oregon. and another quite serious, hard, conniving character, quite different, I think, than some of the women that I've played over the last couple of decades.

5:04I feel like I've entered my, I was going to say bad guy, but I need to find another word for that. My baddie, I've entered my baddie phase of complicated, but in a different way, not necessarily in ways that one might aspire to be. Yes. But as you say, three such different characters, and I'm excited about your baddie era. But before we get to that, you've played so many magnificent characters through history, you know, real and fictional. Has there been one defining character or role that has been the most fulfilling or exhilarating for you? Gosh, I mean, probably I started my career as Scully in the X-Files and she was definitely a defining character for me.

5:47But I think then stepping into Stella from the fall felt exhilarating in a way because, I guess because she was so in touch with all aspects of herself and her sensual self and her intellectual self and the impact that she had on the world around her. I don't know, somehow I feel like I was suddenly a grown-up, I think. She was definitely exhilarating to play in those three seasons, yeah. She was a phenomenal character and I discovered the fall during lockdown and was gripped and it was just like nothing I'd seen before and you and Jamie Dornan, it was just a fantastic role. But I think going back to the very start of your career, you've said previously that it was a teacher at university, I think Rick Murphy, and then watching Meryl Streep in Out of Africa that really made you realise you wanted to pursue acting.

6:47Can you tell me a bit more about how those two individuals acted as a catalyst to your career? Yeah, I mean, I think that when I saw Out of Africa on telly, it was before I then went to university. So I would have seen that, you know, after school while I was in high school or something like that and I think as much as anything it was recognizing that the mastery of the craft that that Streep had I don't think I'd ever really necessarily taken acting or the craft of acting into consideration but there was something about it because Isaac Dennison is a complicated character. And I think all the romanticism around it has been pulled up to reality in the last decade or so wisely.

7:45And I think that as a high schooler, the mixture of an independent woman, on the one hand, as it was portrayed, you know, fending for herself and standing up for her beliefs and at the same time having a romance with Robert Redford mixed with Meryl's portrayal of her and just how immersed she was in that character and I think I recognized acting for the first time as being a thing, a thing to strive for. And so I think it was because of that, that I even started considering, you know, properly auditioning for things, even considering that I might want to study and go on to expand my education, but in the direction of an acting career.

8:53and so then you know applied for university and etc and then once I got there there was this character Rick Murphy you know the relationship between actresses and their male directors I think is quite historic in terms of you know very often wanting to to please and to be one's best and there's historically famous actress-director relationships, platonic relationships where they have worked really intensely together and in a creative space. And it almost felt like when I arrived at the school that everybody, it wasn't just the young women, it was a very charismatic character and everybody wanted to please him and to have positive feedback from him and to feel like they were, you know, we made him laugh or we were clever and good enough as actors to do something that he'd never seen before.

10:06You know, we were all performing for Rick. And so when I got positive reinforcement from him, it really felt like it was meaningful to me like it was the first time that I think I properly believed in myself as an actor because we all really valued his feedback and there were a lot of now famous actors who'd gone to the school before who had learned under him and so they were both really, you know, formidable adults in my life at a very young age who in their own way, maybe even unbeknownst to them, had a real big impact on the decisions that I made going forward. And most of all, my desire to keep going and to proceed and not give up.

10:58Well, Rick sounds amazing. I think we all remember that first teacher who shapes the rest of your trajectory really. I shout out to Miss Rushforth, my English teacher at school who made me want to be a writer and Meryl Streep, you know, another exceptional actress and I think the similarities between you both in choosing such exciting, varied roles that challenge yourselves and the audiences. So it's amazing to hear how she's influenced you. But you touched then on the relationship between specifically being directed by a man and female actors. You've worked across four decades now in the industry.

11:37I'd love to understand how you have seen it change from the inside. And, you know, that moment of reckoning with Me Too, did that feel performative? Or do you feel that you've seen meaningful change that will impact and positively benefit the industry forever? I think at the, you know, right at the apex of Me Too and Time's Up, I feel like there was some real structural and progressive change that was being made both in front of and behind the camera, certainly in front of. And every once in a while I still will go, you know, join a set where it feels as if the conversation has continued behind the camera as well and more and more women are finding space and position behind the camera.

12:36I have to say though, I mean, I don't think it was performative, but I do think that the minute Trump got into office, it almost stalled. every progressive conversation around inclusion, diversity, race, everything. And so I think that has had the biggest impact. It's like on a dime, things reversed and conversations reversed. And so more and more, unfortunately, it just means that we need to keep putting one foot in front of the other and be louder and more vocal and proactive than perhaps ever before in order to move the conversation forward. Absolutely. If you were starting your career today, what would be your advice to your younger self if she was embarking on Hollywood in 2025?

13:31I guess one of the things that I would do is I would encourage her to look at the history of both women in our industry, but also, you know, the history of women's rights period. Because I think so much of the current younger generations don't necessarily have an understanding of the work that has gone before or where things stood not that long ago. And unfortunately, it does look like in some areas, you know, particularly, dare I say, in America, it looks like slowly but surely we're heading back in that direction in many different arenas. And unless one knows what the potential destination is, you know, or from whence we came, it might be harder to see when we're heading back in that direction.

14:43And so I guess I would encourage my younger self to just take a beat to educate myself about that so that I was aware of the potential pitfalls or aware of, you know, just all the hidden ways that things are still closed off to the many and open only to the few. Absolutely. Well, let's move away from acting for a moment and talk about writing. You published your Sunday Times bestseller Want last year, which is a book that explores and chronicles female desire. And you've just announced the sequel, which is coming soon. Can you tell us a little bit about what's to come in part two? So the first book was fantasies written to me by women anonymously, women around the world.

15:46and the book was called Want. And we had put a call out to women and created a portal that they could write in to anonymously. And I think we ended up with about 800 ,000 words and the book was released. I think we had whittled it down to about 174 letters. And so we have just made an announcement for the second book and tried to push the net out even wider to be even more inclusive and be more deliberate in our targeting of areas to make sure that we had as many voices as possible. And we're still in the process of reading through all the letters that we got for the second round. And we're meant to actually be gathering in the second week of September to start talking about everything that we have read.

16:47And I can't tell you exactly what the angle will be, whether it will be different at all from the first yet. But I can tell you that there is a certain confidence in the letters this time. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we encourage women to be even bolder and more, you know, no holds barred kind of attitude around writing and just basically include, you know, whatever, don't be shy. and that is certainly the case but as much as anything it's more having the original book sit out there already and be as beloved as it was and for it to you know have created such an incredible ongoing conversation and opened up conversations between women and each other between women and their partners between also you know a lot of men being very curious about the book and certainly learning from it or you know sharing it with wives or even sharing it with daughters to encourage an openness and creativity in a sense and empowerment there's just so many fantastic conversations that were started it's funny because the first time round our working title was dear Gillian, right?

18:17And so when I would read the dear Gillian at the beginning of the letters, you know, it felt almost like I'm going to write dear Gillian because I was told to write dear Gillian at the start of the letter. Whereas this time it feels like it's directly to me, like it's on purpose, directly, this is my fantasy and this is what I have to say. And I'm telling you because you have asked. And so it feels, you know, it feels bold, much bolder and declaratory. Because there still is so much shame and stigma around female desire. So that your brilliant book has shifted the dial and made us feel more open and confident about it is fantastic.

19:01My mother currently has my copy and then maybe she can lend it to my husband if that's not too weird. but were there any i'm sure we can send you another one i have to fight over it but were there any sort of surprising revelations or things that you learned that you weren't expecting reading through all of the letters and then compiling it i mean as you said given the day and age that we live in and that there's so much access to so much visually and on every forum about you know sex and sexuality and you know the porn industry and blah blah blah there's there's just so much out there it's I think I'm still surprised and I think too the women writing in were surprised when they came face to face with asking themselves what their fantasy would be and contemplated whether or not they would or could share with their partner.

20:04And, you know, sometimes there's a very powerful choice in not sharing it. That's somebody's, you know, prerogative. But it's hard not to then move on to the question of oneself about the different areas in one's life that one doesn't ask for what we want and the knock-on effect of that the impact that that has on the decisions we make the choices we make the opportunities we do or do not take the you know how we advocate for ourselves or not just putting a little spotlight into those areas and asking oneself those questions can be incredibly informative and can move the dial you know that they can be transformative even in the tiniest way in terms of how we show up for ourselves and so even if it only moves the dial an incremental a little percentage, then I'd say that that's a good thing.

21:16Absolutely. Well, we cannot wait for the sequel and the conversations that undoubtedly is going to begin and open up. But I know that you pledged£500 for each letter published in the original book that was split between Women for Women International and War Child. And I know you plan to do the same for the sequel. Why is that charity so, or those charities, why do they mean so much to you? I mean, I've done quite a bit of work with both of them over the years. And it's twofold. It's one because both of the charities work, you know, with women and children in war zones. And, you know, I know for myself that I have no idea what it's like to try and live from one day to the next with a city that's undergoing bombing or is in a state of post-war and trying to keep oneself alive, raise children, put one's life back together again in that state of trauma.

22:25I can only imagine what that must be like. And I know that even in the West, in a very comfortable, privileged world, I struggle myself, you know, in the smallest and sometimes small and sometimes big ways, even without the backdrop of conflict. And so the fact that there are organizations that do real time work on the ground and show up for people and let them know that they're not alone and that we see them and hear them and are there for them, I think is vital. But also, both organizations offer real mental health, first aid. Women for Women also offer support in terms of teaching women about their bodies and their rights and their rights to their bodies and their legal rights.

23:25But they also then end up working with the communities and inside the communities to make sure that the whole community is educated so that they can work together to move forward and so that women don't feel alone and afraid if they are speaking against a say patriarchal both community and culture. We are so grateful to those incredible organizations and charities for the brilliant work that they do. You touched on mental health there and your own mental health and you know sometimes struggling as we all do I know you practice meditation but are there other ways that you look after yourself and preserve your mental health and also how do you do it when you're juggling you know acting writing you have your own brand g-spot you do so many brilliant things how do you carve out that time for yourself I actually just to clarify I don't meditate on a I would like to and I aim to and I often struggle and I've just started to get back into it again and you know it's ridiculous that something that has such a positive impact on so many areas of my life is something that is often the first to go when I get busy but how do I juggle Oh, sometimes I don't.

24:45There's always a ball that's dropped at some point along the way. I have a great support system who is very helpful at picking up the balls that are on the floor. And yeah, I don't know. I think I have to say age has a lot to do with it. I feel like in my younger years, I struggled a lot more emotionally to balance things. And I think I find it easier to compartmentalize and to let things go and not take things too seriously. And just, I don't pay attention to the noise anymore, which is very freeing. But that's easier said than done, because the noise is noisier than it's ever been. And social media didn't exist when you first started out.

25:34So it does feel now harder to shut off. It does. I don't have social media on my phone. That really makes a big difference. So I only tap in when I'm looking at one of my kids' posts. And other than that, I don't. And I've got a very fantastic woman who helps manage my personal account. And then my business accounts are run by a team. And it helps to keep my head in the right place. And if there are things that I need to be paying attention to or when there's something going on that I need to be mindful of, it will be brought to my attention. Well, this is becoming a common theme amongst our guests for this series.

26:21no one seems to have social media apps on their phone so maybe that is that we've unlocked the key to success interesting but there's so much more that I want to talk to you about but we're running out of time so I think the last question I have to ask is you're of course an incredible woman who are your incredible women of 2025 I'm gonna say Meryl Streep again I have to say a friend of mine is currently working with her I've never worked with her myself actually a couple of women I know are working with her and every day they remark on what a joy and a gift it is to be in her presence as a human being and as an actor and a fellow collaborator and I'm always going to say Michelle Obama and I really wish she would bloody run for president and it's never going to happen but I'm sorry I just she could be the answer to everything and so I think she'll be my answer forevermore.

27:20Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Gillian, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. We cannot wait to see you in your three amazing projects all coming out at the end of this year. We're so excited for the sequel of your book and yeah, it's just been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much. Really nice to see you again, Alice. And congratulations on your now year and a half year old son. Yes, thank you very much. Yeah, now you're still standing.

28:15The creative director is Ruth Barnes. To make sure you catch all the episodes in this series, subscribe via the platform you use to stream your podcasts. For more information, visit netaporte.com.