Middleburg’s Awards Clout, AFI Fest picks, Inside del Toro’s 'Frankenstein' with producer Miles Dale

15:05And then three or four years later, boom, there I am. And I said to my wife, honey, do you mind sitting with the kids? And my mom and I went to the Oscars. We heard our name called and it was kind of a great, really a greater night than it could have ever been imagined. So, yeah, it's wonderful.

15:23Miles Dale:So The Shape of Water was a was a remarkable, complicated, difficult, challenging movie. You had to create the creature. You had to interact with other human beings, actors. You had to make that period work. This one, Frankenstein, is on an entirely different scale beyond that. But The Shape of Water must have, in a weird way, prepared you for this, even if you had to go much bigger and more grandiose, if you like. Well, it was very helpful for me. You know, Guillermo and I have been working together for about 15 years now. The first time was on Mama when he was directing Pacific Rim. But at the same time, he had committed to produce Mama with a first-time director, Andy Muschietti, and he needed someone to produce it.

16:11our mutual friend Edgar Wright introduced us I had produced The Shape of Water and and you know Guillermo was going to come and shoot Pacific Rim in Toronto so we said let's shoot in Toronto same studio you can be down the hall if I need you or if Andy needs you and and so that was our first time together and then we did four years of The Strain a TV series and that was my first time producing him as a director on that pilot and so that was a toe dip but then when we got to The Shape of Water, you know, I really got to sort of work with him in a producer-director capacity and got a feel of that, you know, that that I had sort of admired from having seen his films and soaked up from, you know, our discussions together.

16:51And then, of course, Nightmare Alley, which was a very different film, but I had always known that, you know, he had two great white whales, and they were Pinocchio and Frankenstein. And, you know, I knew that, you know, he had seen James Whale's movie when he was seven. He had read the book when he was 11. And, you know, we had discussed it. But, you know, you don't want to necessarily poke the bear. When are we going to do this? When are we? Because, you know, a lot of studios and people in Hollywood had passed on it. He knew he was going to want to do it right. And so when it came time a few years ago, you know, and we realized we were going to do it, we knew that the hill we had to climb.

17:33we knew what the expectations would be we knew that he had been thinking about it for a long time and of course we knew his his his style and that the bar would be high so you know it certainly wouldn't have been great if that had been the first movie I had produced for him but I felt like you know my muscles and those of our collaborators were stretched pretty nicely to be ready for it Okay.

17:58Miles Dale:So I thought what I would do here is just, I know this is such a gargantuan enterprise that we're looking at, but I want to get a sense of what the producer has to orchestrate and make happen and how you help, you know, make everything come out on time. It's like you're trying to cook a meal and everything has to come out at the right time. And what the what the real challenges were for you. We could start with costumes. We could start with production design. We could start with cinematography. You go for it. Whatever you think we need to know in a timely, chronological maybe way. You presumably start with production design first.

18:44Yes. I mean, in fact, Niermo's philosophy is that production design, there are four legs of the table and it's production design, costume design, cinematography, and hair and makeup are kind of the four basics and they all work together. So, you know, in terms of the, you know, the color coding and, you know, contrast and how, you know, lighting, you know, different colors work differently in different lighting. So the fact that we have a shorthand between, you know, those people, Kate Hawley costumes, Tamara Deverell production design, Dan Lauschen cinematography, and then Mike Hill, our brilliant sculptor that all happens together and there's nothing really arbitrary about it so so you know the the the shorthand that we have having worked together for so long everybody comes together it really starts with in this case a lot of it started with you know not just the source material but Guy Davis who is Guillermo's longtime concept designer did a lot of concept sketches and and And frankly, the inspiration before that was Bernie Wrightson's illustrations that he did that inspired Guillermo's sort of visual palette for the film.

19:51So we had a pretty good anchor from Bernie Wrightson, then to Guy Davis, and that led us to scouting and then production design. So that's the right order. But what was great that we had a lot to look at in terms of reference prior to that. and then everyone sort of comes together with that. But, you know, as you know, Guillermo is a craft junkie and so, you know, like, you know, we made a lot of fabrics and our paint department was incredibly meticulous and we had a moss squad that was, you know, laying moss into place. So it got very granular in terms of the design. I feel like, you know, Guillermo, as we know, you know, that's what he does.

20:36And so he's able to articulate very clearly what he wants, which is great. You know, that can sometimes be an issue with some directors that it's like, you know, they say, show me some stuff. And with Guillermo, it's sort of a different thing. It's like, here are some references. Here are endless books and pictures and everything else that can inspire everybody and give them some guidance. So, you know, for my part, I'm really, for lack of a better word, a traffic cop in all of that, making sure the communication is good, making sure, you know, things are done in kind of a timely way. but our group and the cohesion that we have based on the time that we've worked together really makes that a little bit easier and I think helped with such a big project like this.

21:15Miles Dale:Well, one of the curves that you were thrown was that Andrew Garfield was supposed to play the monster and you had designed everything around him and his specific body, his specific face, everything. What was the timeline when you realized that you didn't have him and you had to repurpose everything for Jacob Elordi. Yeah. So Mike Hill had been sculpting with Andrew and, and we, there was a schedule conflict, you know, coming out of the strikes that, that made it such that he wasn't able to do it. And we found that out nine weeks before shooting, which, you know, with this complicated, uh, sculpt and, and everything that that entailed, you know, 42 pieces because Guillermo wanted to do it, you know, in a certain way.

21:59Um, it was a real challenge. And, and so, you know, Mike came to play and, and again, you know, we, we like to think that we take what the universe gives us and, and, and, you know, because hopefully we've got good karma, but when Jacob came to us, all six foot six of him.

22:18Miles Dale:Really? He's a different bot. Andrew's tall, but not that tall, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, you can't teach height, you know, I'll tell you, it was a very busy weekend talking to the agents of a few different actors figuring out how we were going to fill that it was that was anxiety weekend um but you know when jacob came to us and what was so interesting is that jacob the previous summer had shot priscilla in toronto with some people that i know and with our production designer and he had asked tamara oh what are you doing next and she said oh i'm doing frankenstein with girmum and he goes god i'd love to play the creature in that movie.

22:56And we only found out about that conversation, you know, when he came to us. So, you know, again, in terms of, you know, the forces of the universe aligning, we felt that that was, you know, really very fortunate. And of course, you've seen the film and Jacob is absolutely remarkable. He really is.

23:15Miles Dale:He's very empathetic. And he's scary, too, though. You need him at the beginning in the frozen wastes. You need him. All right. You need him to be really big and scary and and he is um can you can you what are the challenges of making that kind of is it really frozen are you really in the snow what what are you what is the setup there with the big ship in the in the wastes of of the arctic or whatever that is well we were we started the film up in a place called north bay that was several hours north of toronto on a frozen lake so the scenes that you see with uh victor on the sled and standing out in the ice with those beautiful sunsets and the tent, the, you know, the, the, the, the, the sailors marching to the tent on fire.

23:56Those are done, uh, on a beautiful frozen lake at sunset on a very cold day with everyone, big, big jackets. And then with the ship, we built the ship, uh, actually in our parking lot outside the studio with a sort of an ice esplanade that we made, you know, where we could get up to it. And the ship itself, that was a crazy project. It was 130 feet long. It had to, be able to hold you know a hundred or more people between the sailors and the crew and then when you see you know the creature pushing the ship that's for real well we had a gimbal on the other not sure if you know what a gimbal is but it's it's it's i do makes these things movement and a giant gimbal major engineering project to be able to move the ship around so that in and of itself and and you know we consulted with and we had a major rigging team who were expert in, you know, the ships of the 1800s and what that rigging would look like.

24:51And they came and rigged it. So, you know, the, the, I will say the level of artisanship that we would normally use in A Shape of Water or A Nightmare Alley, you know, period movies, it just went to a whole new level with this in terms of, you know, the, the, the, the science and, you know, going to the Hunterian Museum in London to say, you know, what did the Evelyn tables look like? And what was the science of the day? And then these guys with the ships and everything else. So, you know, you learned a lot about some things that you didn't think you needed to know but but again reaching out you know with all of those tentacles for this movie was kind of an interesting um uh extension of what we normally do the ship was really kind of an insane project to be able to to tackle that and and and figure out how to make it work and and to rig it and to light it and to get people in and out and to you know have it moving back and forth and then to get our our painters to to do that very, very convincing ice on, you know, that length of ship.

25:48And then when the creature falls in, you know, that was a tank that was off the bow of the ship. It was like a shipping container that we put into our esplanade where when he falls in, he's going into water and then he has to come out the back of that with a scuba diver and, you know, it makes your brain hurt some days.

26:06Miles Dale:I can't imagine. And how, when you've got the wind blow, you just have wind machines, right? with with with the snow that's major standard issue yeah volkswagen engines blowing snow in and guys up in lift you know it's uh uh i'm waiting for the macy's parade to call us or you know some atmosphere all right so then the other extraordinary production design thing of course is the castle whatever we call it in in uh which does remind me of crimson peak there's some elements of crimson peak there. Um, but, um, uh, there's no red blood so much in the snow, but did we, did we do that again? No, no. Okay.

26:46No, there, there was a little bit with the, with the creature's blood in the beginning, but I mean, there was enough blood when he was sawing the legs and carrying the bags around.

26:54Miles Dale:Oh, that was so disgusting. So gross. All right. So, so you had the, um, the, the scale of that is extraordinary. It's beyond Crimson Peak, but you also had, you know, gizmos and machines and explosions. And the whole design of that thing is enormous and extraordinary. Can you talk about some of the challenges there? Sure. Well, first discussion was what was Victor's lab going to be? And Guillermo, after some research, you know, we moved the film forward a little bit for, you know, reasons of mostly scientific achievements to ground it in in in some certain things but Guillermo was thinking where should Victor's lab be and he he came to believe that it would be in a water tower so because there were some things that we needed to do and and so that was the the sort of the conceptual genesis of of of what the lab was and and that actually was about eight different sets so when we go into it on on the exterior that was something that we built on a fairground interestingly the same fairground where we made the carnival for nightmare alley inside baseball moment there um and then and then when we go in there was there was the the sort of the foyer lobby set where you know we we come and go and then where the creature comes at the end there was that set then there was the lab the the lab beat up and then the lab in its various um evolution uh victor's quarters the top of the tower the top top top of the tower where he climbs so it was it was and then and then pardon me the the um the monster lair where the creature lives yeah yeah uh down the bottom and then of course the the water thing escape yeah tube which is you know not such a subtle um uh metaphor for a birth canal correct um uh where he goes out into the water that was important for his uh escape um so all of those things you know as they were conceptualized and as we put them together um uh guillermo realized that that that was going to be kind of the right um way to way to you know set it so so you know again that was a lot of conceptualizing and how was it going to work and how could you understand the geography and and how could we build all those sets and you know the space that it required and and you know some sets i mean that that giant exterior where they pull up in the horse and carriage and where it blows up and where victor you know gets shot out that was probably four months to build and we shot there for three days and and and it provided the base for you know the tower that we did and then finally and interestingly we did um some miniatures you know again this is all very handmade and like we really tried to minimize the cg yeah and emphasize the craft and so what we we did we went to britain we used a company called the magic camera company and we did the miniature so when you see the batteries fall over in the lab and into the hole um those things instead of being the 15 foot high batteries are about um three feet high and and and so that was done You're not going to be able to control those batteries that way.

30:17And then the same thing with the exterior of the tower. We built smaller versions, about 15 feet high for those explosions. So I think a lot of people might think that those are computer graphics, but they're not. And for me, by the way, I had never done miniatures. So again, that was a whole new thing, trying to understand how that works and what it needs and how to shoot it and frame rates and everything else. So so we were we were kind of in some new territory, which is, you know, thrilling and also anxiety making in some ways. But, you know, it all it all kind of worked out.

30:52Miles Dale:Well, aside from the Jacob Elordi switcheroo, would you can you tell me what was the biggest challenge? The thing that kept you up at night or or turned out to be a problem that you didn't expect? something that you had to overcome and and say save the day you know on the on on the shoot you know to be perfectly honest my biggest fear was not living up to Guillermo's expectations and I think that that was you know knowing how important it was to him yeah it had been for him and I think for all of us you know not to say it was like you know the the religious experience but it was like we knew that we had to, you know, really bring our A game.

31:38So every day, you know, there was really no compromises. And of course, you can't say no compromises because, you know, there's still a budget. And but we really had to say, OK, how can we how can we stretch? So, you know, there was certainly the weather, you know, where you're shooting things, you're trying to, you know, convey the Arctic and cold. and you know we were still shooting that ship in you know april you know on a day when it was like 75 degrees so you know that those are always and believe me i've shot a number of movies where you know you're shooting a christmas movie in in august or something and people are sweating their asses off in these coats and you're talking to costumes and say you know can we get some breathable wool or you know or you're shooting a summer movie in december and you get a hurricane or a snowstorm so we've done all that but you know that was certainly an issue i think the length of the thing was an issue so it really kind of tested you know we started shooting in february and we

32:37Miles Dale:finished at the end of september with a short that's a long time in july so you know that was a uh and remember coming out of the strikes we had to all those actors and they're big actors we had to rejig schedules and everything so there was a lot of bit of a rubik's cube of um of scheduling with the actors for such a long time in fact christoph did a movie when we went to shoot the miniatures for six weeks christoph did a whole movie in the middle so you know i'll commend the actors for their commitment to the project so you know not only you know us guillermo's sort of you know um you know long time uh associates but the actors really leaned in uh as well so you know there were the challenges of the length the challenges of the weather, the challenges of, you know, getting things on time, turning sets around, and those other things, the challenges of only having nine weeks to, you know, deal with Jacob, not only with the prosthetics, but also with movement.

33:34Also, he was coming off his Australian miniseries where he had lost a ton of weight. He was playing a prisoner of war. So we had to sort ease him back into, you know, um, um, uh, a nutritional situation that was, that was a little bit of a challenge and that, you know, so he went from a guy who was, you know, losing a hell of a lot of weight to play a concentration camp, you know, um, a prisoner to a guy who's, you know, now having to stuff his face with pizzas to be, you know, a big, strong, you know, monster. So, so, so those kinds of things, it was just, you know, something different every day, But, you know, always, always soup song of of delights.

34:17Miles Dale:This is one hundred and twenty million, right? Is that the budget? So that's a healthy budget. But actually, given how great this movie looks and how complicated it is, it doesn't it feels like it could have been more to me. It absolutely could have been more. I mean, you know, Shape of Water was 20 million and we thought that was remarkable. and but with what we did on this the length of schedule the sets we build and everything else you know this was still you know we think pretty remarkable for what it was um you know the good the good thing about guillermo too is he's a good producer and he understands even though there weren't going to be any compromises he he he doesn't want to spend stupid money so you know he and i can have those conversations about you know where where we can be smart and everything else.

35:04So, so he's hard to do that.

35:06Miles Dale:Yeah, you two have done a lot of movies together. You know, you know how it works. That's true. This is, experience is your, is your ally in this situation, right? Yeah. So, so we had been through that a few times in, in, at various levels and, you know, with Nightmare Alley, you know, we had to stop for six months for COVID. So that was yet another, you know, we've had no shortage of experiences that way. And, and, and this was yet another one but like i said this was the one that we knew that at the end of it all um uh there could be no regrets there could be no change your mind and that was the thing that was most important to me and and to all those people that have worked with him for so long that we'd be able to look him in the eye at the end and say is this everything that you wanted it to be and have him say yes it was and i have no regrets because you know when you when once your dream is done what is there left to do, you know, and, and, and it was that way with Pinocchio, which ended very well.

36:02And, and hopefully it's the same with this movie. So I, this is, this is a beautiful movie.

36:08Miles Dale:It's playing well. Um, I was just at Middleburg where it played, played very well. Um, and I, I, uh, I saw it at Telluride. It played well there, you know, so, so what is, what is the, uh, we got to wrap this up, but just one editing question. You had to keep this to a reasonable length, and that must have been a challenge, must have been a tricky one. Well, so Guillermo knew that he wanted to be somewhat faithful to the material, maybe more faithful to the material. The original book, the Mary Shelley book. The Mary Shelley book. And, you know, as he does identify with monsters, you know, he he has said to me, you know, Boris Karloff, when he was seven, was the first time that he he felt he had really been seen.

37:01You know, he really identified. So he wanted to make sure that we could get the creature's point of view, which I think is something that's unique about our film. Is it that that that you do hear the creatures? You know, let me now tell you my tale.

37:15Miles Dale:And he speaks. And he speaks and he articulates. And then you see, you know, not in a Rashomon way, but then, you know, when you go off and he's off with the blind man and you see it. So at one point, this was discussed as being two movies. So it was either going to be one long movie or two movies. But, you know, the creature's tale was shorter. And so the balance felt wrong. So it's like, OK, let's go. one movie and i will say the first cut was very long and so and guillermo's always been quite disciplined about running time uh i mean before nightmare alley you know he had never had a movie over two hours so it was a challenge but like the first cut was well over three hours and so it was it was absolutely surgical trying to get it to this length and that's why you know we felt like the pacing is pretty good.

38:11You know, you don't want to sort of take length for granted with an audience and he doesn't. So, you know, that was much discussed and in a highly kind of disciplined way. What's the final running time? It's just under two and a half hours.

38:30Miles Dale:Okay. It doesn't feel long. It doesn't. It plays really well. Well, I want to thank you for coming on and for talking to us. And we barely, I think there's an entire iceberg under the tip that we just unveiled. But I applaud you for all of your energy and efforts and skill in this universe. And what you do is very hard. And I appreciate it. Well, thanks, Anne. Hopefully our beautiful ship doesn't hit the iceberg in the next few weeks. All right. Talk to you later. Great. Thank you so much. Have a great day.