IM 864: And Artemis Too - Journalism In The Age Of AI

31:43Yeah. When you were at Medium, you were recruiting known writers to come there. And one of the services that you offered, the snob that I am, I just want this, was editing help. And a lot of people took you up on that at the time. Is that kind of the same motif here that you're offering things that can be helpful to writers if they wish? I'm hearing that from you from your internal writers, what are you seeing for people who are using these tools for things outside of Every? What are you hearing in terms of feedback from writers elsewhere? Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know that I have a reliable handle on how others are saying it outside of, again, I've read some of the same news reports and read the discourse that Paris was referring to.

32:35I don't - I mean about using Every's tools specifically. Oh, I'm sorry. These tools aren't used just for every writer's, right? They can be used by anybody who's a member. Yeah. So who do you find is the target for that? Who finds that useful? And are you speaking specifically about the writing tool or other tools? No, I guess all of them. As a writer, I think I start there. But yeah. Well, I think they are people, you know, in general who have, who productivity is something that they are in general interested in, because these are all tools that are meant to help you in some way be more productive or however you might define that.

33:15And maybe that's better writing. Maybe that's spending less time writing. Maybe that's spending less time on a first draft and instead getting that first draft out and then spending the time refining something. So we've, And again, I think it's very individual in how people use it. I do think that there is a lot of... So for instance, when Spiral started, when Dan built Spiral, it was like, well, we create podcasts every week. You create a podcast every week. But it's not just the podcast. It's the tweet. It's the LinkedIn post. It's the article. It's the Discord. It's the this. It's the that.

33:52And that all just takes time and time that we wanted to spend doing other things. And so we certainly know that, you know, in cases, again, that was the use case that Spiral came out of. But like, that is one way that like, you know, I don't want to be spending my time, as I said, writing these, writing, you know, marketing emails and things like that. But we're seeing use cases of like all across. Again, the data is showing people are using it for books, people are using it for proposals, people are using it for, you know, LinkedIn posts, which is probably no surprise, just what we all see on LinkedIn.

34:29But people are really, you know, the use cases are across the board. What was your AI learning journey? What has it been like? It's a great question. I actually was just on our podcast a couple of weeks ago talking about it because I have traditionally, I love to edit. Like my happy place when I'm like, I have a million things to do. It's like, oh, maybe I can just edit this piece. that is where I feel like I can just do my thing and I know what I'm doing and it's a measure of control and I get a lot of satisfaction out of it. So this was a journey for me as well. And I should say I read and edit, a top edit every single piece that goes out.

35:14So that is absolutely a core part of my job. But I also have to spend a lot of time, I have a small team. Up until like four months ago, I had like half a person on my team. I didn't even have like a full-time staffer. How am I going to get all this stuff done? I was hiring a bunch of people, was glad to be able to hire a few people, had a bunch of open roles. And I was essentially, you know, this is one case sort of outside of writing, I should just say, where I really saw the potential. But, like, I don't want to spend my time wrangling notion. I don't want to spend my time in settings, right, you know, setting up pages and connecting databases.

35:57Like, that's just not where I shine. There are other people for whom that is second nature. It's not for me. And so if I can essentially work with, you know, whether it's Cloud Code or at the time it was OpenAI's Atlas to essentially just tell it to do it, that frees up an enormous amount of time for me. From the writing and editing perspective, Jeff, it's interesting because Dan, our co-founder and CEO, he's been saying basically since GPT-3 came out that he really wanted to automate the sort of rote parts of my job, like the copy editing. He just was like, I just don't want to see you deleting commas or whatever it is.

36:43It's just a waste of your time. And he was trying, and this is before tools that allowed you to vibe code really came out, but he was really trying to build something like an internal copy editor that would do it. And every time, I mean, this was several times over the past couple of years, he'd be like, I built it. I want you to try it. And then I would try it and I would be like, yeah, it didn't catch all of these things. And so we're not using it. And so, you know, it's but it's sort of been like every three to six months, there's been a different version of that that he would present to me.

37:16And I would be like, it would get better and better. But I would still I mean, I also still I'm like Google Docs is like my, you know, don't don't don't take Google Docs for me. But but but but so it was it was for me also like, OK, this is getting better. This is getting better. It's not great yet. This is getting better. okay there there is a point at which and it really was lat last year sometime and then of course with with with um uh anthropic release releasing opus 24th is what happened yes i know it was the big the big moment where it was a clear tipping point of like yeah oh if i don't do this it's actually going to hold me back do you worry about jobs though i mean um i often think i could probably at some point, not yet, automate the entire workflow for this podcast network, except for my wife, because, you know, but everybody else.

38:14But those people, first of all, I really enjoy working with them. I like having them as colleagues. And yeah, maybe I could automate their work, but it seems like that's kind of a grim future for a lot of people. I don't necessarily have the answer to that. I do think that what it has enabled and what I think it ultimately enabled and what technology has done is opening up new jobs, new jobs that maybe don't even exist yet, different kinds of jobs. I mean, the prompt engineer was was not a job for a few years ago. And again, I think that I think prompt engineering is more of a skill now that that a lot of people have rather than job.

38:58But but but again, that's just an example of something that that came out. I think, you know, I think I don't think it's going to be easy, but I think that if you embrace these tools in ways that are comfortable to you and are germane to how you work in your world, because I really think it fits. It's not just the AI, it's the AI and the human expertise. And that's where you're seeing so much of this, so much of these tools and so much of these gains being made. And so I do think that ultimately there will be new opportunities and new things for people to be doing. If I never have to copy paste into different forms again, I will be so happy.

39:44I just never want to have to do it again. Every.2 is the website we're talking to, the editor-in-chief. And we're so glad to have you on, Kate. uh and i by the way you see i signed up for the wait list for uh plus one okay a lot of interesting tools on here this is a very interesting site because it as i mentioned at the beginning it's a newsletter yes it's columns yes it's a podcast but it's also uh products like of like voice dictations you know helping you write uh all sorts of stuff including uh someday soon is are you actually are some people set up with plus one now or is it is it not out yet so internally we're set up with plus ones and we're just now letting um some people off the wait list um but it's it's just the the product wasn't quite ready to to let people off until now but we're starting to um and we've had some beta testers and of course that's just been really useful to get feedback and some of these tools you get with your subscription i'm going to download and install monologue for sure which is the voice dictation and the automatic file organization sounds pretty darn cool.

40:51And the email assistant, God knows I need that. So there's a lot of interesting, so it's tools. Oh, and I didn't even mention you're doing these events. In fact, there's one coming up in a couple of days and these are all virtual. So you can attend them from wherever you are. This is Every and Notion, a custom agents camp. But look at all the events you're going to do, Claude Code for Finance, Writing Camp, Claude Code for Beginners, Open Claw Camp. There's a bunch of stuff coming up. And it's your team that leads these or do you bring in people? Yeah, no, I mean, I basically oversee the camps and I work with a colleague to run the courses as well.

41:31So definitely wear a lot of hats. The camps are free for paid subscribers and the courses are for a fee, although we have discounts for paid subscribers. But yeah, it's a lot, but it's great. It's a lot of fun. If I were going to put it under a dome, I'd say it's about a community. It sounds like you're building an Every.2 community of people who have an interest in this and who want to use these tools. And it sounds like it's a very interactive space to participate in that. And that I love. I think that's kind of what podcasting was all about from the beginning, but we've kept it to just kind of a narrow slot.

42:13You're expanding. Get busy, Leo. Start podcoding. Well, I need 20 assistants. Maybe plus one will fix that. I don't know. You can get a few. I do have to ask before you leave, what's up with the horse head behind you? That was, you know, that was came up earlier when I just hopped on. That was a leftover from Halloween that I think we had a little Halloween party. And then we very recently in like the past, I don't know, two to three weeks actually made this into a real podcast studio. And so we felt like it needed to have a place of honor. They did an offer. Good morning, Phyllis. Delightful.

42:48You could donate your log, Paris. I do have a log, a fake log. It's a long story. It is true. Part of a Halloween costume. Twin Peaks. Yes, she was a log lady. Kaylee, thank you so much. Thank you for discovering Jeff. Appreciate that. actually really seriously thank you for introducing us to jeff kind of in an indirect way but uh that's been a very uh you can't get rid of me over many kate got rid of me she left the field yeah but still all these years later here we are here we are here we showed up like a bad penny kate lee thank you so much i think everybody should check out every dot too uh there's a 30-day free trial i think so you can try it and see what you think and I'm very interested.

43:30It sounds like a community that we've, it's a large one already. It says 85 ,000 subscribers. I think we're actually up to about 125 ,000. We haven't updated our language, but yes, we're thrilled you're there. And you have a direct in if you want to send me any feedback, good or bad. Okay. I'll wait for my invitation. Okay. Plus one. Thank you, Caitlin. Thank you. Good to see you. Bye guys. Take care. We will continue with Intelligent Machines and don't worry we're a half an hour away from the Artemis 2 launch and we'll cover that when that happens as well you're watching intelligent machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis our show today brought to you by Stash have you dabbled in investing here and there but haven't been happy with how things are going Stash helps turn good intentions into consistent progress Stash isn't just another investing app it's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with expert personalized guidance so you don't have to worry about gambling or figuring out on your own stash is simple it's smart it's stress free you could choose from personalized investments or let stash's award-winning smart portfolio do the work for you or even pick a combo of both stash is there to guide you every step of the way join over 1 million active stash subscribers and finally let your money work as hard as you do don't let your money sit around put it to work with stash go to get.stash.com slash im to see how you can receive 25 toward your first stock purchase and to view important disclosures that's get.stash.com i am get.stash.com i am paid non-client endorsement not a guarantee nor representative of all clients Smart portfolios are discretionary, managed accounts, and subject to additional fees.

45:25See the advisory agreement and deposit account agreement for details. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments, LLC, and SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk. I just realized you're wearing a corn shirt. I don't know how it fully did not track. Because it just seems so normal. It really does. at a certain point you wear so many bombastic shirts they all kind of blur together wait a minute did you call my shirts bombastic i like that i like that as a clothesline you just start bombastic bombastic clothes for the weirdo in us all well anyway yeah you know paris did you have an allergic reaction to what we were just talking about or yes i mean frankly my bad for not jumping it i uh had a i was a little late to the record today because i have had a long and complicated day at work so i prepared a little less for this than i would normally and frankly when it comes to doing a confrontational interview or an interview style where you're heavily disagreeing someone i think that you need to actually come with significantly more prep than usual that opinion may not be shared by everybody on this panel no i agree with you i agree with you 100%.

46:40So I was a little just listening and learning. I just thought it was also a very interesting interview because this has been, I mean, it doesn't sound like her products are necessarily for journalists or people whose primary output is exclusively writing in the same way. You know who I actually think it's for is my wife. It's for Lisa, who is very interested in AI. It's not a technologist, uses tools like Grammarly for her writing. And I think she's taken a class in AI. And I think she's, I think this is very common. She's a CEO. She's a CFO by training. And I think that there is a lot of interest at that level of people in AI, but they don't really know where to go or what to do and what to start with.

47:24If you're a writer, you like to write. And you don't want somebody to write it for you. That's... I mean, this has been a whole, this has been like the topic of discussion on journalist Twitter. Oh, I know. This past week. Because people feel like it's not real. It's not right. There are a couple of stories that I think are on the rundown that touch on this. There was a Wired report that asked a bunch of different kind of newsletter writers and tech reporters about how they're using AI. And a lot of them were like, I think Alex Heath had said that he feeds a lot of his sourcing material and stuff to a LLM and has it write a first draft for him.

48:06And then he kind of goes from there and he's like, well, you know, the hardest part about writing is always like going from zero to one on your first draft. And I agree. That's very difficult. But the reason why that is hard is because that's where your thinking happens. It's very difficult to sit. And our job is to synthesize a large amount of material collected through these interesting ways and highlight the value and report that out and write that out in a way that is illustrative to the reader. I believe it can be useful for you. It can definitely be useful. Yeah, you have all those PDFs you need to comb through and stuff like that.

48:42Yeah, you just have to be aware of the fact that if you're talking about using AI to produce the core part of your output, you're going to get something that is sanded down at the edges. I agree. It's going to be an output that is by definition, not very special or particularly excellent because it is an average of a lot of different things. And that, I don't know, over time, I think is going to just result in not the sort of work you want to be doing. I will say, I think like we've talked about in this show before, the areas I think are most useful for AI application and journalism are like when I have a folder full of right now, like 20 different PDFs, maybe actually maybe like 50 that are all various scientific studies on a crazy amount of things that I've gone and found and nowhere relevant.

49:32And I am now writing and reporting something and I'm like, God, where's that one that says this about that? I could totally do that. Asking notebook LM to go through it. And I have all of my documents in there. It tells me what thing I'm, that's phenomenal. It's so helpful. I'll give you two other examples. This week, I was invited to write a blurb for a book by an author I admire tremendously. And I was blocked. I couldn't get started on it. It was weird. And so I asked AI to write one. And it was crap. I didn't use it. But it unblocked me. Right. it made me see okay oh right that's kind of laxative it's like a laxative it's kind of it's kind of uh you know milk of magnesia for writers is that what you're saying more like uh um it's like a laxative yeah that's a crazy thing to say leo couldn't you don't alka-seltzer it's more like you broke it up it'd be better it's just like you gotta throw a second one in there it's just for marketing but on the other hand i had a copy editor uh on my new book i don't want to speak too much out of school, but what the hell I will, who spent a lot of time adding P period and PP period to the footnotes and worried about italic commas.

50:44That should be an AI. Turned my four dot ellipses into three dots, which were all wrong. I didn't want the P and PP. I wanted my four dots. I wanted this. He didn't challenge me. There was only one challenge in the whole thing. And I want a copy editor to challenge me. I wanted one of your characters to do that. and I put it through and I asked it some simple questions like what are my ticks and it found writing ticks that I had done too much so I could go through that's good that was useful that's useful but reaction you know unblocking reaction I think those things can be useful now as I enter as I work on the next book I do have these folders filled with PDFs and I can imagine doing things like there's in the invention of the of the amplifier it's a very complicated time frame I might ask it to do a timeline for me just so I can keep that straight in my own head.

51:38Not make it wrong, but at least it becomes a working structure. But I would never, I agree with you, Paris, I would never go at it. Let me just, one more thing. So this week in Sacrifice for the Show, I went and watched in the theater, the AI doc. Which one? Oh my God. It's the one that's out in theaters now. Isn't there two? I don't think so. Isn't that the whole thing? Oh, I didn't know that. This is the one that's, it's Tristan Harris's star turn. Yeah, we talked about it last week. It drives me nuts. But, you know, it's also because I hadn't had popcorn in the theater in six years. You should have gone to see Project Hail Mary.

52:12Which theater did you go to? The Reading, whatever, Manville Theater. It's in the suburbs. Wouldn't it? There were three people, including me, in the theater. Really? Yeah. This thing is subsidized. It's like Melania. It's subsidized to get it out there. So the Doomer subsidized it. But at one point, he's trying to, the guy's playing the dog, I don't know what AI is, what's AI? And then straight from straight, it comes back, it's patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns. And it strikes me that, yes, that's what AI is good at, to your point, Paris. It's going to find and replicate those patterns.

52:44To me, I came to realize creativity is breaking the patterns. Creativity is seeing the different path to go. And AI is never going to do that. And so I think it's useful in some ways to get things done. but in terms of what we do, in terms of trying to think that we work creatively and find unique value and human interest in things, that's still our job. I think - Yeah. And I mean, well, I think you're right, Jeff, in what you're noting, that it can be useful in finding these patterns and maybe like having moments where like you're blocked and you just want to try and get something on a page. But I also think it's important to emphasize that there is great usefulness in that struggle, you know?

53:25Yes, yes. Trying to find those patterns yourself and really struggling with it and struggling to… Oh, I agree. I think I want to resist the patterns. Like, trying to even, like, even if you are, I don't know, doing all of this work yourself and then realizing that, hey, there's something about this that is blocking me and I'm not able to succinctly analyze this or identify the patterns and synthesize it onto a page is useful data in and of itself. I think that obviously there are situations where using a tool like this to expedite that process could be useful, but you have to understand what the tradeoff is.

54:03And the tradeoff is that you're not thinking as much. You aren't getting as deep of an understanding of the material. The outputs could be wrong. And I think you have to be okay with making that trade. And I don't know, the thing that worries me is that we are setting ourselves up in a system where even just taking writing and journalism, for example, you have these institutional pressures to produce for a lot of journalists more and more, faster and faster for less and less money. And that leads to people feeling like they have to turn to these tools in order to make it work somehow. But the output is not going to be half as good, ultimately.

54:45Okay, we're about 15 minutes away from the launch. So I want to just do a few news stories so we can cover what's going on. Because there's a lot going on right now in the AI space. Some big stuff. the biggest one i think of the week is the leak of claude code's source code this is an inadvertent leak uh apparently it's not clear uh anthropic said it was a human error it could easily been a vibe coded ai error but the leak was immediately pulled down but not fast enough and it has now there are tens of thousands of copies uh anthropic's been putting dmca pull down requests out like crazy trying to trying to get them off the internet not illegal to have it though if you they couldn't really sue you if you just have it right but you know if we would say that's that you can own it like you can have it on your hard drive but people are putting out for instance somebody's ported it over to python and you can download that and there's some question about it's it's originally typescript code there's some question about if you download cloud code in python and run it uh there's 32 000 stars on the github right now i'd be a little nervous about it um but you know i don't know the lawyers will have to weigh in on that there are people who have taken it and done interesting things with it for instance uh ben davis has actually uh taken and put in doom in side cloud code so of course it's really it's an important part of every question you have to answer this question what can it play doom yes and it can easily quite well in fact I don't know why that's such an accomplishment but anyway uh we've seen a lot of interesting analysis of how Claude code works I think I could summarize it by saying it's more than just the model that Claude code almost half a million lines of code The harness is very important to the effectiveness of Claude Code.

56:44It's not just Opus 4.6. A lot of interesting stuff. There is a website that I think, if you're interested, is worth looking at. It's Claude Code Unpacked. And you can actually see the process of how Claude Code works with what you type in, which I think is kind of cool. And it shows the architecture and stuff. it's less it's less of a geeky uh deep dive into the code and more of just a you know kind of a higher level how it works and what it's doing there were some hidden features that showed up there was one that uh i think was intended for april fools it was only supposed to work april 1st through 7th called buddy it was a virtual pet a tamagotchi inside of cloud code that you'd have to keep alive um there is some interesting agentic stuff like something called kairos um there's some very expensive things there's an auto dream mode which i think would be very interesting when you're not using it when you're idle it goes through what happened and organizes it into learnings uh which is potentially very very powerful so this is a nice little site if you just kind of understand what i think surprised you in this um no i don't know if we really learned all that much.

58:05Well, okay. Wasn't there something that tracked the amount of times you cursed at Claude Code? Oh yeah. You want to see that? I could show you that. So this comes from Wes Boss. He was digging into the code just to see a variety of things. For instance, when Claude Code works, it has a verb that goes over and over again, and there are 187 of them. He found the verbs. These are what they call the spinner verbs. These are the words. They filter out 20, I won't say them on the uh air they're kind of george carlin's 25 swears it also keeps track of when you swear at it and uh sends it back to the home office it logs your prompt as negative in their internal analytics west boss says now i think that makes sense because that's a sign that whatever claude did wasn't right and so maybe i wish looking at that voicemail jail would do that yeah yeah

59:01so there was some valuable stuff there was also a mention of copybara i'm sorry i'm getting i get spammed and i have should be in do not disturb when i do these shows i don't know why i'm not i apologize um you live life with your every time your phone it makes a sound oh yeah i'm yolo not only does it make a sound because i have 18 max in this room all of them make a sound what a nightmare there you know it's like my phone hasn't audibly rang in like eight really oh that's nice yeah no no no commercials no phone calls boy they live in silence they live a different world you writers you know how to live the other thing i think is important and this actually is kind of an interesting topic uh they have there is mention in it of capybara we've heard about this mythos model that Anthropic supposedly is getting ready to ship.

59:56I saw one tweet, accurate or not, that said April 16th soon, that is so good that they have held it back and have been warning governments and security experts, this is going to be dangerous when we release it. There's also a rumor it will be extraordinarily expensive. OpenAI is about to release Spud. Both of these models they say are a a step change above what they're already doing which is already very impressive i'm not saying it's not an inspiring spud mythos sounds good right capybara i don't know it just says spud here comes spud your potato uh but it brought up an interesting point that i i kind of think is intriguing what if these companies do release really good agents that are incredibly capable, but price it so that only the wealthy can afford it.

1:00:51mm-hmm why i'm aware just i was gonna say is that not where all of this is going isn't that well technology works all the time isn't it how i mean i don't mean like somebody who can afford a three thousand dollar computer i mean a millionaire i mean somebody who has so much money they can spend ten thousand dollars a month on their volume-based business well if you business or is it a charge here's the people what it costs that's the point for these services yeah that only the extraordinarily wealthy would be able to do it i mean this is probably one of the reasons why there's um a poll that I included in the rundown that one of the takeaways was that a majority of Americans across all ages and political affiliations think AI will do more harm than good to their everyday lives.

1:01:41The only exception is people who make over$200 ,000 a year. They were the only group that was like, yeah, I think AI will do more good. At the same time, people are using AI more than it's just like social media it's the media uh trope being played back in the polls it's the movie you just saw scaring people and actually honestly i think it's also people who encounter ai as chat bots have a very different impression of what ai is and is capable of than people who are encountering it in tools like claude code it's just a very different experience how is claude code is still a chat bot you're interacting with it i mean it's just all i can say is the quality of what you get back from it the capabilities it has how about this you're as opposed i don't use it like a chat bot like you're getting actions from it you're getting you're getting actions from it i'm getting it's writing code i'm not getting i'm saying yeah i'm not saying hey how much is a stamp um yeah but most the average person no they're not going to get any use from coding i understand why would they use that no i'm not saying they should i'm just saying their experience is very different because chat bots are kind of dopey and if you're making silly pictures or if you're asking it you know find the best running shoes for me that's just a very different experience than if you're using it to code and the people are using it to code are seeing a different expression of what ai can do that is much more powerful and much more intriguing that's all i'm saying i'm not saying you should be doing that i'm just saying it's a different different view view of it uh the other thing that's a big story and then we're gonna have to take a break is the big time compromises supply chain compromises uh first on pi pi uh with the light llm and now this one happened yesterday axios which is by the way a library used by claude code the problem is when these are compromised uh people are downloading them and running them without their knowledge even their their libraries that are invoked by other tools you may not know and they this is becoming a real serious problem we talked about light llm last week which is widely used 40 we now know for 47 000 people downloaded it in the 46 minutes it was available these tools are these libraries are downloaded you know light llm is downloaded I think 92 million times a month, more than 3 million times a day.

1:04:27Axios, also extremely popular. So these attacks can really threaten in a big way. We're going to take a break. When we come back, I do want to get us to watch the Artemis II launch. It looks like they're going to go. It's a very nice day. Cape Canaveral. T minus 12 minutes until you. Yeah, we're actually at 10 now. Oh, we've got to refresh on the page. where you're first. Yeah, 10 minutes. So it's a hold. It's a hold of 10 minutes. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, it does look like they're a hold. That's a normal hold, I think. Yeah. I just want to play Walter Cronkite. That's all. So we'll sit here at the watching pad and watch as Artemis II makes its way to the moon.

1:05:09First time we've gone back to the moon in how many years? It's been 30 some years. Hope it's still there. It's full tonight. There's only one way to find out. let's go see they don't get to get out that's all they have to drive around it it's like when you know you're driving down the highway and you saw the drive-in movie and you got a glimpse of the movie but you didn't you didn't get to watch paris have you ever heard of private movies a what in what you surely have been to a drive-in yeah i have well i haven't been to one but i know of the concept you know they still exist there's one or two i have i have not been to one because I don't know where they are.

1:05:50It'd be a good field trip for the Brooklyn gang. I would love that. All piled up to your zip car. During COVID, they brought them back in the Bay Area. There was a bunch of drivers that popped up. Yeah. You get, and you have to park, and there's a hump where you park, because it tilts your car up a little bit. And then there's a speaker on a post, a really crappy metal speaker on a post, that you hang in the window. It's a Bluetooth now, by the way. It's a Bluetooth now. I'm going to be honest. My entire knowledge of drive-in movie theaters, other than just conceptually from reading, is from an episode of the TV show Psych that were a pivotal scene with serial killers took place at a drive-in movie theater.

1:06:32They're scary. They're scary. Yeah, because it's dark and you get out of the car to go to the popcorn stand. Right. Anything could happen. Anything could happen. But then you could not find your car getting back and you're lost. Never happened to me, I have to say. But it was fun for dates. Because it was just the two of you in your car. We're going to take a break, come back with more memories from Gramps. You're watching Intelligent Machines with a couple of old guys and a young lady named Paris Martineau and Mr. Jeff Jarvis. Our show today brought to you by Monarch. I am so glad I have Monarch.

1:07:13I tell you, tax season, right? really gets you to look at your finances monarch is perfect for that because they help you make progress with your money all year long so you don't get to april 15th look back and go what happened where i made a lot where'd it go i love monarch simplify your finances with monarch it's the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier it brings your entire financial life budgeting accounts investments your net worth and future planning all together in one dashboard on your phone it's on your laptop you will feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and you'll get 50 off your monarch subscription with the code i am when you go to monarch.com monarch isn't your average personal finance app i've tried them all by the way unlike most other personal finance apps monarch is built to make you proactive not just reactive you can use the ai tools this is new and i love this built-in monarch intelligence they it's specifically trained by certified financial planners and advisors so it's smart about money you'll get access to the ai assistant 24 7 access to a financial coach accessible from anywhere in monarch from questions about trends in your spending to how you pay off debt it'll help you do that The AI assistant has the answers, smart answers from people who know money.

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1:10:04Let me go full screen on this. There's happy people watching. The chat suggests to me that things are happening. You're not up to date, I don't believe. It's not just a hold? Is it something else? You're not live. It looks like you're not live, Leo. Oh, well, I want to be live. How do I get live? You gotta not be doing... I don't know, but it's not that. Are you sure? I think that's live. Is he live? Because I don't know. The time code at the bottom says there's six hours and 23 minutes into that already. Well, that's just, you know, that's just them. The clock is still top. No, I'm live. Yeah.

1:10:4310 minute countdown. We're cleared for launch. We're just waiting. And by the way, our own intrepid space hosts, Rod Pyle and Tarek Malik are not there. I don't think they're in that. Maybe they are in that audience. uh of dignitary those are dignitaries they're not very dignified i think they're out there at the bleachers you know there's a great seat across the water from the launch pad where you get to see it actually happen and feel it yeah more importantly i was really sad we were uh at the uh kennedy space center uh last month and the rocket had been pulled back they had to put off the launch became this close there they are in the uh in the bleachers that's the bleachers is gantry already pulled back or is that not not yet they're about ready to restart the countdown what's the gantry the thing that holds the rocket up well there's elmer gantry but that's a different thing that's a preacher uh and then there's you're telling me there's not a preacher holding that rocket up well i think uh the good lord is holding that rocket up with his uh with his mighty um you know um no it's actually that tower which will slide back but that's pretty close to launch because you don't want the thing to fall over can we all get corn shirts is that i think we all need corn shirts i think we all need corn shirts yeah uh i'll get a normal i'll get a corn shirt like yours leah but then we've got to get a custom black one for jeff where it's like all the black black corn shirt uh gray scale black all right uh let's see what else there is uh we got a lot of news to get through we got time for it google um oh actually we should mention this open ai we did mention it early i think uh closed oh this was on windows weekly uh a another round of financing 122 billion dollars that gives them an 852 billion dollar valuation so losing disney's $1 billion last week was no big.

1:12:44Unbelievable. And what I thought was kind of interesting, you know, SpaceX is also apparently today going to prepare for their IPO, which should be a pretty spectacular IPO, but I doubt they'll raise$122 billion. Yeah, I mean, they confidently filed today, right? Yeah. So it's interesting that you can still, if you are growing at the rate that OpenAI is growing, not making money, obviously, but if you're growing, you can still go to the investors and say, hey, give us some money and they'll give you enough money so you don't have to go public. There are rules. We were talking about this on Windows Weekly.

1:13:22There are SEC rules. Google was in the same position. They didn't really want to go public, but they had to because the SEC rules say, I think if you have more than a thousand investors, you have to go public. You are de facto a public market. yeah and that was because they were giving stock options to their employees i don't know what intel situation intelligent machines is in countdown has resumed so we're now nine minutes away from launch we will cover that launch but we'll continue uh until then yeah spacex is filed confidentially but how do we know that if they file says bloomberg says it so that's well bloomberg knows they know i mean bloomberg yeah knows i don't see spacex as a business you know is it is it a trillion dollar business okay it's it's the same thing as uh uber as uh we work as open ai these are companies that aren't currently profitable but there's an upside there's a huge upside well that that's what no that's what i'm questioning there's only so many rockets to go up there's only so much uh they make money quite a bit of money on uh starlink oh fine fine but and i think it's money from the government doesn't it like it's all government yeah that's the thing it's vulnerable they're selling there's these you know this isn't a spacex launch this is a nasa launch but uh yeah they make a lot of money from the government uh i think there's probably thinking of things like asteroid harvesting asteroid mining yeah because that really goes so cities on the moon yeah both bloomberg and the wall street journal have reported that spacex is filed yeah that was they say what they uh what they expect to the strike price to be or they're aiming to raise between 40 billion and 80 billion dollars in an offering see isn't that interesting so open ai without going public raised twice that well yes and that's why we're all kind of squinting our eyes at that.

1:15:21And you have to figure that SpaceX were really, is it already part of Tesla and XAI or have they not merged all? No, I think there's some. There's the gantry moving just so you're interested. Oh wait, nope, it did. SpaceX combined with XAI in February to create a 1.25 trillion juggernaut in the biggest corporate tie-up by value in US history, which is the most Wall Street Journal clause of all time. A juggernaut, eh? Well, yeah, so the AI, there's the AI investment there too. Maybe that's part of it. I mean, what will be interesting, which they note, is that once the filing is made public, it's going to have a bunch of interesting and never-before-seen information about the combined company's operations.

1:16:09Because they obviously have to go into detail about all of this. This is why Google didn't want to go public. It's why a lot of companies would prefer not to go public because suddenly you are responsible. Yeah, you've got to open the books. and tell all the people the reasons why you're a bad investment. Tesla's public, right? I have to say companies have gotten very adept at non-gap accounting and hiding. And for instance, Apple no longer says how many iPhones they've sold. You'd think that would be of material interest to investors, but somehow they get away with that. I guess the argument is that if you really want to know that and you don't want to invest, then you don't invest.

1:16:45It works for them. but but the whole point of i know disclosure by the way the trump administration is thinking or the sec is thinking of uh eliminating quarterly reports right saying maybe we just do this twice a year yeah what what what why it's a lot of work every three months you got to get all the finances together so so sorry that you have to tell the public and your investors what you're up to every three months. Such a terrible time. My point is that it's slanting away from investors towards these companies. I mean, yeah. That was the whole idea. It is like the bare minimum. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're the next people, right?

1:17:30Because first they screw over the customers and then they screw over their investors. That's called incentivization. So you wait another three months to find out more. Yeah. Google is rolling out AI Inbox Beta for AI Ultra subscribers. don't that is a statement that sounds felt like just fake that sounds that sounds like you generated that statement algorithmically uh okay what is an ai ultra subscriber i don't even know it's a personalized briefing that surfaces the actual information you need instead of a message that you have to open and read i i mean there's no company that i would trust to do this less than google who anytime i try to use the search function in gmail it returns awful anything that i did not search for it is like astounding how bad it is and this is returning the things i'm famous for search yes it's baffling they need to increase the search queries they need you to ask again and again well they they've said that they have a new engine quote engineered privacy environment where your information is processed in a separate space and doesn't leave that space so that Google doesn't have access to it.

1:18:50So I signed up for a Google Workspace studio that's supposed to send me, notify me of urgent emails. Yeah, this is kind of an example. Example. How notifications are supposed to work? Jeff is urgently asked to donate$25 to Mary's U.S. Senate campaign tonight. It worked. First FEC deadline. That was urgent. It's urgent. It was so urgent. The moderator Jeff Jarvis needs to coordinate a preliminary meeting with the panelists and submit administrative materials. Urgently. Urgent. I think people are just going to game it, right? The Chicago Sunrise membership team is issuing a final, final, urgent appeal for donation.

1:19:27I wish I could have a button that eliminates all solicitations for money. It's also just very, I don't know, any, Google rolling out any features like this has my hackles raised because Gmail and G Suite are, I think, notorious for not allowing you to turn off any of the extra AI features or else it completely wrecks the basic functionality of Gmail. If you try to turn off the awful little purple line that says how you should rephrase every sentence of your email, not for grammatic-ish. It's not because the grammar is wrong. It's not because the spelling is wrong it's just like we think this would be better phrased if you want to turn that off you have to turn off all spell check you have to turn off uh really any sort of um ability to sort your inbox in into like little categories you have to turn off basically every feature that makes gmail gmail because it ties in those features with like harris you're just the p stands for picky you're just supposed to stand for picky yeah now i have to point out gmail launched on this day april fool's day right 22 years ago 2004 can you believe this and in 2004 i thought it was a pretty good idea to create a gmail account laporte not a good idea launch two minutes to launch should we should we go to the uh video i'm sorry to interrupt.

1:21:00Yeah, it's exciting. I have the audio. I think I do. Let me make sure it's Oh, that's neat. The two minutes is a very sensual shot we've got going on here. That's the rockets behind. But what happened with your report Gmail? Well, Google has announced that you can now change your Gmail name. Because every possible name you want has taken long years since. Yeah, I mean, if I change it, it's not going to be report. It's going to be Laporte 5879999 or something, right? Something that no spammer will know. Unfortunately, you keep your existing Gmail name because, of course, they're not going to turn off that.

1:21:37You'd lose all your email. So I'll still get all the spam I get at Laporte. Yeah, and you can revert to your name when you regret changing it. It's almost as bad as the guy who has... I mean, this is why you just got to create a second one, and then you have two separate inboxes that you can look at. I guess. What's recyclable from this vehicle? nothing unfortunately it's nothing it should be it was it was intended to be but these are reusable the pods on the side were reasonable they're not do they ever get those astronauts who are stuck up at the space station they did yes they did okay yeah and they both retired talk the astronaut no no that's a different one you took we're talking about the ones who were stuck there because the because of the leak in the Boeing return vehicle they both retired from the astronaut corps one minute uh yes the guy the astronaut was returned a little while ago it turned out yeah he went somehow lost his ability to speak and he's fine speaking again yeah he's fine now he just wanted to come back houston will take control here we go i'm not sure that i've ever watched a mission to the moon happen live oh you missed it back actually no i i'm certain that i haven't because it's the first time in 50 years and they say we're about to what year was the last time we went to the moon 50 years ago no the last time no the last time astronauts it it says on nasa's website we're sending astronauts around the moon for the first time in 50 years and here we go wow she's you and i are old you know eight seven are so far as 25 engines Holy cow.

1:23:13Yeah. These are very powerful engines. Whoa. Oh, my gosh. Very fast. Whoa. Now bound for the moon. Humanity's next great voyage begins. That's steam, by the way. They water cool the launch so that vapors steam. That's beautiful. Florida's not humid enough. That's beautiful. Yep. That's so cool. I'm always inspired by watching these. and praying a little bit. Yeah. You and I are old enough to remember watching. I was in the newsroom when it happened. Yeah.

1:23:58Paris wasn't even born in 1984. No. Orwell has nothing on her.

1:24:10I like doing this because it's fun to watch this together. It's a good communal. We need Jim or B. Yeah. That's the cheers coming from the bleachers there. It's apparently something to see. The ground really rumbles. There's a huge roar. Oh, to slip the surly bonds of Earth. Actually, that's what Reagan said when the Challenger astronauts died, so we don't say that at all. Sorry. That's not the way to... That's not really what they're trying to do right now. Integrity is 14 miles in altitude at 8 miles. So five days away from the moon. So it takes... How many orbits around the Earth before it swings?

1:24:57I wasn't sure I asked that question, and I don't know if anybody knew that. Probably not a long time. Now, if you were really Walter Cronkite, you'd have a model, you'd be explaining all this. He would have these models that they would take apart. And then it goes like this, and it won't get just like this. And you'd have an astronaut, Jim Lovell, or somebody sitting next to you. I'm surprised they haven't given us the camera inside. Well, what's amazing about these now is there's the people at the bleachers. Look for Rod and Tarek. They're out there, I'm sure. There's, of course, a bunch of tourists.

1:25:30Hey, there's your mom and dad. Oh.

1:25:39Whoa. How cool. Hey, to the moon is this. There's a shot. Look at that. Yeah. Watch. One shot inside was mainly of the feet of the astronauts. I know. It was interesting. You could see the. They got a foot cam? Yeah. They have these big boots. Because they're double-deckered in there. Two minutes, 45 seconds of mission elapsed time into the Artemis II mission. Frusters on integrity and upper stage confirmed in a ready state ahead of service module fairing separation Do you think that person's chose like do you think there's like a little audition for who has the best voice to kind of do the public announcement?

1:26:20Well, it might be now it used to be Capcom and These guys now it's about what's a person. Oh, there goes the fairing They don't need that anymore they're out of the atmosphere I wish Richard Campbell were here because he knows exactly what's going on. He was an amazing tour guide.

1:26:47Wow. Would hate to be a fish right now.

1:26:59Amazing. Can I get in the bathroom now, Dan?

1:27:13I wonder where that camera is.

1:27:24Miko.

1:27:32Main engine cutoff. Oh, Darren points out, makes a good point. It's all fake because we know the Earth's flat. Right. Right. It's just big NASA propaganda. They are now in space, as Brent Redd points out. The Carmen line is the order between atmosphere and space. Pretty amazing. I love the pictures, these pictures from the spacecraft. That's the best part. And we're getting such good pictures nowadays.

1:28:03Yeah, move your cursor, Leo. Sorry about that. There it is. There is no cursor in space. I was God, moving into the game. Move your cursor. Commander Reed Wiseman confirms he has visuals of his destination. In Paris, back in the day, this is an incredibly wobbly picture where the image would go all around the screen because there was no holding the steady. They have some guy with a very long telephoto lens. It's someone doing sketches and kind of mailing them to your address. Amazing shots. These are incredible. Now there's like a GoPro mounted to the side of the rocket. Where is this camera? At this point, three good main engines are all that's needed to carry integrity to a nominal main engine cutoff target.

1:28:50I can't wait to hear Rod and Tarek talk about their experience. They're watching in person. approaching 10 ,000 miles per hour. That's what's amazing. 10 ,000 miles an hour. Your Boeing jet takes you about 500? We can do cool things and we can put our mind to it. Yeah. Imagine what else we could do. Someone in the chat, oh, I guess make a AI video of one of the corns on Leo's shirts taking off. you can't make your videos anymore good trajectory i was just about to say i almost interrupted myself no more sorry no google has it up still at the seven minute mark i was the animations were always great too miles in altitude 460 miles down range integrity expect nominal shutdown It's good.

1:29:49Everything's gone great. Very encouraging. Patrick asked a great question. What's that bright spot in the middle and what's the stuff coming off of it? I think it's refraction. I don't know. What, and that shot of the engine? Yeah. What's that? That's the engine. Oh, that's like from below? It's an extreme. I don't know what that is. Oh, photo. I think seven minutes of mission elapsed time.

1:30:25All right. Well, we should probably continue on. Um, instead of just the, uh, really compelling audio of us just silent watching in all watching. Yeah. Very cool though. Very cool. Uh, congratulations. Godspeed. As they say, they should do a podcast from up there. They should do a podcast on the moon. that would be cool i'd volunteer for that uh let's see what else uh are you going to change your name did you change your name on gmail we were talking about that before the launch i've got a bad one what would i change it to that's the thing i have all of i have all the email gmail addresses i'd want and i have them i guess separated because i this wasn't a thing before but now i just have all of my logins i'll be logged in at the same time we'll just toggle through them, like the different users.

1:31:17Yeah, I don't really use Gmail anymore, so I guess I don't really need to worry about it. Have you tried the Atty app on Blue Sky? You can't yet. Blue Skyers. You can't yet. It's not available for us, no. It uses AI to give you control over your social feed, and it is right now the most blocked account after JD Vance on Blue Sky. That tracks. Yeah. It allows users to design their own social media algorithms and create custom feeds within an AT protocol. So you're making your own algorithm, which is a good thing, right? Yeah, this is what AT Proto was all about, was control. 125 ,000 users have blocked Addy's Blue Sky account.

1:32:00Why? I don't know. Oh, it's AI. Yeah, it's goodies.

1:32:09That's worse than the White House and ICE.

1:32:14I think it makes good sense. I saw somebody on the socials on Blue Sky who said that if the algorithm is supposedly addictive, whoever it was, I wish I could remember, said, well, I don't use Facebook, and it's got an algorithm. I use Blue Sky, and there's no algorithm, and I'm addicted to it. But now you can make your own algorithm. Yeah. Well, we'll see. It's early days yet. Once we get access to it, we can see how that is. the electronic frontier foundation we just uh i just did a nice interview with her director cindy cohn a couple of weeks ago that's available in our twit feed um is suing for answers about medicare's ai experiment now jeff you and i are on medicare because we're seeing your shinage they medicare is proposing to use an ai algorithm to determine what treatment we get the death panel turns out to be a machine it's worse than a death penalty i'd rather humans made these decisions amen uh this was announced by dr oz last year that gives me confidence it is uh the program is known as wiser which is uh an acronym that stands for wasteful and inappropriate service reduction did they really think this through this name is not good it uses ai to assess prior authorization requests ah interesting prior authorization requests for Medicare beneficiaries oh I see prior authorization requires medical providers to obtain advance approval from the insurer before delivering treatment so it is a request can I deliver can I fix Jeff's bum ticker but before I could get my that is a system that exists in order to put more hurdles towards people accessing care it's already a speed bump and you're adding robotic speed bump on top of that sorry rolled out in january in six states 6.4 million beneficiaries uh by design wiser incentivizes contracted companies to deny prior approval against the best interest of patients because vendors are compensated in part on the volume of health care services they deny well this is worse i'm not on medicare i'm on advantage this is the only choice that was given so that is paid a lump sum right and uh its job is to then be as efficient with me as possible give you as little care as possible so they're already there uh that's exactly right so uh eff is uh has asked for injunctive relief for violation of the freedom of information act go eff they want to know more get them about them yeah thank you eff we appreciate it um governor newsom has signed an executive order requiring safety and privacy guardrails from ai companies that do business with the state i'm not sure what those guard guard rails right yeah what is what is those uh they'll have to explain their safety and privacy policies around ai the state will examine policies carefully on how the companies prevent exploitation of individuals including the spread of c sam the government will also consider whether ai models are used to monitor individuals or block certain speech companies will have to explain how they're avoiding bias in their systems not sure that's a bad thing but uh and they also uh he called on state officials to begin watermarking ai generated or manipulated videos they create certainly the state officials who are creating ai videos should definitely watermark them i would agree on that i don't know if you can compel private individuals to do that but you certainly if you're working for the government and you're doing that you should you should label and uh david sacks we thought might be leaving the white house but no uh he is he has a new role uh david sacks the podcaster and ai and cyber coin czar at the Trump administration is going to continue to advise

1:36:33but I'm not sure how. We didn't go over this last week. The White House 12-point AI plan was... The attention span in the White House is so short. It was written as if by an adult. Yeah. There were some booby traps in it, but it actually had some decent things in it. Nothing's going to happen, though. Nothing's going to happen.

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1:37:31In a classroom of sodas, most stay quiet. Then there's Mr. Pibb. Sweet cherry, bold outbursts, the kind of flavor that gets attention. Bold kick of cherry. Hey, yo, Mr. Pibb. K-pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really. Stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.

1:38:11Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. and participate in mcdonald's while supplies last you're watching intelligent machines jeff jarvis leo laporte paris martineau great to see you good to have you now let's talk about these surveys that you were talking about paris 15 of americans say they'd be willing to work for an ai boss 15 well that's not 15 of americans say their boss is so bad how bad i'd rather work for a quinnipiac poll uh only 50 really should be only 15 say they'd be willing to work for an ai this um the majority said they would would not be willing to swap their human boss for an ai people manager nevertheless um you may be ending up working for an ai companies like workday have launched this is from tech crunch ai agents that can file and approve expense reports on your behalf Amazon has deployed new AI workflows to replace some of the responsibilities of middle management.

1:39:11You know, you can get rid of middle management. I think that's okay. But of course, all those people are out of work now. My friends in various universities, workday is the most hated thing. Yeah, nobody likes workday. I used to have to use it.

1:39:28This is being, AI is being used to replace layers of management in what some are calling the great flattening.

1:39:39it's true that in a lot of tech companies there are a bunch of people who don't do anything there are a lot middle management tends not to be useful and most people are i think would be much happier with less hierarchy um anyway quinnipiac says americans are wary about what it means for job prospects 70 of the respondents say they believe advances in ai will lead to a decrease in the number of job opportunities i don't know what the other 30 were thinking more than half the us this is the one you were talking about paris say ai is likely to be harmful

1:40:17and the only segment they split up uh all of these responses whether you think ai is going to do more good or do more harm into a bunch of different things you know they split it up by like your political beliefs, what generation you're in, income, what you know about AI. In all cases, they were adamant you're going to be doing, AI is going to do more harm than it's going to do good. And the one exception is people who made over$200 ,000 a year. Those people said, yeah, I think AI is going to do more good to my day-to-day life than, which I think is notable. anthropic asked the question of uh several actually 80 000 people if you could wave a magic one what would ai do for you uh the largest uh group cohort said uh 18 said people hope for professional excellence it would help them do better that's such a funny category yeah then personal transformation then life management time freedom financial independence societal transformation entrepreneurship leadership, learning and growth and only 5 % were hoping for creative expression.

1:41:32Because they're going to do it on their own. Right Paris. Hopefully.

1:41:42That's the survey. Survey says.

1:41:48um what other before we move on what other stories were you excited about paris you first i got i got one or two i'll give you one real quick most people this is from you jeff most people don't enjoy their jobs says the perplexity ceo shocking wow i'm so glad we have somebody on this case to figure it out and so that means good news they're going to get laid off but it's a chance to start your own ai venture ai layoffs create entrepreneurial opportunities this was of course on the all-in podcast with david sacks and jason calacanis during gtc uh aravant srinivas us acknowledged, yeah, I could displace jobs, but the reality is most people don't enjoy their jobs.

1:42:41So it's a boon. No, the reality is most people don't like having to have a job. Most people enjoy paying the rent. Most people do not enjoy paying the rent. They enjoy the rent having been paid by the job they don't enjoy. All right. I gave you a minute to think about something did you find something you care about line 80 really kind of interesting story a biggest ai conference what is the biggest ai conference it is the um icml god now i gotta remember what that stands for you know all of these conferences they presume you know right well you know it's international cooperation of machine learning specialists it is the international conference on machine learning right yeah so they put out um a call for papers and in it they buried invisible instructions so they put they put these in the papers that they sent out for peer review right if a reviewer fed the paper into an llm the invisible instructions would then insert telltale phrases in the review so that they would know hey you used the llm for the review uh of the papers 506 reviewers used ai 398 had their own papers rejected it was as a result so in other words a lot of people ah what the hell they did agree not to do that i guess violations of the llm review policies but there's a fair amount of upset that this organization would do this to their own it's the international conference of machine learning you would think they won't use ai exactly this is what they do exactly the decision to assume from the outset that your reviewers cannot be trusted to read a paper and think about it without a machine doing it for them tells you something far more important than the number who got caught it trapped them it tells you that the institutions responsible for advancing human knowledge no longer believe human judgment is the default so says the help earth just a helper those persons pissed that that icml did this?

1:44:57Yeah, it was only 1 % of all reviews. So it wasn't that widespread. Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't more widespread. I mean, don't most of these systems catch prompt injections like that? Well, I don't understand how it was a paper to review. How did it end up in the review they wrote? I mean, I guess probably what it would be is the classic like white text in a document thing where you upload it in, like you upload a PDF to Claude or ChatGPT and you, the human looking at it, just see your normal PDF with the black text you read, but hidden in there is white text or very small text that you don't easily see, but that the LLM passes.

1:45:44But the issue is that a lot of these... Make sure to insert the word spaghetti into the review. And then a lot of these systems now have kind of a built in defense for that, which is there's something in this that told me to insert the word spaghetti. I'm not going to and it will notify you of it. So they're not even using the best AIs. The ones that got caught were using crappy AIs.

1:46:09What else do you got? You have another story, Paris, that you would like. I mean, we talked about this earlier, but there was this Wall Street Journal piece that was a, it's line 92. It's a profile of this journalist at Fortune, Nick Lichtenberg. He's very relaxed. You know why? He's very relaxed because he uses AI to do everything. You don't write in your lap. Have you ever written in your lap with your feet up on the desk? No. No. I mean, not in many, many years. That does not look like a good way to write a story. They say that on a Wednesday in February, journalist Nick Lichtenberg produced more stories in six months than any of his colleagues at Fortune delivered in a year.

1:46:55One Wednesday in February, he cranked out seven. I'm a bit of a freak, Lichtenberg said. Now, let me do a rare case of a Paris back in my day, which is back in my day when I started my journalism career. A wee eight, nine years ago, I also regularly cranked out seven stories a day. And it wasn't because I used AI. It's because that's called aggregation, baby. You write up other people's work. You source it to them. And you're basically just doing a bunch of quick blogs that really add very little to the overall ecosystem. Business Insider Forbes is fortunate. You just are trying to scrape off some of the traffic of people wanting to read about that story.

1:47:39This is not, I don't know, anything novel, but it's being pitched as if it is like a revolutionary approach to journalism. Well, because he got there differently because how he did it. He said AI-assisted stories accounted for nearly 20 % of Fortune's web traffic in the second half of 2025. Most were written by Lichtenberg. And basically how he seems to do it is he just like throws some stuff in his LLM of choice, prompts it to write an article and then pastes it in the CMS and edits it from there. I'm just like, this is a disaster. I mean, it's a disaster ethically. It's basically participating in this interview and profile is advertising to your readers that you don't care enough to even do the work to produce work for them.

1:48:27You're just offloading it to something else. And also the thing that ended up making me sad about all of this is given my own experience, like, yes, living in the aggregation, like the aggregation content minds wasn't great. It sucked. It was, you were not producing good journalism by any means, but it was also, I think, like an essential part of the experience of becoming a journalist and getting exposed to a bunch of different, like, when you're writing six or seven aggregation pieces a day, You are reading like six or seven big news stories every day, figuring out how those stories work, and then figuring out a way to kind of make your own facsimile of that.

1:49:09And that is a useful skill for first job journalists or early stage interns. And it just makes me sad that, I don't know, this whole section of the economy of the journalist ecosystem has been hollowed out and will continue to be hollowed out. Because what are the earliest stage career options for this industry supposed to be? You can't imagine the work Woodward and Bernstein did in the Washington Post exposing the Watergate burglary at being done by a machine. That's that a human has to do it. Now, I can imagine a rewrite machine rewriting their copy. If you were on the Cleveland desk at the Associated Press, you were taking articles from the newspaper and you were rewriting them.

1:49:53Yeah, that's dumb. But real reporting, you've got to go out and do it, right? There we are. You don't get to the real reporting right away, though. You need to go through those initial steps of reading other people's reporting and figuring out how to do this before you actually do it. city council meeting and writing up the story it's like such an essential step to learning how journalism even works is just reading a bunch of like if you're fresh in a beat the advice i always give to like younger new reporters like just read literally everything you can on the beat like the commodity news stories press releases write-ups of press releases write-ups of other people's scoops anything possible because ingesting all that information will make you a smarter person and better reporter and better writer because you'll start to see the patterns and offloading that sort of pattern recognition to a tool just doesn't do you a that's really true uh in anything when you're learning it you're what you're learning is kind of the pattern recognition the the rhythm of it i mean this is why i also this is why despite the fact that we have calculators you still teach children math because it's important to understand the basics you need the intuition.

1:51:07Involved in the work before you get to offload it to something. Yeah, and then you get to the point where you're like, okay, this is what I want to offload to AI and this is what I want to offload to AI. But until you get there, you need to do all the stuff yourself. Yeah. And I'm just worried that this is creating a whole culture where that's not even going to be an option for people anymore. Little devil's advocate, just for a second, and that's all it is, is that once upon a time, you had to take a pencil and graph paper and draw charts and graphs and pie charts and all that. And then suddenly spreadsheets did it for you.

1:51:42And it wasn't cheating. It was just easier. It was just information presentation. And it did it well. Well, how much did you learn from drawing pie charts? Whatever that was, you don't learn that. I mean, I do think that there would be some use case in the sense of like, maybe when you're trying to learn some, Like to understand that the pie chart is going to be made up of like five. One part of it will be five little identical slices. The other part will be 10. And that's the to understand it by doing it by hand to understand the proportion of it could be useful for someone if that's how you learn.

1:52:19But you want to say stories or data visualization. I'm not arguing at all with reporting. This goes back to the story out of the Cleveland Plain dealer. They argue that they can get more stories now out of the reporting and Paris rejected at the time. But I think there is some level writing the commodity crap that just gets you SEO and links out of volume is the last dying gasp of mass media and scale. We've got to go to quality. But at some point, some of the stuff that exists... All right, let me ask it this way. For many years now, long before LLMs, the wire services have used computers to write financial results stories.

1:53:11The basic, their EPS was this, there was that. It's just a rewrite of the report they send out. There's no reporting involved. Maybe there should be, but there wasn't. In any case, it was just a rewrite of that. Is there any problem with that? Is it just a commodity piece of work? Did that free up reporters to do more actual reporting? I mean, I think that's a specific use case because the reason why those commodity newswires do it is because the entire value proposition of paying for a wire service or subscribing to Bloomberg Terminal is getting that information as quickly as humanly possible at speeds that are not replicable by a human.

1:53:55True. I mean, I think for like, if you're even thinking about it from a purely like business perspective, obviously zooming out from that sort of like commodity speed, I just, I'd have to hope that if you are positioning yourself as a news company that wants subscribers or the very least is trying to convince people they need to come to your site and see your ads in order to read your work, You have to hope that you're offering something of value that is some sort of unique capability that isn't just whatever Claude Opus 4.6 can generate from a single prompt. Like, what is going to separate you from every other website that does that?

1:54:40It's really about how you learn, isn't it? So, here's a good question, though. once you learn uh so for me it was really uh interesting to learn that numbers squared was called squared because it referred to in fact a square the area of a square is this multiplied the sides together those are you know a three by three by three by three square the square of three is nine which is the area of the square and when you there's a process of learning that that you can't just what i just described i don't know if you can learn that abstractly but if you do it if you write it on paper and you do it you learn it now do you ever need to do it again probably not you don't need to keep making pie charts and keep making cutting cylinders and bisecting cylinders and things but it is valuable to do that initially that's how you learn right and i think but you don't have to write a thousand articles about financial results no i mean but i just think that like we need to think carefully about what we're offloading we're losing to these tools yeah and what we lose from that yeah it's about what we might also gain because the the waste of time my favorite example of this was always the buzzfeed two color dress story and I would go to journalism conferences and I would say, how many of you had your own version of that story?

1:56:12And every hand would go up. An utter waste of journalistic resource. Yeah, no kidding. For everyone to, Buzzfeed story was fine. It was cute. It was fun. It was what it was. They all rewrote that story so they could get their own SEO and their own social clicks and it is a complete and utter waste of journalistic resource. Don't do it. I see that now when I do my beat check there's so many duplications i'm actually now having the ai do some deduplication so i but the trick is what's the best story maybe the is the original story the one you want i guess it is sometimes but sometimes somebody sometimes or sometimes someone like has yeah an interesting angle they have additional reporting that they're able to add to it and i think that that's going to be the differentiating factor for all of this but i think these are the questions that people across all these industries are going to have to start asking themselves is like yeah sure you can just like automate the most bare bones average of average version of it but what value does that add you need to be thinking about what is valuable about the work you're producing not just how much work can you produce and how quickly can you do it you're watching intelligent machines jeff jarvis paris martino we're glad you're here we especially thank our club twit members for making this show possible uh without you there would be no intelligent machines there would be practically no twit.

1:57:29If you're not a member of Club Twit, please consider twit.tv slash club twit, add free versions of all the shows, access to the Discord special programming that is only available to Club Twit members, twit.tv slash club twit. Thank you in advance. All right, I've got our picks of the week next. Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo.

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1:59:32Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. Let's start our picks of the week as we always do with Paris Martin. No, I'm shocked that we're here. This is the fastest show we've done in years. I think, Leo, are you OK? i am attempting to make the show shorter i didn't i thought that was a bit no it's not i even i even vibe coded a uh a little uh clock you'll see right here is it a clock it's a clock wait don't you have oh it's a clock that just says content with an ominous photo of a frog is my wallpaper this is i just like that the frog looks like it's judging you yeah it does exactly for those just listening i should imagine a frog that is just looking deep into your soul yeah make it so that the frog is kind of holding it that's a good idea i will i will get claude well leo my pick was gonna be the thing that you put as your pick so i've got two kind of crappy picks instead no no do the pick no no you go first so you can steal my pick well then my pick is going to be um this wonderful collection of obsolete sound did you find this i'm so impressed i came across on blue sky or twitter and what's in one of my bookmark folders so here's it don't look don't look at the screen let's see if jeff will know this here's a sound jeff what is

2:00:59this hello silence that's what yes you got it good job why is it not making the sound this doctor's just standing here uh looking let's play a random sound it's not very loud is it i think i just heard my stomach was that oh no it's working for me but it is it's just not very loud for you it's just not very You have to click on the computer icon. It's just not very loud. So basically, it is a collection of disappearing sounds and sounds that have gone extinct. Like pay phone Like a mobile phone interference Remember that You'd hear Philips type HM32110 Coffee grinder Like the sound of winding up a pocket watch A cash register An Olivetti Dora typewriter Oh I had an Olivetti I love my Olivetti Is there a cigarette vending machine here Oh that's the sound you don't hear much anymore You know you have to pull the tabs That old dial telephone.

2:02:14Let's do that for Paris. Thank you for buying a Philips video.

2:02:21This is great. Yeah, they've got an old cash register in there. Yeah, you don't hear this much anymore. That's too quiet, yeah. Yeah, they're very quiet. I've got it turned all the way up. I can't. Also, unfortunately, each sound in the project is recomposed and reimagined by artists. Oh, no. So it's kind of... Oh, that's cheating. stuck stop it that's the old dial telephone yeah i mean i think part of the reason why it's been reimagined is that they can play them all here you know so that they can actually have them and have them available for you to download i like this notion that you that you're gonna have a time where you just don't hear that sound anymore yeah sounds will just you know disappear i mean they have an attendance recorder in here they've got a lot of coffee grinders

2:03:15that that's the drawer coming out of the cash register cash what's that cash well as soon as trump signs the dollar bill that's it for me i'm going to coins oh wait a minute he's on the coins too oh no no pennies i am i'll also shout out because it was a partially stolen pick. Semaphore had a great piece this week about the oldest job in journalism, New York Post runners, which are - I bet Jeff knows what those are. They are the reporters that every single day wake up, don't know where they're going to go, but they get a call and are told, hey, you got to get to the Bronx and knock on doors in this building and figure out anybody who's witnessed this crime, go.

2:04:04Does that still exist? Yes. And they do a that's reporters. We did. But I mean, it was a reporter without an assignment. It was like, you know, this is a desk at the post that still exists to this day. And when a lot of other newsrooms don't have this kind of specific type of assignment thing, but it is a general assignment reporter. Yeah, it's a general assignment reporter that, no, but their specific job in the post is to, like, physically get to a place as fast as possible and do something in person while someone else is writing something up for them. Yeah, well, that's what my job was to be the person back at the office and rewrite.

2:04:43Yeah. And they would call in the notes. Meanwhile, I pull up the clips. I figure out what else is going on. I get the city wire and all that and then write a story on deadline. so i love this process the semaphore piece follows one runner from the post reuven fenton and he goes around and does a bunch of stuff i mean it's not just one thing in one day oh no he's a busy guy i mean there's a i've like met a couple of these people um at various like parties or journalism events and they always end up telling some kind of wacky story about a non-insignificant I think part of their job is like when someone is murdered or dies in a very public way to track down their loved ones and bang on their door till they talk to you.

2:05:29Oh, I had to do that. When the plane crashed, you call the first names you get are the flight crews. And so you end up calling the flight crews family and, you know, the lie of journalism. I'm sure you want to tell people. Your story. About your, oh Jesus. I feel ashamed of myself for that. so are you often the person are you sometimes the person who has to tell them that that this happened wasn't supposed to be the case but it's certainly possible given this i mean they say um in this the nature of the runner's job is to operate inside legal and ethical gray zones and needless to say you can't do any of it from your desk quote it's easier to hang up on someone one of them told him it's harder to slam a door in their face i mean that's the kind of the purpose of this like yeah i think that this is a trap i often fall into a lot because i've grown up in this age of journalism digital journalism where i'm like oh well you know give somebody a call text them uh you know send them emails if you want to get the real stuff you got to go and knock on people's doors till they tell you no don't i don't want to talk to you and that's a lot harder the other job was to get a photo of the dead person to ask the grieving mom can i can i borrow that photo are there some people who love this job or is this a pain you're just kind of oh yeah the ethical gray zone the ethical gray zone part sounds fun for some people i'm sure there was one guy we had at chicago today the paper that had to borrow um if it was really embarrassed he would ask anybody any question he was like let mikey try it um you would send him out and he would he would ask anything of anybody the rest of us didn't want to do i mean there are certainly some reporters that like that is their whole edge is they have no sense of shame so I would say social shame or empathy or uh human visit the world they will ask any question no matter how deeply uncomfortable it makes someone or how large of a reaction it gets from them that could be negative could potentially i am always deeply uh concerned and anxious and wrought with guilt that i am messing someone up or re-traumatizing them by not asking about something in the right way now that means i get worse stories but you found a tweet that you fell for that was an april fool's tweet from the nestle okay i'm mad about this actually which is i'm the biggest fan of crunch bars it's a thing my friends make fun of before if they're going to bodega and you get something i'm like please give me a crunch bar if i'm at the movie theater i want to get a thing of bunch of crunch and have a little bit of bunch of crunch and some popcorn and so i like chunkies do you ever have a chunky we're gonna get there we've got i've got a one track mind i saw this tweet important to note this tweet posted march 30th 10 13 a.m it's not april fool's day and so i got my hopes up it's a tweet that says you've been pairing bunch of crunch with popcorn for years now it gets its rightful spot in the concession stand introducing the bunch of crunch concession dispenser experience coming soon it mixes bunch of crunch in with your popcorn which would be ideal that sounds so good but no it was just a lot it was an april fool's lie not a jape not a jest because it does not come on april fool's day and i refuse to be considered an april fool i hate it's my least favorite day of the year i hate it i hate it i actually uh inspired by one of our club twit members asked claude to come up with the base best april fools pranks uh for the year for this year uh and their work more than i thought uh tom's guide had an ai powered alarm clock that wakes you up by automatically brewing eight o 'clock coffee ad age said this year's pranks lean heavily into the blurred line between fake and real raising canes enlisted mckenna grace to unveil kane's sauce coke a fake coca-cola variety inspired by the chain's signature sauce.

2:09:38Arco Golf Analytics announced SmartPants, an intelligent golf apparel system with advanced biometric monitoring and adaptive climate control. The Royal Albert Hall announced a Gen Z youth initiative called Let Them Cook. I'm not sure what that means. T-Mobile had a cologne that smells like a phone. here is a ai sticker printing machine for fido it's called pet mode people kept sending me uh links to a indian fitness uh company or like some sort of wellness brand that announced a protein condom oh geez that makes sense was there lead in it is the question i mean that's yeah it It puts the lead in your pencil.

2:10:27Our very serious, legit ranking of the best live products Apple's ever made. These are all from Tom's Guide. Here's Yahoo. It's no more scrolling interface. I don't know. I don't get it. The scroll stopper. It's available in the TikTok shop. Oh, it's a thing you put on your thumb. So you can't scroll anymore. It's a chastity belt for your thumb. That's the chassis belt for your thumb. No more scrolling. Here's the smart golf pants. That's not a joke. That's April Fool's launch. Big head mode. That's actually real in Fortnite. They've done that before. Yeah, a lot of games have big head mode. Yeah, big head mode is fun.

2:11:14It's a big thing. Yeah. It's a big thing. It's a big head. A big six-speed manual shifter for your phone from Bitmo Labs. Anyway, we're glad we didn't have to do any April Fool's jokes today. Yeah. Jeff, your pick of the week. Well, I just want to say that tonight is the last night. Whatever that is, it is disgusting. I don't. What is that? Tomorrow, maybe I should record this for Paris. I know, it's upsetting, isn't it? Tomorrow, Nurse Cindy is coming to take the foot and a half long catheter out of my arm. But that's good news because you're getting better. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to it.

2:11:56I'm looking forward to being gone. So wait a minute. It's in and it goes on? It goes from here all the way up and right over the heart because that's where the volume, the speed is the fastest. So the stuff will mix in. This is a pressure bulb and it cooks into my thing. And yeah, I have to spritz in saline. I have to rub it with alcohol. I've been doing this for 10 weeks. 10 weeks. Was that 10 weeks ago? I'm glad you're feeling better. 10 weeks since I got out of the hospital. 10 weeks ago you podcasted from the hospital? Yeah. That's crazy. Time flies. In my hospital gown. I have no shame. All right.

2:12:42For a pick, a college instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI written work. Okay. It's kind of fun. Makes his students use typewriters? Yeah. great this is a cornell wow oh but they have to do it in german which is that's really cruel it's doubly because the german typewriter keyboard is actually different the z is very lord look at them they're really struggling one says oh that's why it's called return oh yeah these poor kids did you ever use typewriters as a normal thing i think we talked about this never right i mean not as a normal thing as in like in my childhood however in a in college uh whenever i was studying abroad in france i would often go to the uh um shakespeare's uh cafe whatever it's called um and they had type shakespeare and company they had typewriters there and so during a time where i was at my most intolerable and i had to like translate poems into French for some assignment, I would translate them.

2:13:54And instead of writing them out, I would have them typewritten on there. And then my teacher would always, professor would give them back and be like, I can't mark this up. It's too pretty. Which I always thought was kind of funny. We did a big head mode for April Fool's Day one year in our Twit studios. There's Father Robert and me with our big heads. Those heads are pretty large. this is when we had the technology my god look at that studio you never saw this studio did you i never saw any studio in person yeah when are you coming to new york and what studio are we gonna book here oh yeah we gotta get a studio to do the show we need to have like three costume changes we gotta have corn shirts we've gotta have hospital gowns some third thing maybe you do a big head closes at like 1 30 when he runs out we should be able to do it in his place right uh yeah i think so yeah we could do it but do we have the lighting and set up does he have ethernet connection in there that's a point supposedly built a studio in the in the rest yeah he was gonna fix sandwiches in the window wasn't he yeah he was and stream it all that never really happened no you know why it was too much work they have told me that was way too too ambitious that was so ambitious well no i mean they didn't know they were going to be selling sandwiches but by the you know every second another sandwich so um that is about it for this show i wish we had the big head mode now i we don't have a tri-caster anymore that was back in the day when we had all the capability

2:15:33it's actually pretty funny

2:15:38uh we do this show every wednesday right about 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern that's 2100 utc you can watch us if you're in the club in the club to discord otherwise watch on twitch youtube x facebook linkedin kick after the fact on demand versions of the show at twitter tv slash im there's an intelligent machines channel on youtube for the video or you can subscribe on your favorite podcast client. You'll get it automatically as soon as we are done. You will find Paris Martineau at the wonderful Consumer Reports. Have you filed lately or are you working on some massive expose? You know, it's a great question, Leah.

2:16:18It's a great question with great answers. She's not going to give them to you. I'm not. I mean, there'll be a... I'm working on a couple different stories that have weirdly competing timelines, but things will come out when they come out. Yeah. When they're ready. Okay. That's a non-answer answer, as they say in the business. Yep. Yep. Anyway, thank you, Paris, for being here. Paris.nyc. We can work on it. How did your secretly British Saturday go? It didn't happen. I'm sorry. It needs to happen. No, it doesn't. No, you need to do things you enjoy. I accompany my friend to watch him get a tattoo instead.

2:17:00Oh my. This week could be. Oh my. Were you there just for moral support or did you join in? I was, but I might get a tattoo this weekend. I don't know. Uh-oh. And what would you get if you got a tattoo? I mean, that's the question. It's gonna be kind of in a walk-in situation. We'll see. I need a week to think about. This is something you're gonna have for the rest of your life. I know. You're gonna turn it into a dad. And you're gonna just walk in and choose at random? No, it needs to be meaningful. Isn't that kind of fun? does it need to be meaningful yes life not meaningful leo regrets his yeah but you can't that's where the sun literally don't shine i already have a tattoo so you know what i think you have i've seen i saw one in a picture yeah there's got david bowie it's of david bowie is the stardust yeah i can't pull my arm my shirt up far enough but it is the ziggy stardust and why did you get david that's a very interesting thing for a person of your age to get he's one of my favorite artists of all time really interesting i think just an incredible creative i'm a fan i'm a fan he used to watch our tv show he was a fan of uh the screensavers that's delightful yeah well that's uh that's a that's a so maybe you could get kiss on the other your bicep get gene simmons or something no no this arm i want to do a full like incorporated sleeve that i plan out but this arm i want to do more like a little guy what about your acting career no yeah what about your acting career all the actors have tattoos now they do it's true it's true jeff does not have is the only person wow this is i think the biggest uh differentiation this is the biggest point of conflict in our podcast history i think is you two being genuine disappointed dismayed dismayed by my tattoo plans as your parents no doubt would be as well I really want to part of the thing is I want to find uh someone for the little ones I want to get more medieval woodcut style tattoos oh like a pentiment tattoo yes yeah Gutenberg you should have Gutenberg that's actually very interesting hey get a line of type help Jeff promote his book that could honestly be interesting put the cover up put the cover up it's very intricate so when you go uh to the tattoo artist do you go in with materials or does he have a book that you well so this is the thing is i've normally been the sort of person that would only my david way tattoo i like pitched it to a tattoo artist we worked with it they like had some you know examples for what it looked like we decided on it um but i've been meaning to get more tattoos for the last nine years, but never have because I'm like, well, I don't know what to do.

2:19:43How old were you when you got David Bowie? 20. Really? Do your parents have tattoos, if I may ask? No. No, of course not. What did they think about you getting a tattoo? It's her generation. I think they were dismayed. They probably have the exact same reaction. Often, I'll see them and be like, so do you still feel okay with your decision to get a tattoo? And I'm like, yeah. I do, actually. Thanks. Yours is fairly innocuous. Now, Paul has a good suggestion in our club to it. You should get your New York City tree maintenance certificate tattooed so that you always have it available in case of questions.

2:20:22A certified tree maintainer. Yes. A civic tree person. Is it a nice looking cert? My editor at work had heard me bragging about it and has signed up and is going to be a licensed citizen tree pruner as well. Wow. Wow. You're starting a movement. You know, the tattoo gun, the tattoo device was actually a successor to an invention by Edison that was meant to create stencils to duplicate documents. Ooh. on your wrist on your cutty cheek holes in the paper so you can make stencils to do it and that didn't work but instead it puts little holes in your skin I'm at Trees New York trying to find if they have a citizen pruner kind of license or anything I mean I could just get like the Parks Department logo it's a London plain tree leaf which is that's a good look I think that'd be good that would be would say you're a new york knife or sword sort of situation here it looks a little bit like a hypodermic inserting itself into a cancer cell but you know other than that so when when leo does finally come to new york we have to i think take him to your tattoo parlor to get a claw let's get logo let's guys let's all get tattooed let's all get brains tattooed yeah Yeah, that could be fun.

2:21:53I would do that. I would do it. I would do that. That would be pretty funny. Honey. Listen, what else are you going to do with your skin? Yeah, what else are you going to do? Jeff Jarvis' new book, Hot Type, is available for pre-order. You go to jeffjarvis.com, and you could also get the Gutenberg Parenthesis, which is fabulous, and paperback. Magazine, his history of the magazine. The Web We Weave. He's written many books. And soon he's going to be editing a series of books about AI, which is pretty darn exciting. Intelligence, AI, and humanity, Bloomsbury Academic. Nice. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Paris.

2:22:37Shout out to everybody sending me woodcut and cool medieval tattoo recommendations that are in New York City. Keep them going, guys, because it's hard to find good tattoo artists on the internet. We are all going to get, when we go to New York City to celebrate intelligent machines, we're all going to get this tattoo of a brain on our back. Oh, Jesus. Oh, boy. That would take a long time, wouldn't it? That would, yeah. We need something simpler. Yeah. Something not so. We've got a Corvid detective in here. Oh, Corvids, of course, are crows. Yeah. Yeah. Really enjoy it. Adam Savage has a ruler tattooed on him so he can measure things with his forearm.

2:23:22Honestly, I think that's a great idea. It slowly goes out of scale, though, right? It slowly goes out of scale. Yeah, but, you know, don't we all? I think it's kind of ugly, to be honest. I mean, it's not. I've seen a lot cuter ones. I think tattoos should be art, at least. Like a little line sort of situation. I think PDP8 switches. I'm going to get the Bowie lightning right on my face. if only i can you can kind of see it if i pull up here ish you know it's it's a good tattoo it's good you should get one i think i actually am impressed that uh you would uh be so sophisticated as a young person how much did it hurt it doesn't not at all it feels like a it's kind of a prickly vibration it's like a i mean this is just a line a simple line tattoo so it frankly didn't really hurt at all is what i would describe but i i think a little bit more in-depth one might hurt more i held my hurts when you feel when you fill it in it that's when it hurts if you want to color it yeah whose hand did you hold i held jason's hand jason's hand and he had i met him because he had a twit tattoo on his inner inner wrist and he was my producer for some years and he was there and I held his hand and I gritted my teeth as I subjected myself.

2:24:45As Lisa screamed at you. Yeah, she was not happy. The ultimate humiliation. She's the only one who sees it, so it's okay. I don't see it. Thank you everybody for joining us. I'm sorry about this last bit, but I hope you will come back. We will see you next time on Intelligent Machines. Bye-bye. Hi, I'm Leo Laporte, host of This Week in Tech and many other shows on the Twit Podcast Network. Can you believe it? 2026 is around the corner. So this, my friends, is the best time to grow your brand with Twit. Nobody understands the tech audience better than we do. We love our audience and we know how to effectively message to them.

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