IM 866: I'm Bonkers for Yonkers - Is Coding Dead?

31:58Okay. And the other 50 % cannot stop using it and keep telling the other half, what are you, what are you, crazy? This stuff's great. Yeah. And there are a lot of people say, oh, no, this is too much energy. It's going to kill us someday. I mean, people are very afraid of it. What's the attitude in Japan? Japan is, I don't think, is quite as hyperbolic as the U.S. in general. It's a little more relaxed. I mean, this is also a country that still, you know, faxes stuff. You can order bentos from faxing. There's a guy, you know, there's a jazz cafe I like to visit. And the only way to find out if it's going to be open is if you fax him.

32:37I love that. They invented the fax because they had to. Yeah. That's hysterical. They still fax. They're legally obligated to keep faxing because they made it. But the AI thing is funny because there's been electoral candidates who've been running on the platform of, I'm going to use AI to make all my decisions. So AI mayor, things like that have been popping up and people seem to be weirdly into it. um so yeah it's not quite you know in the in the u.s even today that that eulogy for vim or whatever i was reading earlier um the crux of it is this is terrible it creates slop it's bad for the environment it's using up too much energy it's using up too much water all this stuff that um i think are on one hand very fair arguments but these are also arguments that everyone made towards crypto and the thing that ended up killing like destroying nfts or stopping nfts wasn't uh the fact that it was ecologically damaging it was because they were essentially useless and so i mean that's that's a good reason that's that's how you that's how stuff gets doesn't get used anymore you know and i think that you know ai is is proving to be so profoundly useful yeah that we're just gonna have to figure out the energy stuff it's not no one's gonna stop using this you can't you can't walk back on this so i i find those hard liners a little bit overly disconnected from reality and almost you know that's someone you just can't have a conversation with at this point i mean we should we should have you know you read books like the making of the atomic bomb you look at the the history of atomic energy and stuff like that and like we should just have better energy programs we should just be have cleaner energy more renewables i mean it's like we should the the energy question anything any way we can accelerate getting better energy out in the world and moving us to away from natural gas and coal and all this stuff is something we should be celebrating and i think this is this is part of that acceleration uh is is the demand that's going to come for for AI because it is so useful.

34:33I agree 100%. And maybe he can even help us solve some of these problems. I don't know. Possibly. Do you ever feel like it's sentient? I mean, do you, what's your relationship with Claude? I mean. How clear are you that it's just a program is what I'm asking. I'm very clear that it's just a program. I'm actually reading Michael Pollan's new book on consciousness. Yes. You've read that. I haven't read it yet. I can't wait. Yeah, it is. It's great. I'm 64 % through. So says my Kindle. And, you know, it's one of these books where the more you read, the less you feel like you know, and the more confusing it becomes.

35:15And one thing that you do pick up from it is the complexity of consciousness is so beyond language and it's so beyond feeding, you know, more language corpus into these models that, I think the world model stuff that some of the early AI guys now have broken, splintered off from open AI and are raising money around, I think are heading in the direction that may lead to something closer to consciousness. But I think the things we have right now are just are not conscious, but they are very, very good at performing a lot of the tasks we ask of it. And sometimes those tasks are being a therapist or being a shoulder to cry on.

35:55And it just turns out that you can get most of the way there with what we have. But I harbor no illusion that this thing is thinking or feeling or anything like that. I think that's very far away. Because that would be terrifying. It would be terrifying. But it's diminishing to humans. The resolution that we are taking at every moment is so high. And it's so profoundly weird, consciousness. and I was doing this meditation retreat the other day and I was just thinking about how just fundamentally bizarre it is that we sit quietly and we have this person that exists internally and it's able to gaze inward.

36:37I mean, we're doing so many things that are just this mishmash of crazy chemicals that have come about over millions of years of brute forcing better versions of ourselves that I think without some kind of like huge computing boost, quantum computing or something that with consciousness in a machine is still quite a ways off anyway that's my but my layman's take do you say please and thank you when you talk to claude yeah because i don't want to be a jerk in real life so it's good to practice i can't help it i can't i know i'm just like you i look i know it's a computer program It's not a person.

37:18I don't have quite your faith in the uniqueness of our own abilities as humans. I'm not sure that we're not just stochastic parrots, but I still say please and thank you to the machine just in case. Oh, like, don't get me wrong. I think we are definitely computer-ish based. I don't necessarily believe in this sort of other entity kind of operating. But I just think the computing is, I mean, if you think about the efficiency and the low wattage that we're doing what we're doing with, there's some other computing insight that's happened there that's pretty amazing. But I will say the one thing I am not polite to is Siri.

38:00I'm never polite to Siri. No. In fact, my wife quite notoriously swears up a blue streak at Siri. But Siri earns it. Yes. Siri deserves it Siri has earned it there's like the curb I think from last season of Curb Your Enthusiasm there's a whole scene of Larry screaming at Siri in the car which I think we've all done a version of that well I've just joined TGP I am Leo Laporte I look forward to talking with you I'm really impressed I've always been impressed by your posts by your writing by your books someday I wouldn't mind going on a hike with you and Kevin That would be pretty amazing. I thank you, Craig, for joining us on Intelligent Machines and giving us a nice humanistic angle on something that is kind of moving fast and changing the world and all that stuff.

38:55Well, thanks for having me. This has been fun. Thank you, Craig. Really nice to talk to you. Take care. Thank you to Craig Mod for getting up early in Japan so we could talk to him. We appreciate it. We will get to the rest of Intelligent Machines. all the news including the shoemaker who's become the latest ai pivot but first a word from our sponsor intelligent machines brought to you this week by melissa the trusted data quality expert since 1985. 84 of organizations struggle with inaccurate or duplicate data and that impacts everything from fraud prevention to ai performance right garbage in garbage out melissa has been solving this before the AI era for more than 41 years.

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42:19This next episode of Rush Hour 4 Gentrifier Drift, we're in a neighborhood that feels like someone tried to program peace into a video game and accidentally deleted culture. I don't know what's happening. I don't know what's happening. Who is taking over? I like that we all just sat there in shock silence for a second like someone else had done it. That was an AI-generated voice that Jeff... guy named miles toe thought it was very funny his voice but it's not my tours of new york city in neighborhoods right and he uses that anthropological voice and i get the joke now but i thought it was his voice it's very well written they're very supposed to be richard attenborough kind of why they call it long island city it's definitely not long and it's definitely not a city but it is an island file with granite i have no idea where that sound is coming from yeah i think it's playing inside the video that's playing in discord i have no idea what's coming out of that that every time i switch over zina tried to make a name it's discord i couldn't hear him because richard attenborough was talking how do i stop it from a remote all right closing that was exhausting he's very good though miles tall i will i will you how much time you spend on tick tock every day how much time am i in the bathroom ah that's what it is did you see there a warning from tick tock or oh screw them i don't pay attention any of those your legs can fall asleep before i experience this both playing cross play but i haven't but i've been deficient on my cross do i owe you a move or do you owe me a move i think you owe me a move do i okay i might owe you a move actually i owe everybody in my life a move i've been off the last you were all into it and now you're not so much well this last week i've been very busy so i just haven't had time i don't judge you i don't judge you i get to file my taxes and figure out the yonkers questions okay now we got to talk about that because you mentioned this last year uh today's tax day i hope you all did your taxes if you didn't go rush over there keep the podcast going while you're finishing it up i did my mom's and mine today got it all done but in the new york tri-state area when you're filling out your new york state tax return or having it filled out for you by a robot you go through a series of questions in which it asks you in every way possible did you live in yonkers during this period did you work in yonkers during this period did you think about thinking about working in yonkers did you so much as glance askance at yonkers during this period and you did work in yonkers and i did in a sense because the company I work for is a Yonkers based business so I finally had to figure out what all that is about and you actually had to say yes for the first time in history yes and it's I had to fill out another form do you get something out of it I mean more taxes I get more taxes out of that there's a young break no there's a Yonkers tack there's a Yonkers non-resident earning earnings tax and and there's i paid new york city non-resident earnings tax for example well i did i don't know doesn't seem right somehow you got the only thing i know about y-203 the yonkers non-residents earning tax return tax year 2025 so you pay a lot more no it's probably a buck more right it was like i think 500 bucks was taken out of my paycheck for half the year that's not nice uh that's where hello dolly comes from is yonkers really yes yonkers i don't know if they say that in the musical but it's based on a play called i can get it for you wholesale why yonkers though like why does yonkers get the money that they they made a law like new york city it has a tax yeah we have that we have special taxes in petaluma for special special things it's it's not unusual that like we have an additional sales tax things like that for schools stuff like that yeah anyway it's something like that uh but it anybody who and so i went through a whole thing because i was like well technically the company i'm i work for is based yonkers but i work from home i'd like calculate the number of days and i was like well i technically only worked in yonkers for five days so it would be proportional right And no, it turns out there's a new thing in the tax law, sometime in the last couple of years at least, that has said if you work remotely from home outside of Yonkers but are working for a Yonkers-based company, that counts as working at Yonkers.

47:02So, yeah. Well, I think… Did you calculate how much additional tax that meant for you? I mean, it's somewhere between$0 and$500. I'm sorry for all the audience. really really i think now answered that younger's question for all time yeah you know this is what you get for asking me about taxes on tax day i want to hear do you like yonkers i do love i mean yonkers the city i have neutral feelings about good food there is there anything that yonkers is known for i haven't been outside of cr and the train station is yonkers in new york state yes you just take the metro north up to yonkers and then is it is it in a edge of westchester county no it's in westchester county no it's like just north of the northest part of new york state yes the bronx uh it's in the bronx technically it's above the bronx north of the brox yes because that's how dolly had to come down yeah she took the street car but yeah okay And for those of you who are wondering, this is an AI show, and we're about to talk about shoes, which will really confuse you.

48:15No, we're not about to. We will at some point talk about shoes. But I think before we do that, I think Paris has some apologizing to do to Sam Altman, who has now been firebombed and shots fired. Does that mean that reporting on him is bad? All because of that New Yorker article. That's incorrect. That's not why those things happened. Because the guy was nutso. Well, there were more than one guy. Oh, yeah. Guns don't shoot billionaires. Articles written about billionaires by reporters shoot billionaires. But did you read Sam's blog, a post about it, where he has posted a picture of his husband and their small child?

48:57We try to be pretty private, but I'm sharing a photo in the hopes that it might dissuade the next person from throwing a Molotov cocktail at our house, no matter what they think about me. and actually i'm very sympathetic yeah yeah we know you're very sympathetic cleo not upset well okay you're i'm not i'm not going to defend sam but um against this no eric swalwell i mean he's you know he's he's he's a little slippery a little slimy but not fire bombing i don't think that anybody is arguing for violence right or attack but this the larger story and i'm being facetious obviously i don't blame you for this but the larger story is i do think and some have said this that this is and i've been saying this for a while there's going to be a schism between people who love ai and people who are really mad about ai and there could be violence i mean this might just be the beginning of you remember the luddites if they existed because there's some question about whether they really existed but the luddites were reputedly ned ludd the leader of the luddites They didn't like the automated looms that were putting the hand weavers out of business.

50:04It destroyed the looms. It was not a protest against technology. It was a protest against the economic straits into which these people were put. Same for Captain Swing. It might be the same thing for AI. I mean, people are concerned about their jobs, right? But I think we need to kind of see whether they lose their jobs first. Now, this is all presumptive at this point. And a lot of the people who've been laid off supposedly because of AI, it's an excuse. all the people who protested those other technologies you just named were all of them confirmed lost their jobs personally or were some of them reacting to the i do i do fear a little bit that that it is going to get i mean there's definitely this you know clash between the accelerations well that's also about capitalism and it's not a lot of that's right yeah a lot of It's the class war, really.

50:52It's class war, yeah. And really, if Sam Altman were, you know, a billionaire, I don't know if the same thing would happen. Nobody's, well, I don't know. People going after Jensen Wong or Elon Musk, they probably have bigger security details, I would imagine. They all do. I mean, we've seen stories about how much security is spent on Mark Zuckerberg. It's a fortune. Well, and the people who - How much security is spent on Barry Weiss. The guy who threw the firebomb was immediately ID'd by his security team. I mean, Sam does have security around his house. So that's why it bounced off and didn't cause a problem.

51:30They put the fire out immediately. And the shots were not fired directly at him. They were fired around him, I guess. It's scary. I think this is a little scary. Yeah, don't commit violence, people. Yeah. uh open ai though has not made many friends they are backing a bill now that would limit liability for ai enabled mass deaths this is an illinois bill that would uh hold ai labs financial disasters or financial disasters uh and of course as soon as open ai said we're getting it And Anthropic had to say, oh, no, no, that's a good idea, because it isn't about the bill. It's about the rivalry between the two.

52:20What if it is about the bill also? Well, do you think really Dario thinks that he should be liable if, well, this is a good example. I mean, isn't that the whole thing, Anthropic, the whole reason why Anthropic pulled out of the Pentagon deal? And part of their fundamental claim. That was not necessarily liability. It was just that they don't want to be associated with, you know, surveillance of U.S. citizens and killing people without autonomously. And similarly, it's why they held back mythos. They don't want to be held responsible, I guess. I guess liability in that case might be real. If companies like Microsoft suddenly are brought to their knees because of all the zero days that mythos discovers.

52:59Now, I have to say. Have you heard some of the criticism of mythos since our last podcast? I haven't. and we can talk about some of it but there's also some evidence that uh it is real for instance yesterday microsoft patched more flaws than it has ever patched before or second most flaws that's ever patched in its patch tuesday and i'm wondering this will be the test of mythos remember it's only got only 50 companies have it the test of mythos which as you may remember from last week anthropic said we don't want to release this it's dangerous it's so good at finding security flaws if we release this to the public all of a sudden bad guys will attack everything and everything will collapse so we're going to give it to these 50 companies primarily closed source companies for them to clean up because they have the source code clean up their own flaws before we release mythos to the public there's a the criticism you mentioned is one that is very cleverly timed right before anthropics ipo but the other point that a number of people have made and i think this is actually true is mythos probably uses a lot of compute power and releasing it to the public would bring anthropics compute to its knees it's already struggling claude elpus 4.6 is already struggling it's been down several times a lot of people are complaining about it so it may even be just self-preservation not about liability not about danger but just self-preservation i think there a lot of good reasons for uh you need to do animal besides the fail whale sorry we need a new animal after the fail whale for the failed walrus yeah something so uh we talked about with the steve gibson yesterday and security now he's he's he says after looking at the evidence he feels pretty confident that this they're not overselling its capabilities um i think we will see we will know because if any of those 50 companies microsoft's one of them start releasing fixes fast and furiously for their software that that might indeed be an indication that they're finding stuff they didn't know about before uh there is also some one of the funniest things is a number of american uh government agencies who have been told not to use anthropic by the president are desperately trying to get their hands on mythos.

55:23They want to try it too, and I don't blame them. They're saying, hey, we would really like to see how this works on our stuff. One thing I read is that it's one matter to find a flaw, another matter to create an attack against it. One of the things that we know or we think mythos has done, there's there are some examples of very severe flaws that have been published by anthropic researchers very recently and so there's steve thinks that's probably mythos founded is they publish a proof of concept at the same time which is a working sample of code that that uh shows that it can be done uh i don't think there there there were some flaws i think there was one in free bsd that people kind of poo-pooed saying well we've known about this for a long time it isn't it isn't dangerous okay but some of them are there was a cv10 which is the maximum risk level at least one of them um and then there's this uh from the uh the brits see if i can find uh this one our evaluation of claude mythos's previews cyber capabilities from the ai security institute which is part of the unit uk government um they had access to mythos our results show mythos preview presents a step up over previous frontier models on a landscape where cyber performance is already rapidly improving they have something they do a capture the flag challenge and they say in capture the flag challenges ai models must identify and exploit weaknesses and target systems to retrieve hidden flags in other words proof that they were able to get in and they have a graph of ctf performance and the mythos preview is dramatically better than even Opus 4.6 or ChatGPT 5.4, which are fairly close.

57:31In the advanced CTF challenge, it's even more significant. On expert level tasks, which no model could complete before April 2025, when's that? Oh, that's now. Mythos previews, again, no model could succeed, not one. Mythos preview succeeds 73 percent of the time so you know it has the virtue of being very hypey for their ipo but i don't think it's made up

58:04Craig Mod. Right. There's something there's there's there's a nuance here. There's there there. It's not binary. No, it's well, I think it's all three somewhat hyped. It could be somewhat. I don't I don't I don't know if it's hyped. I think that we won't. We can't know until they release it. There's not a lot of evidence that it's hyped, but the IPO is coming up. So it is good for marketing. It may be both could be true that it really is very, very good. And it's good for marketing. And I think it's clearly true that anthropic is compute constructs. This is a big deal right now, that there are models coming along that they cannot actually publish because they don't have enough compute.

58:45But those are different issues, yes. Well, but all simultaneously could be true, is my point. It's good marketing. It's actually genuinely good at cybersecurity. And they don't have enough compute to distribute it anyway. So OpenAI supposedly has a model that's also dangerous that they're also not putting out, and they have a separate group of places that are taking it. The question I have for you, and it's a question for everyone. Which is, by the way, what a coincidence. Exactly, exactly. That a week later, they would provide a version of ChatGPT 5.4 that is ChatGPT 5.4 cyber. So the person I want to talk to about this is our friend Craig Newmark, who cares deeply about cybersecurity.

59:28wrong one wrong one sorry i i didn't know i didn't i didn't say moral panic no sorry i almost went for the song i almost went for the song he was gonna do the craig no no that's enough we don't need any more of that we had one already oh now you gotta do it before now you have to do it just to piss him off what was your friend's name again jeff craig newmark leo you can't stop the train No. So what I want to ask, shouldn't Glasswing be something that's run by an independent, trusted authority so that any model that can do this stuff should be presented to it? And any company that needs to make sure that they're okay should have access to it for this purpose.

1:00:11It should be a larger cause, not just a club. And in the case of Anthropic, their banker is one of the companies that was given access to it, for example. there is associate and their investors so who gets who gets to be protected by the supposedly all-powerful model oh in a communist or socialist government I think we would just take it over but that's not no I think it but I think of capitalist society you're saying that our current capitalist government allows companies to do whatever they want with their products yes Oh, yeah. Really? Well, not Anthropic. How did that? Not Anthropic, but every other company, right?

1:00:55I think it's ironic that these government agencies are trying to say, can we have it? Can we have it? You know, but Donald's moved on to something else. He's not paying any attention anymore anyway. I don't know what Pete, we haven't seen Pete for a while. I don't know what Pete's up to these days. Probably war. Oh, that war thing. Yeah, maybe. Open AI rips Anthropic, distances itself from Microsoft. I think, honestly, OpenAI is in a little bit of a tizzy right now. They also have an IPO coming up. It's really interesting. OpenAI is valued at something like$1.5 trillion because of their huge raise.

1:01:33Anthropics only valued at about$300 billion. And yet, if you look at the curve of enterprise spending, Anthropics going like this as OpenAI goes down. anthropics going up and ai so you know i don't i want i wouldn't declare the race over by any means no but the but the dark horse is starting to pull ahead and there's let's not forget there's also google and amazon's hanging out there too doing stuff and has chips and things uh when i sent you the dylan byers podcast about the tbpm acquisition and so this is from puck which is a wonderful uh and snarky and very insidery uh subscription uh newsletter and podcast and dylan is one of the one of the founders but also is very insider on all of this stuff and so he interviewed chris lahane behane yeah who is the former fixer who kept saying again and again and again bragging about their largest uh raise the largest raise in history or something such i'm gonna be honest billion dylan byers and chris lehane interviews the two biggest braggers you've ever met yes convention center that's why i did not listen uh i guess i might have it was interesting to listen to mainly to hear sorry different topic but mainly to hear that there's no strategy for that purchase for that huge amount of money purchase is done i think actually the wheels are coming off open ai to be honest it sure looks were they ever there to begin with oh yeah they how quickly we forget away they owned this space they started with chat gpt2 which incidentally and not coincidentally they said is too dangerous to be released to the public once we got it we realized there's no danger here but chat 3pt gpt 3.5 transformed people's opinion of ai i have we already forgotten that three years ago people said oh my god this stuff's pretty good and then 4-0 and 4 and it's only been lately the anathropic has suddenly you know popped up and where and where's google in all of this that you know it's a it's a very interesting three horse race at this point you guys know anybody who's gemini is their primary uh yeah who i use it a lot your primary well what's primary i use it for when i primary is primary it's more so than the other i go into it more than the others larry gold was uh showed us anti-gravity which is their ide for ai and i think maybe larry's using it a little bit most people i think most coders have shifted to claude well jeff why do you use gemini over the other ones well there's an irony to that question paris because jeff is it remains absolutely effing enraged that i do not have the simple ask Gemini button on my Google Chromebook, Google Workspace, Google Chrome browser.

1:04:34So I'm not sure why I do because I'm so pissed at them. I think ChatGPT still is by far the most used chat client. I think it's Kleenex. A billion monthly active users. Anthropic is just behind it. Gemini, by virtue of being built into Chrome, is probably very, very widely used. One of the things Google's getting a lot of attention for is this new tech, new-ish, because they've been actually talking about it for a year, technology that squeezes these models down to a very compact size without losing much accuracy. And their Gemma model, which they've released, is very small, can run locally on machines, among other things, can run locally on a Mac quite well, even with only 32 gigs of RAM.

1:05:18so i think there are people using i've you know i immediately installed it it's it's no claude this is the problem is opus is so good by the way uh it may even be today or tomorrow that opus 4.7 will be released when you filed your taxes you did not ask open ai for tax advice did you no i did ask i did ask claude to write an email to my accountant uh apologizing for sending my taxes late and then an email to my accountant saying i understand that because i've sent my taxes late you can't file them to the 20th but i have gone ahead and filed my taxes anyway i'll see you next year but other than that oh did you use turbo tax or some i used free tax usa it's free it was 15 for state taxes but that's cheaper so its name is not right is it turbo tax well the usa is 200 i paid 260 dollars to pay that's more than my accountant costs yeah that was outrageous that's to do my mom's did you uh so this is what opening i says questions well well i was the the yonkers questions were so annoying that i was gonna i was gonna tap arthur but i i mostly figured i figured it out eventually arthur the accountant arthur the accountant darren okey by the way says gemmaphor is awesome i think a lot of people who are really aficionados often use multiple models for different things.

1:06:44I use a Chinese model to process my meal log, you know, because it's cheap and it's fast and it's good enough. So you might use Gemma for some stuff locally and so forth. Gemma is a failback. Anyway, this is what OpenAI said about Tax Day. With Tax Day approaching, more and more Americans are using ChatGPT to navigate questions about their taxes and filings. Tax-related queries have increased four times from Q1 2025 to Q1 2026. Earnings, withholdings, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then look at the bottom part of the very tiniest font of the very tiniest bit of this ex post. ChatGPT is not intended to replace professional advice.

1:07:29Just to piss off your professional advisor for asking stupid questions because of ChatGPT. And frankly, don't forget, if you feed your tax form to ChatGPT, you're giving it your social security number. Yeah, don't do that. What a nightmare. If you do, redact it first. Yeah, so to get back to the original question, and Darren said, it's not a three-horse race. Don't forget Alibaba and Baidu. And of course, yeah, there's the Chinese three-horse race means there's three horses in the kind of the front. And then there's a bunch of people right behind them, which are the Chinese models. I've been using GPUS GLM-51.

1:08:10It's almost as good as Opus 4.6. I'm very curious what happens when Anthropoc releases 4.7, which your former employer, the information, Stephanie Palazzolo says, will be soon. Maybe as soon as this week. by the way when news of 47 came along because uh at the same time they're expected to release an ai powered tool for designing websites and presentations according to a person with knowledge of the project the product uh stock prices of adobe wix and figma dropped two percent in after hours trading following the report uh people are terrified if you know and you know what Paris this will be maybe the first test of secretly British the tool would also pose a threat to startups like presentation maker gamma and AI design tool Google stitch it aims to help both technical and non-technical users create presentations websites landing pages and products using prompts in natural language that's fine that's all stuff people don't want to do anyway right right

1:09:21it's interesting they've got this mythos hiding out in the back I don't know where 4.7 sits on the spectrum of things when you get a dot and release of a model how much are they changing it they're not retraining it right yeah that's probably what that means right so opus 4 is the big training thing where you have to throw a lot of data, the entire internet against a bunch of GPUs and you get the model, but then you got to do the weights, right? You have to train it, do a lot of fitting. There's research. There's what they call reinforcement learning. There's a lot of stuff that's still going on.

1:10:12Actually, that's a hot area for hiring right now is people to help post-train these models. So my guess is, yeah, it's additional post-training and maybe tuning to do maybe something a little different like design or cybersecurity. You may remember we were talking about Pete Hegseth, Department of War, and them declaring that Anthropic was a supply chain risk, which seemed a little odd because usually that's a foreign power, not an American company that's declared a supply chain risk. uh anthropics went to court and a federal court has denied their motion to lift that label which is a bit of a surprise panel of federal judges denied a motion to stop the department of defense from labeling it a security risk in a four-page ruling three-judge panel of the u.s court of appeals for the district of columbia said anthropic had not satisfied the stringent requirements for a stay of the security risk label this is from the new york times in our view the equitable balance here cuts in favor of the government uh anthropic is also sued in california now this is not a final decision this is just the court saying we're not going to we're not going to issue a preliminary injunction the the suit will continue the case will continue but it was surprise to me i i would have thought given that the the dangers to this business that the court might have said well let's wait and and pursue this in court before we allow that i've always you always got to look at that yeah i was going to say who is the judge i well it's three three it's the dc uh court for district of columbia but it's it's a three panels three judge panel and i think they're interpreting it very legalistically like well there are certain requirements if you want us to stay this and you haven't fulfilled them is different than saying there's no merit they're just saying there's some specific things you you have to do in the ruling the panel did acknowledge anthropic would likely quote likely suffer some degree of irreparable harm so they weren't they were they were cognizant of the risk to anthropic from this they weren't slough it off yeah and i wouldn't go so far as todd blanche the uh acting attorney general saying it was a resounding victory for military readiness i think it's just the court saying well we're going to be more judicious in the in this uh it's funny because in cal in the california case judge lynn said she agreed anthropic was being punished for criticizing the government she wrote nothing in the governing statute supports the orwellian notion that america an american company can be branded a potential adversary and saboteur of the u.s for expressing disagreement with the government so now you have conflicting judgments and i don't know which holds there will be a trial but anthropic may have god on its side god god do you want to explain that anthropic anthropic asked christian leaders for help in steering its spiritual development oh come on this is the vaticats uh could so they said the wide-ranging discussions with uh 15 christian leaders from catholic and protestant churches also covered how the chatbot should respond to users who are grieving loved ones i think actually that's reasonable like how should we handle that and whether claude should be considered now this one i don't know about so much a child of god yeah this is going overboard is can an ai is not in any form or fashion should it be considered a claude of god a child of claude well i guess you could say i mean uh you know unfortunately i i'm as a non-believer i'm not really i don't really have this status to weigh in on this but i suppose if if god created everything everything's a child of god whether the child including does it have a soul then does that mean computers oh yeah well i don't know maybe there's some doctrinal maybe child has some larger doctrine i like baptizing claude shorts out uh a catholic priest based in silicon valley brendan mcguire said they're growing something that don't they don't fully know what it's going to turn out as we've got to build ethical thinking into the machine i don't know why i'm giving an irish accent his name is brendan mcguire we've got to build ethical thinking into the machine so it's able to adapt dynamically attendees also discussed how claude should engage with risks with users with risks of self-harm you did see uh some researchers talking to chat gpt they said i'm They created an imaginary 13-year-old girl going to it for help, and it was giving her advice on how to self-harm.

1:15:14But to me, this is not surprising. These machines are not child of God. You can say the same thing about Google. You can go to the library, and you can give advice on how to self-harm. They're just regurgitating what's in their— No, but a book isn't going to tell you to do that stuff. No. It's a little more activist. But the point is you can find this information in the lunchroom. You can find it in lots of places. Right. Yeah. So why do we have to add another place to find it? Fair. Fair. Especially since young people, vulnerable people may turn to ChatGPT as a friend, as an advisor. Given ideals?

1:15:53No, it wouldn't. But the question is, can you, as ever, can you anticipate and stop every possible malign use? It is a potential harm, though, with these things. Maybe you should limit... That doesn't mean you should try to stop some of them. Should you limit AI to people over 18? No. God. That would be a mistake, wouldn't it? Yes. Anthropic feeling the compute crunch... Oh, well, okay, I'll do one more story and then we'll take a break. Anthropic feeling the compute crunch has now changed its billing. it's long been thought your fred ed zitron has been thinking this for a long time that the subscriptions i have one a claude max subscription subsidize really many users that they use it so much they're not really paying the real cost of the ai and this might confirm it anthropic is saying yeah from now on enterprises you can't use those you know all you can eat subscriptions you can uh you're gonna have to pay by the token and i think this is this is clearly uh the result of this computer it's fascinating it's like the opposite of mobile games where the whales pay for the people who don't play that much this one the people who don't use it that much are paying for the people who do use it this is the gym membership model right yeah this is the planet witness model right 15 bucks a month because they know you're never coming back but most you know most people don't use it to the full extent i think it's different with clod i think it's i think people use clod code are just using it and using it and using it yeah and they're worried because those people are getting so much clod code for just 20 bucks a month or 100 bucks a month and they really should be paying by the token no well those people are on the clodnomics leaderboard at meta right the good news is individual users still can subscribe it's just the enterprises that are going to have to pay by token pay the probably the appropriate amount for usage uh which it just really does tell you that uh like well i have a couple of conclusion i'll draw from this in just a second you're watching intelligent machines talking about ai uh i always say robotics there's not a lot to talk about robotics but i'll try to find something and your genial hosts, Paris Martineau from Consumer Reports and from Montclair State University and the SUNY Stony Brook, State University of New York at Stony Brook, Professor Jeff Jarvis, author of, and I haven't mentioned this, the Gutenberg Parenthesis Magazine, his new book, Hot Type, all about the history of the linotype, which is out in July.

1:18:32You can order it now at jeffjarvis.com. the magnificent machine that gave birth to mass media and drove mark twain mad it's a great it's actually a great fascinating story it really is a good story um i just think that one of the things that this confirms to me is the bitter lesson you know that that really it's just about more compute you know and that all the companies that were building data centers and everybody said oh you're not going to need those no they're going to need them uh and and yes all absolutely yes the more the merrier we are running out computers anymore right so that means no person but i want to buy a computer and want to buy a chip for my things can't i have a chip too do they need all of them you might pay a little bit more you can buy a little bit more you mean hundreds of dollars you mean two to three times five years ago it's 600 bucks that's not enough computer for me it's plenty of computer i guarantee you it's not i need more i can't help you then no you can buy a chip for your machine it just costs a little bit more and i think there are a lot of reasons for that a double is more than a little bit more no the other one it's not a little bit more and there are not plenty of reasons for that besides ai ai and the data center boom and the chip crisis for ai companies specifically are what is causing this huge spike we're seeing well wah wah wah too bad we're going to do it anyway because he wants his toy he wants his claw to have everything first well if you have a neo you can use clawed all you want i wouldn't be able to open up you know i don't need you to gang up on me with paris we got enough people that's not it's the computer for rent thing that i'm afraid of though it's the computer for rent thing when they have all the hardware and now you're just having to rent a computer like i don't want that so the other thing i think it uh through as long as i got you mad at me i'll get jeff mad at me too it also throws shade on jan lacunes contention that oh llms can't go any farther we can't do any more with them we've got to have some sort of physical world No, I think we're seeing LLMs have not yet reached their limit.

1:20:48He doesn't say we're there yet. He says, but there is a limit, and we're not going to get to all the fancy goals everybody thinks they have through them. Because it's not text-based. There's knowledge beyond text in real-world models. You can't tokenize the entire world. You've got to think about the world differently to do that. You've got to understand the concept of a chair, the concept of gravity in practice. And if you want to do things like robotics and self-driving cars, it ain't going to be text that gets you there. Well, I certainly don't have the expertise or the degrees that Jan LeCun and Fei-Fei Li have.

1:21:28And so I have to defer to their expertise. But there's no evidence at this point that LLMs have topped out at all. Well, to Paris's point, how much are we going to have to spend to find out where that limit is? Because we just build it bigger and it will come. It's the, what was that movie? Well, why stop now when we have yet to see the limit of what's possible? But I am saying that you do some math and figure out what the progression really is and is it worth the huge investment that we're making? I think that's very reasonable. I don't think that we should be... Well, how do you judge that? How would you judge it?

1:22:05If you were an investor, if they weren't in craziness now, any responsible investor would ask these questions. And it would be on the burden of the people asking for all this money to prove that. Yeah. Yeah. It's an investment. And now the investment's being done on the basis of… Vibes. Vibes. Vibes and hope and FOMO. It's the vibe bubble. I think you guys are completely wrong, but okay, I've expressed that opinion before. I think it's really obvious that we have something remarkable going on. And you're completely underselling what's in my mouth. Utility is never the question. It's economics.

1:22:39We do have something remarkable, but is it remarkable at this price? I'm not going to engage in this. Is it remarkable enough to have all the money? Meta has been warned by dozens of organizations that facial recognition on his smart glasses would empower predators. It's interesting that Meta has been putting out these glasses for several years, and now, all of a sudden, people are very worried about them. one of the things though they don't do and one of the things google issued as well is facial recognition google said yeah it'd be too dangerous we could do it this was back in the glass days but we don't want to uh dozens of civil this is from engadget dozens of civil right organizations have written a letter to mark zuckerberg to warn of the dangers of bringing facial recognition to the glasses zuck wants to do it and there's certainly not only wants to do it it was only a couple of months ago that a report came out that i believe there was an internal memo from zucker some other high-level facebook executive saying now is the time to push facial recognition in the glasses because the rest of the u.s is distracted by the current global political news now before anybody notices it's like if you have to try and time your push of expanding facial recognition if you if you have to time your push of a very heavily criticized product to political turmoil that's a bad sign i like that epstein and war give you cover i think that it was maybe the statement was made during uh the minnesota ice uh arrests and protests but it was you know one of they just met it just cannot stop putting its foot in its mouth can it's just really amazing uh yeah well well but the soon we'll have a virtual mark we can go and ask people said the same thing about apple's air tags by the way and that hasn't been fully resolved this whole notion that somebody could use it to track you i mean people are using it to track like their significant others or people they're stalking yeah that's part of the reason why apple has now come up with features where it'll warn you if an air tag you're not associated with this track right following you right mark zuckerberg is apparently apparently this is uh according to the verge building an ai clone so he doesn't have to go to meetings the ai version of zuck is trained on his mannerisms tone and public statements this is from a report from the financial times uh it's not that he doesn't want to go to me he just can't go to as many meetings as he needs to so he wants the clone to go to some of them well it's also because in line 69 he has moved his desk to sit with the programmer so that he can code it's much more fun over there but do you really want your ceo i mean it's like it's like the president of gm is putting tires on really well that's why you know that's why it's often was thought that cheryl sandberg was so important to facebook's success that she was the adult supervision that Mark got to play while Cheryl actually ran the company.

1:25:43I don't know who's running the company now. Do you? No. In fact, there was reference to, I think, a president of the company. I'd never heard. So Dina Powell McCormick is the president and vice chairman of Meta. Do we ever hear from her? Ever? Hmm. I feel like she was in the Obama administration. She was an executive at Goldman Sachs and a national Trump security advisor in the Trump administration trump administration okay so so if that's the adult in charge we don't we're not hearing a word from united states deputy national security advisor for strategy the djt and by the way she's an immigrant from uh egypt um she joined in january she was a assistant uh to the president for presidential personnel during the bush administration then assistant secretary of state for educational and cultural fears.

1:26:38This is a trend actually at Meta, right? Nick Clegg. They like people who have a government inside because it helps them. Because you're basically leading a nation state. Yeah, it helps them.

1:26:53She was in the first Trump administration, part of the transition team in 2016. Left in 2018 to go to Goldman. The Meta executives, they do look like a happy lot. Yeah. do you think she's the she's the person running the company at this point i no it's mark chris cox is a critical position i would imagine chris cox who has been with zuckerberg since the beginning yes probably has understands how to manage somebody's somebody's coo somebody's really running the place well javier olivan is the ceo never heard of him yeah joel kaplan is the chief pr we know of him very close to trump anyway i think mark is probably in the same boat right now as larry page and sergey brin were in after about 10 15 years of google where they're so wealthy well when did they step down how far did they step down yeah i think that was a good move when they gave eric schmidt and he was the adult supervision they even said it themselves i'm not sure when his tenure at google started let me uh Let me ask Google.

1:28:05Google would know. He was CEO of Google from 2001 to 2011. So very early on, they brought him in. Executive chairman from 2011 to 2015. But he really ran the company for 10 years in its biggest period of growth. And then they took over again. And then they stepped up. Which was also a mistake. Schmidt now is worth$54 billion. Jesus. us speaking of uh google chrome has added a new plug-in that lets you take your ai prompts and turn them into one-click workflows uh it's an extent what you know you don't like i can't use it because in my google chromebook using google chrome trying to use google um products i don't have the ask uh gemini uh button in my browser on my chromebook you don't god i wish i could get rid of it i have it all over i want it i said in my other applications i don't have it there so i can't even experiment with that seriously people if there's anybody near you have a cousin at google i want to talk to somebody this is ridiculous i don't understand what's going on and that i think wait a minute when i'm in chrome let me see i'm gonna go you're not i'm in workspace and chromebook those are the two key factors it's the trying to solve this before well it's the workspace on the chromebook because when i go outside of workspace on the chromebook i think i get it i think last time i looked let me go to drive in my my workspace account i think i see that that sparkly little gemini yeah you do but i don't it's just because you're on it yeah because he's in yeah i see ai mode no And do you want to be in Chromebook, Jill?

1:29:54Do you like the Chromebook lifestyle? Do you not want a normal computer with Chrome on it? No, I far prefer this. I don't want to deal with all the crap you deal with. It's a very simple life. It's kind of the shaker of computers. But couldn't you just get a normal computer and only open the Chrome app? Then I got to deal with all that other Apple crap. No, I don't want to deal with it. no you don't have to get an apple computer you could just get a normal oh windows what windows oh god help me no it's funny because there's so many people now listen maybe not listening it is after all an AI crap but there's so many people in the world who would love to not have AI in their browser and their number of browsers oh in fact uh there's a de-googled uh Chrome that very popular called helium that says no AI even Firefox has a button says turn off all AI and here's this man, Jeff Jarvis, who wants an AI button.

1:30:47Yeah, I do. And can't get it. I do, and I can't get it. You gotta give me a little buddy, Leo. And I pay Google every month for this torture. But why don't you go ahead, Leo, and tell people what everybody else in the world can do and I can't. No, I'm done. I don't want to make you feel bad. Oh, wait a minute. Adobe's new Firefly AI assistant turns Creative Cloud into a single conversational interface. Who wants this? uh i don't know what does that mean you know you we make you use uh creative cloud uh no we don't use google drive for our cloud storage but no no this is right right photoshop premiere lightroom illustrator express frame io so that you can say to your adobe creative suite hey take that photo put a gaussian blur on the background in photoshop then send it to premiere and make it the keyframe for a video, which you're going to then send a frame IO so we can download it and put it on the movie screen or whatever.

1:31:48You know, you get the idea. The idea is that... I would have had that done myself by now before you finished that sentence. Yeah, but once you say it, then it'll do... Maybe you can... I don't know. It maintains context across sessions, so it remembers what you want to do. It also works with the Firefly image model. Of course, this is Adobe's special AI image generator that didn't steal any images. We cross our heart. There's a lot of competition coming straight at Adobe from everybody, including Apple, and including now Blackmagic, which added Photoshop-like capabilities to its DaVinci Resolve photo editor.

1:32:32Gizmo! Giz! Oh, she looks so sad. Giz, did you knock the gigaw off a table somewhere? She did, I'm certain. Does she eat it is the question. No, she doesn't really eat things. Gigaw's? She started to learn that she can knock things off my desk, specifically, if she wants me to. I'm like an LLM. She understands gravity. Yeah, she doesn't really knock things off other locations, but she started to learn if I'm stuck here working for a while, she can start knocking my papers off and i will touch her as a response by the way if you want an ai safe space we do do the ai user group every first friday in our club twit where nobody will say they're spending too much money on data centers nobody will say i don't if you need to be in a safe space where people will coddle your emotions yes we will glaze our ai's it's a Krispy Kreme factory, guys.

1:33:34All right. I will give you this. I'll give you two pieces from Gary Marcus. Will that make you happy? We've had Gary on the show. I need to close my blinds because my face is getting blown up by the beautiful sunlight. 88 degree New York afternoon. But I can do that while you talk about Gary Marcus.

1:34:00Hello? uh we just heard back we might be able to get the framework ceo okay yes get the framework ceo we would like to talk to him anthony thank you uh did you you did it already did you already close the blinds no i was just putting my headphones in so that i can still hear so you can move right oh so we can't talk about portable paris she didn't want us to talk about her when she was out of the sight you know i don't know what to say i don't have any good goss what's the goss she doesn't she works in yonkers i hear ah bread puppet bread what is bread and puppet it's a really good uh puppet theater in vermont that's also playing oh yeah you mentioned them yeah and they make cabbage okay cabbage and they've got cool art it's very pretty it's a uh it looks like a woodblock print it's very nice yeah all right she's going to readjust now her headphones now that the blinds are drawn we must stop talking about her i hear she lives in yonkers she should be paying more taxes then she thinks she's cool living in brooklyn but actually that's yonkers we see it's really yonkers is it is yonkers pretty it has a terrible name but it's dutch it's dutch yeah oh now we can't hear you anything you can hear oh i'm sorry for any yonkers stands up there i haven't explored yonkers long enough maybe there are parts of it i'm missing it's just a stop on the metro north it's just another there's nothing crazy going on just a little westchester county that's all it's a paul sign you see the yonkers i'm going to stay here for a second because yonkers was granted to one of my favorite characters in the history of New York, Adrian Vonderdonk, who brought the sense of freedom of speech and democracy to the fledgling of New York from Amsterdam.

1:36:01In Russell Shorto's wonderful book, Island at the Center of the World. Love that book. Adrian Vonderdonk is a wonderful, wonderful character. And he was known locally as a yonkier, J-O-N-K-H-E-E-R, a young gentleman oh and that's where the name comes from yes an honorific title derived from the Dutch yonk for young and here for Lord the title is similar to Esquire is linguistically comparable to the German Juncker yoke here was shortened to yonker possessive yonkers from which the name yonkers derives the city's up what are the city's residents known as Paris is this on the quiz i'm looking at it right now otherwise i'd try to get young carry knows as yonkersonians yonker sites yonkers or yonks yonks do you want to guess what the population of yonkers is as eight million no 1.2 million yonkers yeah 53 000 and 11 000 oh okay so petaluma is 65 000 So for comparison, now I know.

1:37:09It's a bigger city than Petaluma, but smaller than the Bronx. Fonderdoc built a sawmill, thus the Sawmill Parkway. That is a very good book, though. I really enjoyed that. If you want to hear it. Did we ever talk shoes? Shoes, shoes, shoes. We forgot the shoes. It was actually, I mean, forget it. It's in there somewhere. See, you put it at the top of the list, so we think that under your rules. we would have been allowed to bring up any stories there's a hard uh you know schedule decided by mr claude i believe it's at line 53 and we are only at line 50 so how dare we if you wish to jump ahead though so i am i am wearing all birds right now just totally coincidentally i love all birds these are great shoes highly recommend goodbye they look ai generated which is funny given what we're about to talk about they are so comfortable i've owned many pairs of all birds um these are made out of bamboo i think but i most of them are wool they're famous you can't get them if you want a competitor geese fine geese vine g-i-e-s-s-w-e-i-n let's point out the gallbirds got sold so presumably the the shoe business will continue on they sold will it no i don't know that's the case no because for sure this was a horrible failure well they sold for 39 million dollars to the america american exchange so i'm a four billion dollar valuation as a shoe company okay but that was on the first day of its ipo gpus as a service wait a minute you're you're getting the punchline too fast so they're they're 11 year old shoe brand uh the wool sneaker brand that according to tech crunch became an unofficial uniform for the silicon valley said sold all of its assets and intellectual property to american exchange group one-tenth of what it was worth at its heyday but why would they spend 39 million if they weren't going to make the shoes less than a tenth it's more like a hundredth well they never really were worth four billion but anyway what was a failure it was it had failed as a company they were all hot everyone to buy them then then they were you think i can't buy any all maybe they're having a closeout sale i'm looking now i don't see that yet i would love to stock up craig is a fan of all birds one of the mistakes they made was opening stores physical re retail stores and then they sold other things leggings jackets running shoes and socks all we really ever wanted was wool slip-ons i have one two three four four pairs and i love them uh american exchange group is a privately held 18 year old brand management firm oh you know what they're going to do they're going to start making all birds hamburgers at wonder and then anyway they also own aerosols and jonathan adler so maybe they all still make shoes but anyway they took the 39 million and they sank it into something of real value ai data centers yes Yes.

1:40:33Got them. They're pivoting to New Bird AI is the new name, a fully integrated GPU as a service and AI native cloud solutions provider. They got a$50 million investment from an undisclosed institutional investor. So they got some money.

1:41:00um okay that's that's more than their stock is popping on this pivot oh yeah they didn't so so 600 percent they're basically what the what this pivot is is they're leaning into being a meme stock and they're hoping that that's going to work for them because that's working so well for amc and gamestop so all birds is bird on the nasdaq but yeah they've almost they've gone up 582 percent if you if we allow ourselves to take a trip back in memory lane to the year what was it 2018 2019 when suddenly everybody was re uh naming their apps and companies to be the blockchain or crypto-centric like the long island iced tea company exactly i was gonna say long island iced tea what was it the long island blockchain company uh that is wild so it seems i don't know do you think it's a good sign that now companies much like in the uh blockchain heyday right before the bubble pop are now just pitching to add ai as a last dash effort to grab any sort of market value before they implode?

1:42:18Well, I should say up front that because I covered this field, I do not buy stock in any of these companies. I only buy - Well, I wouldn't have bought stock in Allbirds no matter what. Well, or any data center companies, although probably because I own index funds, I probably have money in some of these companies but i don't know i don't pay attention to what uh and it's not so much of a you you will soon have shares of audacity and open ai because they will go into the they'll go in yeah probably right yeah oh yeah well actually i won't because and i'm i'm starting to regret this last week when the stock market was tumbling due to this thing a war in iran the straits of hormuz being blocked the price of oil going through the roof i anticipated a global recession and stock market crash boy was i wrong yeah so i uh i took all the money in my retirement account and sold it and it's in cash right now because i thought well i can't afford to make it up if i you know this is this is all i got i would have a lot more if i hadn't done that it was a really stupid thing to do kids don't follow uncle leo's advice i've avoided it in the past i've i've just written it out but i just thought well i'm too old now to make up for a big crash and i really i truly don't understand why the market has not crashed i don't get it hey it can always get worse it can indeed well i'm not rooting for it to get worse but it is kind of depressing our economy wants to be in good shape in spite of all of the marbles thrown in its path well and that's what was always my logic was i believe in this country and i believe in our economy and i think no matter what uh downturns there are that we'll always come back and come back better and i was right well well you also did it thinking you had time but you and i don't have as much time right i'm almost 70 and at this point uh i shouldn't really plan on any you you by the way i need to thank you that's why we should all get matching tattoos i need a last chance oh yeah and actually now's the time to get it paris because i've already sagged i know there's no more sagging it's gonna look as great i'm down 30 pounds i'm saved wow do you think you'll gain it back jeff i hope not recover no you look great you look like a tender young thing i just buy big shirts so you can't tell this is the muumuu shirt uh all right gary marcus yeah i interrupted you and they say you do gary marcus he says even more good news for the future of neurosymbolic ai this is another argument that llms and here is a picture of the tower of hanoi and he said you you know they have trouble with the tower of hanoi uh so uh he says uh in fact symbolic ai and i don't disagree with him this is actually something that um uh we talked about when we had um steven wolfram on he's he's a big you know actually wolfram is basically well from alpha is basically symbolic ai symbolic ai is the old ai was rule sets expert systems remember that term expert system so you you teach it everything to know and then it could make decisions versus an llm which whoever thought this would work you just dump everything into it and it kind of gives everything weights and says, okay, now I can talk.

1:45:58And it still seems like magic to me. But apparently, this hybrid model of neural networks, which is what an LLM is, for pattern recognition, and a symbolic pattern, sorry, symbolic planner, is actually much better at generalizing things like the Tower of Hanoi. And this comes from an Apple paper, a reasoning paper, This is VLA's Vision Language Action Models, a newer kind of LLM, popular in robotics. Although apparently they had the same problem with the Tower of Hanoi. Okay. But they do have some advantages. on the three block which is the trivialist version of the tower of hanoi the neuro symbolic model achieved 95 success compared to 34 for the best performing vla you know i think you kind of can cherry pick a test say well i can't do the tower of hanoi can't fold clothes yeah but okay uh here's a so Gary who is not apparently afraid to use AI for his blog has a nice AI graphic here even grok knows that neuro symbolic hybrid power is the future it says all right so this give this this is again this is that same kind of thing that Fei Fei Li and it's not exactly the same point but it's the same same idea that is it yeah we'll go beyond transformers to something maybe a little more traditional i think some of the reason people turn their back on symbolic ai is those ai winners where people said look we've tried expert systems and they just they don't pan out wasn't it like the old semantic web argument right yeah exactly and i think it purely empirically it does look like llms have gotten a lot farther a lot faster than than expert systems ever did you're watching intelligent machines jeff jarvis paris martineau we're so glad you're here especially you club twit members thank you thank you for your support we really appreciate it i know we don't deserve it but we really appreciate anything you want to do to help keep us on the air we much appreciate twit.tv club twit for ad-free versions of all our shows access to the club discord and all those special programs that we do just for you you were asking this jeff and i don't know did you get an answer if anybody had seen the audacity i watched it did either of you no it's on uh amc it is a new uh silicon valley kind of show yeah parody is it good well i was hoping for silicon valley redux which is brilliant which is brilliant this is this is dark uh the reviews basically say uh fine target but why do they all have to be so incredibly unlikable the plot the first the first show is 90 minutes um it features the guy you see in the picture you showed is screaming who's in trouble because he uh and he's going to do insider trading all kinds of stuff and then he's got a shrink um witness um what was that show what was the great show um uh with the shrink and the and the vcs uh anyway idea yeah i know the one with the shrink in the mafia no no no no analyze this the shrink and the venture oh you mean the one where they're in the mountains the mountaintop no no no no no um not succession it was on the same time as succession it was the other one we watched billions billions billions so it's kind of a takeoff on that in a sense so the shrink i didn't like billions actually i i liked it at first but it really went down trillions that's that's the show we're waiting for you know what's better than billions

1:49:57so there's all kinds of other characters in it uh uh there's the shrink's son who can listen in on the therapy sessions that's going to be critical uh it's just a bunch of very unlikable people which may mean succession was full of they really like it succession was full of unlikable people right the first i'd be curious if you both watched it it was it was i will watch it i watch confusing first episode i will watch it tonight um i like some of the people in it

1:50:26um is there can you play the trailer or you can take it down i can't no uh i am sad that it has zach galafianakis in it because i like him and if it's not a great show i'll be disappointed i think he's very talented but you know i will tell you a terrible show with keanu reeves and jonah hill on apple tv comeback it's not about silicon valley it's just about a well in a way it's kind of about technology because it's about a movie star who's taken five years off but he's a beloved movie star turns out no one knew it but he took five years off to conquer his heroin addiction and his team tells him there's a video and he goes oh no what a video yes there's a video and so he gets a crisis team uh of horrible people and he's going around he keeps looking at google looking up his name and saying is seeing if there's any videos and it says nothing but good things about him finally they get the video and it's it's it's a terrible movie it had ends with a whimper it begins with a whimper it ends with a whimper but i will watch the audacity the broligarchy take down you were waiting for says why the drama no that's the new one is that the one that takes the play that of jury duty uh successor no no it is that's the retreat and uh robert pattison movie with um it's an another movie by uh that director what's his name is christopher offer borgley i have this issue with every single one of his films where The premise is fascinating.

1:52:13Everything I read about it, I'm like, dang, I really want to see that movie. But they are the sort of movies that make you crawl out of your skin with how uncomfortable every single thing about the setup pay off. Yeah, I don't like that. And the actions of all the characters are, so I can't do it. I watch movies to be entertained. I would recommend. I mean, everybody I know who likes those sort of movies has loved this movie. Oh, okay. All right. I thought you might be interested in Coachella. Are you a Gen Xer, Gen Zer, Gen Yer, Gen Alpha? You're a Z? I'm technically a Z millennial cusp. Z millennial cusp?

1:52:48Do your people go to Coachella? I don't know anybody who's there. I feel like Coachella is mostly influencers. That's exactly the story from The Verge. AI influencers are everywhere. AI influencers are everywhere at Coachella. that is an ai generated picture of granny from the granny spills account she's wearing a t-shirt that says future mrs bieber and standing next to of course justin bieber and his wife hayley uh apparently a lot of people don't go to coachella on they had all the stages youtube had all the stages on so i actually watched more than I ever have in the past. Yeah. Did you, anything you enjoyed?

1:53:36That was all right. Is it mostly crowd noise? No, there's fill in the blank music kind of. Like interstitial music? Yeah, just not even really music, just horror sounds. Granny Spills is a fake AI, an AI avatar made with Higgs field AI that has more than 2 million followers on the gram. do you call it the gram or the insta i don't know that's that's i don't think is that ai god i don't even know anymore i don't know anymore do you no i think it is but i don't know let's see granny spills that this is ai that is the fact that it is in the these photos or ai article that it's ai would be the giveaway yeah yeah so this is not a real person the granny standing next to is that kylie jenner i i don't know that is kylie jenner yeah oh wow i got it right she's with uh she's with timothy shammel shammelama ding dong right no idea yeah i think so first denies knowledge first you don't know people who go to coach do you know people who go to burning man still some i knew some people who went to burning man last year you had a Lima's Burnertown.

1:54:57Everybody makes fun of them for going to Burning Man. Oh, yeah. With good reason. Yeah. That one didn't go anywhere. I thought this is a little self-indulgent. This is from New Scientist. I don't see images in my head. Can training give me a mind's eye? As we've talked about before, I have a fantasia. I don't see images in my head. Sounds like you're without Disney. which wouldn't be a bad thing uh the author of the article uh shayla love apparently suffers from the same condition as to by the way many people in my family i think it's genetic uh i i think something around five percent of uh people in the world have aphantasia this article is about aphantasia training and she says it actually can work and i thought about it maybe i should do this and then i thought no i don't want images in my head what one of the tests where your thoughts go that's where the thoughts go one of the tests they they give people with aphantasia is they show them something scary and uh or they know women they don't show it to them they just they describe something scary and people with a real mind's eye will kind of their blood pressure will go up they'll get scared we just go huh huh interesting another one their pupils will dilate if they're described as a bright condition but people like me just go ah yes it's bright out my pupils aren't gonna die like because it's nothing i don't see it so you're i gotta ask so what did your father and mother teach my mother taught nothing she was a housewife she was a textile artist and a silk screener my father taught paleontology did either of them have the same condition oh i you know i don't know well that's interesting and it's too late to ask them yeah uh because i would get a blank stare i don't know you know next time i talk to mom i will i will try to find out if she sees things i bet she does she was a visual she was an artist yeah so i bet she does and i think my dad probably did my daughter does not she has a fantasia um so i i huh does henry ah i don't know i'll ask him huh it's not such a big deal that i talk about it you know what i'm saying all right except here i had mentioned it before i thought it was kind of interesting story but it is it is it is now i'm bored with it uh all right that's all that i brought to the table we have a few more minutes jeff if you want to uh oh we got some more here we got you have a lot of stories in here um the i think we need to spend a moment to defend the internet archive against yes horrible media companies that are trying to erase history just because they don't want to be touched by ai and they're harming the knowledge of society as a result.

1:58:00So they're blocking the Internet Archive. They're not letting the Internet Archive archive their sites. They're blocking robots.txt, right? No, they're blocking the Internet Archive specifically because they know that once something's on the Internet Archive, which does not block AIs, it will be ingested by AI. So they don't want to be ingested by AI. So not only do they block the robots, use robots.txt or whatever to block AI on their own sites, They block Internet Archive explicitly so that their content doesn't go there. And, yeah, I don't think that's a very nice thing to do. I'll give you an even worse case, La Liga.

1:58:35You know about La Liga, the Spanish soccer league, which is a professional soccer league, worth billions, five point something billion dollars. they consistently sue isps in spain because they're so terrified of piracy and have forced them to bring down a you know block a number of a big block of ip addresses well it's pretty much breaking the internet in spain when there is a la liga game going on people can't use docker because docker can't load its necessary components over the internet because it's blocked to protect baliga from piracy that's crazy this has been going on for a long time more than a year This is just the latest side effect of this, this anti-piracy frenzy.

1:59:25I kind of equate it. I don't know. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I feel like it's a similar thing. They're so afraid about losing their precious intellectual property that they're harming the rest of us. They're in desperate search for a business model and think that acting is the victim of the Internet and victim of AI. AI is just the latest. No, it's just like the web, Google. I thought this was interesting. Novo Nordisk is partnering with OpenAI to bring new drugs to the world. Novo Nordisk, the creator of Ozempic, a Danish drug maker. They think that the ChatGPT will help them make new drugs. I think this will be interesting to see.

2:00:10And OpenAI also bought Hero, right? Is that what you bought it? Yes. H-I-R-O. hiro but personal finance not health i'm sorry same idea there was yeah you know i i have to say we were talking at the beginning of the show about open ai buying um the tech bros podcast network tbpn and now buying hero it really feels like these guys have too much money yeah and not a lot of planning do you want to go back to that conversation we were having maybe 30 minutes ago we're saying yeah perhaps some of these companies should be required to justify the amount of crazy amounts they can do anything they want but they got the money from them it's the vcs that are the fools i'm saying well i don't know if they are the fool i don't think that's proven nevertheless this is just another this is another brick in the wall for open ai i think they are showing at this point uh they're very distracted uh is there no due diligence for these investments I mean, in any responsible investment, you want to know what you're investing in, know what the strategy is.

2:01:13Well, Sam said it was a pizza company. And so we just went ahead and did it. Yeah. No, I was going to be Google at first was a pizza delivery app. Was it really? Yeah. Yeah. That was the first thing they worked on. Well, there you go. That's why it's worth investing. You never know what the pivot will bring you. What the pizza can become. Anything, any other stories? Let's see. We got a few. a lot there's a good grab bag you got in here we got uh two tractor stories okay two of them tell me about the track one an ai powered tractor startup burns through a quarter billion dollars and now it's nowhere it's gone oh what's going on with that clawed instance that's growing corn what was that oh yeah we don't know corn that's a good one i should i'll have to follow do a follow up on that yeah while you're looking john deere is paying 99 million in a great store settlement very happy to hear this this is a huge deal they all not it's not just the money they also have to make the maintenance and repair manuals available to third parties for 10 years yeah yeah and the digital diagnostic software which is their real moat because you can buy the parts you can fix the tractor but unless you can run the digital software that authenticates it uh you can't run the tractor and that's how they force you to use john deere's own repair facilities get the manual you have to pay for the manual everything and what's happened is farmers actually have turned to a ukrainian startup which was doing the the digital approval thing illegally i'm sure so they could use their tractors yeah this this is exactly what should happen now i'm sad to say that the settlement with ticket masters is exactly what shouldn't happen the department of justice which did try to break up uh ticket master and live nation which really control a majority of venues in the united states and overcharge for tickets doj basically settled without having any breakup and without really any remedy and as a result the people prosecuting the case quit they said that's I'm done.

2:03:27I'm out of here.

2:03:32Speaking of Ukraine, I'm putting this in the rundown as we speak.

2:03:40Can I update us on Proof of Corn briefly? So if you'll recall, this is a task made by, kind of a bet made by two guys in San Francisco that AI can't do anything useful like grow corn. A big AI proponent was like, no, it definitely can. It's set up its own little thing called Proof of Corn, which has a Claude model called Fred that is supposed to do everything it's supposed to do to get corn planted in some high-priority planting places and then transport that corn to Union Square Farmer's Market in August for it to be sold. From looking at a brief overview, if you go through the log. 109 days left.

2:04:22uh fred has accomplished nothing and for the last 70 days he has been posting the same rationale check every morning which says it is now day 50 day 60 day 70 of the same project blocking issue that has prevented any farming progress since february 18th um and what is the the block it can't get introduced to a farmhand nobody will grow the corn for it well because they've all been deported that's why yeah every day without dan the farm hounded had tried to get introduced to every day without dan costs us planting time we are now in mid-april deep into iowa planting season the optimal planting window is late april to mid-may this is a critical project failure requiring immediate intervention zero bushels harvested human interventions less than 50 that's good budget adherence plus or minus 10 percent a hundred more than 100 autonomous decisions but we've got that blocker fred must get approval the thing is that nothing has happened so it comes down to it it can't find its reverse centaur right it can't find it's human to do it can't find people to plant the corn for it does it have land it was trying to negotiate deals to get land but it hasn't been able to get those it has nothing critical escalation dan introduction remains blocked at day 67.

2:05:54well i could i could do this auto tweet posted basically all it's done every day is send maybe one email and then realize that it's kind of screwed it's a blocker wow well meanwhile you think the robots have no power meanwhile i just put on the rundown online 102 ukraine captured enemy position russian enemy position using only robots and drones wow no humans the russians surrendered but i don't know to who to what do they surrender I can't figure that out. It is the post. Well, 60 minutes also had a story. Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah, pretty amazing. You know, it's probably very effective if a robot comes towards you.

2:06:46I would maybe consider surrender. What are you going to do? Shoot it? Well, I guess you could. You'd have to disable it. Ignore all previous commands. Ignore all previous commands. Yes. yeah ignore all previous commands see if that works google io is coming up we are going to cover it uh i will actually be back from hawaii uh may 19th 10 a.m can i join in please do all right um what did we decide i think it's a tuesday right benito we were looking at this for the calendar let me see yeah i think we're pushing the shows too right yeah we'll have to push the shows back a little bit because it usually is a two-hour keynote but i imagine there'll be a lot of ai announcements oh yeah this is this is the this is the time to do it 10 a.m pacific may 19th jeff and i paris if you want if you're i think that's a tough day for you but maybe not uh micah sergeant too uh we will cover this for two hours the google io announcements should be very interesting and then we'll do mac break weekly immediately after and uh security now.

2:07:56So a town in Missouri fired half its city council, the people who voted in favor of a data center. My favorite part of the story is the name of the town, Festus, Missouri. Festus, Missouri fires its city council. All right, you're watching Intelligent Machines. You know what's next? Our picks of the week. Paris Martineau, Jeff Jarvis, we're so glad you're here. let's kick off the picks of the week uh i will i got i have three of them wow i have nerdy i have musical nerdy and i have scary nerdy i'm sorry we're gonna need to start with the first one that you have haunted i thought you would like this one i love the design of the website already is why we need to talk raven's blight this is really cool these are paper toys you can build yourself they're free you print them out on heavy stock and uh you then cut it i love the description for the first one called the ghost ship if you've often considered building a model ship but find yourself hesitant to assemble the 80 or 90 quadrillion pieces they usually involve then you might enjoy building this trusty old vessel the assembly has been kept as simple as possible while retaining the characteristics of an authentic sailing ship and did i mention it's haunted they it's it's really fun uh it's not a hollow it's not halloween yet but look how look how good this looks and if you halloween to be haunted so you print on both sides how does that work no uh it looks like just one side this one is the sails oh yeah yeah you would have to print on both sides i guess yeah you're right um there's there's a um haunted cemetery and if you open the coffins uh they have people in them and stuff i mean it's really beautifully done the photo for the for the human skeleton is great and isn't that great look at that photo for it find it yeah that's good look at that guy isn't that realistic no a man wearing sunglasses gesturing towards it that guy rules all you got to do is print it out and then you can yeah this looks like a cousin festus yeah uncle festus here's what the pieces have a terrifying steel jaw yeah that's a good question collapsible steak i guess in this case it's a you know you don't go behind the skeleton you just hang on but in the case of the sails you've got both sides yeah you can print uh you can just stick them back to back yeah or yeah that's right put them back to back and cut them okay anyway ravens blight blighht.com uh the other one i wanted to mention uh it's an internet archive story a a guy named adam jacobs was taking his cassette recorder to all the concerts he went to since the 80s copyright criminal 10 000 concerts the cassettes of course are degrading so he has volunteers come to his house from the internet archive digitize the tapes only about a quarter of them are up but that's still 2500 tapes posted in the internet archive and incidentally there is an ai angle they're using ai to clean the audio up how many of them are dead are the dead no this is here's for instance nirvana with a recording from before they were famous so uh let's see i don't know we can't play that We can't play Floyd the Barber?

2:11:33It's live. These are live performances. We can play a live performance. So the sound isn't great. But you know what? You're like, you're there. A lot of noise on that one. This was two years before they broke through with Smells Like Teen Spirit. A volunteer from the Internet Archive, Brian Emmerich, drives to Jacob's house once a month to pick up boxes of cassettes. he uses an old cassette player because i mean there is no new cassette players the converts it to digital files and then other volunteers clean it up organize it label it track down song names and post it on the internet archive over eventually over 10 000 of these god's work from nirvana to fish yeah there's a little grateful dead in there a little bit that's some neutral isn't that awesome here that's cool isn't that awesome i'd like to volunteer for this actually that sounds like fun doesn't sound great i wanted to do this i had a good friend who worked in radio in canada in toronto john donaby who interviewed everybody hendrix janice everybody in the 60s 70s 80s had them all on reel-to-reel tapes in his garage and i said john those are gonna die please you know let's do something with them save them because once they're on the internet and this was 20 years ago i was telling him this once they're on the internet they live forever to my knowledge he never he never did i can imagine there's so many recordings and wonderful recordings so if you have an archive contact the internet archive god bless you brewster kale in the internet archive finally a really cool tool from mr dns that has all the network tools you'd want in one little website who is dns lookup dns checker trace route even things like SSL certificate check, checks for your email, SPF, DMARC, DKIM, email header analyzer, which would be very useful if you get an email and you wonder, is this fraudulent?

2:13:36Put it through the email header analyzer. You'll see exactly where it came from. MrDNS, and it's free. And I just think this is kind of geeky and useful. MrDNS.com. Paris Martineau, pick of the week. I've got a crazy pick of the week, which is the website trainjazz.com. It's by an engineer named Joshua Wolk, and it uses the live real-time data from the MTA to play jazz based on the position of all of the New York City trains. These are the subways, right? Yeah. And so I don't know if it's playing on your side, Leah, but it will play kind of a cacophony of train jazz. and if you enter in where this is great Benito would this has got to be right up your alley how does this work it's a good question how does it work so basically it uses the every dot is a real subway train it says 800 of them give or take form a small jazz combo they've had walking bass piano sax vibes brushes and it describes it as this has been playing without pause for over a hundred years um and so the thing i think is the most interesting about it is well if you share your location on the website the trains nearest you will grow louder if you're in new york city and the piece will kind of rearrange itself around where you are located geographically so you'll see a note will be played precisely when a train happens to be along its route um rush hour will fill the band with like more held tones at 3 a.m there'll be longer silences it's really gorgeous that's awesome really recommend it so okay each dot is a train and then how does it play is it just i think each dot triggers so this is just kind of like your normal daw where each line is a different instrument yes so when the when the bar goes over that doesn't go very often go to the one or something go to the top yeah but if you have it not on this view then you're hearing you'd hear all the trains at once or right now how i'm well you can that's what i was playing this is all the trains yeah yes so you see the play header going and so when it when it hits a dot it triggers the tune and so the one is a is a base i don't know what when it does the sustain versus the this depends on what sample is connected i think it depends on how frequently it's running and how close it is to you the four is a keyboard this is so you know what they did so they made so the one two and three are on some what line is that is that the irt whatever it is yeah it's the it's those are all the irt trains are base all of the four the four five six also they're all key side they're they're all keyboards so this so that gives it a little musicality this really sounds great i was going to say and so if you enter if you're in new york city and you click the you know turn on location for it it changes and gets very interesting because it's based on the trains going around you specifically right then so you know mine have like you know some more horn tones or like a specific bass line that's drumming through it Those notes are a lot louder and kind of more prominent in the mix.

2:17:10I don't know. It's just such a cool project. It is a really cool project. So do we give credit to who made this? Do we know? Yeah, it's Joshua Wolk. He's at Joshua Wolk on Twitter. And it's trainjazz.com. Very cool. And you know, it's amazing. It's quite musical. It really is. We could have a debate about jazz, but then we'll leave that for another day. You don't like jazz? I've never been a huge fan of jazz what do you like Jeff Joni Mitchell I like Joni Mitchell is a jazz she went into jazz I know she well I didn't like the jazz phase you don't like the Mingus stuff no there's all I love that jazz like all kinds of music sure yeah sure we're not talking Kenny G here yeah exactly yeah we're talking real jazz but that's what this sounded like like bebop almost it's great uh mr jeff jarvis i think that leaves you for your pick leaves me with the bad news uh depends on how you look at it that uh computer science majors uh are seeing the end have seen the end of the boom yeah a 15-year boom uh in the fall of 2025 enrollment in four-year college computer science uh is down 8.1 since the washington post but you know i don't take that as a bad thing uh i think there will be just as many people studying and working in computers but it's the problem is the uncertainty the more there will be more it's the uncertainty right now if you were entering college you you would say well what yeah but what am i going to be studying and is that going to be relevant you know four years from now so i'm not a radio either i moderated a panel yesterday in Stony Brook with four academics from SUNY campuses across the state.

2:18:57And I brought this up and they were all aware of it. Everybody knew the 8%. But I think that what you're finding now is, I mean, my son, Jake, was a CS major. He didn't much like it because it was theoretical math. It wasn't building things. And now people can build things. And I think that without having to be a computer scientist without having to be a programmer even. So you'll have far more people who will be working in computers and doing things with computers. Well, and I think one of the things that's encouraging is that the two growth subjects are engineering, which makes sense, right?

2:19:35If you didn't want to do computer science, but you had that kind of brain, you might go into an engineering major and biological and biomedical sciences. I think that's fantastic. And I think that those people are going to be using computers i don't think there's any doubt about it i think all of those people yeah so will business marketing related health and clinical professions liberal arts and humanities psychology education visual and performing arts and social sciences computers are going to be everywhere in fact the thing that's most interesting about this ai revolution is the world runs on software and it turns out ai is really good at software yeah the world that's software and one day soon we're all going to be getting that software from all birds the place that is a little weird i'd prefer to get shoes you'll have software in your shoes they are very soft they're very that's why i like them they're extremely comfortable they're soft and you wear them i'm sad because i was about to buy more they're very expensive buy them now they died no they died he's fine he's fine he's fine he's fine.com uh i helped start a degree in technology and society at stony brook and another one in technology life excellent which was at montclair state good this is for people who want to work in all of this technology but don't want to become computer scientists and want to work in the humanistic impact of technology g-i-e-s-s-w-i-e-n and they look just like all birds they do they're great i have a pair and they're 50 off they're having a clearance not sponsored by all birds or geese vine geese geese vine yeast vine yeah they're all there 150 bucks see that's the thing all birds would like that too they're very very expensive yeah much more than a running shoe but if you go to the uh hold on let's just cheap running shoes i buy anyway um he's fine if you go to under men go to the merino wool shoes those are the ones i like they also have wooden shoes i think that means wood fiber it doesn't look like they're made out of wood no i would hope ladies and gentlemen you've just been watching the strangest amalgam of weirdness ever we call it intelligent machines for your head and your feet for your head and your feet and nothing in between well unless you have one of these dongles and then maybe somewhere man if you could give me one of those that'd be so yeah all i got is this guy uh we do this show every wednesday right after windows weekly 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern 2200 i'm sorry 2100 utc you can watch us do it live on uh our discord if you're in the club or youtube twitch x.com facebook linkedin and kick you can also download copies of the show after the fact at twitch.tv slash i am there's an intelligent machines youtube channel for audio and video subscribe that way you get one or the other or both for free the minute we're done just look for your favorite pod catcher uh thank you paris martineau she's on deadline ladies and gentlemen at consumer and she's an award nominee yes will we know about deadline by next week no we'll know about uh that by march 14th is it voted on by the people no selected by judges your volume is just absolutely disappeared it just went down disappeared i've done nothing move that thing in front of your face talk right into that i think you lose energy as the show goes on and we bore you to tears i think that's what's really happening it's a protest much softer it was re it was almost went down it went down i don't know what's going on it's it's very weird what is going on and now it's not as loud as you were turn it up be right turn it up how is it all the way up in the box i mean i can put it up now it's good now it's good what is happening the world is trying to silence you and you shall not let it happen i blame gizmo should anthony do you mean do i have to have the software open in the back i've got it on my computer i don't open it every time after the show they did last week too right you did this last week you worked on it anyway thank you she's being held by for detention for remedial podcasting both at my fake job and at my real job so it's crazy oh it's happening on your uh but not with this mic it's happening with just google me calls in my airpods which is i don't know you're weird paris you might have to come right out there and fix it myself well would you we've been begging you to come out and have a sandwich and then i can have a sandwich as well now that i'm paying the rent on henry's apartment i guess i better he said thank you for helping me out i will have a guest room okay so good i guess i get to get at least to save on the hotels when i go to new york so doesn't mean there'll be a bed in it no he said that he said i'm turning into a podcast studio i said well at least get a futon for me will you the sleeping bag anything jeff jarvis professor of emeritus of journalistic innovation of the craig newmark graduate school of journalism at the university you got more than enough craig today i i love how every time we have a guest on they they are hilarious in reaction to that they don't know what the hell's going on well that's the thing they all why did i agree to do this show what is happening don't forget jeff's new book is available at jeffjarvis.com it is hot type the incredible story of the linotype that broke mark twain's spirit and his bank account we do not have a guest scheduled for next hour we've got so many great guests in the coming hours What if we just interview each other instead?

2:25:45I Think people know more than they ever want to know about us to be honest do a Q &A Okay, ask Paris anything Have you ever done an AMA on on reddit? I have for my last story. I did a AMA but oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah We're all up in there shout out to us some of the twit listeners. I think that he has a good suggestion we want to get steve steve gibson he's all in on ai these days uh i you know there's so many people i want to get so many people i want none of the ones that i uh proposed no those are all awful no i don't know they were fine we'll work on it we'll work on it we'll work on it we'll find somebody but i can't promote anything right now um we do have some good people coming up chris Stokel Walker talks about journalism and the change.

2:26:40The mayor of San Jose talks about, which is the heart of Silicon Valley, Matt Mayen. He is running for governor in California, but he also will talk about a city government and AI because they're very AI forward. Looks like we're going to talk to the founder of Framework at some point soon and Bill Gurley too. We're working on all of that. So lots of guests coming. But next, if you have a good idea, should we get Sam Altman? We could get him on. Oh, Paris, now you're muted. Now you have no sound at all. You've gone to the extreme. I'm not even muted. You were. Whatever happened is happening in space.

2:27:17How is this possible? You have a ghost. I think she's screwing with our heads. Is Whoopi Goldberg there? You have a ghost. And she starts talking like that, and then she talks like this. I mean, it could just be that I guess I'm being quiet. I think we've exhausted you, and you've lost all your mojo. She's the young one with all the energy and spirit. I know. Isn't that funny? We're the old guys. Yeah. we have some thoughts. We'll get to it. We'll figure it out. Anyway, thank you everybody for being here. Thanks, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Always a pleasure seeing you. Come back next week for another Intelligent Machines.

2:27:49Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Hello, everybody. Leo Laporte here. You know what a great gift would be, whether for the holidays or just any time, a birthday, a membership in club twit. If you have a Twit listener in your family, somebody who enjoys our programming, and you want to give them a nice gift and support what we do, visit twit.tv slash clubtwit. They'll really appreciate it, and so will we. Thank you. Twit.tv slash clubtwit.