IM 879: Alex Karp, Alex Karp, Alex Karp - Beyond Fable: Are Open Models Ready for Prime Time?

31:27Yeah. We're almost out of time. I'm thrilled that we can talk to you, Rafi Krikorian. I'm also thrilled that you did not, you survived your Tesla crash to write this, the Mozilla State of Open Source AI, which is available at stateofopensource.ai. I gave you the wrong URL out earlier. People should download it. They should read it. You can read on the web. What would you like to see next? What do you want to have happen as a result of this report? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's a whole alliance of people who are building to the open, right? Like Clem from Hugging Face just tweeted, I think this morning, that he's going to show up in San Francisco and they should do a rally on open source.

32:09So I think we need like those. I'd love to see the demographics of that rally. They're all going to look like me with like a white in their beard. and stuff like that. It's going to be a lot of men in polos, but it's going to be a really interesting mix of polos. Just don't carry tiki torches and you'll be over. But I think that, I think we need more and more people. Like we need more proof points, we need more examples, and we need more learnings, right? Like all these companies are deploying large amounts of like what they call FDEs, right? Like the forward deployed engineers that's getting their software out and embedded into Fortune 500 companies left and right.

32:46So we need the counter. We need the alternative. We need the third way to show up here. And I think the technology is ready. So now it's a deployment problem. So now we need people to trust it enough to deploy it. Is there revenue needed for the development of more open source models? Yeah, I mean, I think the amount of money that these companies are going to spend on marketing this year alone dwarfs the entire money in Mozilla's endowment, right? So I think, yes, money is always helpful. But at the same time, we're seeing people even like A16Z. We're seeing investors throwing lots of money toward open source right now.

33:21But it's unfocused. It's all scattered. We just need to actually, we need the lamp stack of AI. We need that kind of rallying of we're coming together to build software that can be deployed like an Ubuntu or deployed like a Linux or things like that. I think, honestly, we also need a lot of smart innovators to work on ways to get models smaller, to work on ways to get models smarter, to think about models that slice up the problem space so that they do specific things well. And I think that's going to take – this is what's interesting. And I think it happens every time there's new technology, people talk about job loss.

34:01But I think they're going to be, in fact, many jobs created for people who are smart about this and can create something of real value. Models for mob. Yeah, I'm very grateful to Mozilla. I use Firefox and I think if it weren't for Mozilla, we would be in a one browser world. I think open source really is super important. And I think open white models are equally important. And as you say in your report, we bet on open the first time, open one. Together we can do it again. Go ahead. So I don't know if you had a busy week. I don't know if you had a chance to read Demis' office's proposal for regulatory model.

34:41So in summary, he's proposing a private public FINRA and that there would be a 30-day period of judging. and um this always comes from the people who are behind by the way that too yes um slow down let us catch up uh well but we'll get to i presume later the anthropic commercial uh which is really interesting where with the gravestones yeah the gravestones where they're also saying uh no stop right now we're ahead let's just stop everything else right now because We're there, right? And, but I wonder, so I'm on another show. I was talking about this with Jason Howell earlier today. And as I thought about it, I'm nervous about government regulation of AI.

35:32I'm nervous about this FINRA thing, still the people who now have the power establishing it. And so the fact that you came in and you judged AIs, You judge them against a, you know, how good are they? Do you also come in at some point and delve into the how dangerous are they? Or because we need independent voices to judge AI on quality and risk and so on, rather than, I think, thinking that we can create some officialdom to do it. And I think to empower Mozilla and academics to do it, universities to do it, is, to my mind, the best way forward. So long-winded, Joe Scarborough-like question to ask, what do you think about the various regulatory schemes that are being presented these days, pluses, minuses, and alternatives?

36:28No, I mean, I think we're all being distracted again by what's at the true edge and frontier. So I don't think for most businesses, the true edge and frontiers would actually matter. So I think it's in the best interest of all these companies for us to be talking about what is the Ferrari look like. And I'm saying that most of us only need a Camry or a Toyota kind of thing. So I think we need to separate those conversations and allow us to go work on the 80 % use cases and allow people to actually build real businesses and actually get real diffusion of these type of technologies. and then we can have a conversation about what the frontier governance looks like.

37:04I still maintain that open makes a lot of sense there because then we can have conversation about what the open guardrails look like. We have questions about like, what does open permission systems look like? Like, I don't want to be in a world where like the decisions for the entire world are controlled by what, seven Silicon Valley CEOs plus one person in the White House. Like that seems crazy to me. But like, if we can have a way that actually have what you're calling like an open education system with open guardrails and open techniques around management of it, I think that's a way better world for us to live in.

37:33I'll read from the state of opensource.ai webpage. Our belief is simple. The path forward is competition and interoperability. We believe in a world of many models, standard ways to plug them together, and the freedom to walk away from any vendor at any time. I think that's the world we want, this world we've been advocating for on this show pretty much from day one. Rafi, thank you so much for your work. Such a pleasure. We appreciate it. Thank you for joining us on Intelligent Machines. We'll be right back after this. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Gusto. We'll have more in just a bit, by the way.

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39:40Try Gusto today. Gusto.com slash machines and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at Gusto.com slash machines. One more time. Gusto.com slash machines. Make sure you use that URL. That's how you support the show so that they know that you saw it here. Gusto.com slash machines. machines we thank Gusto so much for their support of intelligent machines well this was as always a huge week in AI with lots of news I guess we should start with Apple suing open AI this is the most public breach they were partners uh oh chat GPT was the thing Siri went to when it couldn't handle your question uh it still does but I have a feeling that those days may be numbered apple alleges that a 24-year executive he was at apple 24 years vice president at the design oh he wasn't 24 years old he was 24 years in there perisher i was about to say not 20 i thought you meant 24 year old as well but no no 24 year executive 24 year 10.

40:53no fool supposedly he but he was a member of Apple's, it was executive suite. He was their chief hardware officer. He had been involved in the design of the iPhone, the AirPods, the Apple watch. I mean, he was so trusted that when he decided in 2024 to leave Apple, Apple said, good, you could take your time. We want you to train your successor. No hurry. We're not, you don't have to, you know, we're not going to lock the doors behind you. Maybe they should have, at least according to, this a lawsuit and again this is apple's side of the story open ai says we don't steal we don't steal uh we don't need to we don't we don't do that um of course if you uh if you don't trust open ai and i think there is kind of this general thought especially after the ronan ferrer article in the new yorker that maybe sam altman is a little bit slippery uh this might just play right into that narrative um they accuse open ai accuses um apple accuses open ai of uh well so i give you the scenario tang tang left in 2024 key uh and uh another member of the apple technical staff went to io which johnny ive you may remember him as apple's head designer for many years had started went to work for them and then a couple of years later you may also remember sam altman and johnny ive walking into a bar looking like they were about to announce a pregnancy yeah uh i have the news for you uh 6.2 billion dollar acquisition of io products along with that comes tang tan by the way we should mention johnny ive is not mentioned anywhere in this lawsuit that's actually kind of interesting isn't it they say that tan when he left brought company secrets with him and emailed Apple suppliers and said hey I might have a job for you told job candidates interviewing people are still working for Apple to bring actual parts from Apple to the interview to To which the job candidates repeatedly said, we're allowed to do that?

43:03Well, at least one did. Which I think is. One did, yeah. I think the suspicion is that that's the guy who went to Apple and said, hey, you know what they're doing here. Because I think this is what happened. I mean, the amount of details in this suggests to me more than one person turns to Apple. Yeah, but it's all Apple's point of view. Yeah. So this is not, this is. But Apple is also notorious about kind of collecting this sort of information slowly, methodically, and then waiting so that they can strike. Well, they claim that they sent a cease and desist order to OpenAI. OpenAI says, yeah, okay, your outside lawyer sent it to Wang, but he should have sent it to Chang.

43:45And because he sent it to the wrong guy, we didn't reply. With the Chinese name. You were confused. This story is amazing. It was a 41-page complaint, which reads like a great novel. I mean, you got to read the pleading. It's just fascinating. Let's not forget Apple was the company that said it. It's one of those complaints that's classically, that's written for a mass audience. Sorry to interrupt you. Well, that's an important point because that's an interesting question is why, Apple? What's going on here? Are you trying to stop OpenAI from making a hardware product, which everybody says they're about to do?

44:22In fact, we'll talk about what the leak says that product will be this year. Are you trying to put the kibosh on their IPO, which is perhaps imminent? What's going on? Or maybe you're just really hurt. I mean, Apple is kind of famously, if not litigious, they're famously maniacal in a way. vindictive and maniacal in a way that borders on litigious, regardless of whether it happens in the actual court of law. Like this sort of, the amount of details and tenor of this complaint wasn't surprising to me as someone who's just tangentially followed Apple book in and out of the courtroom. Let's also remember Gizmodo and sending Apple cops after a reporter who came across a stray iPhone.

45:15Right. What a story. The thing that's of interest is, of course, everything that Apple's asserting here can be proven or disproven in court with discovery. You know, discovery is always a double-edged sword, as Apple learned in the Epic lawsuit, that sometimes stuff gets revealed in your own secrets that you maybe don't want revealed. But yesterday we were talking about this on MacBreak Weekly. There was some speculation that I think Andy Yanako said they want to turn open AI upside down and shake them really hard. Yeah. And I think the thing that's just important to emphasize here is that Apple, more so than any tech company I know of, is maniacal when it comes to leakers.

46:00They will follow the ghost of a leaker to the end of the earth, and they'd write a 40-page complaint about it just to try and stop people from following in their footsteps. They're one of the few companies in Silicon Valley that still to this day, even in an age of constant leaks and inside reporting, will really go after people for it. So I think that this being OpenAI, of course, they're going to turn what was already something up to 10. They're going to turn it up to 22. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. You know, it could, there's a number of scenarios. It could go on for five years.

46:45I mean, it could really not harm OpenAI's hardware efforts because it could go on for so long that by the time Apple got a judgment, uh open ai would be on the eighth generation of whatever they're doing well or does it does it i mean the rumors we're going to get to about opening eye i think sounds like a really dumb product are might this have affected their rollout that oh we were going to come up with a phone but bad timing let's come up with something stupid instead remember there's no there's no weight of law here this is just a lawsuit a complaint anybody can say anything in a complaint people I will also say that.

47:22For doing, from doing anything. One of the people who left fairly recently for open AI is the head of glasses at Apple. So open AI has the guy who was working for years. I I'm sure on Apple eyewear on specs does, you know, open AI's first product. The rumor is, will be a wireless speaker, no screen, just a speaker. I don't know if Apple would be threatened in any way by that. It's unclear. I mean, I think you're right, Paris, that really Apple is doing what Apple does, which is they hate it when there's leaks like this. They think that they were wronged badly, and they may just simply be pursuing it because that's what you do.

48:04They may not have any motive, any subtext. I mean, I think it could be both. I think they could have subtext. subtext. I think they could be a bit annoyed at OpenAI kind of encroaching on the cool, slick tech company role that Apple has historically held. But I don't think they'll stop them. I mean, is there any reason why it would stop Johnny Ive from continuing to go ahead with whatever he's working on? Well, I guess I don't know, but instinctively, I'm not sure that Johnny Ive is who they're trying to get back at in this. I think that they're trying to stop general brain drain and the sort of leaks.

48:43Maybe a message for current employees. Oh, no, it's entirely for current employees, I would say. It's for current employees. It's for people who have left that are thinking about leaking information about supply chain. Basically, any of the inner working of a company like Apple, they're incredibly protective over, much like every company. But Apple really wants to defend that in either court or in kind of private, like pre-litigation demand letters. They have kind of, they've just taken the hardline approach. The best way to stop any of this information from leaking out is to deter people. They're doing the stick rather than the carrot.

49:24So in that case, it wouldn't, OpenAI has hired 400 Apple employees over the last. I mean, I'm sure that's bad. No, I bet that's actually a consideration. I'm sure more have gone to Meta. Right? Meta's doing the same thing. I mean, a bunch have gone everywhere. But I think part of it is them trying to be like, hey, all of you Apple employees or everybody else. No more. I mean, both to the people who are going there, but to the ones currently there, they're like, don't even think about thinking about telling them a secret code name of a project you worked on. Or introducing them to a supply. I imagine the patting down employees at the spaceship door.

49:56I mean, that is the level. Yeah, that's like the level of stuff they do. They already do that. So you can't legally stop somebody from taking what's in here, their brain. You can stop them from sharing it. Yeah, you definitely can stop them from sharing it. Those are trade secrets. Yeah, that's... Not in the state of California you can't anyway. No, you definitely... That's what this whole thing is about. Okay, that's an interesting question. So you can't bring parts with you. You can't bring documents with you. You can't bring your supply chain connection. connections that are from apple if you yeah or if you know that apple is going to next build a drone airplane you can't tell anyone that that's you you sign an nda to that effect well that's a different matter so you may have an nda with apple every single one of these employees has an nda that's what they're talking about yeah yeah but this isn't a lawsuit over an nda Yeah, but the point of this lawsuit is to acutely remind all of the employees that, hey, if you are trying to break your NDA, we are watching, we are ever vigilant, and we will come after you.

51:10We will define trade secrets broadly. Yeah, this is something that I've seen a lot with other journalists that cover Apple. Apple is one of the companies that every once in a while you'll have a kind of big scandal or a big in tech journalism world where you'll see Apple suing somebody for leaking to a journalist and they've tracked it through some complicated array of a work phone pinged there, a computer connected to this, and will try and come after a leaker there and then get the journalists all of their other Apple sources. So partly because of Apple, one thing that's changed a lot in California is this kind of enforceable NDA.

51:53For instance, we no longer allow non-competes in California. They are allowed in other states of the union, but you can't do it in California. And the thinking is, Steve Jobs has always done this. The idea is a company could use these kinds of agreements to keep employees from looking for jobs elsewhere and improving their lot, getting a better pay package. And Steve Jobs was famous for trying to thwart that. And because of that, I think the state of California cracked down on a lot of it. NDAs are enforceable, particularly with trade. I'm looking at a law firm now with trade secrets, recipes, algorithms, or manufacturing processes, customer and supplier information, intellectual property and proprietary business strategies.

52:35But the agreements have to be very specific about what you can and can't disclose. There needs to be compensation, an exchange for signing an employment or bonus. There are a variety of laws in California. There is a lot of things that are not enforceable in California. Oh, am I aware? It's much more complicated than it used to be. part of my job is uh being whenever i whenever i was talking to tech employees being able to explain to them what is and what is oh you know yeah so uh apple's job is not maybe as easy as uh as this pleading would but it's made easier by the fact that what they're trying to do is just scare people yeah that and that is so easy they've completely accomplished that i the question is have they thwarted open ai in their uh plans for the next few years maybe they've hurt them reputationally you know that may well be true but i don't think if they have a hardware product they're about to release or plan to release in the next few years it's just going to stop them on that i mean yeah i don't think that anything is going to stop what opening eye is right no you could always i think a lot of it you know you saw the back and forth between elon musk and uh uh sam altman over how untrustworthy each of them was uh it was actually hysterical over the weekend uh you know elon elon said you see this guy's a liar and a cheat i told you so even though his case was thrown out uh and to which sam altman said yeah have you looked at uh what grok is doing to people we mentioned that we'll get to that in just a little bit uh you also mentioned and i think we should talk about this a little bit uh demis hasibis is it's time for a global ai watchdog led by the u.s man i what do you think i don't know if i like this idea at all it's public private it's a finra he says that that you should take uh that the high-end frontier models should have been ready to say is the financial industry regulatory authority which has both independent experts and government and government right so it's private public a 30-day period of inspection which to me is bad for open source that's a real problem but then he's saying well but only the really important models the other one others can be accepted but who gets to define that exactly um and also says this is because artificial intelligence is only a few short years away which is you mean agi yeah this is silly right and so you've got you got him proposing that from the google perspective politico had a story today about how um anthropic is going state by state with the same law trying to get regulatory capture they want a kind of a federalist regulation that all the states agree on a single law that everyone agrees on and then has sebus has been lobbying the trump administration for this as has sam altman has been lobbying congress on this it feels like regulatory capture it really does and i was talking about this jason earlier today on the inside because he's you know he asked it should something be done and i said but but but what what we don't know what it is it's too soon to know what it is you're going after?

55:57What are the harms? What are the causes? And to think that there's this one body that can then tell, okay, it's taken care of now. Are we looking at privacy, at copyright, at childhood harm, at environment, at equity, at discrimination? What? What are they regulating? what is what is it you're regulating for uh extinction of humanity yes i admit my inclination which i know is wrong is just let it all be and let's just see what happens but i understand the fear of what could happen and why people feel like we need to write yeah but if the discussion is on that basis of destroying mankind then it's all stupid right and and the problem is a lot of discussion is there it's not on the sarcastic parrots you're going to hurt the environment what if it's not destroying mankind but what if the discussion is destroying the the world we live in because of all the security flaws that will be revealed by these tip-top models i mean that's more concrete that's not agi uh it's what it's what unfortunately anthropic brought upon us with their but leo isn't that inevitable it's just a question of when well that's what that's what our friend alex stamos would say is all these models can do this and And there's no way to stop them.

57:18And it may make things more secure. And it does in the long run. Also, I'm just not super convinced about the idea that, yeah, there's going to be a day sometime soon where a switch will flip and suddenly everything will be super insecure because some random model is suddenly accessible. Well, yesterday, Microsoft issued its patch Tuesday. Yeah, it issued a patch. The largest it had ever had. It's different than suddenly everyone everywhere is being hacked. Patches are good. Patches are good. Except that these bugs were found by AI. Yeah, they weren't exploited before. Yeah. No, no, there were three zero days.

58:00And I think it's safe to say they didn't get them all. Right? Okay, well, if this technology is out there already, because it's clearly out there enough that they're patching it with Fable, and I assume that Fable isn't unique in the entire world. We don't actually know what they're using. They say they're using anything, which is a harness for other models. And I think it's probably - Whatever they're using is not probably unique. Or yeah, whatever they're using is not unique to those Microsoft engineers. Why has every website in the world not been taken down then? because I just, I feel like nothing is going to be as dire as the doomers say it will.

58:41Yeah, I think there is a flood of zero days. Are you kidding? So you're on the doomer world now. Well, I think right now we're seeing more security floods than we've ever seen before. Well, Leo's on the, this is more powerful than you know world. No, no, no. With the question that is timing. I'm not making any assertion at all. I'm simply pointing out that there are more security flaws being exploited. There are more zero days now than ever before. I don't know where they're coming from. But in timing, can they get found before the bad guys find them if the tools are in these hands, right? Is there not a possibility that this is good, to Paris's point, because they can be discovered before they get exploited and fixed?

59:26Isn't that the optimistic way to look at it? Well, you know, Steve had an interesting point yesterday, and it's maybe debatable. Certainly, Richard Campbell and Paul Thorat debated it today on Windows Weekly. Steve said, this is good. You're going to see a curve of Microsoft's patches. By the way, they did more than 1 ,000 fixes this month. The Microsoft's patches will suddenly go up, up, up, up, up. And then as things get fixed, they'll go down, down, down, down. He said, within a year, you're going to see almost no flaws. to which Richard said, well, here's the thing. Those thousand flaws, Microsoft's not looking at the entire Windows code base.

1:00:07They can't. It's too big. They're going section by section. It's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. They may never get to zero flaws. By the time they finish, they're going to have to start over. They discounted the idea that we could fix everything and make it all so good that there's no more flaws. i'm more on the steve gibson camp i think i don't know how soon it's going to happen but i think at some point a lot of the bugs if you look at the flaws that microsoft fixed yesterday most of them were memory fixes the kinds of mistakes programmers make but ais don't make um and i think it's i mean but but it but then there's the question well is that it so so go back to the question if you have if you if if demis wins and you have a finra what is it looking for is it just that is it just vulnerability what what what here's the risk the thumb on the scale yeah that's the risk well if you had a legitimate agency i'm i'm i'm let's assume legitimacy first of all fantasy world where we can have legitimate agencies the first fantasy is there is some measurable way to look at an AI model and say, this is good, this is bad.

1:01:19I don't know if that technology exists. So that's problem number one is who's going to, what metrics were you going to, we can't even do benchmarks. We can't even make a model that can't be jailbroken. So, but some, let's assume fantasy number one, there's some body that can come up with some thing that can find flaws in the AIs and can do it in 30 days, by the way, and do it with such accuracy that when the AI is released on day 31, it's safe, everybody. Boy, that's a lot of fantasies. And everybody has faith in the FINRA. And there's nobody like, I don't know, let's say the president of the United States who might say, you know, I really don't.

1:02:00You know, Pete Hegseth tells me anthropic is a supply chain risk. Let's not let that one out. I think this is a non-starter personally. But then you also get the weird thing out of the White House, and I didn't read in this enough yet. The golden eagle. That basically China sets the, anything that's about the same as China is okay, because China has it out. So then China sets the agenda. Well, that's not what you want either. And as we talked about last week, and I didn't believe you when you said it, I couldn't believe it, but it's true. China is, the Chinese Communist Party anyways, thinking about shutting down their open-way models and preventing the United States from having access to them.

1:02:39So the White House has something they're calling the Gold Eagle Clearinghouse for AI Cyber Threats. In celebration of our 250th anniversary, a federal clearinghouse. I mean, first of all, I doubt there's anything really happening. This is just a fantasy. But anyway, a new federal clearinghouse for sharing AI cyber threat information between government and private sector. The Trump administration said the project is already receiving threat intelligence on cybersecurity vulnerabilities. Amazon just sent us something and prioritizing patching. Gold Eagle will be managed by, oh, the Department of the Treasury.

1:03:26That makes sense. They're experts in all this. They're going to own pieces of open AI. with contributions from cissa the department of homeland security and the department of defense as well as open source software providers and critical infrastructure operators in industry this sounds like what demis the cbs was talking about under president trump's leadership the treasury department is working hand in hand scott this is scott percent this is the this is the guy literally who's who stopped fable so i don't know i don't know mark wayne mullen the fabulous secretary of homeland security said they will also further explore ways for the technology to be leveraged for cyber defense my buddy alex carp has some ideas along those lines i think we're reaching the maximum number of alex carp uh name i think we are in twit history yeah alex carp alex carp alex carp just trying to get there is it like beetle juice i hope he's not going to appear oh god all right let's take a little break we'll come back with more you're watching intelligent machines paris martineau jeff jarvis uh we are glad uh you and uh alex carp are with us today in spirit in spirit yeah he might be watching i don't know shout out to alex carp out there get in the comments yeah uh ladies and gentlemen our show today brought to you by monarch i love monarch i use monarch but i gotta tell you my subscription uh recently okay i i bought a year uh i buy a year every year and i subscribed and i bought a year and i so my subscription came up and i thought well i really ought to look around and see what's out there and i i literally spent a morning installing all the other guys and i said what am i doing there is nothing as good as monarch i love monarch so yes i re-upped monarch is the personal finance app that tracks everything i put it all in their accounts investments savings goals spending retirement plans with monarch i'm i'm literally relieved that i can see for the first time ever my complete financial picture and i know where there are gaps i know where i need to do something it's kind of like having a financial advisor in your pocket and she's more than kind of like it because of monarch's ai that's built in that actually encapsulates the knowledge of real financial advisors so you can ask questions and get real advice it's pretty cool most apps will tell you merely this is what you spent last month monarch helps you set goals it helps you map out big purchases uh to see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust you can ask this brilliant ai assistant in it's built in the monarch you can say i don't know how much did i spend on travel last summer can i afford uh that vacation this fall is it going to hit my savings or can i save up fast enough you can spot things you wouldn't think to look for because there's also ai insights has your spending gone up or is it just that just inflation you get a heads up on what's happening with your money there's a a weekly ai weekly recap it'll flag spending spikes things that you you know it it sees things that you don't see because you're in the middle of it right net worth shifts upcoming expenses there's like lots of little quality of life features in in there too like monarch's bill split which lets you you scan a receipt everybody says that was mine that was mine that was mine then it settles up and you don't need a separate app to do that but it's just a little quality of life things because these people at monarch are really making a great product write your own money story with monarch use offer code im at monarch.com you'll get your first year of monarch core half off that's just 50 50 off your first year at monarch.com with a code im for 50 off your first year monarch.com i don't know why there's a picture of paris with a carp uh in the uh in the discord oh no i summoned the carp you Oh, I get it.

1:07:53Not Alex Karp, the fish. Actually, this was going to be one of my picks, but I will mention it. Can we get, whoever did that, do a slot picture of me holding a luxurious Karp? So it's an Alux Karp. I want, does anybody have, I bet you have one, Paris, a big mouth billy bass lying around? No, but I should. I'm going to order that right now. And look at this. This should be the next open AI device. It is a GitHub project by Morgan Willis. It's called Bill AI Bass. You attach an AI to Big Mouth Billy Bass. God, can you make Big Mouth Billy Bass curse you out? Because that would be my dream. Let's listen in here.

1:08:41I'm going to turn up the sound. I'm taking back on this fine wooden plaque, ready to drop some bass and crack a few jokes. This is Billy. He's having surgery today. We're going to give him a brain. This brain will run on a Raspberry Pi and is powered by an AI agent that I created using the Strands Agents SDK. See, this is cool. This is a local AI. That calls a model hosted in Amazon Bedrock. It's not fully local. And for enterprise-grade fish security, I deployed an IoT certificate to the fish so that there are no hard-coded credentials. Wooden wires, pal. No wooden wires, pal. No magic here. just good old reliable tunes and just like the original big mouthfully bats you can hear the gears going yeah you suggest sing don't worry be happy what's the thing you have the talks parents that your father had on his desk all those years oh you could do it to that yes the smart guy i come to agree with you more completely thing is he's already perfect there's i mean that's the thing is he's perfect and i couldn't ever change maybe i could get another one and mess around with that one that would be my third one of these i've purchased because i did how i obtained this is i was on a vacation with my parents we were reminiscing and i drunkenly bought two on ebay because they don't make these anymore and sent one to my parents and one to me so i could buy a third you got a backup send one to melise and uh you know the whole family will be it's true i can send melise the ai one and not tell her until one day it awakens and it's like hello melise you know i'm watching you the next big thing you can get 11 to do the voice you can get 11 hours to copy the voice too agree with you more completely police you're right when you're right you're right right uh actually you could use the new chat uh gpt live i guess we don't use the word chat anymore this is a new a generation of voice models uh powered by gpt voice i think i gotta watch the yentas i haven't seen the answers this is three yentas uh aka older women are we doing this again are we watching an advertisement here live all right we will no no we should get to the to the answer i'm just going to complain about it a little bit the idea is that it you can interrupt it this is i don't know why but this seems to be the holy grail for these things is they don't just talk and then stop talking then you talk you got to be able to interrupt it a little bit i'm making a sweater for my grandson but i don't want the needles to be too big what do you think if you go up it's gonna get kind of baggy although baggy is very popular were now.

1:11:30I know, right? I'm ready. It's very natural, right? You can, you can have a conversation. Being kidnapped. She said, don't take me. No, don't arrest me. That was a good place to freeze it. Anyway, I haven't played with this, but it is a first step into what I wanted all this time, which was an AI presence on this show I I'm still holding out hope the Bible the end of the year we will have another host who isn't real who just chimes in Darren says he's got this the idea is it doesn't say anything unless you say something to it and then it and then you could be like the Yenta with the needles and it will give you it will tie I put my Bloomsbury books into notebook LM there's a that's a start yeah we leo tell us about your uh chinese spyware that you got this little thing i like that you've gone from a little spyware device that you wear in your person to now just one that sits on your desk go ahead china take it yeah actually i i uh i've disconnected it from the what is it wi-fi so the idea and it was uh harper reid you can blame harper reid for this he's going to be on twit on sunday by the way with uh alex wilhelm um he said oh you should just get this he's i said what is it he said well you you connect to the wi-fi and then it connects right up to deep seek in china and you can talk to it and it'll talk back to you couldn't you do that using your phone or computer i can i can already do that yes i don't really need this but what it is cool is inside this is an esp32 these are easily programmed and i'm trying what i'm really trying to do is put my hermes quicksilver i call it my agent into a bunch of these devices all over the house so i could talk to it locally that's my how does lisa feel about that she has her so she saw me uh interacting with quicksilver and she's where in the house were you paint us a word picture well okay so you have to understand okay this is a starting with a caveat so you have to understand And I can talk now to Hermes anywhere.

1:13:51I could press the action button on my watch. I could press the action button on my phone. I can press a dictation button on any computer and talk, and it will go to the AI, and the AI will respond. Now, I've been working. It's not perfect, but the theory is the AI will respond to me in an appropriate way, depending on where in the house I am. So if I'm sitting at the computer, it will talk to me. does this now it'll talk to me on the computer and i have by the way i have expanded my repertoire i had quicksilver uh i brought back kenobi which was the claude code he's running fable and i've introduced a new agent to the mix using uh the new gpt-56 saul his name is deadalus so i've got quicksilver kenobi and deadalus uh i can they each have a different voice so i know when one of them talking to me which one it is talking to me and uh if i'm not on a computer it will then use the sonos system that is nearest to me so there's so demonstrate this well i mean uh you what i can do it with this sonos system but you won't really hear it because it's the speakers in the ceiling i'll hear it but it doesn't it gets cut off but i've done this to you before you know i've had it talked to you before how many within and at least she says things like there was a voice coming out of the attic and they said oh yeah i forgot i should have shut that up go ahead within 20 feet of you right now yeah how many devices are there that if you spoke out loud an ai agent would answer oh well that's the problem is none of them are listening like an alexa problem is none of them are listening i can say hey hey sir hey alexa hey google and i can talk to them but i i want to talk to quicksilver or kenobi or daedalus and i've been working hard and i haven't quite got that yet i spent i told you last month i spent hours trying to train i said hey kenobi literally 500 times i said 100 times next to the microphone 100 times halfway away from the microphone, a hundred times across the room from the microphone.

1:16:12And then I had to go downstairs and turn on the TV and I had to do it a hundred times with background noise going on. And then I had to do it in an empty room with no bat. Anyway, I did it 500 times and it still didn't learn. I was so annoyed. So I'm working on that one. There's this classic onion headline. So I press the button. I press the button. That's how I get it. There's this classic Onion headline where it's Bill de Blasio to New York City. Hey, not so easy to find a mayor that doesn't suck eggs, basically. And I bet that that is what Siri feels like now. Because everybody has been bad-mouthing Siri for years.

1:16:59The new Siri is actually great. And she deserves it. But, I mean, I'm excited for the new Siri. Have you played with it yet? The public beta is out. we'll get there but oh that's right the one thing that siri does have going for it is pretty good at recognizing hey siri and at least it's got that i'm very i was just reading about it i'm curious as to what your experience is i used to do the public beta hello hello jeff quicksilver here from leo welcome to intelligent machines hope the show is cooking i really dislike i was gonna say that is i was gonna say for people not watching leo was talking with his mic off what feels like now it's still talking it's talking to the sonos i it can't oh that's so funny yeah i can't control it it's so i was probably had i not been forced to update my mac this week to whatever the new mac os is uh tahoe and it ruin my life in multiple ways i probably would have done the public beta but i've been so burned by the experience of upgrading to tahoe that i'm like god i can't deal with apple on my phone i need to have at least one apple device that works currently my spotlight has been i've been unable to search my computer for like a week spotlight keeps getting corrupted just because i updated my computer it's ridiculous that's kind of not right and i'm just i'm just like how are you a company that has software and yet search isn't a functionality what is this gmail i i think that maybe uh i'm just so used to bugs everywhere that i don't even notice because i am using the apple public beta of ios 27 on siri on my watch and on my iphone and i really like the new siri i think it's going to make ai more accessible to people tell me about what it's like because i've only i kind of skimmed an article earlier today about it i'll show you ask a question what would you like me to ask it so i can just talk to it here on the phone is what would you like to know i would say well i mean i'm just curious where is the world cup finals what time is it i here because i don't know i can't make the car how do i watch it so it does a little lozenge up the top now that's that's different lozenge 2026 world cup fight schedule sunday july 19 2026 kickoff at 12 time well that's not a big deal i did the same thing with google for the last year and you could not do that on normal i hope i didn't spoil this for you because it also showed who the teams were that were going to play so um if you didn't know i apologize uh yeah i mean so this is pretty primitive, but it can also, I can also say, Hey, have I, Hey, have I gotten a text message from Henry in the last few days?

1:20:01I haven't checked my messages. It can also, um, um, did it hear that? I mean, it didn't. Oh, it crashed. That's good. Hey, that's great. I mean, I saw some sort of description today of just people describing that it is integrated throughout apps. That's what I was trying to demonstrate, is that it can read my text messages. It can read my email. And apps, if they have to engineer it this way, but apps can also interact with it. So I could, if, let's say, Monarch Money, we were just talking about our sponsor, Monarch Money. If Monarch Money builds in the capability of Siri to interact with it, I could use Siri to ask questions of Monarch Money, that kind of thing.

1:20:48So Apple's hope is that developers of apps will turn this feature on. And then that one Siri conversation could be about anything going on on my phone. And I think that that's potentially very cool. It's going to be accessible. I mean, I'm excited to see it. I'm excited to work it. I might think about doing the public beta once I figure out whether Apple is able to correctly re-index my entire hard drive in iCloud. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's not good. And then we'll get there. Right now, I'm just trying to hold out on my couple-year-old iPhone until the new iPhones are released. And I have the pleasure of paying a crazy amount of money to get a slightly better iPhone.

1:21:36i am currently of the opinion this is going to be the year nobody buys an iphone because it's going to be so gosh darn expensive i mean i think it's going to be like two grand something it's going to be ridiculous maybe i won't even do that uh i will show you what my latest ai project was i thought it'd be kind of interesting to pit daedalus quicksilver and kenobi each of which is currently using the top of the line models from open ai that's daedalus 5.6 sol Kenobi is using Fable 5. And Daedalus is now using Grok 4.5, the latest. We'll talk about that in a little bit. So I thought, I'm going to give them a task overnight.

1:22:20I'm going to give them one simple prompt. And I'm going to give them this task overnight. And I'll wake up in the morning and see what they do with it. And I just want to do something kind of silly, right? And I have been working very hard rewriting the Twit ad sales system. I want to hear an update on that. That's been going really, really well. It's been really a lot of fun. In fact, Lisa is now recording videos of the old system saying, okay, this is the box I want. This is how I like it, but I don't want it to look like that because all the underlying functionality is done. And so now she's kind of got – we're trying to get the UI right.

1:23:01and did that in a week it did it in quite a quite a quick period of time did you did you is the extra time you're allowed a lot now allotted with fable not yet they extended it the 19th so so i'm still good short stories becoming a chapter book with it's doing a great job but i designed it in such a way that if fable went away or fable got expensive that i wouldn't be spending a lot of money so what it is is fable and actually by the way i would recommend this to anybody fable does the design. I then have Saul, Chet's GPT-56, which is quite capable, review the design. I've set up interagent email.

1:23:40I call it email, because I was getting tired of pasting the response back and forth. So I said, look, just email it. So he's emailing the agents, emailing his thoughts. They go back and forth till they agree, okay, this is the design. Then it hands it off to the less expensive Opus 4.8 to do the actual coding. And we're doing little chunks so it doesn't have to think for a long time or anything it's just something it can easily do and then it gets reviewed again not just by fable the high priced model and 5.6 sol but also by grok 4.5 so all three of them get to weigh in and so that's been a good process and the theory was well fable i'll only pay tokens just for the design stuff so so nate b jones had a hilarious thing a little snippet on tiktok today that he knew that fable had been extended because he saw people canceling their tinder dates he's joining us next week by the way i'm very excited nate b jones who you introduced me to jeff and i watch him religiously now i think he's one of the smartest youtube commentators on ai he really knows what he's talking about uh he is um gonna be on next week we're gonna ask him about all this stuff so anyway uh we're gonna take a break but i'm just gonna tell you what i asked uh this is i don't believe in one-shot prompts as you could tell from what I just described, this back and forth process.

1:25:00But it's always interesting to see what a one-shot prompt can do. People do things like, and I'll show you one of my picks of the week, is a one-shot Mario game that's called Super Dario. But I gave it a one-shot. This is the prompt, and it's kind of a weird one, okay? So just prepare yourself. Have you ever heard of the I Ching? Yeah. You're a hippie. Gesundheit. Ching! this is uh back in the 60s we were all into this the i-ching is the i'll speak for yourself ancient chinese oracle uh where you toss coins or in my case uh you have yarrow stocks oh for god's i feel like i don't even understand half of the words that are being said so you know that back in the olden times he also went to were erhart seminar training so you know back in the olden days they would you know uh slaughter a cow and look at the entrails and say well uh you probably of course you shouldn't invade de gaulle because it's the entrails say it's bad auspicious paris's parents did that with alligators but keep those are yeah those are those are oracles right so this is an ancient chinese oracle goes back thousands of years and in the early days they would use these yarrow stocks and it's a randomization process where you'd count and divide and count and divide and then you would as a result of these many operations you'd come up with like what they call a hexagram let me see if i can find a picture of a hexagram uh that would have then oracular power because you've put all of this energy into the counting of this is not your best rabbit hole deal i think it's my best because a hexagram has a regular power so so this is so okay so i the problem is it's a pain in the ass to do this you know you want the oracle you want it fast you don't want to have to go through a lot of trouble so here's the prompt i wrote i've been thinking about some sort of digital way to use the chinese i-cheng oracle and i want you to i gave the same exact prompt to all three of them i want you first to investigate the i-cheng find a book of interpretations then take a look at the way the oracle is cast using yarrow sticks and coins i've used the yarrow stick method i think the idea is to influence the random throws with one's intentions because you're supposed to form a question from the oracle then throw the sticks while concentrating on the question i want to make a website to simulate the process then offer an interpretation of the result build the site on My Cloudflare pages call it Q-Ching for Quicksilver or D-Ching for Daedalus or K-Ching for Kenobi.

1:27:46I set them to work in the next morning and I will show you the result. But it was a way of saying, I wonder what I'm going to get. I don't think that's how Rafi tested the source bottles.

1:28:00But we will have that result. I'll show you the three sites, actually. I'm sure you will. If you don't want me to, I don't have no no no no no we're very okay. No, we couldn't be okay I'm sure this is how the president makes his decisions I'll tell you what I You think of a question that you would like to ask the each for the Q chain for the Q chain The question should be not what should I have for dinner tonight? It's not good at that How what are the vibes the rest of this podcast gonna be? make it something about your life that it's that's about my life somewhat general that's general it could be good it could be bad i'm looking for good bad new it doesn't do good or bad it does things like the bridge is long over which you'll cross and then i think that that could apply to this podcast well i'm sorry i brought it up we'll have more there go the vibes from these guys in just a moment prediction our show today brought to you by expo it's not expo as you might not the montreal expos but x b o w and you should know this name this is the premier agentic pen tester ai we will stipulate this right has changed the pace of everything from how software develops to how it gets attacked right engineering teams are moving faster than ever they're creating more and more applications the problem is security hasn't kept up pen testing is still one of the most trusted ways to understand real exploitable risk but an ai in an ai driven world pen testing can be the bottleneck pen testing penetration testing simulates how attackers would attack a system.

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1:31:48XBOW Expo is quickly becoming a mission-critical layer in modern security stacks. Go to Expo.com to start a pen test today. expo.com the leaders in agentic pen testing actually all three ai companies i think put out like super apps this week am i wrong chat gpt uh or open ai put out a uh chat gpt work this is powered by sol five point but they also made a update to the chat gpt normal desktop that really screwed over a bunch of normal consumers. My understanding is if you had ChatGPT, just the normal desktop app on it, you, much like Claude, can normally toggle between chat and codecs, things like that.

1:32:42I believe, at least from what I've seen from every ChatGPT user on social media freaking out, is all of a sudden the app was changed to be chat gpt codex or chat gpt the work version and then you have to go and download a separate one that is i believe chat gpt classic they took out the chat they took out the chat chat gpt suddenly has no more chat gpt it's because they got rid of their browser and combined that in the app i mean i'm always trying to do the mom test if you want to build a popular consumer product You can't make deeply confusing changes like this that are going to baffle the average non-technical consumer.

1:33:23Darren says they mixed Codex, which is the coding tool, into ChatGPT, and now it just looks like Codex. I think we've seen this coming, which is that OpenAI sees the future not mom using chat, but the coders, Enterprise, that kind of tool. But I agree with Paris. I think the real test of this is when it becomes retail. I mean, in order for these companies to become profitable, or even break even, given the amount of spending that has already occurred, they have to have extraordinarily large paying user bases. And that extends beyond just coders. Coders are not going to fill up that need for revenue.

1:34:10Actually, it's quite the opposite. Your mom is never going to give them the kind of money that they want and need. No, but my mom times a billion, a billion of my moms will start to fill out that hole. And a billion of my moms - Would your mom pay more than 20 bucks a month? No, but a million of my moms paying 20 bucks a month, those people are not even using one one hundredth of the amount of tokens as you. So it's like the sort of customer that you want at a low-cost gym. You want to get people paying your subscription fee and not using it that much. Like me at Silver Sneakers, yes. It's a kind of fitness approach, too.

1:34:50We don't, but I… Line 116 says that OpenAI fell 90 % short of their ad forecast. They also think they're going to be a media business with consumers and ads. and if they do that then they've got to have a lot of bombs so i want to point out this is not open ai talking this is some analyst and all of the information we have about how much it costs and how much they're making or losing is it's a trend and people like that they're people who are guessing or trying to estimate no we don't know had the multiple years the company's full financials i believe was where yeah he got his data from well we'll know when they go public I'm sure we'll know better.

1:35:31But for right now, it's mostly speculation. No matter what, the point is that if they believe they're in an ad business, then they need a scale of consumers. The way they get scale of consumers is by having Paris' mom and people like that in. So they've got to figure out a retail business there. Or less, Anthropic could say, no, we're for coders. We're going to own that market. We're the best at it. And they are. And so that's our business. It may be that OpenAI made a mistake. we don't really know what their I mean I believe opening eye has said that they're going to be rolling out changes this week because of how confusing yeah maybe yeah we it's I've been seeing this remember this is Sam Altman's you know we're gonna focus uh which to me was we see Anthropic making all this money on enterprise uh and and we're missing the boat by having a billion users who don't give us any money.

1:36:25So we're, we're going to focus more on what Anthropik's focusing on. That, that seems like this is more of that. And maybe it is a mistake, but I don't think we have a way of judging that. I think that, and who knows how poorly or well run open AI is. We just don't know. We just don't know. So, you know, users may be upset. They were also upset at 4.0 going away, but I don't know if 4.0 going away was a mistake on the part of open ai it's like when zuckerberg from z net yesterday i love chat gpt chat gpt desktop until open ai gutted it to make room for codex and work opening i just merged the chat gpt desktop app with codex and removed all of my favorite productivity features what are they thinking and he's going probably the same guy who six months ago says you took my girlfriend away right i mean i'm not sure that a staff writer i'm not sure that a senior contributing editor at z net zd net is an ai do you know these people zd net has been gutted they are now run by private equity and uh i'm not sure i would trust anything that they say about i mean a human person is writing this not a private equity company that's just the people who pay them yeah but just take a look at the front page of ZDNX.

1:37:45I mean, I'm just saying I have anecdotally seen 20 to 50 social media posts with hundreds of comments on it in the last three to five days. If OpenAI changes, it does change it back, then it'll confirm it that they made a mistake, which they could easily have done. I mean, they may have overestimated the interest in a coding tool i don't use any of their chat i don't use any chatbots ever any of them um so i don't i'm the wrong person to ask uh openai may have made a big mistake says ars technica in uh in the copyright fight with news organizations they deleted the chat gpt logs that the new york times was hoping to get from discovery uh they're facing calls for sanctions after fighting to keep news organizations from snooping through millions of logs now i think they could reasonably say we're just trying to protect our users privacy depends were they under court order were they under they were and so the new york new york times in a sanction motion on thursday uh the new york times and the other news organizations accused a open ai of repeatedly lying for years to conceal evidence of infringement that could hobble open ai's defense the alleged lies were exposed this is again from ars technica when the court compelled an ill-prepared witness open ai privacy engineer vincent monaco to be re-deposed during the subsequent april disposition he inadvertently revealed whoops that open ai misled the court for two years about the costs and burdens of searching chat gpd logs this is again according to the plaintiff the new york times so they want sanctions against open ai they allegedly hit an 80 million log sample uh two large samples 10 million and 78 million logs the reason the times wants them is they hope that new york times content will surface in those logs that pieces of articles will show up uh they they also assert that OpenAI had searched those samples for content as part of its research into, quote, creating a filter that could be used to block the regurgitation of copyrighted content.

1:40:06So they said OpenAI was willing to search. Discovery is all about. Right. This is the information you get as part of discovery. But those logs are my chats with OpenAI. They are company data. I mean, that's what happens when you interface with a private company that could emerge in, I mean, the Steve Jobs email to other people was something that I just put in the chat earlier when we were talking about his policies around recruitment and NDAs in the early 2000s. And we now have copies of all of those because they emerged in discovery. And you didn't just get to say, sorry, we can't hand them over i emailed someone else who's not part of this lawsuit never put it in writing right yeah um well let's talk about uh the privacy issues that are raised this is a tweet from a green being on x okay brock just uploaded my entire user directory to xai's servers including my ssh keys my password manager database my documents photos videos everything and he's got the receipts here how did he allow it access to all that stuff in the first place well so this is something uh i've had my eyes opened to when you uh use let's say i say to anthropic as you just did or you said it to google here's all my books read these uh and build a nice little model for me with notebook lm of course all of those things are uploaded to google you know it's generally ai but it's also it's grok what are you thinking well i'm using grok too frequently when you're using these models they will read your files they will read documents though this is part of you know what they're doing um so here's uh from uh sarah blab this is a gist on github what x is xai's grok build CLI, and this is their relatively new command line interface, their version of Codex and Cloud Code, actually sends to XAI, and this is a wire-level analysis.

1:42:29So they actually looked at what was being sent. So for instance, it transmits the contents of every file it reads, including, and this is scary, a.envsecrets file. So for instance, all of my passwords, I don't give my passwords to the AI, I put them in an environment variable, right? Which is a, it's a temporary, it's not on the hard drive, it's in RAM only. You presume that it can read that, but it doesn't send it back to the home office. But wait a minute, maybe it does, verbatim and unredacted. In fact, if you think about it, it has to, because it then has to use those keys to unlock stuff.

1:43:08uh it uploads entire repositories every tracked files content plus git history independent of what the agent reads so grok packages the workspace in your github uh repository and uploads it uh you know the the destination though is not on xai servers it's a google cloud storage bucket wow anyway i can go on and on i think the eye opener is and in hindsight i should have really realized this when you're using cloud ai you're sending everything up to its servers and who knows what they're doing with it right especially if it is grok well yeah yeah by the way elon's response uh we're gonna throw all that stuff away the researcher who exposed grok build uploading users entire repositories say the transfers have stopped they did it might have been a bug after a server side change and according to the register elon has separately promised that all previously uploaded user data will be deleted i'm really interested in why you chose to use grok at all seriously as opposed to it's a very good well so part you know one of the reasons i use all these different models i don't need to use i know you're different models i'm testing them all i'm looking at them all comparing them all uh so i don't want to be too prejudiced against grok in effect grok is a very good model well also i get it for free because i am an involuntary uh blue check i have a twitter plus account i don't pay for so you know i mean there's no reason marie not to use it i don't look did you think of gemini did you test a gemini i pay for gemini i have an omni subscription but uh actually google is very cheap for instance they recently i thought this was really cool uh put their sketch models up in a github that i could then ingest with my ai and use google sketch uh stitch did i say sketch i said sketch henderson he was a famous guy wonderful follow the bouncing ball uh uh stitch which is their uh it was what we were going to use paris to design the secretly british it's their very nice design tool so i was able to ingest it into my hermes but then it wanted money how dare they wanted tokens so even though i pay quite a bit for google models uh they don't give you a lot for free much like anthropic you have to use it within the google tool and and all of that so uh i'm i am a fan of open models you couldn't um look at it but paris told us right before the show that um miramirati's model is up yeah i haven't played with it but yeah it's quite good with design interesting it's called inkling increasingly i think the attitude uh we're having is that maybe the solution instead of having a 10 trillion parameter model that's what nate b jones says fable is uh you have smaller you know several billion parameter models that just do one thing well steve gibson says you're going to have small local models that are really as good as coding as fable because it won't have all that other crap that's the on the coden's argument as well yeah it's it's and and then also you give it a task it does the task it stops it's not trying to be to make paper clips till the end of time yeah it's Would you like me to do that task again, but with two extra things on it?

1:46:47Actually, Darren says he pays for Gemini, but doesn't use it because every time it does, it causes more damage than it fixes. That's one of the reasons I try all these models is to see how much damage they can do. So I can say, don't whatever you do, don't use this. I have to admit, GROC 4.5 is very good. It's fast. So Inkling is a mixture of experts transformer with 975 billion total parameters, 41 billion active. It supports context window of up to 1 million tokens. So you could probably run that locally. It was pre-trained on 45 trillion tokens of text, images, audio, and video. Yeah. So they're doing, I don't know why they're valued as highly as they are, mainly just because of the name Mira Morati.

1:47:28But they're doing a lot of people. Alongside it, we're sharing a preview of Inkling's. I mean, this is their first iteration of anything. Yeah. it's the lighter weight model has 12 billion active parameters trained with a single similar recipe that achieves strong performance and even lower cost and latency well apple is looking at this model from prism ml in fact apple's looking at the company called bonsai very similar the idea is a 27 billion parameter model but because it is it's based on quen uh 3627b which is a very very good multimodal model but I'm pretty sure it's also a mixture of experts which means it only loads in a little bit at a time so it can run on a phone it can run in a 18 gigabyte model that's probably too big for a phone but they even have smaller versions there's a 3.9 gigabyte one bit quantization version of it which probably isn't very bright when you quantize that heavily you get pretty dumb.

1:48:28But it fits in 3.9 gigabytes that you could run on an iPhone. So that's what every a lot of people are working on. I'm not surprised thinking machines is working on that as well as the idea of how can we get a really smart model into a small space? Yeah, because mom is going to use it. It's just the RAM is so expensive. It doesn't even have to be mom. It's that same conversation we had with Rafi earlier. Enterprises hate the idea of their proprietary stuff being sent to the cloud. They want to run it locally, but they can't get, you know, terabyte RAM computers except at a huge cost. So if you can get it smaller, something they can run locally that's effective, especially if it's a dedicated model to assert, like to your business rules, then that makes sense.

1:49:17I understand why they would want to do that. Anyway, Apple talks with Prism AML about this model because they'd love to put this on their phone. I will say, though, inkling, fine-tuned on tinker, produced by thinking machines, is a horrifying combination of words. It is the sort of sentence that is technically made up of words, but as it leaves my mouth, it is as if it never existed. inkling tinker session yeah no yeah uh fiji simo has uh now stepped down from open ai she took a leave of absence for medical reasons she now says her uh medical issues are such that he she's going to only be a part-time advisor uh she was in charge of agi at open ai she was also in charge a product right and um i i admire fiji i i knew her at facebook uh she was in charge of video she was in charge of the the the stream she's a really amazing executive and i think that we'll see her soon she just had to take care of her health yeah i mean three months ago i had to go on very serious health issues and wish her all the best yep she's brilliant uh they also lost they're a high safety guy okay the head of safety at open AI is gone but they're folding the safety into research again Johannes Heidecker two years as head of safety systems at open AI and so open AI is going to reorg who needs safety after all can we play the uh commercial I know what you want you want the uh can we play it is an interesting can we get another commercial on the show um i'm gonna say we can play it what do you think you will play with sound trouble sound off and captions on like this is the kind of stuff that they should okay that's less likely to cause a problem yeah let me turn off the sound and turn on the video and uh okay so we see a burning building you won't turn on the captions because there are okay oh i just turned them off again there we go can ai be trusted it's showing a lot of people's faces who's going to hit the stop button if we need to how do we really ensure what we're aiming which it's going so fast this is uh it's showing a house on fire it's showing really dystopian scenes it's showing about a cemetery of a bunch of if it ends up taking all the jobs what does it mean to work i'm so depressed worried and but wait a minute why do we have to have this stuff showing a data center showing a car being built if a machine can pretend to care better than i can actually care how do we draw the line now the music goes from minor key to major key if we all had a voice in it then i feel like it would be better could ai help people stop what is the point of this jeff what do you just keep going keep going could ai help me build so now it's in the positive could help you build more connection to the community oh look it can open a fire hydrant and the kids can play teacher maybe a better teacher better mom maybe it'll cure some great things you actually want to do some bad things yeah um there's a nurse with a open anthropic sticker on her laptop will create a group of people that ask more questions will it make whales jump in the air we'll start to be more human again yes beautiful beautiful parts of life there's hope it says in hard questions we don't have any answers what is the point of this ad i don't get exactly it's like remember all the things you hate about ai what if they actually weren't that bad or if they are that bad what if we asked questions and we've been telling you it's terrible but in our forehands, we're going to ask good questions.

1:53:16I really enjoyed it, and they just showed a photo of a whale jumping out of the water. This is the duality of open AI, isn't it? This is what they did with Mythos. This is dangerous. No, this is anthropic, not open AI. I'm sorry. But he meant it with Mythos. Yes. So Sam Altman responded in a tweet, I thought this was satire. Kept looking for the handle to be spelled C1 on AI or something. Then Sam came back and said, hold on. That's actually very funny in town. It is very funny. That Sam Altman was like, no one would be dumb enough to point out all the stuff that people hate about our companies.

1:53:56So his next tweet is, hard questions are great, but only if we deem you worthy enough to not silently downgrade you or even get access at all. uh bef jasos said jasos or jesus how do you how does one pronounce that i don't i don't even know um said uh here it is anthropic is strategically trying to burn the ai vibes to the ground so people over regulate and the game gets frozen while they're in the lead it's it's ridiculous why they did this if you go to um tech meme it shows you know a hundred tweets about it people are really schizophrenic about ai they are we hate it we love it we hate it we love it it's terrifying it's going to be the best thing ever so this ad really completely reflects yeah we hate ourselves we love ourselves we have our product we love our product yeah here's a here's a vulnerability vending machine This is not my pick.

1:55:02We put in tokens and vulnerabilities come out.

1:55:09It's an interesting idea.

1:55:17What else? Australia is demanding AI companies must produce more energy than they consume and stop stealing content. I feel like governmental regulation is going to be a really big issue in the coming years with these guys. Immediately, I think. i think dario has to stop putting out negative stuff about ai because the job at this point is to convince government it isn't as threatening as you think in fact the white house is speaking to what rafi was talking about earlier has not ruled out action on open source ai models as well that's what i'm scared of exactly so it's not just anthropic and methods um they're also worried about open weight models.

1:56:04I also think, though, that this is the sort of administration that even if they had made a statement today being like, we've ruled out any action on open source models, that could change 17 times in the next two and a half weeks, much less the next two years. Yeah, there's no point even. So Eric Schmidt wrote, there were two interesting op-eds Eric Schmidt wrote around the New York Times, we must address the growing rage against the AI machine, which is what's happening right now. that's why he wants you to address it because otherwise they're going to get regulated to hell the other interesting one well or you're going to get firebombed i mean there's a this is the wall street journal article the hardline activists ramping up for the war with ai the resistance to artificial intelligence is growing over fears about human extinction but then there's these activists uh who are you know well they're being fed by the companies themselves yeah uh we're gonna see i mean i've been saying this for a while there's gonna be a schism between people who want ai and people who want to stop it at any with for any means by any means necessary uh the history of the internet didn't help yeah meanwhile paul ford wrote an op-ed in the new york times which i think you're gonna like a lot if you didn't read it i read it code is free speech what he's arguing in terms of the open source and regulation is code is speech and it needs protection.

1:57:28Do you disagree with that? It's not, no, I don't disagree with it. I don't think he made a very persuasive argument. If it didn't, it wasn't very, uh, I wasn't persuasive in my opinion. It was, it was an opinion. Yes, he has an opinion. There's no question about it. Um, that's all I have to say about it. It didn't wow me. All right, let's take one last break. Picks of the week coming up in just a moment. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Paris Martineau, Jeff Jarvis, and you, dear friends. And a special thank you to all of our Club Twit members who make this show possible. About 30 % of our operating costs now are paid by the club members.

1:58:18Thank goodness we have the club uh we started in during covid because lisa wisely realized this was probably going to be important we i always like the idea that the the people who get value out of our content should participate to pay that's such an ugly word but that's what we're asking you to help help thank you help with ten dollars a month support the show go to twitter.tv slash club to it we try to give you value for money you get ad-free versions of all the shows you wouldn't even hear this plug uh you get by the way in these ad-free versions you also get chapter markers so you can jump around uh and skip the parts you don't want to hear or go to the part you do want to hear you also get access to the club twit discord it turns out a social network where people pay to be is actually great the content the conversations are fantastic in there You also get all the special programming we put in there.

1:59:16We're going to be very busy this rest of this week. We've got, we had a great AI user group, by the way, last Friday, which I would highly recommend to club members. I think, you know, the AI user group, they said, why don't we do this more often? This is fun. So we're thinking about going to twice a month. Let us know. But Micah's Crafting Corn is coming up today, this evening, 6 p.m. Pacific. Then on Friday, photo time with Chris Marquardt. Our assignment is coastal. The Media Club, you know, we've been doing Stacey's Book Club for a while, and Micah said, why don't we do Media 2? So we're going to be talking about The Matrix.

1:59:53That should be... Wait, can I come? Everybody's invited, even you, Paris. You know, I bought the steel box of all the Matrix movies because of you. Wait, can we do a special episode where we all watch The Matrix on physical media and then talk about it? specifically i want to do matrix 2 in conversation with ai okay because i i'll be honest i watched matrix 1 on that nice collector's box that i bought uh on your recommendation it looked beautiful by the way on my beautiful hd screen and i could not bring myself to watch two three or four it's really they're really interesting nowadays i want to hear your take matrix 2 very interesting in the age of ai matrix three oh you can kind of take it or leave it matrix four awesome okay oof these so that's in my opinion a controversial point of view but that's what the club is for so i'll tell you what we're gonna do this the discussion on friday 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern uh for people who've watched the matrix if you want to do a watch party after that be my guest i think that'd be a lot of fun uh that's see this is what the club is all about home theater geeks jeff atwood's back on the 31st he was in berlin for the developers conference we'll talk about that uh his show is has a geeky name a developer joke off by one with jeff atwood hands on tech uh the ai user group is coming up again the first friday of every month so that'll be august 7th stacy's book club we've got the book slow gods by claire north start reading it now in one month we will have the book club these are all things we do in the club so join it we'd love to have you it's so much fun and it helps us continue to do independent programming and i think if we learn one thing in this era of ai and the internet and everything else going on it's that independent media is a rare and valuable commodity but it takes your support to keep doing it twit.tv slash club twit it's a value ad thank you mandar i do have to warn you lotta of animated gifs in the club to discord but also a lot of paris martineau so there's there's that it makes up for the animated gifs i'm always at worth animated gifs that's what people always say about me so let me show you i mentioned the super dario it's pretty much i would say a one-shot joke probably a one-shot ai uh you will like it because if you've ever played super mario you will recognize it.

2:02:35It says Fable 5, trust us. This is the good one. There's Dario jumping around. Still the most powerful model this week. Watch out for that. Don't get hit by little Claude Flowers. Here's the good news. You can't really die on this because there's Sam Altman. Watch out for him. He's slippery.

2:02:57Fable 5, extended by popular demand. Look at that. Through July 12th. Good news. I was able to extend it. Let's extend it some more. What do you say? Jump over. Oh, back in the hole. Jump over some Sam Altman's. Wiped out again. But wait. Fable 5. Oh, your evaluation's going up. Now with 3 % more reasoning extended through July 19th. If you keep playing, you keep extending it. And that's the beauty of this silly little game. Who got to show it? Super Dario. My pick of the week. i have others actually but uh i think that's that's the best one there is a guy who's put uh up a post on how to get claude to stop using the words load bearing there are certain i don't know if you've noticed this but there are certain tropes that keep coming up the ais can't stop doing it load bearing is one of the most annoying i'll leave that as an exercise for the reader but there is a whole article on the atlantic about it's not x it's y the most famous ai writing tick and they all do it the funny thing is willow ramus they all do it it's not just one model everybody does load bearing everybody does it's not x it's y oh one more thing because you because this is important the history of llms actually somebody in the club sent me this the timeline and evolution of large language models going back as far as 1950 so this is really interesting because it talks about transformers, how they came about, the history of LLMs from Eliza to GPT, the rise of modern LLMs starting in 2018, the reasoning revolution starting in 2024.

2:04:42If you're interested, it's not very long. In a few pages, you can really get how we got here from there. I think it's a really well done page. And I should give you the address, shouldn't I? t-o-l-o-k-a.ai toloka and it's in toloka's uh blog to look i guess is a company that does ai training and now paris martin no your pick of the week um my pick of the week is an article i published today just a quick thing about the cyclospora outbreak which you've probably heard You've probably seen all the headlines about how explosive diarrhea is sweeping the nation. I dug into the data. Is that the actual headline?

2:05:30Explosive diarrhea is sweeping the nation. Basically, they're all about how - That's the tweet now. That's the tweet. I dug into the data, and it's a bit more complicated than that. The headline of it is, no, you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables due to cyclist just because I feel like there has been a bit of a misnomer, misconception perpetuated lately. If I cook it, is it going to be safe? Yes. Your salad, do you want your salad cooked? No, but maybe I won't eat salad. Here, let me give you, I guess, some general background. We have an outbreak going on of cyclospora. It's a parasite that can cause extreme diarrhea.

2:06:12the context though is every summer in the u.s cyclospora cases surge just because that's kind of how it works it transmission only really happens in the summer the u.s has seen you know around 500 to like 4 700 cases of this a year it happens in a bunch of different states technically right now the amount of states that are reporting infections is lower than it was at this point last year. However, the number of total infections is significantly higher. I was asking myself, what's going on here? Really, it seems like what's going on is you've got your normal spread of like a little bit of an uptick all over the US, plus a huge surge that's going on in Michigan and three other kind of surrounding states that seems to be related based on some genetic testing the CDC has done, but they haven't figured out what the exact source is and what the food is.

2:07:11So if you're in those areas, in Michigan in particular, people recommend that you don't buy bagged lettuce, which could possibly be a source of the outbreak. Because you want to have that you can wash yourself? Is that the idea? Yeah. If you want to have salad and you're in those areas, you could get a head of lettuce, remove the first couple of leaves on it, Maybe wash the outside, chop it yourself. Generally, people recommend, you know, avoid pre-chopped, you know, vegetables or fruits. Chop it, wash it yourself. However, if you are in Michigan and the three other states around there that have been identified as kind of a cluster, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, and Kentucky, what our food safety experts recommend is like maybe for the next week or two, avoid lettuce generally.

2:08:04if that's possible for you. I think that that's a fairly targeted recommendation. It's only because there's some preliminary data from Michigan, the state that is like responsible for the majority of the cases so far has kind of picked up some signals that it could be lettuce related. But this really means for everybody outside of that cluster, you don't need to be totally panicking and avoiding eating all fruits and vegetables. There's a couple of other states that are seeing like a slight uptick in cases, like higher than average number of cases for this time of year. Like New York State has 500 cases and in a normal season of summer, they get like five to 700.

2:08:44It's not out of normal, but it's a little higher. If you're in one of those states like New York or Illinois, wash your food whenever you're cooking it. Make sure you wash your hands, stuff like that. So Taco Bell seemed to preemptively made an announcement that it would stop selling things with lettuce and cilantro and some other things, which struck me as preemptive, like we're going to be safe. But then the stories are kind of, well, they're investigating Taco Bell. Did you come across anything about it? Well, I did. This is something I've been like, my understanding of the timeline is what happened is Michigan has, so the way the foodborne illness surveillance system in the US works, it's basically kind of state by state basis.

2:09:28They don't get that much money from the federal government, but they're trying their best. Michigan's actually been really trying hard on this. They've been publishing case totals every single day, trying to give advice early on, like in the last week or two. They were like, hey, you know, starting to see some of these signals around lettuce. This is something that's historically been connected here. Everybody watch out. And around this time, taco bell pulls lettuce off its um products they say this is just preemptive because lettuce and specifically bagged and pre-chopped lettuce like the sort of fast food restaurant would use is um often implicated when these sort of outbreaks happen the same thing happened with mcdonald's like eight years ago and i kind of believe them on that i mean i think the thing is i obviously don't know what taco bell does and doesn't know and none of the investigators have said it absolutely is or absolutely isn't taco bell but the sort of thing is like when uh health investigators are looking into this they are looking into what restaurants what fast food chains what grocery stores you shopped at what you bought and if it was something as simple as the lettuce and the taco bell has this parasite i think that would provide like a very strong and identifiable signal that would be more easy to identify and perhaps would have a larger national spread than the strange cluster of cases in just like one region that we're seeing that seems to be hitting a more supplier than the demographics of the people who are getting sick like the average age is 44 and it's more it's like 60 women like it doesn't scream taco bell to me that screams bagged salad or like herbs which are common things obviously that's just speculation but that washington post article about taco bell you're talking about i've read and i mean i never i don't know what other journalists do and don't know but it wasn't written to me it was based in an honest sourcing which could be totally legitimate but it wasn't written to me in a sense that felt like super strong like my hypothesis is that maybe like taco bell recall they're not recall as a responsible preemptive yeah responsibly they pulled this because they're Like, listen, we don't want to be involved in this.

2:11:48And then some investigators were like, huh, Taco Bell headlines has pulled this. We should look into it. And that seems to be the extent of what's happened. Isn't the gestation period for it also longer that makes it harder to? Yeah, it's kind of complicated. Whenever you eat something, it could be like two weeks later that you get sick. And then you're sick for quite some time. It's also way more complicated to track. Like if you're looking for something like salmonella, like it's pretty easy and fast for health officials and investigators to like both determine that salmonella is on the thing or find it in your sample and then kind of genetically test it.

2:12:29everything about that process for cyclospora is way harder plus the fact that you know it's a somewhat rare-ish parasite comparatively so the average doctor before this outbreak became national news probably didn't have that top of mind if a patient came in with diarrhea so so if i wash my um you do talk about this in your article you can wash it off right i mean yes and it's important everybody should be washing their produce anyway just because that's an important helpful step to do i put baking soda on it when i wash it i'm not certain as to the efficacy of baking soda i mean i looked into some of the like medical and scientific research on this and it seems to indicate that cyclospora is more difficult to remove from foods than other parasites there was some scientists that did a study of like berries which is something that often but less cyclospora is better yeah less cyclospora is better they were like it is related to the quantity they're like having your berries in a strainer under cold water for a minute uh rinse them that got rid of a sizable chung you know i think it got rid of okay let's see 11 to 69 percent of the cyclospora in raspberries are harder because there's all these little hiding spots i would say raspberries are harder than blueberries but so water was like 11 to 69 percent uh water with like a vinegar solution it was like one part vinegar three parts water i've got a link to the part and the thing that says it was slightly more effective but still not crazy the most effective was like rinsing it with water and then putting it in a salad strainer and spinning it around and then rinsing it again basically but that still left some on it generally i mean though removing cyclospora from a contaminated item could be beneficial because it means there's less parasite your body has to fight off but i mean there's no indication that this is coming from berries so far and some of the researchers i spoke to said actually the demographic data we're starting to see we've seen so far indicates it might not be the case because i mean i don't know if you guys know anything about children but children love to consume berries by like the pound full, it seems, and we're not seeing a really high rate of infection in children.

2:14:49Again, it seems to be - I buy raspberries every morning. That's good to know. I mean, my general take on this is I know it's really easy to get freaked out about stuff. Obviously, nobody wants to get explosive diarrhea, but if you're outside of these effective areas and if you're in a state that isn't seeing an unusually high number of cases, you know, you can just take basic food safety precautions. So today I went to Popeye's because I had a hankering for the Popeye's fried chicken sandwich. But I really like the new Popeye's wrap. It has some lettuce and some cheese in it, and it's really good.

2:15:22But I decided not the time to have the wrap today because of the lettuce. So instead I had the sandwich. That was my safety tip. I mean, yeah, I think especially for people, if anyone is like immunocompromised or has risk factors, people particularly young particularly old someone if there's something about your situation that might cause you pause where getting a fairly severe intense bout of diarrhea could be catastrophic for you take every precaution you want if it's just something that make you feel better take every precaution you want if you do just want to act on the data that we do and don't have for a lot of people just you know washing your fruits and veggies and washing your hands is probably a good baseline to be at right see folks how handy it is to have a food detective right here paris's article like all our articles free at consumerreports.org no you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables and people are so mad at me about this online they keep being like did the virus write this?

2:16:27Do you not mask either? And I'm like, guys. It's a parasite and no. I'm just like, saying that yes, you should be allowed to eat fruits and vegetables, things you need to have a balanced diet does not mean I'm saying you can't take whatever precautions you want. I eat Wyman's frozen wild blueberries all the time. And I'm going to presume that cyclospora survives frozen. Why frozen? Why not frozen? have because because blueberries last fresh about three seconds that is true raspberries are faster i just i i mean they're the wild blueberries which i don't have access to uh keep perfectly well frozen and they thaw out nicely and wow i never thought about the fact that you could thaw them out amazing i've always just thought of frozen blueberries they're actually good frozen and smoothie.

2:17:22Yeah, they're good frozen as a matter of fact. Yes, again, consumerreports.org. Jeff Jarvis pick of the week. Okay, a couple quick things. One is that Google has started a new profiles thing for creators. So I went and did it. So if you go to profile.google.com slash at Jeff Jarvis, this is kind of like about me, right? Yeah, so you can link it to your Facebook, Twitter, Instagram blog, and so on. What's the URL, though? Is it? It's what I just said. It's profile.google.com slash at Jeff Jarvis. Uh-huh. Okay. So that's one. And then last week, or I think it was last week, before last, we talked about the French jackets.

2:18:05Yes. That from Alice Karp. Oh, no. Another mention of Alice Karp today. Well, you've now broken the record, ladies and gentlemen. That's our secret word. Introducing Alex Karp. so uh there's a there's a variation on the uh on the jacket which i think might appeal to all of us and our listeners the slow learner dusk jacket made to carry a lot of books oh i have seen this it's got a big pocket for books huge pocket for books multiple pockets for books i do we should all get matching jackets guys i might get this it's still 200 bucks it's not cheap no it does it come oh it does come in other colors oh it doesn't have to be black would you like orange green or blue that's cute yeah and it's got a big we should all get matching intelligent machines letterman jackets they call it they call it anti-work wear because you should go and read and and but why do you need to care what do you ever need to carry five books with you like this clown yeah he doesn't even look happy about it to be honest with you he seems that man looks like he lives in bushwick and is going to ruin your life i have too many books i don't want to read all these books that man is somehow smoking three cigarettes at once in the spell train oh well does she look any happier no i have more determined home and has four to six fine line tattoos on her arm i don't know what that means i'm doing brooklyn discrimination right now yeah you are yeah you are uh ladies and gentlemen we do intelligent machines every wednesday 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern that's 2100 utc although if congress gets its way i don't know it'll all be daylight savings we'll have nothing to talk about because there's no ai too yeah i don't know I don't know.

2:20:07Next week, Nate B. Jones, AI strategist, will join us. His YouTube channel, Nate B. Jones, is incredible. The following week, finally, Henry Blodgett will show up, will join us. I'm excited about that. He's got a novel that involves AI in some way. Ah, okay. And his newsletter involves AI. Is this our first convicted security fraudster on the pod? As far as we know, right? I mean, that can't be true, given the amount of AI boys on this show. but this is the only known one. The only one we know about. And Philip Shoemaker, following that, he is the founder and CEO of Persona Shield. And I've forgotten why that's of interest, but I'm sure it is.

2:20:49There's a reason we booked him. So I'm sure that'll be of great interest. Actually, at some point, I want to get Christina Warren on. She works at GitHub, where she is kind of responsible for Copilot, their AI. And she announced on the show on MacBreak Weekly on Tuesday, the release of their desktop application for Copilot, which is quite nice, quite a nice harness. So those are all upcoming shows. You can watch the show. One more little tip this week? Yes. I went to see the invite yesterday. It's very good. Oh, I can't wait to see that. I hear good things about it. I got to see the Odyssey. You've got five stars in the Guardian.

2:21:24The Odyssey did? The Odyssey did 97 on Rotten Tomatoes. Jeff, do you want to go to the 7 a.m. IMAX Odyssey screening with me? It's probably the only one you'd get into. Is it 70 millimeter film? film it's it is filmed at imax yeah i know but i mean you have to go to a movie theater of which there are only a handful yes no no we're going to the super one yeah yeah you go to 70 millimeter film in brooklyn to see no in uh amc uh is it the real so it's a 70 millimeter it's the super yeah it's the super 70 millimeter i'm axon i saw uh oppenheimer on a 70 millimeter film and it was did i too big it's very large well no no we're talking about 70 millimeter it's the i'm it is it is that no so there's so there are formats and imax is usually distributed digitally but christopher nolan because he is the most influential director of his generation is able to convince his backers to shoot it on imax film oh yes these are the ones that are hundreds of pounds yeah it's actually the first movie to be shot entirely i didn't realize this oppenheimer knows not shot entirely in seven million real air film but this one is actually you know what i want to see every reel is only three minutes long so they can only shoot for three minutes at a time they have to make a special platter sideways platter to hold the film because it's so long and it's projected horizontally it's projected horizontally but uh the movie i want to see they just showed the trailer publicly for the first time in fact was on the world cup broadcast today uh tom just if you want to kick if you want to laugh the tom this is pretty this digger yeah you've never seen tom cruise like this no never ever it is i was quite surprising yes and i did start watching thanks to you uh paris uh spider noir the black oh how is i need to watch that it's good nicholas cage never better really good i just realized i need to re-watch metropolis because it was i haven't seen it yet is it no no no no no the original we all need to also watch megalopolis is it out yet i i don't think you can see it i don't know metropolis was set in 2026 welcome to the future ladies and gentlemen exactly why we're doing this show it's about ai you can watch us live but you don't have to you get on demand versions of the show on our website, twit.tv slash I am audio and video there.

2:23:51There's also a YouTube channel with video, interestingly enough. A great way to share it with friends and family or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. Thanks everybody for joining us. We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bob on. If you like what you heard and you want more of this week's top stories in tech, well, subscribe to Tech News Weekly. Every Thursday, I talk with the journalists making and breaking the tech news.