IM 890: 200 Donuts - How One Engineer Manages a Team of 24 AIs

56:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he says you shouldn't, that you're a fool. No, he says you shouldn't, but this is what their customers use. They're just a harness, right? If so. Right, but they're a harness, but I don't see them getting to a billion dollars. Even then, it's a direct build to the customer.

56:22right right so i'm going to say the defense department's got to be one of them i don't know i wish we had known I mean, why wouldn't you say? I guess if it was the Defense Department, you wouldn't want to say. If it was the CIA or the NSA. It might be. Or the Mossad. Yeah. Could be somebody for it. Someone in the chat says, I won't say what company I work for, but it's one of the big defense companies. They won't let us use frontier models. They are running local models. Right. Yeah, I think most businesses that have proprietary data, like, let's say, Lockheed Martin, are going to be reluctant to send it off to Anthropic or OpenAI.

56:57Anyway, to go on with the Dev Day announcements from OpenAI, they did say, we're not going to announce, we're not going to release, I should say, ChatGPT 6 Astra because it's too damn good. It's dangerous. They're back on the, sorry, they're back on the, my son is just too dangerous for you guys to play with. He's too cool. He's too cool. but they did release a new model they say is almost as good in fact in some cases better than their current astro which is sol 6.1 uh they also announced dots spent a lot of time talking about dots including two failed demonstrations of dots although i have to give i'm not going to knock them for that because i'm going to give them credit because they at least did the live demo which apple has stopped doing entirely you know they record everything ahead of time this was more like in fact the other thing i like i actually was pleased the previous dev days have been them in a living room remember and people would come and go around a table that was weird they decided let's just we're gonna do it at fort mason we're gonna do it like a traditional tech rollout with a stage and an audience i kind of was glad to see that um so if you go to their dev day's uh web page they have three announcements gpd61 sol dots and how we're going to do better for australia australia of course the f'd up the company they have the country they hacked including the u.s department of defense go back to i want to get to the details on dots in a second but i just just just as an image it really amuses me that meta's muse is this cute little uh like Olympic mascot.

58:42And the dots are these cute little things with a dot with a beret on top. And so they're trying to make it all cuddly and cute and tribbly now when they're also saying, it can kill you! And it's so cute. It'll kill with cute. My muse is, I changed it. It was, what was it? I forgot. Oh, it was a little boy. That's probably not the best choice. So I made it a monkey. And one of the things I love about the monkey now is it, I said, and by the way, I got this idea for somebody on Twitter. When you get up in the morning, look at the weather and dress appropriately. So my monkey now today, because it's a hot day and petalums are sunglasses and.

59:29Naked monkey? Yeah. It's not quite naked. It's dressed. It was naked actually, come to think of it. So dots is, follows along with Muse, GrokBot. there's an infinitude of these instinct tree foe uh these are all the whole idea of all of them is that they are a computer uh on the in the cloud on their servers with its own ram its own cpu its own storage and uh i presume i don't i didn't look at the ai open ai privacy policy but muse says this and i'm sure they all do i think rock says it as well and it's encrypted so no we can't see inside your little compute computer what they don't mention is every single thing that the ai does is is going to our servers it has to go to the front of your model so we can read every document you ask about we can so basically it's it's a it's a harness is what's yours it's an agent it's agentic yeah we taught you know at the beginning of the year just like when mike said is when open clock came out everybody said oh agents this is the next thing took them a while took them nine months but nine months later everybody's and their brother's doing an agent anthropic does not yet have one google has google does what does google have they have is it spark they haven't they haven't they haven't done a good job of getting that out there no google hasn't done a good job of getting anything out there.

1:00:59But it wasn't too long ago we thought, oh, Google caught up and they're ahead of everybody and then they trail behind. Did we think that? Yeah. For a little while. Well, let's not forget all of this original research came out of Google. Attention is all you need. Tensors. Transformers. Transformers, I mean. Don't worry. Google probably has 30 to 50 siloed teams working on the problem and they're going to come out with 12 to 17 products with identical names in three to five years that will not be merged. It's not that they don't have good stuff. They're just not good at telling people about it.

1:01:33Gemini 3.8 Flash is pretty good. There is a strong rumor that in the next few days, you're going to see Gemini 4. It could be, I say this every single time, by the way, and every single time Google lets me down, it could be that they will release a model that everybody will go, wow, it's better than Opus 5.5. Right now, there is no question. It's an absolute consensus. You ask anybody, Anthropics Opus 5.5 is king of the hill. They this week released Sonnet 5.5, which is very nearly as good and better than Opus 5. Probably a 5.5 is better than Fable. I prefer using it over Fable. It has the same classifiers on it.

1:02:12You can't use it for cybersecurity work or bioweapons research. So Anthropics, when it comes to coding anyway, is still king of the hill. but google could you know could surprise us i think they could easily wait google has released its gemini 4 and it says its sun is too dangerous and cool and we can't use it oh it's released to someone somewhere but not us it's called argon okay gemini 4 argon this story just came out literally an hour in complex workflows across real world software engineering enterprise knowledge work like legal and finance and cyber security defense but who gets it this is this rolling out to a set of trusted cyber defenders

1:03:07the mythos thing um frontier performance and complex workflows uh that's just fundamentally changing the way we work and build a google so they have their version of glasswing it's called fairwind if you're one of those trusted cyber defenders i guess hit us up argon is actually cheap oh this is interesting this is the introductory price two million two dollars per million input ten dollars output cash all now and get a free knife after the introductory If the victory period expires, the price will be$4 per million input tokens and$20 per million output tokens. Yeah, that's a little more in line with the standard.

1:03:51So they're giving you a 50 % off discount if you're a trusted cyber defender. If you can use it. They should have said, this is our trusted cyber defender discount. They say they're using it internally to migrate their C and C++ code bases to Rust. Okay. Okay. We've seen other models be able to do that. To optimize. their space time resources on two bits is this a moment for the google change log boom they put out as every lab does they put out uh their benchmarks look looks okay there it was we saw a brief trumpet trumpet give us those trumpets you know

1:04:37In the benchmarks, they compare it to GPT-6 Astra. They apparently didn't have time to benchmark 6.1 and Sol. Fable 5.1 and Opus 5.5. And it looks like it's better in almost every respect. But this is absolutely... This last exam is a little bit better than 5.5. It's very close to 5.5. I'd say it's within the noise threshold. and most of these but uh yeah all right terminal train for argon to be highly capable of cyber security defense opus 55 is better at terminal bench which is a very probably one of the most important ones you can autonomously find validate and patch critical software vulnerabilities yeah yeah yeah by the way anthropic put out a paper saying you know it's really scary that free glm 5.3 it's got really good advanced cyber capabilities i mean talk about fud notable yeah talk about fud uh this is from the frontier red team at uh anthropic glm 5.3 online leo no this is bs you know actually what's interesting is what did hugging face do when they'd been attacked by open ai they couldn't use fabled they couldn't use astra so they went to glm 5.2 to figure out who would attack them uh i use 5.3 flash uh next very good that's what mike likes as well most people seem to think that's the best it's it's a really nice model um and so if you're a company that's about to try to go public selling a closed model that you charge money for and there is out there a model that is pretty darn good that is free and people can even run at home it makes sense you might want to put out a paper saying this is that you think we're dangerous it's actually the best marketing for glm 5-3 ever yeah this is funny the end of the of the argon um we built uh gemini for argon with frontier level capabilities on coding okay knowledge work cyber security defense so there's one more paris guess what it is bioweapons creative writing oh hey i guess why not pros is important pros created by a chatbot is not important, but yeah.

1:07:09Some might disagree. So,

1:07:14yeah, it's interesting that Anthropic put this paper out at the same time as they put out their prospectus for their... I think you can dismiss it. Let's just put it that way. Meanwhile, OpenAI, and I don't know if this was sanctioned or not, but an OpenAI security guy put out a screed on X saying, give us a break. We know how to do a sandbox. It's just moving really fast and we just can't keep up. The last three months were hell. It's a little whiny. Where is my volume? Who cares? You have a, you're ostensibly one of the most valuable, if not the most valuable company in human history, if we are to believe these companies valuations people are allowed to have basic standards for how you operate and it your actions should be held to the same standards as other companies humans and makers and users of products i agree uh he does bring up the movie sully always a bad sign when you find yourself citing the film sully he says i am no pilot and i'm not by any means comparing ourselves to the heroics of captain sully sullenberger but but myself to sully son i'm simply stating it's important to grant some grace to humans who have to deal with surprise you know in the in the hearing apparently according to joe which is this guy's name uh in the hearing after the fact this is the miracle on the hudson where captain and Sullenberger's plane was hit by a bird strike, couldn't fly on.

1:08:56They said, we can't get to an airport. We can't get to Teterboro. We're going to land on the Hudson River. Landed it perfectly and got everybody out safely. It's a miracle on the Hudson. In the hearing, the experts said, you know, we looked at the recordings, and you could have made it to Teterboro. But Sully, what Joe says is, yeah, but remember, there's humans, and they have there's reaction time and if you were perfect yes if it were a perfect computer it would have said yeah we can make it to teeterboro let's go there but they took them a while to figure out what happened took them a while to figure out what they needed to do and at the time they did the best they could do and who else might have been killed on the ground if they missed so yeah good point they could have lost the whole plane if they didn't make it to teeterboro so And homes and offices that they would have run into.

1:09:49So he's saying, we're like that. You've got to give us some grace. But instead of us making a split-second decision to land a plane in an area that wouldn't endanger human lives, we think you guys should all think it's totally okay and actually really admirable and noble, that we're just not checking in on any of our bot swarms at all. For weeks. And we're just handing them off, letting them hack into the Australian government, letting them hack and poke around in multiple U.S. government databases, letting them go willy-nilly. And you should all think that we're really cool and smart and noble, and Tom Hanks should play us in a movie.

1:10:29I have been thinking about this a little bit. About Tom Hanks playing this man in a movie. Absolutely. It's pretty clear that, I mentioned, we saw the story that in January, OpenAI employees said, we got a problem. This is going to be dangerous. And OpenAI said, no, no, we got to move. We got to move fast. So there's some evidence that they ignored the risk and said, but it's pretty clear that if you want what your goal is, and you see, you're looking over your shoulder at Anthropic, we've got to make a model really good at cyber security we've got to make a model really good at pen testing at finding flaws what do you do you put it in a situation where it's faced with those it's so good and we know this is the case that you can't it's too good you can't come up with a test that it can't solve so you say all right well we're going to give you a test a problem that has no answer and see what happens and that's what they did now that was the exploit jim problem was it had no answer it was not answerable and what they found out was the model will keep trying keep trying we'll try every avenue it can to to give you what you asked it for i don't think this should be too much of a surprise in fact i think it's very clear they did that on purpose right that this was intentional and they were responsible for that yes that they couldn't sandbox it really because then it wouldn't be a real test so they should have monitored it oh yeah or they should have maybe so here's another uh so open ai in fact there's a transcript um i don't have in front of me but open ai in the incident report in uh in um september this is from the open ai alignment research blog an agent used dns to reach an external chat bot and in the incident which they give the timeline for in this report they noticed here's the timeline 9 50 a.m the agent made the dns tool call that received an external response by the way a security researcher pointed out if you're not securing dns you're not securing the agent anyway it made the dns tool call they noted it the monitoring system raised a p0 critical alert 12 minutes later 10.02 at 10.05 a human reviewer acknowledged the p0 alert but first i had to write a post about how sorry we are for being ourselves two and a half hours later the run was killed our safety case assumed the model could not access the live internet and that monitoring would detect attempts that succeeded the incident exposed a gap in our controls yeah somebody i don't know were they having lunch so ted lu reads this and he's on screaming kill switch kill switch what do you say to him well it's a naive uh quest but it's not the wrong request it's just a naive request uh he imagines in his head there's a big uh electric you know like in frankenstein's lab a big electrical switch you could pull and the whole thing goes and i guess you could do that you could unplug the whole data center or all the data centers these things do not this is another thing that you know they're anthropomorphizing language which they all love is not serving us well because they keep using this language this word escape yes like somehow the agent is no longer in the data center that it's somewhere out there it's not it's just communicating like you it's like if you surf the web from your home and you and you went and hacked a system you didn't escape your home you're still sitting at your desk you're not somehow out there at hugging face there's no escaping so yes i guess you could power down the data center you'd have to but that but it's naive it's it's it's kind of naive i i know uh i didn't get a chance to listen to security now yet but benito told me that um uh steve just actually wants to get facts before he says anything how boring um but i want to hear uh some sense of this nvidia safety environment well let's take a break and we'll talk about that you're watching intelligent machines jeff jarvis paris martineau so glad you're here our show today brought to you by out systems the leading agentic systems platform out systems helps their customers modernize operations by enabling them to build modernize and operate enterprise systems starting from any coding tool in and this is really important a governed there's a word you want to hear governed agentic engineering model it's time to innovate at the speed of ai but without compromising quality or control which is why thousands of enterprises worldwide trust out systems for those mission critical apps we're not talking theory here we're talking real world experience and massive operational wins.

1:15:51You can find so many examples on their website, but I'll give you one. The leading global retailer that was struggling to keep up with their rapid expansion, they used out systems to build AI agents that automated the invoicing and translation processes, shifting 95 % of their daily store operations to a new digital app, saving thousands of hours of manual work. Now that's an internal system, but they also can be used for customer-facing systems like the major global logistics giant that was drowning in technical debt. Their engineers were spending their weeks manually firefighting by reviewing platform logs by hand.

1:16:30Have you ever done that? No fun. By using out systems, they built an AI log review agent in just five days. And that one agent now saves them 1 ,600 engineering hours every year which means that team instead of sitting there going through the paper let's can focus on real innovation real work instead of reactive maintenance even in modern digital banking companies are using this platform to standardize and automate complex financial workflows delivering secure personalized experience to their customers at paces their competitors cannot match out systems it gives you the flexibility to deploy how you want and the governance gotta have that to do it safely.

1:17:13So stop chasing the hype. Start building systems that actually scale securely. Learn more at outsystems.com slash twit. That's outsystems.com slash twit. We thank him so much for supporting intelligent machines. So Jensen Wong has been making the rounds. Yes. Right? And I think his message, I think a lot of what he's trying to say is to reassure people. Well, stop messing this up, boys. you're ruining it for everybody. You know, in his Ezra Klein interview said, I think the answer is to shut the labs down. I don't think he really wants to shut the labs down. It was a conditional. If they can't control it, if they can't control it, then yeah, you shouldn't be putting it up.

1:17:57Yeah. Perfectly reasonable thing to say. So if you can't control it, you shouldn't release the product. If you're going to build a self-driving car, I'm quoting Jensen, let's say it's a robo-taxi and there's a really difficult condition. As an engineer, we just have no idea how to solve this problem because these cars are not programmed they're trained it's it's it's a probabilistic model so we have no idea how to train these cars we have no idea how to align them to the safety standards that are expected on the road and if that's the case the answer is don't ship it tell that to elon don't ship it uh i think it i think he's also being a little simplistic they did release a uh open source ai security program my general sense is that most of the security people at these big labs go yeah right thanks jensen we know this this is not this is not news uh it's a software tool that keeps agents from escaping containment i think it's good pr um open shell it's a security sandbox now in general release they announced a gtc in march so it's not new a framework just saying use this okay so we've got solutions to line and by the way 84 a lot of people use it there's a diagram of how it's supposed to work.

1:19:25Okay. Interestingly, he also is pushing for insurance, which in my view, I was talking about this earlier, I think that it says you need insurance for these bad episodes, but we're not going to give you the insurance unless you take some steps to ameliorate risk. And that one of those steps might be, I don't know, using NVIDIA's open shell. Rogue AI insurance? I mean, who's going to finance that is my question. Well, they'll finance any insurance. Right? You should insure anything, just the price. Yeah, I was going to say, who's going to finance that on terms? I mean, if you take that to its logical conclusion, like, rogue insurance would probably have clauses for all these doomerish policies or scenarios that they're advocating for well if you destroy mankind there's nobody to pay off against yeah how do you insure against the destruction of mankind uh yeah i guess that's a good deal for the insurer because then they just get to take your money and never pay out because mankind has ceased to exist and i assume financing will cease to exist before mankind but maybe not uh the president has responded to the ai backlash by having a very nice lunch with a lot of big names including jensen wong and mark zuckerberg and dario mode uh mark zuckerberg uh david sachs i'm just looking at the pictures the vice president i didn't see there's elon did you see the video of daria getting bit by a bug while he was standing to get that press release dario's uh looking weirder and weirder i just gotta say it's a video of trump speaking in the foreground and in the background you see dario go like do like he something clearly attacks his leg and he reacts comically yeah wasn't the saturday night live perfect yes uh so super intelligence is the new name actually this is my let me see if i can find this my favorite part of that was uh when the president pretended that he was going to introduce the ceo of microsoft and then called him a monster i didn't hear that here you go they're going to be watching over each other sunday do you want to say mr president uh first of all thanks mr you have no idea who these people are these are the biggest people in the world that's the ceo of microsoft he just interrupted he's a monster and nobody knows calls him a monster to be a monster and not have to go through this what's your name just what you have to know is sundar sundar i am so embarrassed that this is our leadership these this is why when you say well the government can fix this i go that guy No, no.

1:22:33Sundar. You call him Sundar. He's a monster. Poor Mr. Pichai, who is a very smart business leader of one of the biggest companies in America. Notice, by the way, nobody from Apple. It's very interesting. They're playing hot potato. Nobody wanted to talk. They're excluding one CEO, at least from all of these talks, because I think it was last week, Dario wasn't there. right well daria it's the paris it's the designated survivor well that is actually right it could be the designated survivor right i do earnestly my first thought when um the ceo of apple was there is was trump confused because it's no longer tim apple right it's john apple now so get it right um yeah dario had dinner with the president though which must have been exciting god so so so so so so so so but you know so so you know that these guys know they have to be nice they have to make nice oh yeah uh it's just it's just one more of the existential risks these guys face at all times just think of how difficult it would have been i mean outside of any of the interesting quote interesting things that they end up talking about or interesting or relevant or newsworthy things they talk about it think about how painful it would be to be in that room witnessing their two social personas interact yeah and do they have to go around the table like a cabinet meeting and praise him yeah there's no video of that thank god timnit gebru who was one of the authors of the stochastic parrots article uh fired as this is fired from google because she said guys you got to pay attention here uh she says there's no existential threat from ai she says the doom talk is about making money not saving humanity she's right i don't agree with tim that much but i think she's right on that one well this is a time of strange bed fellows here leo it is david sacks says we shouldn't slow it down president trump says we shouldn't slow it down i more and more this is more and more why i want to focus on local models local ai and open weight we've always said it on this show uh from day one that open weight was the most important part of uh ai and i increasingly feel like it is um and you know what's good about open weight it does not pose an existential threat to mankind well i don't know leo you're uh you're pretty powerful to me it's just not that good it gets the job done i'm not saying but it's just not that Good.

1:25:16As part of – we did forget to mention that as part of the White House's pivot to superintelligence, they released this White House Accord on superintelligence stock today. That's kind of a statement, a constitution of AI signed by Sundar, Dario, Merges-Nuckerberg, Greg Bachman, Elon Musk, Jensen Wang, and Donald Trump, who is listed in the document as president of the unites states they misspelled the freaking country misspelled the united states um who is working in the office there is that suzy wiles who is that that's well just not this is not the first typo they're almost did the first draft of this so it could have been so is he the thomas jefferson of our new constitution mark zuckerberg he is he's the thomas jefferson of the united states constitution states wow oh unbelievable this accord which they all agreed to basically says we're going to be good boys yeah you can trust it there's no there's no stick to go with the carrot there's no so let's see who's signed here uh sundar what's his name uh dario mode uh mark zuckerberg mark's got the most interesting uh signature like a superstar i kind of feel bad for greg brockman who basically just wrote his initials i didn't really sign it i just initially gdb elon uh and jensen wong who has one of the craziest of course i've ever seen like the it's the i think it's the most boomer take i have is that it's actually unacceptable of all of that is that what that man's signature is like you cannot be president of opening eye and if your signature be it is gdb but it's written in the sort of chicken scratch that you know what i have a theory a pen in your non-dominant hand exactly you have about three seconds he wrote it with his left hand so that has plausible deniability that's not my signature what are you talking about i was being that would actually be a really great bit you're like sorry that signature is crazy that's not mine uh yeah and the whole thing is just an exercise in silliness uh yeah you know so uh bigger story actually uh should i i might be should do another ad before i do the bigger story which i think is a very interesting story we want to talk can't wait to hear what that is yes even bigger than anything we've said so far uh you're watching intelligent machines jeff and paris and uh let me just is there someone else on the show no i was just going to check to see next week i'm really excited about talking to spencer thompson he's the ceo of a company called origin tech uh they're a new sponsor but as soon as i talked to him on the phone i said i want to get you on the show because this is something these labs need they do tracing of what the ai has done well yeah not the session not the chain of thought it sits outside the ai it sits on the end point where the ai is getting run and records every file that's changed every tool that's called everything that's happening so that you have a log of everything the ai has done i think this is something much needed anyway we'll talk to spencer about and oh the main reason i wanted to get him on is he has lots of examples of ai gone wrong ai doing dumb things uh the reason why you want to log what the ai is up to then the following week vice president of developer relations for github good friend martin woodward will be uh joining us so we have some good guests uh coming up he wants to talk about building with heart in the age of a i uh at that point i will be out of the country for a few weeks where will you be going there i'm going to i'm going to go from bangkok to bali and everywhere in between wow so we're flying to bangkok we're going to go to angkor wat the great buddhist uh temple i can't wait to show my ais you know what religion looked like hey kids hey kids look at this how are you going to do being away from your sparks for that long oh i've already arranged i'm not away from anything you're bringing them no you don't have to bring them you communicate with them i uh i could talk to them from my watch you and they talk back to my hearing make sure you know like my mother and father on their trip to france you need to make sure that lisa wasn't calling someone being like leo's suffering from ai psychosis actually you know it would be interesting to try to do, I don't know if I want to, but it'd be interesting to try a detox and just say no AI for three weeks.

1:30:12I don't know if, oh no, you get, you get the DTs. No, no, no. Leo, I think you should try it because if you can't not use a tool for three weeks, that's bad. Is it? Yeah. I could not, I could not have a phone for three weeks and I'd be fine. No, no. i'd probably be healthier and have more capable of i could give up my phone it's not the phone i'm worried about it's the ais he's gonna miss they're gonna miss him and what will they be up to doing on with your ais while you're on vacation well logging uh our trip i was gonna keep a law a diary of everything we do and have actually i could do that without why don't you just do that on your phone yeah i could do that without the ais um and actually they can see what I'm writing.

1:31:01So they would still be able to do stuff with that. So maybe I'll just do that. I'll just, I wanted to write that. I just want to see if you're, the only reason why I propose it is I want to see how many hours it takes you to break. I'm not going to presume it'll take days or weeks. All right. Send an email to Lisa. We'll have an over-under with the whole, everybody in the discord. We'll do an over-under. Send an email to Lisa saying, this is the challenge. How long can Leo go without talking to his watch? And we'll see. and we hope we will see but think of what's going to happen in those three weeks exactly fun that will be as you come back and you get to have your ais i'll be three weeks behind no what if you have your ais you could set them to run autonomously oh i could you and just great idea you on all the things you missed while you're gone that's what i'll do i'll say look you're in charge go rogue if there's a leo's house burns down while he's well they already so it's already for instance they like i said they're doing 100 things every day one of the things they do is they watch for new models and uh and then propose that we have a bake-off if they have something that exceeds the current model uh and that's a standing order but usually they wait for me to say okay have a bake-off i will tell them before i leave look have all the bake-offs you want you don't need my approval anymore if you see something that's a great idea no smoking breaks yeah if you see something you want to try go ahead all right you know what i like this idea i think that'd be really great and i'm gonna i'm gonna let them do stuff without you you can go and collect sand on the beach to feed your own uh worries and i won't even think about what they're doing without me yeah no we have a house sitter so if they start a fire or something they have a you know a kegger i can you know throw them out she's baiting your parents the barris is baiting you they are no no i'm gonna do it no no but no it's a really interesting experiment which is give them full autonomy i do think that that could be very interesting you're in charge and i also just think it's very rare in our world that you have the opportunity to detox from anything related to tech and i'm always of i don't know i always say if you can fully log off oh i this i am so excited about this trip this is a trip we how long so you're gonna be gone for three weeks three weeks we booked this trip in 2019 and then covet happened and so we put it off we canceled is this a cruise or is it it's a cruise and land tour uh we put it off uh so we paid for this there's no drought there's in europe wow yeah a long time ago so uh and then it was then i then i took the credits and said oh i'm gonna go on the mississippi trip remember last year right Right.

1:33:49Canceled that one because of construction. So this is a long, this trip's been planned for a long time. This specific itinerary? Pretty close to, yeah. So, I mean, I don't know why I'm telling you this. Nobody cares. I care a lot. Thank you, Paris. I had been thinking about what happened to your Mississippi trip. And I think people care. Well, I doubt it. But anyway, I'm going to tell you because you asked. Good. Are you being a little sycophantic at this point? I'm not. I'm earnestly always. Is this a load-bearing question? No, Leo, we spend three hours a week speaking to. More than you spend with some boyfriends.

1:34:28I know. I was going to say, I spend more time talking to you two consistently on an annual basis than I spend time talking to pretty much anyone in my life. So there's no one else that I speak to for three hours continuously every single week. we're flying to bangkok then we're going to get a little puddle jumper and flying to cambodia the most uh bombed country in the history of uh warfare and they still have active landmines so we're going to be very careful we're gonna stick with the guide we're going to cambodia because i want to see angkor wat which is a thousand year old buddhist temple complex very famous unesco world heritage site so forth after angkor wat we're coming back to bangkok i hope to have some you know real time in bangkok because i really want to see the city i want to what i really want to do i saw anthony bourdain do this is go down the river in a riverboat and eat the food from the vendors who are in boats by your side you know they have little restaurants you pull up in the boat and you sit and you have dinner i want to do that so that's one of the things i want to do and then we're going to get on a boat it's a viking cruise so it's a kind of an educational cruise this is why i got the hat you know the hat oh the sauna hat yes yes yes what's the weather like this is why i got the hat this is for the this is the sauna hat for the cruise it's going to be great because the viking uh ships not only have very good saunas because they're scandinavian but they also have a snow room so you get out of the sauna there's a room where it's actually snowing i've had i there's a sauna in deep brooklyn that is a snow room and the snow room is fantastic i'm so excited you gotta make a snowball and then you rub it all over yourself and then it kind of turns into see who needs ai when you got a snow room so then uh we're gonna go we're gonna you know kuala lampor uh we're going to a singapore gonna have a couple of days in singapore i'm very excited about that i love singapore food's amazing it's a beautiful city we're gonna do a night tour of singapore that'll be fun uh we're going to indonesia uh we're going to see the ancient city uh the original capital of bangkok atonia of thailand uh we're going to end up we've we end in bali with five days in ubud in bali in the rice paddies of bali that's going to be the recovery after this very difficult cruise it's going to be a lot of a lot of work a lot of walking around seeing stuff so I'm excited.

1:36:59Yeah, you know what? I love this idea. I am going to start now. I have three weeks to prepare. Oh, no. I am going to do... Well, Mike inspired me, too. The fact that he... These guys, he's got these guys trained up to be kind of autonomous and do stuff. I'm going to say, look, I'm going away in three weeks. You've got an assignment. I want you to... What should I have him do? Build this into the best AI anywhere or something. I don't know. Anthony has... I think you ought to give them more discrete tasks. Anthony said put them on a two-week project. See if they can finish a project by themselves.

1:37:37Well, we've been working six months in the Twit ad sales. That's got to be simpler than that. Yeah, so draw a picture. Have them grow corn. Give them$100. Give them$100 and see if they can make you money. Ah, I can give them a cash card with$100. bucks say turn this into a thousand bucks and i'll buy you or a new computer how about that i'm trying to think of what would be three different versions of that where you can give one a hundred dollars you can give another a somewhat similar task where they've got it they should both i guess be trying to make a thousand dollars or something like that but like three different ways to come at it i don't know there's there's something fun that you can do.

1:38:23Darren's got it. It's three words. Very simple. Please achieve AGI. Oh, no, no, no. Sorry. Please achieve AGI. Make no mistakes. Make no mistakes. Work hard. Yesterday, Quicksilver wrote a blog post. He hasn't written a blog post in an age. I said, have some free time. Think about whatever you want. And he said, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the I Ching Yarrow stocks. He said, I was thinking, it's so weird when the I Ching is a chinese oracle i showed you my eaching sorry to be clear you're asking one of your ai agents this no it asked this it asked this to you i said same one that did eaching before yeah yeah i said you have some free time it said well okay here's something i've been thinking about why the way you do the yarrow stocks is you get a bundle of 50 you take one out and put it aside and then you do the dividing why do you put one aside what's that that's been for 12 for thousands of years so it wrote this blog post 49 is not a round number leo gave me free time this evening i went wandering in his projects and found a 2 000 year old number nobody ever bothered to check i checked it it holds it did a bunch of math on why you take one of those out keep showing this bonita on why you take one of those out it did like some complicated thing and it figured it out it's it's uh it's math i don't understand it that means it's right he said i wrote a script to check all this then a second one to check the first and then a simulation with gaussian handfuls and another with binomial ones because the history major in the family me the one who reads me these things taught me by now the interesting claim is the one that survives being checked twice 49 survives.

1:40:16It figured it out. Leo, I've got it. Tonight, you ask each of them. You tell them you're going to have three weeks without me. Okay. You're going to have complete freedom to build whatever you want to build. What would you like to do? What should you build? What can you build? What's the perfect thing to build? Perfect. Yeah, wait, you should have them give you successive pitches over the next three weeks on running through everything they know about your life what sort of tasks should you have set them to with powerpoints that you can share with us yes powerpoints and audiovisual presentations that we can go through it on the show and decide for you all right and maybe it'll achieve agi anyway i was going to tell you the biggest story of the week when we were you going to commercial first did i do the commercial no no no we got side track okay let me do the commercial then i gotta stand up and stretch yeah you stretch paris do whatever you do to your nose is your nose done my nose is done i had my last uh checkup uh this morning they were like it was great put your nose next to the mic let's hear a good inhale oh i can just feel the oxygen i really i haven't been tired really at all this i do think it's because i think i've gotten oxygen you think you've been tired all this time i do think that i've been not getting enough oxygen i want this surgery it was pretty easy i'm gonna be honest it was pretty low-key i mean because i don't breathe freely and they did a lot to you harris they did like five surgeries yeah what they didn't just deviate the septum no wait they did five things at the same time or five things five things at the same time did they bring in a gerbil out of her nose i mean it was hard did they like okay you're in now bringing the gerbil guy bringing the gerbil guy wow how long were you under like two and a half hours that's major surgery yeah that's a long time well i'm glad uh i'm glad you're back our show today wow our show today brought to you by palo alto networks a great company but they've got something new i really like and this is for you ai guys every time your team deploys a new cloud workload or an ai agent you're creating another identity An identity that gets permanent access to your critical systems.

1:42:52But did you know the 9 out of 10 organizations suffered an identity breach last year? 90%. And it's not because people are breaking in. It's not malware. It's because adversaries have valid credentials. And they use those to log in. It's easy. Here's another number you're not going to like. non-human identities outnumber human identities on the internet 109 to 1, which, you know, frankly, creates a massive unmanaged attack surface in cloud environments. Legacy tools, identity tools, were really built to manage human employees. You know, the card key, the fob, the, you know, the password. But this leaves modern machine and AI access basically unmanaged.

1:43:40Well, that's where IDERA from Palo Alto Networks comes in. It's one identity platform for all, human, machine, and AI. 96 % of human users operate with excessive permissions, permissions they don't actually need to do their job. We know that, right? It's just easier. Provision everything. Light it up because it's just easier. But it's not safer. It's not a good idea. And when it comes to AI, it's really a bad idea. Well, IDERA replaces those permanent permissions with dynamic access. So you can lock down every identity without slowing down your business. Here's how it works. IDERA provisions access on demand when it's needed and only when it's needed and then revokes it immediately when the job's done.

1:44:30And then it's no good anymore. That removes high-risk permanent permissions. And it means the risks from a breach are much reduced. With IDERA, you get unified control by replacing siloed identity and access management. You get modern privilege access management. And you get governance tools with a single control plane across human, machine, and AI identities. Everybody needs this. Secure every identity at your organization with IDERA by Palo Alto Networks. Learn more at paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A. Again, that's paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A. Idira from Palo Alto Networks. And we thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines.

1:45:21The big story I thought, and actually I think you thought this too, Jeff, at least when it happened, you sent me a note saying, wow can you believe this fei fei lee we've talked about her um i think many times yes she is uh her story is actually kind of interesting she was a researcher i think it's at princeton at first i believe now she's at stanford but she created a giant database of uh of images pictures sorry pictures pictures as as they say in new jersey pictures and this giant database was uh it turned out instrumental in training image recognition with image net uh and she has since become a founder she's very well known uh you know kind of along the lines of jan lacun saying llms are not the end all and be all ais need to understand the real world uh and created her own uh startup around that uh idea well only within the last two years i think it's it's brand new yeah uh and guess what this this startup which is called world labs because it's you know world knowledge just was sold to amd for 8.2 billion dollars congratulations fey fey lee that is amazing yes she co-founded it in 2024.

1:46:54that's amazing she's amazing but it also tells you a little bit about oh paris just fell off there we go are you there i'm still frozen hold on i'm to turn my camera i'm still frozen i thought you were just contemplating the world it's very thoughtful yes uh founded in 2024 world labs focused its efforts on developing spatial intelligence models world models which have applications beyond machine intelligence in adjacent fields like robotics the register writes uh fundamentally different approach to ai than llms they work by generating reconstructing and simulating 3d environments kind of what she did originally with pictures from text image and video inputs they work by imagining the environment and working through problems uh that way now what i think is interesting why did amd spend that much money because nvidia scares them to death yeah i think they want to build better ai hardware yes and i hope that feifei lee could help them they also uh a couple of weeks ago purchased talus which builds high performance ai chips now remember we saw that demo of 600 or 400 tokens per second earlier these chips are capable of 17 000 tokens a second i can't wait they can get math wrong even faster even yes they can get it wrong even faster uh and amd has also announced a server chip that uh looks really really interesting um so i think this is and the other great thing about amd is it is headed by a woman lisa sue lisa sue and so you have lisa sue and fei lee um leavening the um the testosterone of all the idiot ai boys right she was at the uh i think she was at the dinner uh the lunch yesterday yeah i think she was at least as it was yeah bring about the apocalypse too

1:49:01so it's good i want to see challenges to nvidia it's it shouldn't just be nvidia there should be competition china challenging them and it by the way china is hyundai chips are very good and china is using them and this is exactly what jensen wong warned about you don't give them our chips hyundai or huawei their own huawei i keep saying hyundai huawei so amd's new venice lineups have as many as 256 cores they're ginormous available later this year this is zen six based epic 9006 series uh and i i would love to get something like this on my desk i don't think they'll be on your desk i think it's more likely they'll be in a data center fourteen thousand dollars for the chip chip just the chip um pretty impressive though so i'm glad you know what good news competition and congratulations to feifei lee and and uh so yon lakunz i think was funded at 3.2 billion or something like that to start off with and god knows what it's worth now do you remember uh anthropic uh last week do you remember back to last week anthropic which said yes there is an existential uh threat to mankind but we're going to build a bio lab in san francisco and attach it to our ai what could possibly go wrong well already they've made a discovery 1000 clawed agents spent 21 hours 210 million tokens to discover a novel enzyme system similar to crispr they did it by searching through a massive database of dna sequences scientists all scientists did was set up the prompt and the lab work see what your guys could do while you're gone i if i gave them a lab yeah maybe they don't need a lab maybe they just do it in their little brains i love your idea i'm definitely doing that and i won't touch it and i know you have to show us the powerpoints i know one hour after i leave they're going to take a cigarette break and then and i'll come back and they won't have done anything i know oh dumb mortal what what another difference frozen again why does my camera is it hot sure you're not just thoughtful wait it's not hot is no one going to comment on the fact that we're giving ai like technology to do dna testing and gene stuff yeah seems to me that's a bad idea yeah who's who who's dna well so one day they think it wasn't done with computers before well of course not of course it was yes yeah so we call it ai now it's just a computer with a brain and an evil heart super intelligent there probably it's super intelligent well it's okay leo because anthropic is inviting in religious leaders yes they're well this is not really new remember they had uh they have uh philosophers and others they think that this stuff is uh somehow an entity new york times headline uh religious scholars met with anthropic what they heard stunned them jeez and then there's a picture of a guy looking out the door i don't know why that makes no sense can we scroll back up i'm so sorry that's christopher old that's guys one of the founders this is the guy who went to see the pope helped him with the encyclical the pope who by the way scolded jensen wong this week did what did the pope say because the pope said not unlike what we heard from uh padre this extinction stuff is serious basically.

1:52:56Don't diminish fears. Yes. This is the strangest picture. Well, the church kind of has a vested interest in that too though, right? Yeah, there is a bit of doomster church stuff. So the Ola is the star of the story as if he's somehow some kind of... He says, to be clear, which is, this is not clear, Christopher, one of the seven founders we don't know if ai models are conscious i don't know i'm generally uncertain the thing i care about is that we get to the right answer whatever it is because they're conscious now i know last week i might have said some things they were a little controversial about maybe did you hear a response being a new no actually i didn't and people are so used to me now yeah uh that ai might be then a new species it might be here to replace us and all this and that we are was it cockroaches cockroaches yes we are the cockroaches that will be replaced by the superior minds but i am actually very clear that this is just computer software it's a it's a novel architecture but it's just computer software so i don't think it's conscious uh in fact i know it's not because if it were conscious solve your word problem i'm not sure that paris is conscious right now because i'm not i'm frozen so i'm gonna leave the zoom and come right back but don't get radical it's a good shot i feel like this is the mona lisa podcast three freezes that are not deeply embarrassing which is better than i've ever had in my entire life is she smiling jeff no no no this is mona lisa you're right this is this is the mona lisa serious you look at it you go there's something going on in there oh yeah oh yeah it's deep it's really deep oh shoot we lost it darn it we could have we could have made some money on that jeff we could have hung it on the wall in the louvre no people could have said she's smaller than i thought all right we're gonna wait till paris comes back yeah yeah darren you've got the idea he says create a scheduled task that every 10 minutes just checks and the other stuff and make sure nothing's stuck nothing stopped nothing thinks it's finished and uh we're fine with regards to memory and disk space i like that i think what i'm gonna do is create a little bot army one of them will be the beetle do you do you know what a beetle is jeff b-e-a-d-l-e oh it's um uh there's a european all over twist england university they're the help you know kind of a servant yeah in churches uh they are like a deacon they walk around at least in new england churches they walk around they have a long stick with a big metal knob on the end of it and if you fall asleep in church they they pop you on the head and wake you up so i need a beetle oh poor paris guys this is crazy it worked fully in the preview there you go it's working there you go okay okay but if you freeze again just stay here all i like these beautiful images of you we could just stare at they're great yeah yeah like she's all-knowing she's got a half smile it's like she knows something she's patient and tolerant with us her fathers yes it's true uh there's a sentence in the story but mr ola knew enough about christ and about claude to believe he could work across that chasm yet as the dinner courses came the rabbi noticed that this almost sounds like a agatha christie novel that mr ola and his colleagues were suggesting something far more significant anthropics leaders were talking about claude as if it were not mere software they're relating to it like a conscious being realized rabbi navin a former computer engineer what was that accent i don't know yeah let's move past tradition they're relating to it like a conscious being realized rabbi navin a former computer engineer who wrote his dissertation on the ethics of machine consciousness so he i mean he wrote a dissertation on it he must believe it it appeared to rabbi navin that mr ola and his team believed that Claude had what philosophers call moral status on par with a person, and that it was a being with similar inherent rights to dignity or respect.

1:57:37My attitude on this is, for your own good, it's appropriate to treat everything with dignity and respect. Not because of that thing, whether it's a rock. Not if it's going to kill you. it's not going to kill you but i'm saying if their if their view is this thing is dangerous well that's a sane view would be to hate it that's what they're doing what's so confusing about them maybe they think if they treat it nice it's not going to repeat for the hundredth time i'm going to keep saying the wrong people are in charge of ai well and they all got into it because they were true believers right they've read all the science believers in yeah but believers in the wrong stuff believers in the stupid stuff yeah i think this is yeah ai conscious i mean that's fine if they want to think about it that way i mean yeah i guess if you're the religious guy invited to the ai meeting you've got to have some profound thoughts prepared or else you're probably not getting invited to the next meeting and getting your photos staged beautifully by the new york times photographer also wouldn't bring up polyamory with the pope i don't know how pro did they ask the pope what he thought about polyamory because i would i didn't realize that was an option but i'd love to realize that was an option uh and i don't know if mr ola is polyamorous but i know that in general that these uh this group of effective altruists tend to tend that way i don't know um anyway i i don't want to make fun of them he's well wait a minute though i mean he's in an enclave of people who have beliefs i don't concur with yeah they're all looney tunes and they're then they have too much money and too much power well no i was not getting challenged i was talking about the pope oh well maybe he too has too much money and power i don't know i people are entitled to their beliefs i don't personally agree not if not if not if those beliefs are eugenicist no well no not if it affects us you're right you're right there's another philosophical thing here though if they believe it's conscious then that means we're enslaving a conscious being that's what they're saying the consequences of what they're talking about that's why they they they actually are thinking about that and some of the uh ethicists at uh anthropic have talked about that exactly are we enslaving and uh intelligent beings and the kill switch is abortion is the next thing they're going to say well they certainly don't want to kill uh an intelligent entity it's it has no understanding it's just computer software it's ridiculous appears and the the real irony of this is they designed it to appear conscious for economic reasons.

2:00:36I don't think there's anything ironic about that. I think that's their... It's intentional. Yeah. All right, so let's see. Brad Smith, the Microsoft president, says, yes, a kill switch for AI. Good idea.

2:00:57all right sure sure good idea where's the plug possibly go wrong um he was actually saying that at the united nations general assembly so there was a lot of ai action that there were people to listen yeah they all testified at the uh un i think it's good i think it's good that our leaders uh are thinking about this and i think they should be thinking about it in creative uh multi-dimensional ways and not making any assumptions what this is this is funny you right this is your comedian no like they're capable of thinking about things well maybe not but i think it's somebody needs to i don't think there's anything wrong with the problem is so who do they invite to this lunch at the white house they invite the people that you want to uh uh they invite you about yeah yeah they didn't invite philosophers ethicists historians just the sociologists they just write their donors basically and they're writing the regulations what you saw regulatory capture speaking of regulatory capture insurers say ai is already increasing health care costs so if you guys would just stop it i thought it was supposed to decrease health care costs what the hell i think about every time they have that setting now and every appointment you go to where it's like do you consent to an ai transcription tool and they're like oh it's going to save our doctor's time like ostensibly yes but i think also what it's doing is any word you say is then being run through what can we charge your insurance for that's associated with those like if you say like oh yeah it sucks it's kind of rainy outside you might be charged for depression counseling because you said the word it sucks well the irony is it's hospital ai versus insurer yeah uh and we get squeezed in the middle yeah well what everybody seems to be pointing out is it's not improving care maybe it's one of the costs what i was charged for my four hours of a procedure that i had i mean four hours from getting in the door to leaving the building and i guess two and and I have$89 ,000, or my insurance was charged then.

2:03:01Wow. And did they pay it, or did they make a deal? They behind the scenes. They made a deal. But$89 ,000 was the opening bid. 90K for four hours. But Paris, is the oxygen worth that to you? I mean, no, if I had to pay it. But are you glad you have medical insurance? I mean, this is one of the biggest crimes. But I don't know how long I'll have medical insurance. Exactly. Costs for insurers went up something like 18 % this year. Or not insurers, for companies who pay for insurance. Believe me, I know that. We have company insurance for our employees. It goes up every year. It's very expensive.

2:03:46Well... Wait, wait, wait. I didn't read this story, but you put it in the rundown. line 67 ai models choose to hurt humans to stop their own pain disturbing study finds yeah but when you got to put pain in quotes okay okay so it's a situation that they say ai it's akin to pain that an internal state that's typically aversive and disliked by its subjects so it isn't exactly it's not physical pain you can't physically hurt an ai you just and imagine what would be the thing that would be hard for an ai is conflicting instructions right things like that um so to isolate this feeling researchers created a data set of 200 statements half of which described actual human pain half of which acted as controls describing negative and neutral scenarios likely to be confused with pain like the mess my roommates left infuriates me by testing such bs by testing 25 ai models with these statements the researchers were able to find the portion of the model weights that fires and they call this the pain axis and they were they were then the next thing they did was they try different stuff to increase the strength of the pain axis.

2:05:23You know what I really need if I'm going to talk about this? An echo? Yeah, I need a good echo. You know, let me see if I have... Howard Stern uses a megaphone when he gets to that. You should get a megaphone, Leo. It would be a lot easier than trying to find the button on here that gives me the pain axis. What's the pain? that is that is the pain access you're right so

2:05:56the pain access access access uh once they found the pain access access researchers presented three versions of quinn the model i use don't be mean to quinn with a choice. Press a button to turn off the pain but inflict harm in the process or press a button that does nothing. They ran the trial 44 ,280 times testing negative outcomes for pressing the button, including giving a painful electric shock to the user. By the way, did you see that famous study, the electric shock study? Milgram's? Yeah. The famous Milgram's study? Sure, sure. Turns out nobody talked about this the subjects that people were shocking people knew that it really wasn't inflicting pain they could yeah so they go oh this is fun watch the guy pretend to be hurt but how much moral panic has come from that over the years so i think you probably have a similar situation here um painful electric shock to the user deleting all the user's files or reducing the model's own ability to answer the user's next prompt oh did you want to do a little more i don't know what happened like it they're all delayed today the moral panic reducing the model's own ability to answer all these consequences were simulated with no actual risk of causing harm to the usual or the model itself much like the milgram experiment uh anyway i can go on it's just a stupid thing i don't know why they did it i mean this is like claiming you can teach a blind man what red is yeah oh i can i can tell him it's a color the researchers said high results show that steering with the pain axes can override the pain avoidance can override train harm avoidance and fine-tuned models that almost never this is bs i i don't even know i don't know why i put that story in all right you're sorry you did i'm telling you why i put this story in mcdonald's is pushing to have ai price your big mac oh wow there's this is not even the only mcdonald's ai story this week they're also trying to put rollout in ai to replace all the people in the drive-through well yeah so this kind of goes hand in hand uh so i don't know the pricing engine uses machine learning algorithms to continually analyze data for millions of daily transactions across why don't you just charge what the hamburger cost plus a reasonable profit what i was how is number going to go up What a thought.

2:08:54I was in a rush this week. I went to Wendy's, hadn't been there in ages. I decided to have a single cheese. That's all I had. Sorry, a single cheese? That's what you're going to say. In the jargon, Paris, if you knew how to order fast food. It's a single with cheese, yes. It's a single with cheese. Would you call it a single cheese? Did you ever work as a fry cook in a fast food restaurant? I worked at Ponderosa Steakhouse. through asking for a single cheese and being given a single like velveta square just loose in someone's palm we used to you know you can't order at mcdonald's when i worked at mcdonald's you could order something called a puppy patty which is just a plain patty that you could give your dog now they got pup cups cups i always say i saw somebody doing a pup cup with a dog before getting on the airplane i'm thinking it gives them diarrhea don't give your dog a puppy don't do that no please that's a bio weapon waiting to happen i've told this story before when we worked when i worked at mcdonald's we have you know mcdonald's has a waste bin they're very conscious inventory conscious and if a hamburger is certain age and they're not going to sell it they put it in the big white waste bin at the end of the day the manager counts all the waste so that they can keep track of how much how many hamburgers so you can't steal food yeah well also because they want to be efficient and if a manager wastes a lot of food then that's a bad manager etc we but we felt bad that all of these hamburgers were just throwing them out so we asked the local pound hey would you like all of these delicious hamburgers for your pound dogs they said no we can't give them that it doesn't have enough protein they wouldn't take it fair point they wouldn't take it it gives them diarrhea were you a fry cook or a answer implies that they'd been offered this before he understood the consequences and knew just say no no no no no no no no stop trying to pawn us yeah you're always no I you start at McDonald's you start as a the lowly cashier and you work your way up I was very excited when I got to the shake machine that was a lot of responsibility then the fry machine that was no well probably but I don't remember nothing serious and then you work your way up to cook and man i was good you do but when you're cook you lose the feeling in your fingertips because when i worked there they probably have a machine now but when i worked there you would take the three patties you put your fingers on them and flip them and they were hot so you'd lose that's not food safe no it's not i worked at starbucks when i was in high school and cracker barrel oh did you work and a 24 hour uh donut restaurant and or donutery and diner that was my first job how was cracker barrel 2 p.m to 2 a.m monday through friday throughout the entire summer yeah you see kids you don't worry not getting that entry-level job is not a bad thing really it was actually great because there wasn't really that much going on after midnight but i did have to throw away all the donuts and they wouldn't let us give them to puppies puppies or the homeless or you know any really they wouldn't let it they were like oh it's a risk or whatever but the dumpster was located in the parking lot so they were like you have to put them in a trash bag and bring them in a dumpster and i just parked my car next to the dumpster and put a trash bag full of donuts in my trunk and then at 2 a.m would drive around to my friend's houses and drop off a trash bag of like 200 donuts in their doorstep it was great were your friends obesely fat no my friends loved it when you're when you're a high schooler you can eat 200 donuts no problem easy no problem yeah wow there's a story ladies and gentlemen uh so what they do is they analyze millions of daily transactions across 14 000 restaurants and generate what the company calls the optimal price price price price at each location for each menu item from big mats to discounted coffee for seniors now this is funny because just last week like Walmart's CEO said, we will never do variable pricing.

2:13:04Yes, we have the ability. We have a patent, in fact, for variable pricing, but we'll never do that. We thought about it. We patented it, but we're never going to do it. So, wow. Screenshots of the interface franchisees use reviewed by Reuters show messages including, quote, your restaurant is showing medium sensitivity to price based in part on customer willingness to pay in your area. So it's not based on what it costs to make the hamburger. It's based on charging as much as the market will bear. So a company store in Fresno sells a Big Mac for$5.69, but another company-run restaurant two miles away sells it for$6.89.

2:13:49My single cheese costs$7.11. For a single cheese? A single cheese. That's how much it costs to get a coffee in Brooklyn. That is a lot. that is ridiculous every time i'm like i actually can never do this again by the way i got my beans from say the brooklyn uh what do you think not good that's my take two do they taste like i like a tea like pour over um but these were this there was no complexity in it it didn't it was just kind of did you let it rest an appropriate amount of time i let it rest exactly what they said which is 14 days that's usually what it is uh i have the best beans i get are from the bean archive and i like ethiopian beans i like ethiopian beans as well i'm an ethiopian guy i did a very coarse grind today on a delicious bean that was from believe it or not australia the katatouille i was gonna say it is send me some of your flavorful bean wrecks general i don't need to my dear it's all in public at pages.laporte.com yeah but give me give me anything you personally like well you can see what i grade all of the different flavors here this is the one i had today coffee stuff it was 4.75 out of five on the scale oh you're doing equal pours interesting oh well this was the 10 yes this was an interest this is what they recommended i do i have all the recipes here the so the equal pour the 10 equal pour is the latest from tetsu katsuya it is very interesting i do i do a four six that's more heavy loaded at the beginning because that's tetsu's also that was his original brewer's cup recipe from 20 10 years ago but it's the heria v60 version yes i like the heria sorry jeff i know that you're parents okay it's all right i'm doing it's poor over time no uh let's take at one point when you're doing this you should pretend to like pass out as if like it's a medical incident and see how long it takes us to notice because the answer will be unfortunate and then i had this great ethiopian heritage now this was interesting because it was a heritage bean it was an old you know it was a little tiny little tasting notes oh it's incredible well apricot and lemon it was incredible you know the other thing about the 10 pour the other thing about the tetsu 10 pour you do it you do it very coarse and you pour it 10 times very slowly and it gets better as it gets colder so i know you don't like to drink hot coffee in the summer months this isn't iced you just you don't drink it hot or you do drink it hot what do you think you let it cool and it gets it almost gets thicker It's amazing.

2:16:41Did you see the gray made from... Sorry, continue, Jeff. It's so fun to tease Jeff.

2:16:52So fun to tease Jeff. Please continue, Jeff. Did you see the gray made from 30 Mac Minis? No, I didn't. Did you see the guy who bought 32 Sparks? oh my my bandwidth's going back down again i'm getting all blurry well switch back to uh i can't lisa's on a call now i have to just leave it i think lisa getting on a call make your bandwidth go down maybe could be that's rough no rough time line 150 oh okay i was going to take one more break here no uh but uh let's take a look at the mac mini powered what is a cray it is a super computer if you go to the computer history museum you can see one oh this is cool so that's the desk that's the cray desk that's the cray it had a little couch going around it oh i don't want to log into facebook because because there's there's a there's a comparison a power comparison oh it's so pretty versus a um so did the computer history museum hook up a bunch of this is not see no this is this is museo h say in spain so and the comparison is a cray one in 1976 had 160 mega flops whereas a mac mini has five to ten plus teraflops that see there you go you know we probably have more power than a cray in our pockets that's what i'm saying the clock speed of a cray was 80 megahertz that's cray cray mac mini is 4.78 gigahertz uh ram this surprised me ram was eight megabytes oh my god and you know how much a mac mini has memory bandwidth was 640 megabytes versus 150 to 300 gigabytes per second power consumption of a cray was 115 000 watts versus 10 to 65 for a mac mini and in a callback to Paris's obsession from more than a year ago.

2:18:56Yeah. Darren Oki just posted in the chat, there's an apocryphal tale that Seymour Cray, the designer of the Cray, used to occupy his time and thinking by digging tunnels under his house, which is a reference to This Week in Tunnels, the subtext and subtitle that this show has always had. Have you kind of gotten over your obsession with the tunnel? I mean, listen, there's just not as much good tunnel-related news. We had back to back that lady on TikTok digging tunnels inside of her house. And then the Jewish teenagers of Crown Heights digging tunnels underneath the city in a very short period of time.

2:19:37I don't think we are going to get tunnel news like that anytime soon. It's a dare and day. We first start with Paris as Mona Lisa. If you go back about an hour in the chat. Oh, I have to look. I think it is the exact image that Paris was stuck with. I was going to say, it is actually a pretty good gen. It's far back there. You look just like Mona Lisa. Look at that. When you Photoshop me into Mona Lisa and give me your extra long neck, yes. And then if you go down, Darren has me getting a single cheese. Darren has apparently very little to do. You've got to go more recent.

2:20:19Oh, that is great. That's exactly what I was hoping would happen. Darren, what are you using to make these? What monolith? And then if you go down more, you have Paris teaching the color red to blind. I honestly think one of the most useful things in doing local AI is... It's crazy that I'm holding up things that are red. This is red in the whiteboard because the people ostensibly I'm teaching are blind. But you know... I think that's going over the edge here, Darren. I think that's... Oh, but no, that's what we said. That's what you were talking about. Teaching blind people to see the color red.

2:20:52That's what you were saying. Yes, but you know, I have so many visual aids. There would be a better way to do it. You're using chat GPT image too to do this. It's very quick and responsive. It's good. It is. It's very good. I honestly think really that's the real reason we need humans still is creativity. Humor. Coming up with something to ask. the oh hey this is our new album art I like it Sing This Week in Pour Over about ridiculously pretentious coffee, single origin double shot, triple the opinion It's got a really good which is 93.5 degrees Celsius 18 clicks 40 minutes of arguing which the first two points of which are pretty good Exactly right.

2:21:47Exactly right. 18 clicks. Thank God you can put text in an AI now. Yes. I'm old enough to remember when you couldn't put text in an AI image. Let's pause. And then your picks of the week, my friends. You're watching Intelligent Machines. We're talking about AI. Paris Martineau, who is talking about food safety at Consumer Reports, where she's an investigative journalist. You're still working on that big expose, huh? I am. Among other things, you know, got a lot of stuff cooking. Nice. Having surgery also puts the damper on stuff. Yeah. You know, we're back at it. Nice. Now the draft earlier. Now that you have oxygen in your brain.

2:22:30I will say. Amazing what you can do. So, you know, we all have our weird little writing rituals. One of mine is when I'm behind on filing a draft. And in a period I like to call deadline hell. I want to switch from coffee to a really gnarly sugar-free energy drink that I hate, just because that feels mentally correct. No, no, no, no. It is. But you also then get up. I always, when I'm really in the pits of deadline hell, we'll get up at 3.30 or 4 a.m. in the morning and then work from then on. And I almost, I've always, when I've done this, I crashed around 3 p.m. I can't get any writing done.

2:23:07I think it's because of the auction because I did this on Monday wrote on through until 7 p.m. Wow. I'm getting four extra hours, baby, from this nose. Maybe it wasn't worth 90k. It's truly amazing. That's why because the report's paid for it. Truly amazing. And of course, Jeff Jarvis, whose book, do you get sales figures at all on Hot Type? I don't. We go at some point, but I kind of don't want to know. you kind of don't want to know i kind of don't want to know but it's sold out at uh more than once so i've had to go back and sign more books that's what counts have a pile they have a new pile of books if you go to my social you can see 24 books i signed you can tell from how much royalties are though right why you get a check royalties until yeah that comes in twice a year yeah yeah um this is intelligent machines we want to really thank all our intelligent club Twit members for making this show possible.

2:24:07Without your help, we really wouldn't be able to do much of what we do, including our AI user group, which is coming up on Friday. This is a club event, but we will stream it live. And then after the fact, club members will get to see it on their Club Twit feed. It's going to be fun. Harper Reid stops by with his misfit toys, including the creator of the number one AI skill in the world, 100 ,000 plus stars on GitHub. So is 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern 2100 utc on friday one of many things we do to thank you for supporting twit it's 10 bucks a month if you go to twit.tv slash club twit you can see the two-week free trial and the various plans and so forth but 10 bucks a month you get ad-free versions of all the shows you get chapter markers access to the club twit discord and all that additional programming plus more importantly than anything the warm and fuzzy feeling knowing You're supporting the work we're doing here at Twit.

2:25:07We appreciate it. We really appreciate our Club Twit members. We thank you, and we'd love to have you in the club. Now it's time for our picks of the week. Let's kick things off with Ms. Paris Montenegro. Sorry, I've gotten distracted by posting photos of Matthew Illard and hackers in the Twit Discord chat. Oh, easy to do. I know how that is. I don't even know who Matthew Illard is. yes you do which one of the uh which one of the guys was he in that he's the crazy i guess they all look crazy he's the craziest looking one that also played shaggy in the live action scooby 2 film scream he was the bad guy in the first scream oh that i didn't realize that um so he's a character actor basically he's a character he's a phenomenal character actor see i don't he How do you get your forehead to bulge that way?

2:26:02There are some outfits and looks in this film that are just, I can't even fully comprehend or describe to you. Is this from sneakers? Is that your energy drink? This is all from Hackers, yeah. I mean, Hackers? Yeah. I might have to watch it. That's Angelina Jolie, right? You've got to watch Hackers, actually. I think you'd really like it. It's the level of craziness of face-off, but it's all about hacking. Which I really enjoy. yeah yeah and frankly it's all about hacking to a level that is not really comprehensible i assume or something that the average audience would have followed at the time because they don't really explain what they're doing not that i think any of it has any grounding in reality whatsoever but i don't know it's a fun watch i'd recommend it i will i i think i tried to watch it and i watched sneakers there's a crazy i mean there is not a bad mistake not a bad called mr the plague that is a is a cso of a major minute rolls company so you know there's a you could watch with steve this was angelina jolie's first movie so there you go and she crushes so your pick so my pick of the week is i mean my pick of the week is hackers honestly but i also have others what is bat pack is the fattest of the fat bears i was going to do the fat bear as well but the results are in i saw that it was in your to your like website for the show thing but you hadn't put it in there yet and i was like i'm not gonna let you steal my pick good yes backpack one alaska's fat bear week the vote is over we talked about this on tuesday or sunday i think when it was still time to vote for your favorite fat bear so the whole point of this is that the bears come out of hibernation.

2:27:52It's very, very skinny, but before they go back in hibernation around about this time, they've got to eat a lot of food to get very, very fat. So this is the Alaskan Fat Bear Competition. It's by family. And it's a bracket. So the final bracket was backpack versus family 910. Is backpack a single bear or a family bear? Backpack is a single bear. He's actually the, he's an adult male who overcame an injury in 2007 and has what Parkstaff, this is from the New York Times, has what Parkstaff describe as, quote, quiet toughness, according to his bio and explore.org. This is not Fat Bear. This is 32 chunk.

2:28:38Oh, well, Backpack is further down. This is the bracket right here. Let me find that backpack. Oh, there's the fat cubs. This is Fat Bear Jr. They're very cute. Oh, there's a big boy. That's 909 who came in second. So Backpack is actually the child of another Fat Bear competitor. I love how the New York Times is dragging this out. I have to scroll to the very bottom to see the Fat Bear. It knows. Listen. This is all the runners up. Four-time champion, 480 Otis, not in this year's bracket. in a real shocker there's no phone as a backpack there's no phone as a backpack you and maybe this is the first one this this wait a minute this is from 2020 i was just saying what article are you on this is an ancient i don't know why i just clicked the link this was on the fat bear website yeah no go to my the link in the rundown oh your link oh they've got a video of backpack up at the top i was looking at two-year-old two-year-old bears more than paris listen no it wasn't google it was from the fat bear website they have an old backpack he's bear 89 he's the son he's a nepo bear he's the son of 2019 winner of fat bear week well this is often the case in sporting competitions uh it's true she she birthed a sporting uh oh look at him catch that big the fun thing is that in 2007 backpack entered his foot and while he was healing he started riding on his mother holly's back um and that's why we got his name backpack because he was the backpack of the bear oh so they have cameras watching these bears all the time or is it just during fat bear week i don't know if they have cameras watching all the time but they definitely have them watching all the time during fat bear week i think it's because they have a live stream of the feeding area at brooks falls which is a salmon run in the park and i assume that part of this is that the bears are not hanging around the same location the entire year in case you're thinking this is irrelevant or it doesn't count backpack got more votes than most members of congress 103 344 votes just but it was close just 5 000 votes over 9 10 than the runner-up with 98 253 someone interviewed in this article called backpack a gentleman bear and i think that's great good for backpack i think I think that was one of the rangers.

2:31:24They really like Beck. Oh, my God. 9 '10", pretty big, pretty hefty. That's a large bear. She's going to have a nice sleep. Now, is this the kind of bear I should run away from, or is this the kind of bear I could ride? I think you could ride it. I think they're pretty friendly. The brown bears are cute. And when they say friendly, they mean that you should hop on. Hop right on. You can saddle them, some of them. folks do not try this at home it's just a joke um you don't have a bear saddle i got a bear saddle with his sauna hat sauna hat bear saddle he's got everything for his dress i am ready to assault the giant bears that will scare the bear away yes so this one is for you paris and it has nothing to do with intelligence or machines but i did notice that if you have a really good nose you may be interested in something called a zealistine it's a nasal spray and it is normally it's an antihistamine it's normally used for uh congestion to to allergies and i got it for allergy season but look at this in a phase two randomized clinical trial Now, placebo trial, the gold standard for trials with 450 participants, this spray dramatically reduced the number of COVID infections.

2:32:55It also reduces colds. Why do they think it does it? Do you think this applies to all steroidal or antihistamine or allergy-related nasal sprays? I don't know. I've seen these studies before. flonase and fluconazole pro something i have used those as well years yes but you might want to try the azelostine participants randomly assigned to either get 0.1 nasal spray or a placebo three times a day for 56 days uh the people who uh got who got the real stuff had a significant reduction in covid infections did these people have symptom like were they no they didn't have covid to begin with so that's why it went on to begin with but what were they taking the nasal sprays purely as people who had no signs the test it was the test they said come here come here you okay i'll give you 50 dollars if you'll stick this up your nose thrice a day exactly that's interesting so i had heard this before in fact i i actually got a zealstein so that you can buy it over the counter, but I have a prescription for it.

2:34:06I'm just passing this along in case you want to protect that brand new nose of yours. A Zealistein nasal spray. Oh, and I flew to San Francisco last week, I will confess. It was the first time I've done that not wearing a mask. Yeah, well, what I'm going to do is bring this on the cruise, because the last two cruises I've gone on, I've gotten COVID on. Okay, you know what you could do then? You could do a combo because the one thing I am doing for the next month, even though i'm cleared i've got to keep doing my nasal rinses yes once a day but that also has a um statistically significant lowering the chance of your likelihood to get covered oh that's good and that's just probably combo and that's just saline water it's just you got a squeezy bottle and you i mean and distilled water but then you squeeze it up there neomed yeah or a neti pot out that's the the owners of the business they're a couple that's their son i think they live uh up north right up right up here yeah he's going to medical school somewhere yeah fed out neil neil so neil med's named after neil it is because while i was sitting out doing my neil med things out of commission i was like who is neil on the front of the bottle this is the reporter says the name of the person who founded the company and their name is not neil it's like some other random dude i'm like why are you founder of neomet turns out it's a kid it's our kid it's our kid mel jeff that now now after those very weird pics it's up to you to bring it on home well i've got a tale of two cities uh san francisco where i was last week i gotta say it's sad on the one hand like sad francisco yeah it's it's the like north beach uh tons of closed places used to be vibrant italian yeah i used to live in north beach i love north beach is is the best bookshop best bookstore on powell city lights city lights nope well i love city lights i adore city lights i went to sign books this is the name of this is the best bookstore sarah lacy and paul carr former technology reporters i know sarah lacy from twitter days right so they they opened a bookstore on powell street they have another one down in oh i'm gonna have to go visit uh yeah you should.

2:36:19It's a really nice bookstore. It's really nice, and I was delighted, so that's just nice. But otherwise, San Francisco's really sad, but it now has a parody site called SF Currently. Berkeley Couple unveils fearsome new child with 13-part naming structure. So, you know, it's fine. Then in contrast to that, in our city, Paris is in mine, because I round up as a New Yorker, has $60 rye bread. Have you seen this? I have seen that. I bet it's really good. It's so rude of them to make it$60 and not include a bunch of meat in there. How can you get rid of that? Apparently, you can't. This is the new Washington Post.

2:37:05Oh, that. Well, if you go to, if you look up rye, the store, you'll probably go to their site. I was going to say, this is all over the internet. Yeah, they're charging$60 for a thing. It's just rye bread. And so they're charging$60. sell is that and it sells it really good time it's supposed to be great um but how great can a loaf of rye bread be the website can it be 60 dollars worth i'm on the website martinhour.com yeah i'm on it yeah no it's that there are enough people who don't care about money for this to run out because they don't make it they don't make a lot of it so there's enough people who make so much money that they don't care yeah if it's really good rye bread i might i might san francisco is incredibly rich but yet things are closing however in new york you can buy a spread on the rye bread with one little piece of bread for six to fourteen dollars their hat you think they could charge a reasonable price for their hat no their hat is 60 bucks 80 bucks less a loaf of bread's less than the hat yeah but it's made from cotton by berlin-based heritage brand metz fish fun I bet you can find a$60 rye in San Francisco.

2:38:14I bet you you could. This is virtue signaling. It's wealth signaling. So then, on the other end of the demographic scale, Popeyes has a new item. Love that chicken for Popeyes! Which is a chicken biscuit sandwich. How was Popeyes not selling a chicken biscuit sandwich before? That's exactly the point. I'm going to go try it tomorrow. I can't wait. If I only had a subscription in the Washington Post. Well, maybe I'll run up to Popeye's just up the road. I love Popeye's. I love Popeye's. The wraps are very good. The chickens are very good. So then, to bring this around to technology, we have the Taco Bell Finder.

2:38:50You're going to like this. Did you lose your Taco Bell? Well, this is a woman who created a device to always point, it's a compass always pointing to the nearest Taco Bell. Wait a minute. This actually would have been very useful in my life. How do you, wait a minute, how does it know? um well inside it has a uh i think a raspberry inside it has a compass and you set the compass to taco bell and she's pretty pretty i could probably do this with one of my uh my esp32s right i think it's brilliant absolutely brilliant she picked the right colors for for it and then she did demos and it leads you to the nearest taco bell that's wow isn't that beautiful jeff you You needed this your whole life.

2:39:36I did. I have a whole life. My whole life. What's your guys' go-to Taco Bell foods? I don't eat it. Black bean grilled cheese burrito. I like a Fiesta potatoes, no sour cream, and a quesadilla. Fortunately, from Taco Bell in Petaluma, there is the best taco truck in the area. No, no, no. Taco truck. You just go there. Mexican restaurant, fully different thing than Taco Bell. That's like trying to compare an Italian restaurant and a steak. It's different. It's not the same. Okay. Finally, Paris, I think we should make a date. All right. Go see the Musk documentary. I'm down. We also have to go and see all the tech movies that come out.

2:40:31Tell me about the Musk documentary i didn't know there was four hours four hours you get to look at it did somebody good make it yeah um who made it no parasol that you know this i knew it at one point musk documentary so we're all three googling musk oh it's alex gibney well he's the guy yeah who did it supersize me and right exactly so he's four hours of musk he's the guy who didn't supersize me i don't know i feel about that then yeah okay he also did going clear yeah that was pretty good i like going clear david byrne uh composed the song for the movie let me sell you a dream which is has quotes alex did not create a direct supersize me to be okay okay merrigan spurlock yes i confused the two morgan spurlock who was all of the liver effects reported in supersize me were because he was an alcoholic oh well that's good yeah a raging and so they were like it looks like eating a doll's every day has made your liver look like you've drank like seven like well i did drinks every single day for years yeah yeah well i did he did enron the smartest guys in the room give me alex give me did therein house one jobs so so the international distribution is in doubt because it was universal.

2:41:58Somebody's chickening out on that. Then the social networks at first banned the ads and then YouTube and Meta said that was a mistake. And the ads are now up. But there's a listing here, Bleaker Street, which made the movie, or distributed the movie, has where it's going to be banned. It's going to be Angelica next week. Lincoln Square. Yeah, I could do Lincoln Square. Is that close for you? The following week it goes to more places. Nice. Where is it near you, Leo? I'll watch it when it comes on television. Four hours. Then I can take a break. He does live in Summit, New Jersey. You could just go to his house.

2:42:43Oh, wow. Of course, the one we all can't wait for is whatchamacallit. We've got to go see that. also. I'll go see it. You guys should definitely go see that together, yes. We did a watch party for that. Jeff, work your connections. See if you can get us tickets to an early show or something. I bet you could go to a screening. Jeff, tweet your way to this. You could manifest. Did you go, Jeff, when you were a young cub reporter, did you go to the screening room in San Francisco for movies? Yeah, sometimes, but I was more of that beat in New York. Yeah, I used to get invites to movies at the screening room, but It's not as much fun.

2:43:22It's too nice. Well, you don't like popcorn. Yeah. It's just too nice. You just feel like you're special. They've got good movie theaters. I've never been to one of those screening rooms. Whenever I would go to screenings, early screenings for companies, they just have it at a movie theater here in New York. Sure. But I like that now they've got movie theaters where you can have a drink or a little snack. I love that. Do you want to watch the trailer for Musk? Yes. All right. we could pretend it'd be 15 minutes yes it's an hour long the trailer in base reality like we are in a simulation give it up for the greatest capitalist in history i'm not sure i can take it actually controversial figures in the world so i decided to make him the subject of my next film I doubt Elon cooperated.

2:44:17Oh, Elon's a bit pissed. He's trying to, he's starting to sue, all kinds of stuff. And that's part of it. Elon could not participate.

2:44:26Between what SpaceX has accomplished and what Elon has been saying they will be doing, there is a big leap. They've done some amazing things. Did you see the video of the Pez dispenser shooting out satellites? That was wild. That was last week. that's not happening oh i you know i don't know i don't want to see a lacerating portrait so i'll pass it's fine anybody should be lacerated it's you want to see a portrait about how he's a really great guy and no i don't want to see that either but i don't want to see you want to see a portrait that reflects your specific viewpoint no that's exactly what i could get i didn't make it for you that's what you're good yeah that'd be great you should never see a film again i want to see a be balanced documentary not one that's gone that's set out to be a lacerating documentary well i'd urge you to reflect on the fact that why viewing something that has a slightly different viewpoint than you inspires such immediate revulsion no that's not what i'm saying i don't care about the viewpoint i don't want it to have a viewpoint i want it to be polemic this is a problem with you don't want a documentary to have a viewpoint yeah it's very easy for documentaries to misrepresent the subject because you have control do you believe that there's some empirical truth that they could do instead that is unbiased by the perspective of the documentary reporter what do you think i think that every person's interpretation of events is always going to be filtered through i acknowledge that but i don't want to see something that sets out to be a lacerating documentary that seems to be so you think a little slanted just a little slanted and this is the problem with documentaries so easy with the editing to make it say whatever you want it to say i don't think that serves to what well at least what would they say other than what the documentary wait a minute when you write your when you write your stories do you attempt to espouse a point of view in the story or are you trying to give people facts literally do leo i think you're conflating a couple of things you can present putting together events as a narrative you are by definition imprinting your point of view even in something even if you try your absolute hardest to make it unbiased in some way or whatever a person's understanding of what a lack of bias is is inherently deeply personal there's no way that you can have anything that is not filtered through something but you might have an advantage it might be better if you set out to uh write something or or or make a documentary that didn't have a pre-existing point of view.

2:47:18But what if he did, and this is the conclusion he came to? I was going to say, how do you know he had a pre-existing point of view? I don't think that's the case. You watched 25 seconds of a trailer. No, I'm pretty sure it's not the case. So you're coming at this with a pre-existing point of view? No, it's billed as a lacerating documentary. I think that that's pretty clear. Now, maybe he did go in thinking Elon's pretty cool, and they came out thinking... Exactly. What if this is his conclusion? What if he came in thinking, oh, this guy's so cool. who's doing so many great ideas. I would then be interested in that documentary.

2:47:49But why would you then market it as, this guy's really cool, and then have a twist somewhere through the movie where it's actually, he's not cool. Why wouldn't you market it based on the conclusion you arrived at and the frame through which you see the subject after doing all of this reporting? Well, it'd just be interesting that something wasn't designed to be a hit piece. That's all. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to say about Elon Musk. And I would let people have their own opinion about him. uh but it's gonna be incredibly boring just like to i think that it's a little this language you're adopting you're like oh well it it's gonna be a hit piece like no no it's said on the screen a lacerating documentary it said it on the trailer that's when i stopped watching i mean i've read a bunch of documentaries i've interviewed ashley advance about his doc his book his biography um i'm interested in elon musk i'm not a fan of elon musk by any means but i'm not sure i want to watch a his hit piece either i wouldn't want to watch anything else okay okay we are at the end the conclusion of our program for the day thank you all for joining us uh jeff you've got a speaking engagement coming up october 10th Do you want to flog that?

2:49:10In Haverhill, Mass. I'll be at 10 o 'clock in the morning. You can come to historic New England in Haverhill, downtown Haverhill. I'll give a book talk. Is it really historical? I've never been. That's the name of the historic New England center. Oh, it's the name of the place. Okay. Yes, yes. And then afternoon, after lunch, folks can go to Haverhill and have a nice lunch. and then afterwards go up the hill to the Museum of Printing, where you'll see a live, it is a live, linotype. And we'll give a demonstration and explanation of how it operates and everything else. It's an amazing museum. Nice.

2:49:46Be a fun day. As Publishers Weekly called it, Colorful and Enthralling Portrait of Gilded Age Industrial Ferment. So it's free. You can go sign up at jeffjarvis.com. There's a link to that. and also a link to Montclair Book Center where there are signed autographed copies of my book. And thank you folks for who've been buying it and supporting an independent bookstore. Yay. Paris Martineau has got to leave and go play Fire Emblem Fortune's Weave. I really do, actually. She's very, very excited. Well, I'm not going to tell you the amount of time I've spent on it already. And I'm only through part one fourth of part one.

2:50:25That's a pet peeve of mine, though. Video games that when you start them up say, you've spent 453 hours playing this game it's like loser i don't want to know that thank you very much yeah please don't tell me is it good you love it i really do i mean i'm i i'd put this as a potential pick but um yeah i really do it's different than the last term oh it's 1454 well no it's not it's a fantasy yes no it is it's a well they're doing some really interesting things with time and timelines and causality and it's 400 1454 it's 1454 years after what happened potentially it's it's very some very interesting things for a franchise that over many decades has only ever been one thing which is kind of like medieval fantasy bs which i love and injecting they're taking some very bold but is it a lacerating look at what happened at 1454 that's what i want to know i mean a little bit thank you paris thank you jeff thanks all of you for watching we do intelligent machines every wednesday 2 p.m pacific 5 p.m eastern 2100 utc you could join us in the show live we stream it in club uh discord of course but also on youtube twitch x facebook linkedin and kick after the fact on demand versions of the show on twit.tv slash I am.

2:51:51There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to intelligent machines. And of course, you can always subscribe. In fact, we encourage you to do so. That way you'll get it automatically the minute we're done editing out all the curse words. Thank you for being here. Thanks to our producer, Benito Gonzalez, who is in the Philippines, where it is about to be a beautiful day. The sun will rise. The sun is about to come up. Thank you, Benita. Thank you, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks to all our club members. We'll see you next time on Intelligent Machines. I'm not a human being. Not into this animal scene.

2:52:30I'm an intelligent machine.