Alex Smith, Shane Battier, & Ravi Gupta - What Makes A Glue Guy? - [Invest Like the Best, EP.387]

27:23Like, I'm not going to just keep blocking this out, pretending like it's not happening. Like that was the moment I think where it was like very real. And, uh, Jim, Jim played quarterback for 15 years. He played for the San Diego chargers. I grew up in San Diego. I remember watching him play as a kid. He'd had a ton of success at Stanford. Here he comes, um, you know, over to the Niners with us. And so he very quickly, I, he could relate. Like I, I, he played quarterback and he's certainly everything he the way he approached the game his enthusiasm towards the game his gratefulness towards the game uh was infectious and i've told this guy's like that he literally said the same the same words before we left the locker room right before the game right so you're you're fully dressed you've gone through all your warm-ups you're getting ready to run out onto the field on sunday my stress and anxiety was always at its highest in that moment right like my like my self-doubt was at it maxed out and jim harbaugh's last words to us always every single week were the same and he would say play as hard as you can as fast as you can as long as you can and don't worry right like the last two words he said were don't worry like he like i just spent six years worrying that's all i did was worry i worried i was just constant worry.

28:45And they really just resonated with me. And I think combined with, like, listen, I would be remiss to say, like, certainly, like, the entire coaching staff, that same team the year prior when I was getting, you know, face-to-face with, you know, Mike Singletary and getting, you know, chanting the backup's name, I think we won five or six, five games. I mean, the very next year, we won 13 and went to the NFC Championship game. The year after that, We won another 13 and went to the Superbowl. Like we had better coaching staff. They were smarter. They put together better plans. Like we were coached better.

29:17Like, I don't want to like pretend like that wasn't a part of this, but there are also, also this other big chunk. That's not, it's not technical. And, and that's so much of these hard biases, um, that I think great leaders and founders have, um, and coaches. And, uh, that was a big part of it, uh, for me. And it had a huge effect on me in that moment. Incredible. Have you ever reached a rock bottom? Professionally? Yeah. I mean, not like that. I mean, there's never been people chanting the backup's name. The rock bottom for me, there's probably two or three times it's happened, but I'll give you one.

30:00The Instacart moment of just like, oh God, this is broken. We're losing $16 on every order. We're burning$12 million a month. Like literally I get the financials and I call the controller thinking that he made a mistake and I'm kind of annoyed. Hey man, can you send me the accurate financials? And he's like, what's wrong? And I'm like, this says we're burning$12 million a month. We're going to go out of business soon. He's like, no, no, those are right. Like, yeah, like that moment was terrible. And like, you feel like you're going to be a failure. You feel like you've let your family down. Like I took a 90 % pay cut to go from KKR to Instacart.

30:31So like all of a sudden I'm like, what am I going I tell Avni when I go home that like I did this out of like just pure selfishness. I had a good job. Right. And then, I mean, you know, it's so funny because like the story you want to tell is like, and then I just buckled down and I went to work. Like the first thing I thought about doing was go back, you know, like maybe I can quit, you know? And then like, and like, I didn't even just think about it. Like, I'm like, I don't know, my, my family's from India. Like we, we like want to make sure we're going to be okay. So like, I didn't even just think about it.

30:58I kind of like softly explored whether there was like some path back and like, I didn't go all the way down the path, but like, it wasn't that it was just an idle thought, you know? And then of course, like, you know, we were able to fix it and whatever, but it comes back to your point on like, what makes a good team? Like, dude, like for me, I think shared purpose is like, I've been on, I've been very blessed to be on great teams. Look, but the one that comes to mind, like these guys were a little, then they were, they hedged a little bit on what team, my favorite team I've ever been looking to be a part of was the Instacart team.

31:31Okay. Like that That is my favorite child as it relates to teams. Yeah, if I had an IPO, that'd be my favorite team too. Hey, listen, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Working for a long time. You know? Okay. But like, so shared purpose, big deal. And you guys said this. Like you're there for some reason that's bigger than you. But like just to put a finer point on, like it matters because all of a sudden every debate actually has an answer, which is like, well, what is better for the shared purpose? Rather than like anybody else's agenda. Like that's a big deal. I think the second thing is it has to be really hard.

32:04It has to be hard for you to like care about it. You know, like the hard is a feature because all of a sudden, like the, it's so much sweeter when you get through it, but it's also that you have to give all of yourself and it does require all of you to be good. And so like an Instacart, like all of us had to be good. Like we were going up against like a behemoth, right. And everybody thought we sucked and like, you need that extra motivation and all that. So like, I think like it has to be hard. And then for me, this is something I care about. It doesn't have to be for everybody, but like, you gotta have some joy in it, at least for me, for me to have it be my favorite thing.

32:41Like, you know, this is a silly example, but like the current CEO, co-CEO of KKR is a guy named Scott Nuttall and KKR is amazing place, but obviously most people talk about Henry and George there, but the current co-CEO is Scott Nuttall. And when I was, you know, just getting out of school, like two years in, I went and worked at KKR. Whenever Scott would talk on stage, anytime, he's looked like he was having a good time. And that like really sat with me. Cause like, I like think a lot about where I'm spending my time and where, why am I gone from my family and all these things. And Scott always looked like he was enjoying himself.

33:12And that always sat with me. It's like, well, man, this could be fun. We can like get important things done, but it doesn't have to be that we like don't like each other or enjoy it. And like, that is a part of who I am. Like, I like laughing. I like doing that. And certainly if I'm going to spend a lot of time somewhere, I need it to be fun. So one of the things that was cool about Instacart for me was I got to put my stamp on the culture, right? It wasn't just a culture that I had to like join in. And one of my favorite parts was I felt like we had joy in the culture. And that's what, when I hear Alex talk about his moments, like it's just like football stops being fun.

33:43Well, it's like, man, that's like really sad. Like you're never going to be great if there's not like some joy to it. I'd love to zoom in on the hard part, because I was kind of distinctive from the other two answers. I was with Kareem, our friend Kareem yesterday from Thrive, and he has this beautiful idea, which is that small ideas attract a lot of competition because they're easier to do. And so people, you know, that's kind of default, like something that's simple and easy. Whereas like SpaceX or something, not a lot of SpaceX competitors because it's insanely impossibly hard. And I'd love to hear examples that come to mind from each of you or from anyone on what that means in practice.

34:21So, you know, working with Coach K or on whatever team we're talking about, like zoom in on the hard, like help us understand what hard feels like or looks like in practice or in a moment. I think about the hardest time in my four years at Duke, was my last game at home against University of Maryland. It's my senior night. We lose. Not only that, our all ACC center, future pro, future 15-year pro, and center, Carlos Boozer, breaks his foot. Okay? So we lose for our rival. We lose our center, starting center, for what it seems like the rest of the year. Okay? We have one game left against North Carolina.

35:04our vaunted rival. And at that moment, you know, I came back, I could have gone to the NBA early. I came back for a championship run. At that moment, it was the first time I ever had pity for myself. And of course, all the haters came out and the media and the fans, Duke's dead, no boozer, no chance. They can't beat Carolina. I think Alex has a tweet on that from like 2001. I think he does. And so we actually went to practice the next day and we're all moping around. And Coach K boots us out of practice. Boot kicks us out. He says, get out of my gym, come back when you're ready to practice. All right.

35:40So we go in the locker room and I'm throwing chairs. And I say, guys, you don't understand. You guys are all super young. You have more chances. This is it for me. Conceivably, we could get blown up by Carolina. We could go to ACC tournament, lose that game, and then lose in the first round to a 16th seed. And my career is over and I have nothing to show for it. And I'm emotional and crying. I'm a pretty slow guy, but I'm crying. And I said, we're better than this. This is not who we are. And so we composed ourselves and went back out to the court and said, hey, coach, we're ready to practice.

36:14And coach K looked us in the eye and said, I'm going to ask every one of you a question. And I want you to answer from your heart. And he asked this, do you trust me? And do you trust in my plan. And if you do, we will win a national championship. Laughable. We just lost Boozer. You know, it's not looking good for the home team here. Coach K went down the line, looked us in the eye and said, do you believe in me? Do you believe in my plan? Do you believe we'll be national champions? And we all said yes. And after that, he unleashed this brand new plan. We played super super small. We inserted Reggie Love, who was more famously Obama's body man, as a 6 '5 center who guarded Brendan Haywood, who was giving away eight inches and 200 pounds to him the next game.

37:04And we were going to shoot 53 pointers, overwhelm them with speed and three-point shooting. And it was a brilliant plan that no one saw coming. And to Coach K's point, he said, look, we are built for this moment. We're not going to win the national championship because we changed something right now. We're going to win the national championship because our habits are pure and we are preparing for this single hard moment and nobody flinched. Right. And that's the difference. Again, it's like the analogy of pounding the rock. You just don't know when that rock is going to break. You don't know what is going to be the differentiator when you face that adversity.

37:45And so it was the old next man up, Reggie Lowe gets inserted into the lineup. We go to Carolina, we beat them by 12. All right. We go to the ACC championship, win the ACC championship, go to the NCAA tournament. Carlos Boozer miraculously comes back from a broken foot and we win the national championship. And our average margin of victory Ravi was 12 points. We beat every team we played by double digits. To your point, Ravi, like, yes, it's more meaningful when it's hard. Yes. Right. And when there's risk, when there's risk involved, and you're, for us, as athletes, you know, I was at risk of losing face.

38:25Yeah. And being embarrassed that I lost my last three games to some chumps. Yes. Right? And here I am, this guy, but I couldn't get it done. But, again, it wasn't about me. It was about our journey. It was about our team and what did we need to do to adapt to change to the adversity to get to our ultimate goal, which we did. And now, you know, look, the winners read the history books. So it's a great story now. It wasn't very fun. We were going through it. But it's something that, you know, Coach K is famous for. And I'm a better person, man, father, husband, because I went through that experience.

39:04Isn't it always like that though? Yeah. Like in hindsight, when you're in the middle of it. And I like, this is like the, I always find it funny. Like I love like the office space thing, right? Like when the guy's talking about, how do you know what you're supposed to do in life? And it's like, well, the question is the counselor question is like, well, if you had a million dollars, then what would you do? And the guy's like, nothing. You know, like I would just do nothing. I think there's this false sense that like, well, do what you love. Like that idea of love and that you, it should all just be like super enjoyable.

39:39I don't, I totally like, I completely agree, Ravi. Like it has to be hard. Like that has to be inherent in it. You know, that there has to be something at risk to go try to take that on and the potential to fail. I think if you're, if you're crazy enough, there is joy in the misery. Yeah. I mean, you have a patch on your backpack that says embrace the suck. What teammate taught each of you the most about being a good teammate? A couple of things come to mind for me there. Like I very distinctly remember when I got again, getting drafted and there was this big stigma. I, you know, I played in the shotgun in college and spread offense.

40:19And, you know, there's this big stigma that I played in a gimmicky college offense and I couldn't play in a quote unquote pro style offense. And so like I had to be able to play from under center and, you know, be a pocket passer and be all these things. And so this was something that I had to prove to everybody that I could do. And so I get drafted and I'm running this West Coast offense, quote unquote, in my rookie year. And my first couple of years, like I'll never forget getting ready to go play in the NFL. And I had no idea what I was doing. Right. Like, and, and sitting and watching film because quarterbacks watch film and they, you know, they were prepared for the game and they spend hours.

40:56And I like, I do that. Like I'm, you know, like that's, I can do that. And like, so I would just, I remember like Wednesday nights and Thursday nights, like I would just be in the film room till like nine, 10 at night watching. And I had no idea what I was doing. I just wasting time. Right. Like, and I was by myself. Okay. The other two QBs at the time had combined one start and were at home at 4 o 'clock. I remember just being there, watching film by myself, and just having no idea what I was doing and it not helping. I still would go out there and just suck.

41:36I felt very alone. Very alone in that. and so that I you asked about teammates and I think there's definitely a teammate that had the most profound impact on my career and this was in hindsight his name is Blake Costanzo I've told these guys this story like he was a third string linebacker he again I don't know what college he went to if you looked at him if you ran into him on the street you would have no idea he played professional football like he didn't look the part at all And he was on every special teams, right? Like he was on kickoff, return, kickoff, punt, punt, return. And every team has these guys.

42:17There's like five of them that are on all these core special teams. They're all backups. They're not starters on offensive or defense. They don't get any like limelight. Nobody knows their names. And Blake, man, like loved what he did. Like loved running down on kickoff. And it's this just crazy play, right? Like they outlawed it for a while. and uh and he loved it and like just came to practice every day with like an energy and and like a joy and uh again before games right like i told you guys like that's when i was at my worst like sitting on my stool just like you know in my own head worrying blake there before games again as we creeped towards kickoff it just would like be the energy level would just go up and he would run around.

43:04He had this saying and he would run around the locker room and he would like literally get in guy's face. Like he'd come over and be like, Shane, are you going to live today? Because I'm going to live. Right. And I'm like, I remember like sitting there and like, I'm the quarterback. I'm the number one overall pick. And like, I'm so worried again. And I'd been pretending like that this isn't hard. Right. Like that I like, again, And, and here's this guy, like, I mean, like third string linebacker and he is like confronting the problem, right? Like it is, man, this thing is hard, what we're doing.

43:36And I'm going to go out there despite all of that. Right. And I'm going to live on the other side of the coin, like the courage side again. And, uh, I was in the fear kind of side if there were two mindsets and I would go watch him and he'd like, by no means was he perfect, but man, he played fearless. like, and, and it was his more than the words, although I love the, you know, are you going to live? But like, it was how he went about it. Right. And how he lived his life and how he attacked the problem. That was the biggest example and had a huge profound effect on me. And like, it became this challenge to myself that like, I stole from him.

44:14And I was like, are you, are you going to live? Like, man, are you going to be present? Cause you've been, you've been gone for six years. Like you've been out there on the field, but you're not there. And he probably had no idea. In fact, I talked about it. I know he had no idea the effect he had on me at the time. And I think that's the cool thing when I try to talk like the power of teams. And this is, again, to kind of bring it, I guess, full circle. I get asked all the time about the Mahomes mentoring him. Why'd you do it? And like, I do go back to, I was alone in those meeting rooms, like watching film and had no idea what I was doing.

44:46And it sucked. And like Patrick and I, and it wasn't any, like I didn't whisper any like words of, yeah, like that's just not, he got a front row view right alongside me to go see all those things, to watch me watch film, to watch me prepare to play a game, to like, you know, all the little things. And so, and that's what mentorship is, you know, as a side of, as a part of being a teammate. I mean, I'm thinking about the exact same thing you are. The aspect of mentorship on a team is something that is not talked about enough. And there was a moment in my career that I can point to. I was a freshman, a hotshot freshman at Duke University.

45:31And here I was, I was national player of the year, you know, with number one recruiting class, with number one team in the season, going into the season, okay? Okay. Elton Brand and all these guys. And our preseason training was really difficult. All right. Part of our success was we were just in better shape than every team. And there was one particular drill called a 17 across. And the 17 across was 17 widths of the basketball court in one minute. Okay. And if one person missed, put 60 seconds back on the clock and run it again. So I used to have nightmares about this. So I'll never forget going over from Cameron Indoor Stadium, Descartes Gymnasium where we practiced and had conditioning.

46:09And I said to nobody in particular, man, I hate 17 across. And just then, our senior captain, Steve Wojciechowski, Wojo to the layperson, all five foot eight of them, stops, turns around, looks at me and says, you know what I hate? Losing. Man, I felt yay big. I felt yay big. And in one little moment, I understood what it was to be a member of the Duke basketball team. And it started with no complaining. Right. And I started just to take all my cues from the senior leadership on that team, the Steve Wojohowski's, the Trajan Langdon's, the Rashawn McLeod's, just the, how they, how they carried themselves.

47:05They were Duke basketball, you know, regardless of what I accomplished in high school and, and all the fanfare, I came in with my freshman class. Like I wanted to be like them and they set the standard. They were the first ones there. They They're the last ones to leave. They never complained. They always showed strength. They never showed that they were maybe anxiety ridden. Always confident. Man, yeah, I want to be like Trajan. I want to be like Wojo. And then funny thing happens, you get older, you find yourself, you're the senior captain. And you feel this duty to teach the younger guys, guys like Carlos Boozer and Jason Williams and Mike Dunleavy come behind you.

47:45Yeah, this is what it means to be part of this program. Right. It's not about just winning games or making shots. It's about how you carry yourself, how we work, the lack of excuses. Right. Look each other in the eye. And, you know, that's how tradition is is is continued. when you sort of just pass on the standards of what we stand for. And it's understood. And it's often unspoken. That's where the magic, that's where the good stuff happens. So my answer to this, I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. So it's cool to talk about it. I won't go into a lot of detail. I was like, Shane has actually been a lot of that for me, right?

48:28Like, you know, I think Shane is, we haven't like worked together, but like he is my teammate. He is somebody that I look up to on being an amazing teammate. And I think it is a great example of like the role you can play within a team and the everyday leadership. I've told you this before, Patrick, but the first time Shane and I had lunch together, I went to the bathroom and before I came back, I saw him, he was cleaning my seat because there were a little like moisture on it. And I was like, man, that's like something my mom would do, you know? And like, it's just like a really like, all right, we're in this, we're together, you know?

48:56And like, I think that that attitude is something I've seen. But the person that actually came to mind from work context, there's a woman named Michelle swanical okay who i worked with at instacart and she's still there she's there before me full-time employee and there after i left as a full-time employee and like even though i'm still like involved like she was like there there okay so the reason that i thought of her on like the what it teaches you to be a good teammate like first she'd gotten there she's one of the first like 10 employees and she joined as like i don't know a city manager or something but then she had done just so many different things she had been there for a few years by the time I got there, you know, she started out, you know, uh, managing a city, which meant she was like hiring a bunch of shoppers.

49:34Then she was, you know, um, doing expansion stuff, like going to new cities. Then she was, uh, you know, back to managing San Francisco, then just kind of a whole collection of different things. She had this great interview question. She would ask people about like this elaborate set of situations of like, what do you do if this happens? And the fridge breaks at the Potrero Hills, you know, uh, uh, uh, Safeway. And the answer is instead of like like all the analysis, it's like, I go fix the fucking fridge. Right. And just like, she would just like embodied this culture of like, we go do things, but you also do everything.

50:06She just like did each thing. She became like the director of culture. Now she's like the VP of HR, but she just like did everything. And I think what it taught me was one, like the only team that matters is the whole team, you know, like just the company. Right. The second thing that matters, like there's going to be people here that like outlive you, you know, and like the standard and the place that you're serving is actually like, there is an institution here. And then the third thing was that like, there's people that rely on you, you know, there's like people that depend on you to be good.

50:36And like, I'll tell you, like one of the things that Shane and I connect on and Alex and I connect on is this like need to buy in. It's like too easy to be cool. Right. And to kind of like, well, I'm going to be okay, even if this doesn't work out. Right. And I think this is very true in like business settings, which people don't give all of themselves to the place, particularly when there's risk. She's like, oh, I don't want to be branded as a failure, right? Like I still want to be successful, you know, if this thing doesn't work out. And I think part of what Michelle instilled in me was like, she was all in.

51:04She was like, she was Instacart to the core. She would like, when she would wear the jersey, right? When she would wear the shirt, like she wore it with pride. And I was like, I got to be like that. It can't be that like, well, I'm okay. Even if we don't win, I'm going to be fine. It's like, no, I got to like jump in the pool. I got to be all in. And people have got to know that it's okay to be all in. It's okay not to be cool. And they got to see a leader doing that too. Glugel. Glugel. One thing we haven't talked about is all the way to the top level here, getting the team together in the first place.

51:32I know you've studied actually this in some detail, and I'm sure we've all thought about it, but you got to get the coaches. You got to get the, I mean, I guess there's a GM at the very top or something, but someone's got to put all these people together in the first place. What did you learn in that exercise about what makes for a great team or a great teammate in data, qualitatively, quantitatively, however you studied it? Well, the first lesson we learned, we did a multi-year study on just what do successful teams look like across all industries, not just sports. We're trying to find the glue guys in sports, but we looked at military teams.

52:08We looked at business teams. We looked at families, Any venture that involves more than one person. And where it starts is obviously with someone coming up with an idea that people can get behind. Okay? That they're able to communicate why they're there, how we're going to launch this plan, and why we're going to be successful. Right? and I built the analytics department for the Miami Heat when I was there many, many years ago. And the goal of creating a world-class data team in a franchise that was a little foreign to data analytics was a bold statement. And when I went to the lunchroom and said this is what we're gonna do, I got some weird stares.

52:59But after five years, we created a world-class analytics department. It is those catalysts that I talked about, The energizers who are on the ground, who are the carriers of that message and that energy that is pervasive throughout the organization. As a leader, you know, I think you have a few jobs. And what makes an effective leader is to have the energy to carry these out, right? It's your job to remind people every single day while they're there. That's exhausting as a leader. It's exhausting. Most leaders aren't willing to pay the price to remind their people why they're there every single day.

53:42And the second that you assume that the people know why they're there, you've lost. Right? And it's exhausting. Very, very few leaders have the energy and the stamina to keep doing it. And again, the second you start to think that I communicate enough, guess what? You probably haven't communicated enough. And the great leaders, and you can read any biography about great leaders, they do those things ad nauseum. And it takes an enthusiasm, unknown stuff, unknown stuff, mankind like Jim Harbaugh and enthusiasm and a belief in - Who's got it better than us? Nobody. Nobody. And so again, what are you willing to sacrifice to be great as a leader?

54:25That's the question you You have to ask yourself. I was with someone recently who has been remarkably successful and has a foundation that they've set up. And I was asking him about the foundation and he told me the name of it. And I'm just gonna make up the name so as not to give it away, but it's, you know, the John Harry Sally Foundation. Like, that's a kind of a weird name for a foundation. Your name's not on the foundation. What's the story? And it was the name of the, it was, I think the first name of the three prior generations of his ancestors. Oh, that's cool. And like so many, if you go back in America, if you go back three generations, they were from somewhere else in the world and they immigrated here.

55:03And he talked me through each of them, basically what they did that was then the foundation and the requirement for him to be able to do what he did. And I thought that was the coolest name I'd ever heard. And it makes me think of a question, which is how each of your families, current and ancestral, show up in your lives. Yeah. Let's talk about Alexander Douglas Smith. So, and I've got like the waspiest name there is, right? So, but ironically, it's funny you just say that. Like, so on my, I have a tattoo, one tattoo, it's on my back. And I got it with my dad on his 60th birthday. And the name Smith, my name Smith comes from my great grandpa, who was Serbian.

55:51And he was 12 when he came through Ellis Island. Okay. And he came with his brother who was 14. This is right around the turn of the century. And he was given or took the name John Smith. Right. And, uh, to the day he died, he ended up working his way West on the railroad, served in world war one in the army and never told anybody his real name to the day he died. Not his wife, not his kids, not his grandkids. And that's where the Smith line comes from. And so, uh, long story short on my back with my dad, my dad was a longtime educator. was a high school principal for 25 years. Like we proposed this idea of going and getting tattoos together.

56:29And I'm like, he's not going to say yes. It turns out he was for it. So we started doing this and it's a Serbian cross and a Serbian crop, not religious, but this, this was like a, you know, a Serbian cross, obviously it's an equilateral cross. And in each quadrant, um, we put, I put the four letters of my great grandpa, my grandpa, my dad, and me as a line to this. Wow. Right? As where I come from, certainly sacrifices that have been made. And then on top of it in Serbian is Otak, which means father, and kind of a line of the fathers. And this is my line of Smith. I don't know my real name, you know, what it would be.

57:10We've tried to research it and find out, and it's just a dead end. but, uh, certainly I've always known that story. I've known that since I was, you know, since I could remember why our name is Smith, the most popular, populous name in America, why we got it. And, uh, certainly there was a, a lot of pride for me in it from that story, uh, from the sacrifices. Like I, I knew my great, I didn't know him. I as a kid coming here and working his way west on the railroads and serving in the military. Then my grandpa served in the Navy. Like how proud, and my dad knew him. You know, he was my dad's grandpa.

57:53And so my dad would tell the stories like when he was older, he was kind of this like honorary older guy, a farmer. And that like how adamant he was and how proud he was like of his name. And I do think that that absolutely has had shaped my life. That's cool. I didn't know that, the tattoo and all that. My grandfather came in 1957. So I think like obligation to succeed, some like fire comes from that for sure. You know, my family now, like, you know, Avni and the kids, like, you know, the term of like your pride and joy, like it just, those words are just words. There's like an expression, but that's actually what they are, right?

58:35Like they really are my pride and my joy. And they're, I feel kind of emotional even talking like about them, but like they, they are, they are how I will measure my life. You know, like what will they say about me? How will they feel about me? And they are the reason I do anything. And Alex and I were talking at breakfast today of like, you know, why do this? And we were kind of like, I was just kind of like, I'm only want to do it as long as I'm proud of the outcome, the output. but I don't actually care about any other thing that comes from it. And so far, I've been like really proud of like the stuff.

59:10I like talking about it with Avni and the kids. And I think that they are the reason that I care about being proud of it, if that makes sense. It's funny, my grandfather actually changed his name. Our original last name back in the day was Bansal. And my grandfather, just a pretty unique dude, he just kind of like didn't like his life in India. and he didn't like, he didn't like some of his family. And he was just kind of like, fuck this, man. Like, I'm changing it. And just a new chapter, like new name, new country. Like we're going and just like did it. And I've told you this before, Vector, but he did it like 35, five kids.

59:49And so the other thing that comes from him that I think is like, it's never too late to just like do it, you know, like there, and there's no excuse not to. So that's very real for me. Well, my parents, they shaped my life and I wouldn't be here without them, obviously. But I had a very interesting childhood. I was the only mixed kid in my town. My dad was big Ed Battier, only black guy in town. So by default, all the little white kids were, you know, kind of scared of him. But like, because he had big muscles and the only black person that they knew in Birmingham, Michigan. But he was the best Little League coach.

1:00:33He was the best, absolute best. I mean, I still have people come up and say, you know what? You know, your dad was the kindest, most caring coach. And what my dad instilled in all of our teams was the enthusiasm for each other. Right? And so I can't tell you, one time he taught me how to hit a curveball, how to hold a bat. He never raised his voice about anything skill-related, but he raised his voice when we didn't hustle off the field. He raised his voice when we didn't give chatter to the 10th man on the bench at bat after being 0-4. He raised his voice if our shirts weren't tucked in. He raised his voice if we didn't practice sharp.

1:01:17He always said, if we don't practice sharp, we're not going to play sharp, right? And so he was a stickler for everything that we could control, regardless of talent, right? And that's the standard he held us to. Just do the best that you can do. And as a result, we had amazing, amazing, amazing camaraderie on our team. We had a lot of success and a lot of fun, a lot of fun. And so I grew up thinking like, yeah, every dad talks about this way to their teams and their kids. And I soon realized that wasn't the case. And my dad was not a very educated man. I went to junior college in Minnesota for transportation.

1:01:59But he was always present. Always present. You know, this was before cell phones, obviously. But I can never remember him missing a single practice, a single game. So from him, I learned the importance of just being present. as a father now of two and a husband, the importance of just showing up every single day. And I'm sure my dad had bad days, but I never saw my dad have a bad day, right? A man of few words, but he was there. And that was so important to me. And my mother, to this day, is still the toughest person I know. And if you ask anybody in Birmingham, Michigan, she's fought with them all.

1:02:33All right. She's a tough lady. All right. She raises hell. And she was the one who told me growing up that, look, I know you're different, I know you're mixed, but they don't like you, screw them. All right? Make them respect you. And the one thing my parents did for me that I can never pay them for, and it's why I'm passionate about education and giving opportunities to young people, is they enrolled me into a Detroit Country Day school, which was an elite private school in Detroit. And we didn't have a pot to piss in, you know? and I went on financial aid and my parents had to get$500 to send me to the school.

1:03:12And I mean, I don't know how they did it. It seems like nothing, but they found it and they sent me there. And it was many years later, my mom said, you know why we sent you to Country Day? Because we didn't know how to get you to where you will be in life. We just don't have that capability, but the people you're with at an, in high school, a country day could get you there. So we had to, we had to get you there to show to yourself that you can get there. I'm emotional, not talking about it, but, uh, it was an unbelievable sacrifice for me, um, that they had the foresight and they realized their limitations and, uh, uh, just an amazing act of love and sacrifice.

1:03:57They sacrificed everything so I could have educational opportunities. He said, basketball, that was cherry on top. I grew to be 6 '8", 14, and dunk a basketball. So that was the cherry on top, but it was always about the education and the opportunity. And so I've become just very, very passionate about giving young people an opportunity, and more importantly, just seeing what's possible. For my own kids and for any kid out there, if you can see it and plant that seed, man, you can attain it. And sometimes it's as simple as just laying eyes on it. So I wouldn't be here without those experiences for my folks.

1:04:36Does someone come to mind that is simultaneously incredibly strong and very vulnerable? That's a good one. I think that you don't have one without the other, in my opinion. Like, I don't know anybody that I consider strong that isn't vulnerable, right? Like, that isn't real. the best leaders that I knew the best teammate leaders that like there was nothing worse than like you know a team meeting or a team gathering or a breakdown and freaking you know Disney guy jumps in there and gives some rah-rah garbage you know like we everybody got a bs meter the guys I respected the most the leaders whether they were coaches teammates peers that were vulnerable and walked in and kept it real.

1:05:26Right. And like whatever moment, you know, like the, the ups, the downs, the in-betweens, like, I just think that that's what real strength is. Well, I disagree. I think I'm having a hard time coming up with a example of someone who is strong and vulnerable. I mean, we're taught to be like warriors out there. Like, like, like coach K used to show us video of us. If we were making a face towards the official, Right. And he said, look, if you are showing that you're anxious or you're, you are, you know, letting the officials affect the game, your opponents are saying, wow, look at Duke. They're distracted.

1:06:01We got them. Right. And so it was always strong chin, strong face, strong face, you know, and in athletics, like, look, you're in the locker room. You're letting a lot of tears in the locker room because everyone's always looking at you. And if you're crying or you're showing anxiety, you know, teammates start looking around and say, get this guy out of here. He's the weak link. But this is why. Oh, good. No, I hear you. And I just think that that's like I think that's also part of what I feel like we talk about to combat because that is the Disney narrative. Yeah. Right. I don't want to keep using Disney.

1:06:34I work for Disney. So I hope they don't. I don't mean that. But, you know, the Hollywood, the Hollywood version. Always be selling. Yeah. Sorry. so so like the hollywood version of this is that but like listen i like nobody cried more than frank gore i mean we like cried like and i i hope he doesn't care that i'm putting this out there man we would come in it meant so much to him and he is a first ballot hall of famer i mean this guy is like the stud of studs like i get asked all the time favorite like again not favorite but like he's the guy that like i have the most pride that i i got to share eight years with him right like share backfield with him like this guy is a stud of a human being and like man you will you come in after a loss like he i mean he wasn't like he crying like in the locker room like it was real and like as a as a teammate is and appear like to see him like let loose like that like sobbing and screaming and like Like, I mean, it's like, holy shit.

1:07:38Like, you know how much it meant? Like, I knew how much it meant to him, right? Like, that was, it was everything. But that's where, so Patrick, the reason I thought about what you said when you asked, like, who do you know? Like, I told you I idolized my dad, right? I don't think my dad, you know, showed a lot of vulnerability growing up. And I do think that that, like, the nature of that is that you think that's the right way to do it, right? And like, I've taken so much from my dad, 99%, whatever. One thing I will say that I've tried to do slightly differently is I try to show more vulnerability with the kids, right?

1:08:05Like my dad is the best dad in the world. He's not a guy who says he's sorry terribly frequently, right? Like I apologize to my kids a fair amount, right? Like, hey man, I messed that up. I'm really sorry. Like, you know, this is my first time being a dad, you know, like that kind of stuff. And like, those are things I do think that I hope help us, you know? But the person that came to mind, one person, I think Pat Grady does a good job being strong and vulnerable. And I'll tell you some examples, like, you know, he works at Sequoia for people who don't know. But like, I think one, like he is willing to tell you, like, he sort of is honest about how much it means to him.

1:08:39Right. Which I think, and his voice shakes sometimes. He definitely cries more than most people, particularly in like our kind of office. But like his voice will shake with emotion sometimes. Not of anger, but like he just like really cares, you know, until that comes through. Sometimes he'll tell you like, you know, I'm worried I'm kind of like losing my edge. I'm worried I'm not in it enough. Like, you know, and I think for me that helps because I find the current job, I mean, it's like a hard job. Right. And I think he's had a lot of success. And I actually think that there is a benefit that he doesn't even know that comes out from him saying, like, recognizing that it's hard and saying, like, look, like, I'm afraid that I'm not doing this as well.

1:09:18I'm afraid that we're not doing this as well. And I think that it certainly helped me a lot that he demonstrates that vulnerability because someone who's newer to it is sort of like, it's okay to feel that way. I'm not supposed to feel like I always got it. You know, so I actually, interestingly enough, I think the best people do tend to do it. I do think it's much more rare than it should be. And part of what I hope we can do is like, you know, admit it a bit more. And then what's the next step is not vulnerability in the past tense. Oh man, I used to go through this really tough time. It was really hard.

1:09:52It's vulnerability in the present tense. Like right now it's fucking hard and here's why. And I think that's like another bar, but that I think is the most valuable vulnerability. It's not just like talking about how you came through it. It's like talking about when you're in it and like, what are you gonna do about it? You know? What about the urge to dominate just in general? Like you said, nothing feels better than winning. Yeah. Yeah. And most of the stuff we've talked about today, most of the most legible missions is kind of that. It's dominating. The books that sell the best, the stories that get told the most in business, in the military, in all these domains that everyone loves learning about.

1:10:35I mean, the reality is it's often human against human and the desire to win and beat other people. Maybe say a bit about the feelings you've had of that urge to dominate and what you've learned from it. I'll let these guys tell better stories, but like, I actually think that's, I'm okay with that tension. And I mean that, like, I think that the way I square that is like as a team, as long as it's with my team, as long as it's with the people I want to ride with. then yeah, like let's dominate it and let's dominate whatever it is that we're going up against. And like, I almost don't care if it's consistent.

1:11:13You know what I'm saying? As long as it feels like, okay. And like consistent, it feels like good for me to, my test is like not consistency. It's whether I would tell the kids it's okay. You know? And like, I actually tell the kids all the time, like, yeah, you should want to like dominate the things you're doing. It's okay for you to try to want to win. But ideally you do it as part of a team. And ideally you do it with, you know, whoever you are. Right. And the strength and the vulnerability and all that. But like, yeah, like I, I am okay. And in fact, kind of proud of the fact that like, I am nasty competitive and want to dominate and want to win.

1:11:47And I think part of the thing for me is like, it doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. You know, like you can still be like a good dude. But yeah, like I find that to be pretty like in line with my personality. And I'm okay with that. The biggest takeaway I took away from my teachings, my days with Daryl Moore and Sam Henke, right, is to understand how much winning is actually luck and randomness, right? For as much as us as successful people think we control the process or the narrative and the outcome, so much goes into winning and dominating your opponent that a lot of it's out of your control.

1:12:30But what you can control is the process, the inputs that go into the output, right? Are you as good at that in your personal life as you were professionally? Because I remember you told me that professionally you were good at that. I think so. I think so. Sometimes you lose focus. We all love to win, right? And when you win, you think you had a big part in it. For sure. but really, really, really focusing on the work, the process, the attitude, the consistency, all the things you control. Again, when you win, that's what you give credit to. You really give credit to, I just was better than my opponent, right?

1:13:13No, we had a great plan and we had a great team, right? Yeah, yeah. Did you ever see that interview with Shaq after they won the high school championship and the reporter said, Shaq, wow, congratulations on the win. to what do you attribute your team's success? And he said, I attribute it to me.

1:13:32There's also that. I think he might have been right. There's also that. That talent difference was pretty different. Everyone wasn't on that level. Look, my battles with Kobe Bryant, I've had games where he scored 60 points on me, and I've had games where he shot seven for 30 against me. or I've been on both ends of this. Same input, different output. Same input, different output. And with wins and losses, kind of like opposite almost to that, right? Yeah, exactly. And I take solace in the fact that, you know what? I did what I wanted to do and I did it as hard and as enthusiastically as I could.

1:14:09And you live with the results. So maybe a weak answer, but that's how I think about it. Unfortunately, we're at the point where I need to ask my traditional closing question of everybody. I'm so excited to hear you guys chop it up like this every week. I hope for a very long time. I've been lucky to be able to listen to the first seven or eight of these already. And when people get a chance to hear you guys tell your stories, reflect on the lessons, it is such an amazing jolt as a listener every week. And I'm so appreciative that we get to play a small role in that and do it with you guys. So this has been so much fun.

1:14:44And my traditional closing question for everybody is to ask, what is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? We've already answered this. You want to jump on it? No, you've answered this. Yeah, we get two. We get two. Ravi's already. Yeah, exactly. Alex, sounds like it's your turn. I'll give two quick things. I mean, certainly fatherhood, I just said, is the greatest gift that I've had. My three kids. I mean, that's it. You know, like it just is. It's something that I don't take for granted. that, uh, is be hard. It's hard for me to put into words. Um, with that, I'm just a fun story.

1:15:25So my wife's going to hate that I'm telling this because it, you know, this is, this is the, the nicest thing maybe. Um, when I was coming back from my leg injury, it was, it was a long process, two year process. And throughout the entire time, you know, I'm getting regular, uh, scans and x-rays on my leg. And I had what was called, and I still have what's called a non-union, which means my leg's still broken. Okay. And I have a steel rod in there, but there was this spot that's not healing. And so even as I was like kind of progressing through my rehab, it wasn't looking good that this prognosis, right.

1:16:02Um, and so meanwhile, I'm kind of pushing ahead, um, figuring out like, if I, I want to push the limits of what I can do. You know, I've said, I want to play football again, which was crazy, but I'm kind of like, you know, again, I'm learning to walk. I'm learning to, to, to jog and jump and run and do these things all over again. And then COVID hits and the world shuts down. And so I go from getting regular scans to no scans at all. And cause like, right, like I, it's just not happening. And so meanwhile, I've got to the point where I'm like lacing up cleats now. And I'm, and I've told you guys this, like I'm recruiting every high school kid I can find to come run routes.

1:16:41My wife's playing defensive end and rushing, you know, passer. And I'm trying to see if I can like, you know, get out of harm's way and just, I'm, I'm like loving this. This is like still a special time for me looking back in hindsight. Um, even though the world was obviously kind of chaotic. and uh so i go this span of like almost eight nine months without imaging done and here we are we're getting towards the 2020 season and i i knew at this like it was kind of as we're getting here towards this time of year right like right training camps going on it was kind of like make or break time like my wife had even said like this is either happening or it's not right like it's this year or never now or never kind of thing and so i go back to dc and I get a big round of imaging done.

1:17:30And again, it had been like eight months and I'm just kind of, it had always been bad news. I'm expecting kind of more of the same because I got to get clearance to get played, to play, to have a chance to even try to attempt this comeback. And so I got all these MRI, CT scans, x-rays all done. And my lead doctor in DC is like, hey, why don't you and Elizabeth come over, you know, like tomorrow night and we'll talk about everything. and I'm like, shit, this is not good, right? Like he's, we haven't done this. Like we've become incredibly close over two years, but like, this is not good. And so my wife and I go over there and I'm like, definitely, you know, expecting bad news.

1:18:09All the military docs that were consulting on my leg, plus my team of surgeons in DC, it all kind of conferred on the images. We meet him over in his backyard. He pours tequila for everybody. And I'm just like, fuck. And then he says it. and he's like, you're good to go. It's healed enough, right? And I'm like, no shit. I have this like the dumbest grin on my face because I'm asking him all these questions that like I thought like I'd never be able to do again. I'm like, I can go like mountain biking, rock climbing, skiing, snowboarding, right? Like bungee jumping. Like, you know, like you name these like extreme things that I never thought I'd be able to do again.

1:18:52And he's like, yeah. and and then it kind of hits me in that moment that oh shit he's gonna let me play football and my stomach dropped like in that moment and I immediately get in my head again and I'm I'm worried I'm anxious because I'm like oh because forever it it seems so unattainable it was so far away that like while I was chasing it right like it just I never was gonna get there and now it's, it's here. Like it's in front of me. Like camp starts in a couple of days and I just got the green light and it's like, Oh fuck. Like what if my leg breaks again? What if I make a fool out of myself?

1:19:33Like I got permanent drop foot. I got a bunch of crazy shit. I got to try and deal with like this, this could go wrong in so many ways. Right. And I want off this so badly. Like I want like this train I'm on, get me off. And my wife's there and we leave and we just go sit in the car. And as we're like exiting, I am like just praying she throws me a lifeline. Like we get in this car and she says, you know what, babe? We just got this great news, like the rest of our life. Like, do we really need football? Like, and I want her so badly to like, give me this, right? Like, cause like, I'll take it right now.

1:20:12Like, you know, again, like I'm scared to death. Just again, self doubt. and uh we get in the car and just and we just sit there and just I think she absolutely could sense she knows me you know better than anybody and could sense where I was at and all my apprehension and we just sat and talked and about regret kind of about life um about the two years of work that I had been putting in. Right. And then like, if you had a flashback two years prior, when I was sitting in that hospital bed and they were talking about like amputating my leg, if you'd asked that guy then, like, I would have jumped at that.

1:20:58Like, are you fucking kidding me? Hell yeah. Like, you know, like I never thought that would happen. And now here I have it in front of me and I'm going to turn it down. Right. Like I'm going to turn my back on this and And I a thousand percent like her. And she hates this because it's not like she was like pushing me back to play. But like just talking to me like so real. And again, like she carried such a burden for those two years. Like she nursed me back to health. I mean, I had a pick line in my heart. Like she had to like we had ran. I was in a wheelchair for six months. Like it just was she carried such a burden, like keeping the house together.

1:21:36And if there was someone that deserved to be like, let's not, you know, no more like she did. And I think to just put everything in perspective and help me deal with all of that in that moment was such a real thing and such a strong thing. And I don't think, like, I don't know if I could have done it if the roles had been reversed. And, uh, like my life, if I think about my life would be so different if I hadn't done that. Yeah. like so different like the free like knowing i mean i thought i was fragile uh this my leg had shattered i was like immune compromised like you know and the freedom i have going forward uh the mindset because of that like in that moment and to think like that i i wanted out of there right and again for her to help me work through that uh again like is it was a sorry to be long winded, but that really, really cool gift.

1:22:35Incredible. I'm glad that Shane and I have answered this question on previous podcasts. So we can end with that. Gentlemen, I can't wait for the episodes ahead. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you for having us. It was awesome. If you enjoyed this episode, check out joincolossus.com. There you'll find every episode of this podcast complete with transcripts, show notes, and resources to keep learning. You can also sign up for our newsletter, Colossus Weekly, where we condense episodes to the big ideas, quotations, and more, as well as share the best content we find on the internet every week.

1:23:31Thank you.