Keeping Up With the Cult

27:25We don't have cookouts. We don't have any fucking thing like that. It is Lee Greenwald snooze fest. It's just all black culture. Lee Greenwald. I think that part of it, the segregation that still exists in this country is really at the heart of it. And it's everywhere. It's not just in rural America. I live in Manhattan. It's very segregated here. Really? Oh, yes. It's very segregated here. I lived in D.C. It's pretty segregated there too. American communities are divided along racial lines largely to a lesser degree socioeconomic lines. But that is still the way that most people live. So where we live, my daughter, we go to the park in our neighborhood.

28:20Eight out of 10 times, she's the only black kid in the park. There are dozens of kids running around. She's the only one. And so many kids are still growing up, never having been in close proximity to a person of color. So they don't know what to do. And we cannot pretend that children do not see difference. They do. Of course. Okay. They know long hair. They know short hair. They know dark skin. They know light skin. They see it. But the question is, what do they do with that information? How do we teach them how to process that information in a healthy way, in a way that helps them understand that we are all human beings and that we can all live together and that the differences, the physical differences between us do not actually amount to all that much.

29:12And I don't think that we are doing a very good job of teaching children that. I think there's also an effort to do the exact opposite, to pretend like that doesn't exist. And that, or also, I mean, frankly, I have spent a lot of time looking at, you know, partisan, what partisans are saying, what the far right's saying, what the left is saying, right? And what the far right talks about a lot when it comes to race is that we are different. They are dangerous. They are a threat to us as white people. That's actually a real thing that people say. No, it is. It is. And I've been a little bit shocked.

29:57I don't want to overstate it because I've been covering politics for a long time, so I've seen a lot of things. But it is so sad to me that that is being said and those people are not being ostracized. I agree with that. We have worked so hard as a country to not believe those things. And I really believe that the vast majority of people in this country do not believe those things, Or they do not think that it is right to take a whole category of people and say they're bad, they're violent, they're stupid. The whole structure does that. And there are some people who are literally, they have millions of followers.

30:30They have huge followings. And this is what they preach. And the problem with our politics right now is that those types of voices are not being properly ostracized. I agree. And we've got to get to a place where we talk to the real people in this country, the ones that are not racist and the ones that are not crazy and the ones that are not pushing us into the far corners of division. And the only reason I can get up every day and do this is because I really believe there are way more of those people around than not. See, I have felt that like there are more of us than them in a lot of ways. And I think with the Charlie Kirk murder, that's when I thought this racism, like Charlie Kirk, I hate that he was murdered.

31:24I hate that he was, you know, all the terrible things that happened to him. But that does not change the fact that he was a racist and he was a misogynist. But yet in D.C., they're like the state of Oklahoma was like low. I mean, I know federally they did the flags, but we had a superintendent that wanted to put curriculum and talk about Charlie Kirk. I'm like, he was not a hero. I think I think what she's saying is there is it where we live in Oklahoma. That racism that you said about they're different, they're dangerous. That is very real. And that has never gone anywhere. And it is mainly a part of white evangelical culture, which is different from black evangelical culture, which is about social justice and things.

32:10White evangelical culture, if you search it back, are the origins of the KKK. And it's still very, very prevalent. Pumps has family members that say those very things. And I agree with you that a little bit of cancel culture needs to be retained for this type of racism because it hurts all of us. It hurts everybody. And when I see you on CNN sometimes, and I hear people diminishing DEI, you know, some guy, and I knowing how much harder you had to work, how much smarter you are, you know, to get into Harvard. Here's a prime example. Like my sons, when they took the ACT, how much is the ACT prep test?

32:56Okay, here's your check. Go take the ACT prep test. The black kids that played on Roman's AAU basketball team, did they get to do the ACT prep? No. Their parents couldn't afford it. I know that he is already getting affirmative action through my bank account. I know that. And I think that we have to have these conversations and normalize these conversations because what happened in the 80s where like either you were a racist or you just weren't allowed to talk about race wasn't helpful either. Yeah. Listener, the hot book of the summer. Oops, I have it the wrong way. Take two. Listener, the hot book of the summer is now the cool book of the fall.

33:40It is, in Trump's America, I can tell you with absolute certainty, the best book that has ever been written. And believe me, a lot of people are talking about it. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's talking about it. It took us one day to write it. On day one. Because we took a cognitive test and it was book, write, done. All right. Anyway, please buy our book. It's a great way to support us. It is a really fun read for the fall. Curl up with your pumpkin spice lattes and just enjoy living the American dream and dipshit trumps America.

34:25I've been thinking a lot about this idea of cancel culture, right? Because when you brought that up, it kind of brought that to my mind. And I also think about the show that I do every night in which we affirmatively say we want voices at the table that are truly diverse, where we can really understand the range of views that exist in this country. So we work really hard to make sure that there are actual MAGA voices at the table. That is important because I also think that we need to air it out. Let's put it on the table. Sometimes I think about the 80s and the quiet bigotry that existed at that time.

35:16And I do wonder, would we be better off if we just knew, if people just actually were up front about their views rather than it's kind of like underneath the surface? Yeah, I don't see Keller. Yeah, just a little bit kind of like hidden. And, you know, so I think that there is something about that time where people had maybe racist views, but they didn't, they hid it. They didn't want people to know. And I don't know that it helps us to pretend like it's not happening. I think we should really understand what are the contours of our politics? What are we really talking about here? What do you really believe and what do I really believe?

35:58And let's air that out. So I think that there's a conversation that needs to actually happen. And when I say that there are these reprehensible views that I think should be on the far corners of our politics, what I really mean is that our leaders, the people who actually run this place, this country, should have the guts to say, we don't believe those things. The tent is not open to those people. And I think that's true of the far right. There are elements of the far left that that is true of. And I don't know if that's really cancel culture so much as like leadership, which is to say we are going to we're going to draw the boundaries.

36:46What do you do when the racists are in charge like they are now? Well, look, you know, I mean, like Stephen Miller is a white supremacist. I mean, he is. And he's basically running the White House. They keep Trump busy with his decorating projects. He's got building the arch now. He's got his Oval Office design. And then you have these real sociopaths that are real anti-Semites, true white supremacists like Stephen Miller. And even though he's Jewish, he's like a Nazi Jew. Well, look, I can't speak to what Stephen Miller's motivations are. I've met him. I've talked to him. I've interviewed him.

37:21How tall is he? Yeah, we're dying to know. Oh, God, I can't remember that. Short? I truly cannot remember him. I am short. So my understanding of people's height is not great. And, you know, I just I do think that you have to understand what motivates the people who are in power. If people are in power, you got to understand what their what their ideology is, like truly understand what motivates them, where they're going. And I do think that that requires listening. I mean, I listen to what the Steve Bannons of the world say. I listen very carefully to what Stephen Miller says because it really tells you where this is all heading.

38:07And my only point is that we do need to hear those things. And I think there are a lot of people in the country that really never hear what is being said on the other side. And if you disagree with it, if you don't hear it and understand it and understand the motivations behind it, it's going to be really hard for you to figure out how to combat it. And then on the other side, on the right, there is also a similar lack of hearing. They don't hear a lot of what you believe. They don't understand it. They don't. It's just when you're consuming media on the right, you really don't hear what people on the left are saying at all.

38:50And so there needs to be a space where people can actually hear each other. And we can hear the real thing, not the watered down version of it. And I do think that that is going to be uncomfortable for people to experience. That's why our show, it can be very uncomfortable for people because they're like, I can't believe this person is saying that. And I'm just saying, you better believe it because half the country believes that one way or another on the left or the right, half the country believes what these folks are saying. Believe it and listen to it and understand it. And also maybe there's a part of your mind that you might say, well, that little piece of what they're saying is not wrong.

39:40I disagree with everything else that they said, but that little piece of what they're saying is not wrong. And that little piece of what they're saying on the other side is not wrong. And I think that even if that happens like 10 % of the time, I think that's actually more than what most people experience in their day-to-day consuming of information on the internet and on television. And I do think people get better when they have disagreements. Like when Jennifer and I disagree or we have different perspectives, I feel like I learn from her perspective and vice versa. Yeah, I do. I mean, I just feel like you get better when you hear everybody's perspective.

40:14And even if I disagree with somebody's perspective on the right, I agree with you that you have to understand where they're coming from. Because what we have right now is a phenomenon where you have someone like Zoran Mamdani, who is getting triple Trumpers to vote for him. A democratic socialist is getting people that voted for Trump three times to vote for him. AOC's experienced this. Graham Plattner, the senatorial candidate in Maine. Well, so what's the connection between these far left democratic socialists and these MAGA triple Trumpers? Affordability. Yeah, economic interests. Yes. You know, I think about that all the time because as I was writing this book about Jesse Jackson's campaigns, you know, this is not a shameless plug.

41:03It's just an actual connection here. I mean, he was running on economic, you know, interests that are shared between people of all of these different backgrounds. He called it the Rainbow Coalition, but it was a coalition of people who shared a common interest in economic prosperity, in bringing – MAGA talks about America first. He talked about instead of spending money on foreign wars, let's spend that money at home. And I think that's fundamentally the basis on which those campaigns in 1984 and 1988 were run. And one of the things that people don't know that Jesse Jackson did was that he spent a lot of time with farmers.

41:53He was in Missouri and he was in Iowa and he was in more rural parts of Michigan and other parts of the country in the south as well on farms, on tractors, rallying with farmers. I remember that. Talking to white people. There's a part of the book where I mentioned that during the campaign, he went back to Selma, Alabama to campaign. And there was a local white official who had been one of the state troopers who was on the Edmund Pettus Bridge beating civil rights marchers. and he gave Jesse Jackson a key to the city and said, I was on the other side of the Selma March all those years ago, but now I'm giving you the keys to the city.

42:44And look, I mean, that's the kind of thing. I mean, a lot had changed between the 60s when the civil rights movement was so deadly and so bloody and the 80s. But Jesse Jackson was going to white people and saying, we have more in common than we have that's different. And fundamentally, what we have in common is that the populism of it all was that the powers that be are not working for us. Government is working for big corporations. They're working for special interests and they're not working for you. And that's the kind of message that someone like Zoran Mamdani and Bernie Sanders and AOC are running on.

43:31And to an extent, Donald Trump. Yes, you're exactly right. And I think that's actually what I think is so interesting is that there is something there. Populism is not a new thing. Right. Right. It's been around for a long time. But the way that it has manifested in our politics has gone the spectrum all the way from, you know, Jesse Jackson to Donald Trump. And that's because there is a yearning in the American populace and really a lot of places for people to feel heard, for people to feel listened to, for them to feel like somebody is interested in the things that matter to them in terms of their survival and their families and how they make it through a day.

44:15And that's part of the lesson. That's part of the lesson of this book. And also, you know, there's something in Jesse Jackson's story about talking across difference. Another scene that I talk about in the book, as he was running for president, I think this was in 1984, he went down to visit George Wallace, who famously said, segregation now, segregation forever. And George Wallace had been shot in an assassination attempt and was not in good shape. He was in a wheelchair. And Jesse Jackson went down there and visited him at his home. And they sat on the porch and they drank tea and ate food. And they talked about running for president.

45:11And George Wallace talked about how he was an avid segregationist. And there he was sitting with Jesse Jackson, a civil rights leader, and giving him advice on how to run for president. And I do sometimes think, I mean, could something like that happen today? Like, would we tolerate someone going and visiting a former segregationist and sitting with them in their home? And I think the reason – I don't know the reason why he did that, but I think one of the reasons that he did that was to basically say, we have to move forward as a country. And we have to do so by acknowledging what happened in the past, renouncing what happened in the past, and holding hands together and walking into the future.

46:04And I do think that that's kind of always been Jesse Jackson's message, which was like, I'm not going to say I'm not going to talk to you because you're a racist, but I'm going to tell you what we have in common and ask you to move past your prejudices and move forward together with me. And he's always been willing to do that in a way that I think rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, surprised a lot of people, maybe confused a lot of people. But at the very least, it's interesting. I think there are some lessons in there about the ways in which he didn't just say this guy is irredeemable. I mean, you could easily have said that George Wallace was irredeemable.

46:49But he went to his house and said, first of all, you're going to have me in your home. I mean, I think that alone is a flex, right? Yeah, absolutely. To show up and just to say, you know, I'm there. But also to say that the future of the country is going to mean that we are going to help you move into the future where you abandon these reprehensible views. And black people have always had to do that. We've always had to help white people abandon their reprehensible views and walk into the future together. That's what I was. And Jesse Jackson has been that person. He did it in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s and so on and so forth.

47:33And I think a lot of people think of him, I mean, on the right, maybe even on the left, as this sort of like race hustler kind of figure that's always talking about race. But he wasn't talking about race to divide people. First of all, he was talking about race to say, you have political power, black people. You have the power to vote. You should use that power. But he was also saying, we're all in this together. It was a rainbow coalition. Black people, white people, gay people. He was one of the first people to talk about gay people openly at a democratic convention. It was about saying, we see who you are, and we're going to all be in this together going forward into the future.

48:18That race hustler, I think that is a trope that a lot of white people use when black people make them feel uncomfortable. And I remember when he was running and lived in an all-white neighborhood, went to an all-white public school. Maybe I graduated with six, 700 people. Maybe there's three or four black kids. I mean, as white as an upbringing as you can get. And I remember him running. And I remember my parents kind of liking him, but I remember just the general vibe was the typical, oh, he's a crazy black person. That was the vibe. Because the color of his skin and because he spoke so openly about human rights, race, whatever he spoke about, the white default setting is to call him a race hustler and then be dismissive.

49:07And I remember that. And I was probably at, you know, 10 to 15 somewhere during that time. Yeah. But that was the default setting that the white culture that I grew up in, where a black person, no matter what they said, it was automatically dismissed. Dimeaned. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons, frankly, that I wrote this book. When I started going back through the clips and reading how he was talked about, it was so clear to me that even in the contemporaneous coverage of him as a candidate, people could never see past his blackness. And also the fact that he was a part of the civil rights movement, which a lot of people still thought was a radical thing.

49:50And when people did show up at his rallies, and sometimes people would come just out of curiosity, they would come out of those rallies thinking, oh, he actually is saying what I believe. He's actually standing up for us. in today's world you can only imagine somebody at the time in the 1980s he was so well known he was oh yeah so well known i mean very popular among the people who loved him but even if you didn't love him you knew who he was national right yeah totally he was a massive national figure i mean there are photos in the book of him with don king and donald trump and yeah and donald trump was everywhere.

50:33And Donald, you know, they were at a, you know, at a fight, you know, a boxing match together. I mean, these were the types of people he was with Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson. I mean, he was one of the most famous people in America. And if that were transplanted to the 21st century with the internet, I can only imagine how this would have been a different story. Totally. A totally different story. Totally. And in many ways, I think that you have Jesse Jackson that probably played a huge role in priming the electorate for having a black president, Barack Obama. In many, many ways. Bernie Sanders is priming the electorate to rid themselves of corporate interest and go back to the people.

51:15He never won. Bernie Sanders never won. But they do important national work that helps move the pulse of the electorate. Okay, Abby, we have to play a quick lightning round of had it or hit it. Oh, my God. Welcome to had it or hit it. I would hit it. I hit it every day, sometimes twice a day. All right. Had it or hit it. Generational warfare. Had it. The Gen Z versus millennials. Yeah. I'm sorry. Like we were cool once, too. I bet you guys feel that, right? Like, yeah, I'm over it. I don't know that I was ever cool. I was. I was super cool. I mean, I thought I was, but looking back at pictures, I think.

51:57I'm like, listen, listen, Gen Z, you guys are also going to grow up one day and they're going to be making fun of you. That's right. Right. It's coming. But I still think we're cool. Okay. Had it or hit it. TikTok dances. Had it. I'm over it. I'm over it. I'm sorry. I know. Like 2 % of the time, it's great. And then the rest of the time, it's cringe for me. I know that that's controversial, but I just. I agree with you. If they're really good, I like it. But when I see just the girl that's like in the grocery store aisle, I'm like, what are you doing? You cannot do TikTok dancing in the grocery store.

52:34Also, ma 'am, this is a sidewalk. Right. People have to go places. Please do not be recording your TikTok dance on a sidewalk. I'm sorry. I would have had that for sure. Had it or hit it, Harvard University. I'm sorry. I put you in a pickle. Hit it. But I think, can I just say one really quick thing? I know this is rapid fire. Harvard University does an enormous amount to make sure that people who otherwise would not have the chance to graduate from college, graduate from college. I am one of those people. They have incredibly generous financial aid. They do not let anybody not graduate because of an inability to pay.

53:15And I wish more universities, public and private, many of the IVs I think do this, but I wish they would be more like Harvard in that respect. And do not let a failure to pay prevent people from graduating. And people give Harvard such a bad rap, but they are so good about that. And I'm a graduate, so I'm biased. But I do think that one of the biggest problems we have in this country is people going bankrupt trying to get an education. And we've got to stop that. Anyway, end of rant. I like it. All right. Last one. Last one. Had it or hit it. The United States of America. Hit it. I am still here for this country.

53:53Listen, we are good. We are here going to be 250 years old and, and we are going to be here. Okay. I, I do think it's been worse than this in the sense, in the global scheme of things. Are you kidding me? There's no question. We are going to get through this just like we've gotten through everything else. And the process of us getting through this is really just about how you decide what kind of American you want to be. Are you going to be one of those Americans that makes the country better? Or are you going to be one of the Americans who gets us deeper into division? And I think that this is the moment for all of us to decide what part of the history we want to be in and write our own story.

54:42and do the work. Do the work of making this a great country. We're on team better. Yeah. We're on team better, although sometimes I'm on team better. Hey, I'm on team America all day, every day. I think that we have the fundamental capacity to be better in a way that is head and shoulders above every other country on this planet. I really do think so. It is the self-correcting ability that we have that is what makes us different. And that's not an automatic thing. It's because there are people who live here who make that happen. And I think that that's going to continue to be the case. So, yeah.

55:19I agree. Abby, I love having you on. I cannot wait to read your book because he was such a part of the political landscape growing up. It's always a pleasure to see you. You will learn a lot, I think. And listen, it's the good, the bad and the ugly. Like he's a real person, right? And I don't believe in telling sugarcoated stories. I tell the real deal. And I think you'll learn a lot about him as a person and about us as a country. And it'll be interesting to you, even if you lived through it, which many people did. I'm excited. Yeah. Thanks, Abby. I'll see you soon. Thank you guys. Great to see you.

55:53Listener, we'll see you next Tuesday and Thursday. Yeah. Okay. Bye.

55:59I'll tell you what I've had it with.

56:04Listen up, patriots, gaytriots, and natriots. We have a new podcast that has dropped. It's called iHip News. It's Monday through Friday, every day, 15 to 20 minute hot takes on the political landscape of the United States of America, always served with a side of petty grievances. We are on all the available platforms, Apple, Spotify, Google, whatever you get your podcasts and YouTube. Please go rate, subscribe, and review so that we will chart upwards with America's greatest legal mind. Pumps. Pumps. What does an eagle say? Caca! A little bit more enthusiasm. Caca! That's it. That's, that's...

56:45Caca! That's the patriotism that this country needs right there.