601 - I COULD MURDER A PODCAST - Virginia McCullough Case, WORST Medieval Torture Methods, & Mr and Mr Game!

32:58From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. How important is Dan to the pod? oh it's very important i mean for production value um for all the he works on all the trailers as well and like all the kind of sound work and he's a huge part especially when we do our kind of every season we like to do a kind of announcement video when we're coming back um so we work with a director sam lance to do that he does all the filming and dan does all the sound works to change the music and yeah and now he's a lot more involved with just kind of in general with kind of talking throughout the episodes and reading throughout the episodes so yeah massive massive like we're saying with me and stevie on the pod we just we can talk about anything um i book the guests stevie doesn't necessarily care who the guests are not today yeah but there's like there's no you never like say that oh no kind of them so we never argue never fall out or anything sometimes he goes i think i need more than three percent but do you go because you guys obviously have to cover big things sad things sometimes um you have to, there's a line that you, there's an invisible line.

34:04So do you ever fall out? Do you ever disagree on things? Do you ever, do you ever say we can't do that case? Someone else thinks you can. I don't think we've ever said no. Like there's been cases in the past recently, which I've been less pumped for, but Ben and Dan wanted to do it. And then they've done really well. So I've learned to kind of just, if they really strongly want to do it, it's probably going to do well. So I don't think we've fallen out on that kind of thing. um obviously with what we do is true crime and light-hearted true crime which is a bit of a niche in itself and i think like before we've disagreed maybe i'm cutting something out or keeping something in right um for more the comedic value of it yeah and i think like boncy our editor who he's a big part of it as well um he'll he'll leave a lot in kind of um things which we're like how how has he left that in but he i think he just wants us to see it because it's funny yeah and we we do a lot of things to make each other laugh during the episodes, which we think we'll never, never make it in.

35:02So maybe it surprises us. Yes. We are very heavily edited. All right. Yeah. Really? Yeah. How long would you say you record for one episode and then it cuts down? Like how much would you say is cut out? Probably filming for like two hours and 20 for a lot of them. And then it's cut down to like an hour, 30, hour, 40. Yeah. Oh, wow. We'd only cut out a few minutes, don't we? Yeah. If that, but the thing is that we're reading pages and pages of script. So it's always, a lot of it is as well. And you both say a lot of slurs. Yeah, of course. But it's like just kind of, you know, you make a mistake when you're reading a paragraph again.

35:36So that kind of thing, that cuts down quite a lot. One thing that I would say adds at least 15 minutes is location pronunciations. Because the slightest, if you get someone local to that place listening to the episode, particularly in America, and you mispronounce a tiny element of it. You know, people like to, I'm not very good at, I know we were talking before we started filming about YouTube comments, Reddit comments, things like that, I can't look at them. Do they get to you? I've got very thin skin, it might surprise you. But Tom and Dan handle that side of things. And it's just literally, if you mispronounce a single word in a two and a half hour episode or two hour episode, whatever, that's it.

36:10It's enough for someone to switch off. I kept getting told that I was mispronouncing, do you remember that fucking town? Because I kept... I'm so focused. No, it was hull, but I was saying shit hull. Do you remember? Fuck. they do not like me in part it's already I like that he's got what Salford because I remember you've done that before that's obviously you've stayed with him isn't it what have I done about Salford Salford I think I don't know am I am I misremembering but I swear since you last came on last time you said there were a couple of cases you'd never cover but then I feel like you did cover them there was cases where I think well early on when we were doing it my mum was like oh she said like that case would be one sticks out for her she wasn't bothered really about covering it and at first I was like oh maybe I won't cover that one which was the Dunblane massacre but that one like I think all jokes of a sudden it is good to remember certain cases and like how that's changed like history and different laws and all those regulations and we had lots of comments from people from Dunblane really lovely stuff and like I think some people find it very cathartic listening to that and even we've had cases where we had someone messaging us from uh who was at the who's at the virginia tech shooting the student at the time and she's and when you see that first line of that you're like like this is your heart sings you're like i don't know what this is going to be yeah right um but they said that they really liked how we delivered it and think it's important to talk about it so someone who was out there at the time it really kind of reaffirms what we're trying to do but some people do listen to us joking around a little bit at the beginning which is the only kind of time we can definitely joke around when it's not about the case at all but they'll be like oh it's so disrespectful to laugh and joke when you're about to do why are you talking about curly fries yeah half an hour now but yeah why are you talking about curly fries you should be talking about this yeah but then we have curly fries once a week a lot yeah favorite right cheese yeah relish yeah i'm not a curly fry man are you not no that's that's not really a fry man chips chips i like a chip shop chip yeah i like a chip shop chip i remember being around your house once and you went to the butchers and you asked for eight pounds of sausages that's true do you remember when we when we cooked the gammon and we gave the soup yeah yeah yeah gammon's better than bacon boy and i was like don't know about that little puddle of gammon yeah yeah it was like because it was all this water was coming out but it went was it frozen nah no i don't know but it was like a gammon soup it's horrible absolutely horrible how do you guys stop cases from getting to you because obviously we're only here in an hour and a half of an episode but the research and stuff that you're you're literally reading the most horrific stuff and you're taking all of that in i imagine you're watching interviews and videos and documentaries about these things as well you're consuming so much more than what your listeners are consuming how does that not get to you it's really weird because i've i came into the podcast just being it was our second option after wanting to do a vr headset comedy skit thing on youtube and both of us got really bad motion sickness with the headsets so we beat that off tom had the name i could murder a podcast and we were like right i've always been a huge fan of true crime and whenever netflix drops the latest series i'm straight on it yeah don't do that now right because i've become so sort of especially if we're in a main channel sort of run i'll watch two or three documentaries about that case i'll read books articles um watch interviews with survivors and it's yeah you do start to just be like i need something i need something different he's recommended detectorists to me which i think yeah yeah what are you the same where you just watch like comedy or light things when you're at home or well i used to listen to lots of true crime podcasts beforehand and like i still do now for research purposes but there's been a few cases i think stand out in particular way that this is like you need to take a break and walk away from it i think in there's been a couple episodes where like you can hear in a couple where like um but ben and dan have got upset with reading out loud because it kind of really kind of hits home especially and you can tell the episodes when we're not joking around as well there's a different kind of vibe in the end when we're doing it but we we do try and make like for our own kind of mental health as well when we're doing the episodes we'll we will put like little typos in to try and put the other one off and change words to the most unimaginably offensive things ever yeah just to make each other laugh which get cut out obviously um but that's the way i think for us to kind of like i don't know lift each other up if it's getting a bit too bleak yeah i think so and i think yeah it is it is that like some people will listen i mean we've had people say to us they've listened to all of our episodes and that in a really quick time and all they're consuming is true crime and yeah it can be like heavy but um i don't know it's it's a tricky one i think like see if we couldn't be light-hearted when doing it i wouldn't want to do it like and that's been a discussion like behind the scenes in terms of some of the comments like oh if we just if we were just straight laced from the start do you think we'd be bigger probably probably would be because it's just factual and and that's what most people kind of want.

41:06But the people that really get it and get our humour, I think, yeah, really kind of buy into it, and that's the perfect audience, I think. Yeah, perfect. Boys, I want to play a game. Stevie and I have been doing this pod for seven years. You've been doing yours for five? Yes. So we want to know who knows more about the other one in a unique game that we've called Mr. and Mr. And if you've ever seen that on television before, they've got it from us. So I've got five questions for Tom about Benji and five questions about Benji for Tom. And I think, Tom, you've written some for us as well, haven't you?

41:43I wrote this a long time ago when we were going to go on last time and haven't seen them since, but I think they should hopefully still make sense. Same here. Are we going to go on trust here? Yes, we'll go on trust. So, for example, I'll ask Benji a question about Tom. Benji will answer and Tom will just reveal whether or not that's true or not. I don't think any of us, maybe Stevie, but any of us are pathetic enough to really care about winning this game. so yeah we'll go we'll go off trust so i'll tell you what i'll kick it off uh questions for tom about ben what would ben say is his worst tattoo oh that's a great question there's a few i feel your brother covered in them you ready do you know yours do you know what it is uh i know where i think i know where i think you're gonna go yeah that's not the that's not the game Okay.

42:32Well, yeah, I know what it is. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Because the one that Ben's going to answer would be his first tattoo, which is the yin yang fire and water. Yeah. Is it? That's where I was playing where your mind went, then yeah. That's not what I was going to say. No. What do you think your worst tattoo is? I've got on my toes, the knuckles on my toes, live and love. What? Yeah. Why? Yeah. where's laugh uh well in the middle if you keep wasn't long enough um yeah um i i i went to uh sixth form college with a tattooer um who was very open with you know uh from the ages of like 16 17 hand this tattoo gun around and stuff like that and i've always thought the knuckle on the hands tattoo was cool but yeah i don't think i can really pull that off less to my toes live love and this was kind of before the live love laugh I want to say that it might not have been what you were before that you just thought you know what two random words I'll have live and I'll have love I think it's there was a brand I could probably tweak it somehow there was a brand called Glamour Kills that had a live yeah it was like the pop punk kind of movement and it was they had a live love thing I've got a live love tattoo have you really yeah do you want to show them yeah it says live laugh lad baby fucking horrible that's nice isn't it I like it a lot I don't think the toes are...

43:57The yin yang is also fairly shocking. But that's zero points. Zero points. Who's next? Oh, yes. Oh, that's going to get confusing, isn't it? We could do Tom Benji, Tom Benji, like that. So what meal would Tom cook if he was hosting a dinner party and wanted to impress? Oh, wow. Well, it would definitely be vegan or veggie. It would have to be, wouldn't it? He's not impressing then, is he? Okay, sorry. really bad at this game. Okay, I'm going to go. I'm going to go. Tom would do a nice little pizza night.

44:34Shaking his head. Shaking his head. Well, if I'm cooking from scratch and I'm doing pizza, I think from scratch pizzas are hard. What, the dough? Yeah, the dough, right? The rest is easy. Yeah. Sorry. Live, love. Well, he's got it wrong. It's not a bloody well night. What would he do? What would you do? I would probably do like a more Mexican kind of a nice chili con carne with lots of like fresh guac salsa and homemade like tortilla chips. Lovely. Was that second on your list? No. Nowhere near it. Okay, Tom, what would Ben's I forgot I wrote this. I can't ask this. Go on. What would Ben's involvement in a true crime case be?

45:15You get compared to the cases quite a lot, don't you, in your episodes? I feel like they always kind of link you into them somehow. Oh, you were there around that time. Do I think Ben would stop if he did hit and run? That's the question that I think you're asking. If no one was around? Oh, she was old anyway. Hit and run, please. What would you say, Ben? That's a hard question for him to answer. Yeah, yeah. You could be the victim. Oh, yeah. Just involved in a true crime. Or in the team. There could be a victim. Okay, that's... Nigerian prince just the con just the con just the con a con oh yeah he could be scammed massively yeah yeah what were you what's the first thing that came to your head I've been taken advantage of in some way kind of there I think we're allowed that we can give that scammed I think yeah cool do you fall for the online scam I haven't yet but I always read them right I'll take into consideration I could imagine you buying something from eBay that didn't exist Oh yeah that's happened Yeah fair enough Benji, if we were to open Tom's phone right now, could you name his top three used emojis No can you name three emojis in his most commonly seen I think top three is too hard I don't even know how to see that Just go to send a text and it'll come up on the first page Oh you've got a weird phone Pixel mate, not weird I'd guess one of them One that I see quite a lot Is the salute Oh Okay I think that'll be in there Salute Yeah Do you want to help Grandad Jesus phone Yeah But they're not mine Recent Just recent yeah Okay yeah I'll go salute Is that in there Tom?

47:09See I would have thought It would be Yeah It's got sledge above that And I've used sledge Probably once in my life So I don't think Alright you can have the point Yeah I think sledge is fair Yeah Not sledge salute salute yeah he's got a laugh emoji's got to be in there laughing crying he's not much of a love heart boy so let's go let's go praying I must have thought that yeah okay they are cheating which is a real true crime in itself but we'll give them that we'll give them that definitely salute him Tom, if you had to compliment Benji on one thing, what would it be? So what's he... So you have to give him a compliment.

47:55He has to guess what he thinks you'd compliment him on. Oh, wow. I mean it, yeah? Could I guess it? He wouldn't say anything like that? Oh, that's sad. Yeah, sad, isn't it? What do you think he'd say? I think he'd say what I'm going to say first. You got one? You both got one? It shouldn't be that long. Yeah, I've got it. Go on then. Do you want me to guess what I think he would say? Yeah, go on then. Kind-hearted. Tom? I'd say generous. Oh! Similar. Yeah, you can have it. You can have it. I thought it was generous. Yeah, you're doing all right now. Don't take away the point. He's gone, I wouldn't say I'm generous.

48:31I wouldn't say you're kind-hearted. All right. Fair play to you. Cheers. Okay, what would Tom say is his greatest ever life achievement? Wow. Oh, I've got two things. I'm going to go with Marion Kay. Yeah, I did think that. Second was meeting Gervais. Not meeting Gervais, doing a podcast, making him laugh, probably be above meeting. It's tricky. It's tricky. I think maybe buying a house with Kay would be up there, the house we've got. But marriage we're giving you the point for. I think that's fair. Yeah? My brain did go there. Yes. Soppy answers. Okay, cool. What does Ben do that instantly pisses you off?

49:27Is it? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. He'll land you off. You know. Hmm. Instantly pisses me off. Yeah. Oh. Ben's going to love this. Thin skin. Yeah. There is a few. Do we need Ben to go first? Yeah. Instantly pisses me off. I'm off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, boy. Okay, quite often I'm late. Can't take criticism. Oh. That's a bit out of order, Mitch. Okay. You meant that. That's not a joke. No. If Tom had to move to any other city in the world, where would he go? Okay. I've got the country. I've got the country. I think I know the country. I think I know the country. I just need to get the right bloody city. Okay, let's go Auckland, New Zealand.

50:20New Zealand was my guess. Oh, yeah, I was definitely going to say that. Wellington. Wellington was on my tongue. Yeah, New Zealand, though. Do we allow it for the country? No, we don't. I was between that and Melbourne, because my sister lives there in Australia and it looks lovely. What current celebrity, if you had to pick one, would Ben say he fancies? Easy, easy. Yeah, go on. Juleepa. Oh, okay. in unison as well. He's like Princess Diana. Yeah. Yeah. And Jill. After the unison. Yeah. Okay, well. What's Tom's worst habit? Oh, there you go. Yeah, I've got it. Yeah, I've got it. Go on. Go on.

51:01Always has to be right.

51:05It's hard when someone's wrong a lot, isn't it? It has to be right around here, but yeah, I know. So that's five out of ten. Are we giving that? No. That also ties in with the criticism thing, doesn't it? We're getting a point twice, are we? Five out of ten, boys. Five out of ten. Five out of ten. Yeah, five out of ten. Now we've got to try and beat that, Stevie. We've got to try and beat that. I didn't think I'd care, but I actually do care now. Yeah, now we know it's beatable as well. Yeah. So would you like to do Jack and I'll do Stevie? How long have you guys known each other? 19 no nearly 20 nearly 20 years wow so you've got a few years on us as well oh have we we're 14 years in how's it going still enough alright cool yeah I'll do Jack so Jack who is Stevie's all time favourite guest on Happy Hour give me a minute that is tough That is tough.

52:13It's between... Ooh, comedian or a man that flew a plane. Give him clues. That way he's literally naming the worst. Yeah, the worst. Female fighter.

52:29I don't mean domestic abuse. Okay, no, I've got one. Okay. Can I say two? and if one of them's in there, I can ask them. I mean, that's a bit. That's one of six. Did we do that? We would have had Auckland, wouldn't we? Did we get three for the emojis? No, we gave you that. Just one for three. One point. Correct answers, that's mental. Let's give them it, let's give them it. To be fair, I don't know. Full sec, go on. I think I'm going to go Asim Chowdhury. First person that came to mind was Asim Chowdhury. Oh, point then. But I wasn't going to say him. Oh, see you saying him. I was going to say Adam Pearson just because loveliest man I've ever met.

53:11He brought us cookies, Jack. He brought us cookies. We got magazines of murder from him, but we got cookies from Adam. Stick to what the first thing in your fucking head is. Okay, I'll remember that for future rounds. We start off quite nice of our questions first off and then they get a bit more. Well, we've already got one wrong, mate. Just nice as in friendly questions. Oh, and then they turn cunty. So, Stevie, same question to you. Who is Jack's favourite all-time guest? Okay, yeah, got it. Oh, wow. Straight in. Depends if I'm going as a guest or as a person. Don't ever think about it. Okay, I'm going to go as a person.

53:46Mark Noble. Question says guest. Mark Noble on the board. Best guest you've had. That's not the question, it's his favourite guest. Favourite guest. All-time favourite guest. Yeah, Mark Noble. So, yeah, if Stevie was at the movies, as he calls it, or the flicks, what snacks, including drinks, is Stevie getting? Fuck it. That's a great, that's more of a... Okay, I'm at the movie. Yeah. Right, so are we doing like a food thing and then like a snack and then a drink? What? I'm at the cinema, Jack. Yeah, you're having snacks including drinks. Got you. Right, so I'm thinking hot food, right? I'm going to go...

54:18Don't give him your thinking. I hope you're working out. Just... Hot dog. Yes. Yeah, with ketchup, mayo. Yeah, I do love ketchup, mayo. Got it, got the point. And then I reckon he doesn't really like chocolate that much. So he's going to go popcorn. What popcorn? I know you don't need to say, I do like popcorn. You might go for a mix or salted or maybe just sweet. Don't do the psychic. Oh, his name's Darren. I prefer sweet. I'd go mixed, never just salted. Toffee over all, everything, but they don't do that. Chill out. And then a tangle ice blast. Fucking love a tangle ice blast. Would that be your thing again?

55:00Yeah. Mixed red and blue. Is that three points? Like the emojis? Exactly. Exactly, so you had one with multiple things in it. Solid couple of mates over there. Sorry, we're getting angry. Very well played from you there, Jack. These are a bit nicer questions. They're going to get cunty though, don't they? Might be. All right, Stevie, Jack is very hungover. What food is he ordering? And a bonus point, if you get the exact style of food. Do you like a... So this is ordering, he's not going out, because he likes a hungover roast, but he's not going out, so he's staying at home. So he's going to order a pizza.

55:35and he is a barbecue meat feast guy. Wow, that's a bitch out. What is it? It's meat feast, but it wouldn't be barbecue. You love barbecue. Just one point then for pizza. I like it, but not as much as normal pizza. The barbecue base really does, people do get angry about that. I am a knob. I go half and half, barbecue base half, tomato half. Not bad. Because barbecue base is nicer when it's cold. So I'll eat the tomato bit whilst it's hot and when it goes cold later and I don't want to eat the rest of it. I'll eat it cold. It's quite sweet, I find, the barbecue. That's why it's better cold. What's your go-to pizza joint?

56:12Lately, I've switched over to Pizza Hut over Domino's. Never Papa John's.

56:20Unless I'm only going to eat Domino's, where I'm at. If you can eat anywhere. Domino's. I like Bella Italia, genuinely. We've been there a few times. We've got that new all-you-can-eat pizza place in Norwich now as well. What's that called? like moto pizza or something never heard of it I think it works like meat gaff where you have a light on your table go green and they come around and bring it to you yummer yummer different flavours and stuff I'll be there yeah next question busy I fucked it sorry Jack it's alright mate if Stevie was a little tipsy in a night out and got a little brave what shots what shots would he buy the table oh easy easy peasy lemon squeezy not my answer ready I'll say it same time see if you can it right Ready?

57:04Three, two, one. Baby Guinness. Why did you say that? Baby Guinness. Why did you say that? You know how we were going to say it at the same time? If you said it normally, that would have been really good. And in unison. And it's like, baby Guinness. You can VAR that. VAR that. Yeah. That's what we did. That was close. Yeah. Baby Guinness. Ready? Three, two, one. Baby Guinness. Does that take them to four points already? No, I didn't. We are flaying. he's changing the question I'm trying to put the actual points in I think it's four, you're on four I'm on three I think actually because we got the pizza one wrong three, yeah well this to get to four Stevie what team's football fans are Jack's least favourite?

57:54there's a clear winner is that so yeah so he supports West Ham obviously so the worst should be should be Millwall but it's not although he's had a very bad run in with a Millwall fan bad run in with a West Ham fan so I'm between I'm between two I'm between three I could tell you the three yeah no because I'll get a reaction from him I'm going to go do the one you think and then we'll take the other two it's between Liverpool Arsenal and United Ed. I'm gonna go Arsenal. Correct. Is it? Correct. Yeah. Rats. Fucking hell. It was either Arsenal or West Ham.

58:42You should probably cut that. What would yours be? Worst fans? I just don't care. No, I know what you'd pick. Liverpool. Liverpool. Yeah. That's very fair. I'm not gonna say you mind me, but that was very fair. They took Isaac. That's just their general persona. What is something that humans do that really winds Stevie up? Okay, I've got one straight away. I don't think you'll get it, though. You could, but... I think it's on the road. Okay, maybe you will. Don't give him clues! No, I'm going that way, anyway. Yeah, he's already gone towards that. That is the first thing that came to my head. I think it's when a lorry tries to overtake another lorry.

59:23No. I was going to do indicate, and I thought it was too obvious! Fucking hate cunts that don't indicate. Yeah, that was the first thing Just indicate. People don't indicate because they're doing it for others on the road. Yeah, yeah, all the time. They're selfish. Even when you're not turning. It's annoying. Yeah, that's actually worse. That was close. That was close. That was the first thing. Yeah, you should say the first thing that comes to your end. I know, I know. That's some chowdry all over again. So, staying on the theme of sport, and this is to level one. That was about driving just a minute.

59:51Maybe we could drive into a match. Okay, it is. What sport does Jack think he is best at? Give me a minute, because if you say yours, I don't... Well, it's only between two, because they're the only two he plays. But which one... How do I say what he's best at? What he thinks he's best at. Shaggan's not a sport. I know Shaggan's not a sport. You are good at it. What does he think he's best at? What does he think he's best at? So in his... So it's not compared to others, it's just the best sport he is good at. Stop doing a salute. I'm going to go Jack thinks he's best at football correct over darts yeah he's better at football than darts his average darts is like 40 I've seen you do both and I think darts you're better at which isn't a bad thing no I'm better at football he plays in a football league he's not getting into any darts league he plays in a church league don't you Jack I've been that off oh you've been that off don't believe in the old yeah there's a lot of sinners on those pictures I do like the crosses but anyway so yeah I was going to do the number five for Stevie was going to be why did Stevie vote for Brexit but I thought that's too long so we're going to do what would Stevie say is his favourite thing about himself about myself right okay so we are equal right now and this is for the win this is for the win this is a struggle one more question this is a struggle because I don't really like myself yeah you know honestly he hates himself what is the best thing about myself You're never getting this.

1:01:26Because I can't think of anything. You like things about yourself. Best thing about myself. Your favourite thing about yourself. So it doesn't have to be your best thing. Your favourite thing about yourself. Tell me when you got it, and I'll probably get it at the same time. Okay. Got it. Got it? Got it? Yeah. I think he's going to say something along the lines of, I'm fairly good at everything. I was just going to say that I'm kind. Are you into it? Yeah. I thought he'd say I've got a base. anything I kind of do I'm half good at. I'm pretty good at things. Perfect beard would be up there. No?

1:01:59No. That's more like a lot of issues. He kind of complimented you though. Yeah. No he thinks he's kind of it makes him sound a little bit modest. I pick up things well but I never get that good at them. I get I hit a good level like as in good enough and then I'm just can't not after that I'm shit. Yep. Last one for the win. Right for the win. This is big. This is big. Stevie if Jack was to get cancelled again what do you think it would be because of? Modern day though, modern day Canceled again I got it Yeah Very quick What can I actually say? Canceled again I've got it Yeah, go on Too much use of AI Wow No, that isn't what I thought Who's going to cancel me over that?

1:02:53literally everyone is using it. Can you say what you think yours was? I just thought I was going to like, like something. I kind of fucked it up because I thought I'd get cancelled again for the same thing. Like not that I'd do that again, but like they'll, in like a year's time, they'll go, oh, do you remember he did this? My other one would have been. If I ever went on like, I'm the celebrity, get me out of here. I'm getting pulled out. Yeah. Who's going to find the old tweet? They should know before though. My other one would have been booking a guest that people really don't like. Will that be cancelable, I think?

1:03:25Nah. Have you had many controversial guests on? Paddy the Baddy. Wasn't controversial at the time, though, was he? Well, everyone kicked off about it. Oh, really? Anyone else? Is that it? A large group of... Have we had any other controversial ones on? I don't think so. We've had, like, murderers and stuff. Yeah, and people who talk about murderers. Talking of murderers, I think you've got a little case for us, haven't you? to show us what you're all about. Are you doing a little true crime case for us now? We get to sit back and say nothing. That's what people are here to listen to. Hours and hours and hours.

1:03:59They don't want to speak to us. It was more of a revisiting of a case in a full case we're going to do. Yeah, tell us about it. Yeah, we're not expecting a full hour and a half. No, no, no. Just probably about one hour ten would be fine. Oh, okay. Perfect. So a lot of people will remember getting the news alert, I think it was 2023, about a woman that had been arrested for killing her parents, which in itself that was an unusual news alert but the added detail of and then lived with their corpses for four years. Are you familiar with this? I remember the lady when the police came she was weird as well wasn't she?

1:04:31That's when I didn't get the news alert I don't have news on my phone Ben says a lot I think you're the only one I know who has that alert on his phone Sky News Do you have Sky News alert? I don't even have the Sky News app There's lots of sad stuff Yeah That's why you don't want news alerts on they never pop up going oh my god the coolest baby has just done 50 kick-ups. Like, that's never happening, is it? That's a cool baby.

1:04:58The coolest baby has just done 50 kick-ups, man. Oh my God. I don't know why that's the first. Get that purpose. You gotta see this. What makes a baby cool? That would be cool. I would be happy. If you saw a baby do 50 kick-ups, that's newsworthy. I want to know, right, was the baby, because it was the coolest baby in 50 kick-ups. So it's not the kick-ups is making him cool. He's already the cooler thing. He had a tongue-loss on a mohawk. He didn't carry the full story. He was blindfolded. Yeah, a couple of good gups. Yeah, and a mohawk. He's just Alfie in front of Abbey Clancy, if you remember.

1:05:33You heard that. Yeah, so she was trying. Alfie was on holiday, and what's Peter, Abbey, is Abbey Clancy? She was there in the same hotel, and he was nine, and he thought that if he put an England shirt on and keep the ups in front of him. I should tell Peter that he's good. He might get scouted. Do you know what? Do you know what? Yeah, he plays for Fulham now. Just picked a team. So if there's an Indian man that plays for Fulham, that is not a reference I was making because that will come back to... Yeah, woman. Dead parents. Paul baby doing kick-ups. Blindfolded. So this was the case of Virginia McCulloch.

1:06:14Right. Who, from the off, let's say she was experiencing a lot of different mental difficulties difficulties yeah yeah okay cool um so as well as the news alert there was lots of very infamous body cam footage that later emerged about the case which was surrounding her arrest this episode is brought to you by paypal you know how a mom's bag has everything sunscreen snacks a stapler The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step.

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1:07:36wasn't she like the one because i think i found this out when it came up on like x like a video on x and she's like really blase about it or something very blase so straight away and this this the police coordination and planning her eventual arrest was ongoing for a few weeks until they when they finally realized something had happened at the house and the body cam footage of them they were knocking at the door for a while no answer they breached the door go in and very matter of fact, oh yeah, okay, well, my dad's there and there's something else I need to tell you, my mum's upstairs. So the police only knew the dad was gone?

1:08:08The parents had been, concerns had been raised when their GP had not heard from the parents in a number of months and Virginia had been collecting medication on their behalf as well as their pensions, ran their finances into the ground, which is part of the reason why allegedly she come up with a plan to murder both of her parents. and when she was arrested there was kind of a weird eerie moment of silence where then she turned to uh the the police officer wearing the body cam and said cheer up at least you've caught the bad guy fucking hell and she also like had siblings who were trying to contact the family and she was trying to basically keep them wore them away and writing fake cards and birthday cards how long were they fed four years how are the siblings not hmm doesn't the house doesn't doesn't the house wouldn't the house have stunk well she yeah she did wrap up the bodies in the kite i don't think it was um neighbors weren't there wasn't any signs of the neighbors smelling anything or was there this the the really strange part is that she was very i mean part of the four-year period was during lockdown as well so that bought her maybe a bit more time but she was still very active down her street it was not super far away from from where we're basically in the um uh essex not far from Chelmsford and she was very active knocking on neighbors doors checking on everyone ordering takeaways for people that had helped her out it was really odd but she hired someone on her street to do the back garden for her right but would hatch would instruct this woman you're not allowed in the house you have to go around the side of the house and you can tend to the garden that way and apparently anytime the door or the windows were open she could just smell this overwhelming perfume coming out of the uh of the house and anytime she paid her in cash the cash would stink of perfume and because remember there was lockdown so that summer was really hot as well wasn't it yeah so they obviously smell the perfume because she's trying to cover up the smell of the bodies it's like when you go and someone's had a shit and like they put on too much of that spray and you're like you tasted it now I'd rather just a bit a little bit of a whiff of shit not that do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah good on you boy haven't thought about it for decomposing corpses so where I'm not saying the parents are equivalent to that because that's very yeah where no one was thinking that good to make sure that where where did she keep the bodies in the house so there was a downstairs like ground floor office that was by the rear door and that was where she basically the term that was coined was like a man-made mausoleum so her dad was too heavy for her to lift upstairs so she placed the dad in a corner of the downstairs office slash bedroom and then got a load of breeze blocks from b &q delivered to the house and just built essentially a concrete bed over the top of it like a tomb and then the mother so the father was poisoned with well it's an overdose of medication that was put into his alcoholic drinks before bed and she was experimenting with different volumes in the days building up to this and eventually just a huge amount went into his drinks he had several drinks before bed that was him dead and then the quite grisly element is that she tried to do the same to her mum but her mum woke up the following morning just a little bit groggy so she then went into her mom's bedroom upstairs where she could overhear the morning radio going on and she essentially bludgeoned her her mother to death and then sealed her in a wardrobe upstairs fucking hell did she have a did she have a history of i think did she have a criminal record or anything no nothing only only slightly strange noticings in the community and one particular guy and i'm at the time of this coming out I really wanted to, we don't do this sort of thing, but I really wanted to go and interview this neighbour when the case first broke, because we got ahead of the curve a little bit.

1:11:50There wasn't a great deal of information out there, but basically a guy in his early 30s was a personal trainer, lived in the house opposite, and she had a bit of a crush on him by all accounts, and she was posting daily letters through the door. She posted sealed steaks through the door for him. Meat. Uncooked. Because he's a personal trainer, so he fought protein. Oh, wow. That's nice. Also borrowing neighbours curry. Yeah, baking things for neighbours, ordering takeaways to people's houses. She wanted to make herself very much seen as the outstanding, you know, excellent neighbour. So she's almost overdoing it.

1:12:28Absolutely overdoing it. All of it was over money. Like with the perfume, Stevie. Yeah, I mean, the main theory is that in the year she was um mid-30s herself but always lived at home five or six other siblings had flown the nest gone away there were allegations that the the father in particular was was not very kind to virginia during her childhood but people have said that the siblings have siblings have all said that that was bullshit um basically what happened was she was convincing her her parents that she'd got this amazing job and she was a well-paid artist and she did online investment funds and stuff like this and through this time she was working her parents were getting older they gave her access to the bank accounts and so she was were her parents quite rich then they weren't rich but they were set they had a certain amount of life savings their regular pensions coming in and um the father had been an academic like he was a um professor over at anglia ruskin in cambridge oh really so it's all quite close to home yeah and basically over a period of just a couple of years she burnt through hundreds of thousands of pounds of her parents' money, started then trying to live off the parents' pensions.

1:13:38And when the GP started noticing that the parents, and this is over four years, when social services alerted the police and then the police, I don't think they were exactly expecting to find what they found. Yeah, right. But apparently the money was going on online gambling, specifically bingo. It's so weird. Online bingo. Because it's like there are millions of those bingo mums in the country, aren't there? And dads. Yeah. But that is the last thing you would ever expect any of them doing. Why did she not get rid of the bodies? Why are the bodies kept in the house? Why did she not kill her parents and just try and solve her issues?

1:14:16But yeah, why didn't she ditch the body? What? The other option was not kill the parents. Oh. But yeah, why didn't she dispose of the bodies? yeah I thought the same when it came to the gardener and I thought that there probably would have been some of that going on but I think because it's a very not busy street but it was a street it would be hard to get the bodies out she couldn't carry it lift the dad anyway because it's too heavy even after four years that's true I know that's morbid to think of but you would think there'd be less the first thing I did and often do with these cases is do the old Google Street View look at the house and there's a recent I think a 2023 Street View picture and it's all boarded up metal seal over the garage things like that but I mean in theory she had access to their vehicles and she had four years of opportunity to try and get rid and again four years of no the siblings have really received a lot of criticism which for the thing is whenever they would call or write or check in she would mimic her parents voices on the phones send birthday cards pretending to be often off moon yeah moon pick is the way because obviously I couldn't you could tell if your sibling was doing a voice if I called my mom and my sister was putting on my mum's voice, I'd know it's not my mum.

1:15:27And four years of it as well. How often are they having these phone calls? Maybe the siblings, I don't know if it's unfair to say, but maybe they didn't call as much as they claimed to have. Well, it was also lockdown brought her such opportunity because for those years, no one could visit. You're checking on your parents more during lockdown. You drive and see them straight away afterwards. Unless they just had enough faith that their sister was looking after them. What do you think will happen with this house now then? what typically happens in a true crime house when i see i've i've been meaning to do a little video where i'm going to call up some um estate agents to actually ask that question because i don't really know sometimes the house actually does carry on and get sold on and it doesn't seem to really affect much in the value but some houses they if the really heinous things happen within the house then they often get knocked down and people you know might be rebuilt over it or they might just put you know tree or something there but this house in particular still as far as we're aware still standing we had a lot of local people comment on the case saying that they walked by that house all the time it's right on the end of a busy street corner you could walk into town and um yes it's a village called great baddo right yeah it's just a bit of a character on your street and it's like it's the thing we i find with doing true crime especially is it's the people you don't know what's going on closed doors you don't know you know it's some people who you can never expect to be part of anything go on to be the most heinous it's a scary thought but obviously it's very rare but um for her to be able to do that to her mum as well feels like because like obviously neither are good but like poisoning feels like very like not hands-on thing just happening the second it's not worked on her mum i get that she's obviously panicked because the dad's dead she's she has to do something it's just like that's just the first thing would she do like bludgeoning with what there was a well there are different theories of a hammer and also stabbing with a knife but either way it's approaching her from behind it's stabbing her in the back striking from you know it's equally as cowardly but the thing with the poison the dad though because the mom wouldn't know straight away that there could be a heart attack so like it is she could have played it off and she could have tried to get away with that but um but i guess i've made the talk screen or whatever yeah it's yeah it's it's really odd we find in a few cases we've covered where people essentially and usually it's the because peret uh parasite which is the killing of parents is very rare but a double parasite both parents is even rarer you You have the Menendez brothers, which is quite a famous one.

1:17:49And that's a renewed debate whether they did it or didn't do it. But again, it was similar to maintain a certain lifestyle and keep the money coming. That was there. And there were allegations of abuse as well. And I know there's strong opinions surrounding that case, but it was essentially for Virginia's case to maintain this lifestyle of not having to work, having access to limitless money. And no history of anything to suggest the violence. Would you personally be able to live in a house if you knew something like that had happened? like if you got like a like a like a good deal on it that's a tricky one isn't it because i think i'd pray out too much what if you found out afterwards but you only hear like a sentence about it would you then have to research i'd have to know everything yeah i'd have to know everything if you found out the house you're living in now had like really horrific crimes before you got there i'd say how they find out right um making out like it was me um what would I leave well I'm only renting so it's quite easy for me to go I'm alright thanks well I'd at least go knock a couple hundred off yeah so you'd stay if it got you a discount if I'd get a good discount a couple hundred quid off what if I'm a simple man if someone died of natural causes a bit in your bedroom would that be fine fine I would still think that they probably haunt the bedroom you don't believe in ghosts no but I would when I'm on my own at night it's alright me coming on here and I don't believe in it but when I'm there at home I'll remember that Here's the terrifying thing as well is that we only talk about the cases that come to public knowledge and that are even the unsolved ones, but there are things that have happened.

1:19:19There'll be hundreds of homes up and down the country where things like this have happened, but no one was ever caught. Oh yeah, that was four years of it that no one knew. So there's houses right now. Way of missing people. We did Natasha Kempush recently. Yeah, that had an interesting ending in terms of the ownership of the house as well. Yeah, that's true. And yeah, what was the question you said in that episode? It'd be good to ask them in terms of... I worded it atrociously and unfortunately it made the edit. But basically it was this Natasha Kampusch, an incredible woman. She was kept in a cellar by a man who snatched her off the streets as a schoolgirl.

1:19:53And it was several years that she was kept in this cellar and eventually he became more lenient, allowed her upstairs, allowed her into certain rooms, eventually allowed her into the garden and she was hoovering his minivan and he turned his back for one second to answer a phone call and she escaped. Right. She later inherited the house from his estate. We listened to this episode on the way home last week. She just made the decision to fill the basement that she was kept in with concrete and keep the house to prevent it from becoming like a dark tourist attraction. She got criticized for doing that.

1:20:25Why? Because people found it, number one, strange that she owned that house and had the right to own that house. People somehow found that strange. And then secondly, people were kind of questioning her decision to fill the basement when it's absolutely... Yeah, filling the basement is the right thing today. It's about empowerment, isn't it? But the question, Ben. Oh, sorry, yeah. My question was, so basically this cellar was part of his granddad owned the house. And just after World War I, there was already a basement beneath the garage, which was a bomb shelter, which he then modified to have an extra secret compartment chamber in this bomb shelter.

1:21:02Who's this? This is the guy that kidnapped Natasha Campbell. So he already had a house which had a bomb shelter in it. He's then spent a couple of years. he's not gone full fritzel and had a full underground lair you know never go full fritzel never never do words to live by your toes in sure um but he basically he basically made this small sort of seven foot by seven foot extension you know separate chamber and i i think my question was along the lines of again i'm going to word it awfully do people that somehow find out they have secret rooms or basements or unaccessible locations that no other people are aware of are they more prone to do things like this so if jack finds out he's got a basement will he suddenly go you know what i should keep someone in there yeah would it accelerate his put the mind the thought in his head no i don't think it'd put that i think i think they'd already have those thoughts basement or not but then having the basement then makes it more likely to be able to do something that's pretty much exactly how Dan answered it Dan basically said the intent to abduct and hold someone is always there, this just made it even more possible, makes it achievable a nutter might go like oh I've got this urge to take this lady or like maybe like abuse this woman and that's all I'm going to do Jack words swings badly but then when they find out they have this they go, okay, I can now go even further with my fantasies and do this and do that.

1:22:31But it's like me with a mattress, right? You owned a mattress, I thought, oh, fuck that. I didn't want to sleep with a mattress. The ocean was there. But then when I saw it, I went, that could work. Was it a cute mattress? Yeah, it was quite cute. So you're saying the basement could give you... I'm not saying, yeah, I don't have it in me to abduct a woman. But if you had a basement, you might? No. no well that's what you just said the mattress you didn't want a fucking mattress but then when you saw that one you went so you don't want to do anything but if you see a basement you're thinking that could be used for bad things yeah this is like a question we were debating not so I'm saying no I think the person has those feelings regardless Jack would your opinion of the mattress change if someone died of natural courses on it before you shagged it I think even if I knew someone else was sleeping on it I wouldn't have that being that put me up No, but he's not saying the dead body's on it when you're fucking out.

1:23:31Yeah, let's stop talking about that. You brought it up! I know, but to make a point. So how many years she got there? Make a point and stick it in the mattress. So I believe she got sentenced to a minimum term of 36 years. So does that mean guaranteed she'll do that? Guaranteed 36. Because I never know when I'm listening to your pod and then you go, oh, minimum of this, but parole with this and that. I don't know what it means. I know people that have gone to prison and they've done half the time in prison that they got. So her sentence was actually life, but with a minimum term of 36 years. So that essentially means once the 36 years is spent, she will be eligible for parole, but she's still on a life sentence.

1:24:09I think given her crimes, obviously I'm no professional, but they'll analyze her risk to both herself and the public at this point. And I mean, she'll be in her late 70s by that point. Right.

1:24:25Is it a case of you do half of what the number is, though, or not? No, not if it's a minimum, because minimum, you can't half a minimum. Things like good behaviour obviously help with time, but not for that kind of case. And obviously, I think if prisons are over, what's the word? Overpopulated. Overpopulated, overoccupied, then, yeah, some people then they look at people's sentences after that. But someone like her, they're not going to be looking at that. Fair enough. Well, what do you make of that, Stevie? Not ideal, is it? Are you scared? Why would I be scared? Because there's crime out there.

1:24:56There is. Yeah, but it's not my daughter. Huh? What about that? One day you have a daughter. Bring her up. Oh, it's a lovely drink, don't you, love? Yeah. Bang. She's got you. Just never let Isaac make me anything now. Except for proud.

1:25:19Right, lads, before we let you go, because we've had a fun time today, Tom, I think you're coming to bamboozle us or something, aren't you? You rat. Yes, yes, yes. Get your rat out. I don't know. Don't tell him to get his rat out. No, we were talking about that before, weren't we? Yeah, years ago. We've not mentioned that in years. Right, so obviously we come from a podcast associated with the twisted minds and actions of the human race. So I thought it would be very apt of us to teach you guys a little history about torture devices. Okay, okay. I like this. I like this. Yeah, so different civilizations.

1:25:52throughout time, what they did. And I listened to your Grace Neutral episodes, so some things you've heard that are disturbing anyway. So I thought, it's a nice place to talk about disturbing things. Right, I'm all in. I'm all in. I like this. So welcome to a tiptoe through the torture timeline. Nice alliteration. Yeah. Very good. Very good. We're just going to run through. I think what will be fun to do, rather than just us reading stuff out of you, is we'll say what the torture thing is called, and maybe you say what comes to mind, and then we'll just go we'll talk about it have you given the devices these names or are they the actual names no they're legit legit names you could identify them where he gets creative yeah but yeah some of them are very on the nose yeah and some of them are some of them are so inventive okay and it's disturbing but yeah yeah so we'll go through a bunch on this podcast and then what we'll do is we'll do a cheeky part two over on our podcast okay where we'll go through another five if people want to hear any more are we going to be there for that yeah yeah you are how do we get there then we just cut this bit out put it on there boy oh is that what you want to do yeah so we're going to do all 10 now yeah but the other 10 will be okay Jack's learning about the power of editing yeah in real time I thought you were joking but no yeah that's what it is so the first one is as I said some of this is very on the nose yeah and some of them yeah just very simple the first one is called Boiled Alive and it was from the Tudors time and it was 1531 it's roughly when it started do you want to take that one on me I don't think it's what they're saying it is.

1:27:21He just said summer on the nose, and then he said boiled alive. I'm picturing big cauldron, boiled alive, human inside. I think he's given us a clue here, a bit of a red herring. So he said summer on the nose, witches get boils on their nose, right? Boiled alive. Witches were burnt on... Yeah, but I'm saying I think this is about a witch. Notable users of a cauldron. cauldron I already said cauldron it's got to be a hot one I just said boiled alive I'm just going to show you this picture here so it's people in a hot bath not a hot bath, it's over flames we'll give you a bit more background now, so Henry the 8th came up with this, we know he was very into his killing and was rather paranoid as a man and this was born out of his paranoia he thought people were trying to poison him because there was a botched attempt for someone trying to poison a bishop.

1:28:20Virginia, probably. Well, way before a time. So a new law was brought in, basically, where they made boiling alive a punishment, but specifically for poisoners. Oh. Oh, it's like if you rob something, you get your hand chopped off. Poison, boiled alive. That is a deterrent. Yeah, yeah, I'm not robbing anything. I've stole a loaf of bread, one hand gone. I'm not using the other hand to take another life. No, but poison, I meant poison and boiling alive. Oh. That's what we're talking about. So victims were chained up and lowered into a giant cauldron of bubbling water. Oil or tar? Oh, that wouldn't be nice.

1:28:56Give me what, I'd choose tar over the three, though. Oh, no. That's a sticky one. I think that would be the worst one. I think you'd die quicker. I think water, you're just like, ah, stings. Hot bath is better. Tar, you're like. You think if you're in boiling water. Yeah, maybe you do dunk your head. Yeah. Get it in me. Tar. sometimes hauled sometimes they hauled back out to make sure they lasted longer though you dipped in more like a dippy egg you know dipping them in so the tar would be I like dippy eggs now I'm just thinking this is a pleasurable thing but you are the egg I am the egg I'm not the egg am I I'm the dip but you never come back out I'm the soldier but you never come back out I'm ready to go to war sign me up but unlike burning the steak where you'd mercifully pass out from the smoke and this was a full slow cook experience with skin blistering, flesh peeling.

1:29:49Yeah. We were talking about this the other day, weren't we? We were saying you could make crackling at your own skin. Ooh. Yeah, we were. Yeah. In a nice food sense. I was at a beer festival the other day and someone told me about making leather out of fish, fish skin. Oh. Yeah. Wow. The more you know. So an onlooker for the punishment said he roared mighty loud that many of the spectators were sick and appalled, but they abolished boiling alive in 16 years afterwards. so they thought wonder how many they did maybe a completely eradicated poison who knows I reckon I could have boiled you alive in my gammon soup yes it was a deep dish of gammon soup do you want to take this one ok number two also in the Tudor era era also in the Tudor era pressed to death we don't edit those out either you sound a knob thin skin yeah oh sorry you sound great oh yeah thank you so much you just can't sound what was it uh pressed to death pressed to the pressed to death okay i'm picturing with just a finger oh later mate um i'm picturing like a mattress but like a brick tell me more but like a brick mattress a wall no floor and then same one slab above tell me more and it just comes down and presses you and presses you until you just compress the squash yeah like the walls of death in all the old TV shows or movies but downwards like I missed the beast video yeah press to death a room constantly getting smaller which would be my idea of hell not miles away but Ben we'll talk you through it okay so this is a particularly odd one I know that Stevie would sometimes say to Ariana after a gym set up this is a you bit isn't it I love that he's written and you just go on go on try again it said optional after it it was at the end though so I didn't see the optional bit in bold you're kind of blind but you're not that blind I know Stevie would sometimes say to Ariana after a gym session that he would literally press to death in the old gym it wasn't worth it was it It would be if you didn't murder it.

1:32:07Okay, well, I'm going to do it. I don't know. Yeah, it's Ariane. So this was a punishment. I thought you read it. Come on, Ben, get it right. Yeah, Jesus Christ. It's respectful. Oh, well, okay. So this was a punishment dished out to people who didn't offer a plea in court. So in the Tudor Times, if someone didn't say they were guilty or not guilty, the trial wasn't able to proceed. The reason behind people... You're just always going to say one then if you know that's what's going to happen, if not. But you can say you're not guilty and be found guilty. But that's not if you don't offer a plea.

1:32:39Yeah, but there's reasons behind it. Let him continue. There's reasons behind it. Sorry. The reason behind people not entering a plea was if they were convicted, their property would be confiscated by the Crown. If they simply didn't say a plea, their estates would be passed on to their heirs. So to put it very simply, people would choose this horrific way of dying in order to protect their family's inheritance. Oh. Which is oddly noble, Tom notes. Yes. So the method here, I mean, you're very much in the right ballpark, is that they put you down and they lie and they slap a board on top of you.

1:33:18And they keep piling stones and iron on top of this board, which is on top of you, until you either gave in or suffocated. It was basically a slow motion suffocation and bone crushing ordeal. Sometimes this would drag out for a number of hours, all to prove that silence definitely wasn't golden. Nice. Nice, well done. Some victims of this would even bite off their tongues to try and speed up the process of death. What, do you die if you bite your tongue off? Maybe drown your own blood. Choke on your own tongue. Choke it. Yeah, choke it down, yeah. Yeah, protein. Well, that one's horrific. Yeah, okay.

1:33:56I think the version I said, I think you'd die way quicker. So just keep, it's like buckarooing it, that one. It's constantly putting things on top. Would you rather the first one or the second one? Would you rather be boiled or pressed? That's a great question. You were quite happy with the tar, though, so I think you're... I think I'll take the tar. Get that tar in. I think... Oh, they're both... I don't know which one's quicker. I think... That one says hours. I think you'd die quicker being boiled. They were dipping you, weren't they? Yeah. I think I'd go pressed, because I don't like the idea of skin burning.

1:34:25Yeah, I think I'd be pressed, because you might just suffocate. I don't like being in a confined space. You're getting basically slowly killed either way. Yeah. What if you hold your breath? I feel like I'm not on this question. Pass out. It's an option. It's an option. Yeah, I'm going to go pressed. Pressed. Cool. Good one. Good one. All right, next one is, yeah, this one is a very weird one. It's Judas, it's number three. It's Judas' Cradle or Judas' Cradle. Ah, so it's like Newton's Cradle where the balls hit you. Bang, bang. You know, the gravity shit. I've been into that club. But what? I've been into that club.

1:34:58But you're in the middle and they drop two ball bearings that come and smash you in each side of each head. I think you'll probably say the same thing, won't you? Bull Baron's famous. Judas is the bad fella from the Bible, isn't he? Yeah, he's, yep. I don't know much about this. He's in part two, yeah. I don't know. A cradle is a thing that holds you. So I'm thinking you're in a, like a metal casket of some sort that maybe has spikes that come and heal you. Ooh, that is, that is, that is a form of torture, but it's not this one. so this one is people say it's been exaggerated or misinterpreted over time but I thought it'd be worth mentioning because it's just very weird.

1:35:40It's believed to be used to basically get confessions from people. So picture this. A Judas Gretel was a wooden or metal pyramid shape mounted under a seat. So imagine Grandad was telling us about this one Was he? Yeah. No I think he actually was. No keep going because I don't recognise this They're mounted on a seat, legs apart Like that, and then they're pulled over the... They're slowly lowered onto it. Yeah. And then basically... Up the arse. Or... Not up the arse. Yeah, actually, yes, it is, basically. So it's slowly lowered into whichever hole it entered. So, what was it, girls? Like a pyramid up the arse.

1:36:17Yeah, basically. What was it, girls? It could be two... There's different holes, Jack. So it would slowly go in there, and it would tear at the person that was going in. Right. And then people would later go on to die of sceptical shock or death by a pain. I'd be embarrassing to come when you're being killed though. Oh yeah. It would be, yeah. It would be. I mean, the thing about that one, I don't really get it because if you're slowly just lowered and that's just weight on you. Well, this picture here, look, there's little bags of weight attached to the ankles. What, so... Basically that. Oh, it's that.

1:36:45So then you're sort of going down. What if it missed? What if you're sort of like being lowered? Back up, Steve. Yeah, and your arse just misses it. Like in the gooch. Oh. Oh, that would hurt more. Yeah, that would. That'd be worse. Miss me, miss me.

1:37:03I want that one I'd go I'll talk I'll talk they left me no I won't

1:37:14I don't know why that is that sounds gay even though that wooden thing is not male I guess it's to do with the arse but I was trying to work it out yeah I think if it was A good way of defending yourself with that probably would just be like, do a really horrible shit when you're happening to you. And they're like, oh, I have to clean up now. Lube, going easier. Do you want to do the next one? So number four, choke pear. I'll do the top line because you murder it. There's a pear. They make you do the chubby bunny challenge, but with pears. You try and fit them all in your mouth and you're going to choke them on.

1:37:53I think it's probably a poisonous pear that they put a little Death Star in. Little Death Star? That's all it from start. Little. Yeah. There you go. Well, again, this is, people dispute whether this is a thing, but after you guys had Zach Wilson on, the exotic fruit expert, I thought this would be right up your street. Okay. It also goes by the name of the Pear of Anguish. I can't imagine anymore. That's scary. No, that just sounds not nice. The first time this was ever mentioned is in the 17th century in France. The choke pair was a pear-shaped metal device with expanding leaves, which allegedly cranked open inside a victim's mouth or body in grotesque, injury-causing manners.

1:38:38Start up the arse again. You've got the option. Well, maybe you have the option. It's a Tuesday, yeah? There's actually, depending on your crime, depends where they put it. Oh, I love that. We'll go over that, yeah. Yeah, I'm intrigued. Well, what crime would get what? Well, we'll go for it. Oh, okay, cool. So essentially it's a pair within a metal leaves that gradually open. Yeah, right. Just like that. Oh, I've seen that, fucker. Yeah. Have you seen that? Yeah. I've actually seen that in a museum. Yeah, there's some in the museums, but some people believe they were just there as a kind of more fun device which wasn't used.

1:39:11It was more just the kind of mystery of it. Like a kid's toy. I don't know if it's a kid's toy. I wouldn't give a kid that. Or like a sex toy. I don't want to put those two things too closely. Carry on, man. So as the leaves would gradually expand wider and wider, it would gradually mutilate the victim. It has been said to have been inserted in different places for different reasons, as Tom said. So should we start? Would you like to start with in the mouth? We'll start in the mouth or we'll go in the anus or vagina, guys? Stevie would probably pick anus. I don't mind in the mouth. Come on, then.

1:39:43Let's start in the mouth. So you would receive a punishment like this to the mouth, supposedly if you were a blasphemer, a liar, or even a talkative prisoner, like a chatty... Chatty prisoner, yeah, which is harsh. Fucking hell. Fucking hell. Get in the truck back. So when they put this device in your mouth, the gradual expansion would shatter your teeth, lodge them into your gums, it would break jaws, and it would also rip open your throat. Fucking hell. Just for being a bit chatty. Yeah. I might be going ass here. Tell me about that. Tell me about it. So very similar manner, but this would be used on people that were accused sodomites, witches or women accused of sexual crimes.

1:40:27Okay. Okay. So why would they get the vagina one? Witches. No, that was the arse one. Anus slash vagina. Oh, right. I thought vagina had a separate one. Yeah, I thought vagina was the separate one. There is a separate hole, yeah, but... No, not... Yeah, yeah. I meant different punishment. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Different reason. Reason. So what was the arse one? Arse for witches, women accused of sexual crimes, accused of sodomites. So would you want the pear in your mouth or your bum? Doesn't say what it does to the bum.

1:41:03Where's the hand, boy? We got a graphic. Yeah, so just imagine lots of ripping, tearing, perhaps your pelvis is going to be partly shattered. I've just eaten beetroot. All over the floor. I think I'd go for bum. Yeah? Yeah. Because my jaw snapping is going to hurt more than my arse snapping. And you paid a lot for that jaw. Yeah. You just look like you're used to. Imagine that just halfway finish. I know you're right. No. It's hip to be.

1:41:37Yeah, I'd have out the arse. What's the next one? This one is incredibly inventive. Like I said, I mean, I'm not big enough. up. Yeah. It's called... Oh, yeah. If it's there, don't slag it off. Yeah. It's called scathism. Scaffism. Scaffism. Scaffism. Its origin is ancient Persia, first and second century. And the word comes from... I'll give you what the mean of the word is. It's from the Greek word scaph, which means boat. Boat. I think you are lowered from a boat. Starboard side. I just wanted to say you knew a word to the boats. Lowered from a boat and fish eat on you as you trawl beneath it.

1:42:23I think tides to the front of a boat and the boat's at sail and all the waves and everything slowly suffocate you and hurt you throughout the day. You guys have a future in torture. No, it's not that. But both of those are, I think, like legitimate. There's one where you put them underneath, basically, and they get hit by all the kind of like, Barnacles and scrimmage. Which is horrible. But now this one is being labelled one of the cruelest torture devices in history. So it's basically death by being eaten alive, literally. So you put someone, you cover them. Instead of a grand ship, imagine like a little wooden paddling boat.

1:43:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a little small boat. So basically they put the person in this boat, they cover them in honey and force them to drink a mixture of milk and honey to develop diarrhoea. they then push them into the river or the lake and basically uncloth them they cover them in the milk and honey as well and then slowly they get eaten by insects and they feast on them and what happens is they don't just leave them to starve they'll keep feeding them this stuff until they have to continue just laying in their own mess getting eaten alive by bugs until they eventually die that's horrific yeah that is also the ending of one of the most recent Inside Number 9 episodes is it?

1:43:36in the bath milk honey oh yeah it is yeah I didn't make that connection yeah grim yeah so that's a that is a horrible little way to go but very inventive so out of these five I think that would be my least favourite yeah that's the longest one yeah and I think the pair up the arse I think is the pair up the arse killing me though it's not killing me I think you're dying after it am I dying pulling out like a kidney yeah maybe yeah I think the pair up the arse is probably my preferred of the five I wouldn't want any of them No, yeah, obviously they're torturers, aren't they, Stevie? So that'd be weird.

1:44:10Yeah, the crimes you've done, Stevie, you're going to have to be punished. I'll take Judas. Do you hear that one? No, actually, I don't know. What is that one again? The one lowered on the spike. You just want whatever one's quickest, don't you, really? All right, Tar. I'm going back. Yeah, a survivable one would maybe be the pair to the jaw, though. Although it sounds awful. Yeah, I just want one of the live-up. You've got Stranger Things, one of those. I've lived with a messed up jaw before us. Horrible. Horrible. Give me the tar and the insects. I think the first one probably is the quickest.

1:44:40Or maybe the press to death. Yeah. And we'll leave it there then, shall we? And if people want more of those, we'll be doing them over on something you're doing. Yes, over on our page, I Could Murder a Podcast, we'll do the other five through them over on ours. Love it. Boy, it's been a pleasure.

1:44:59I don't know. Why did you just lean back like that? I don't know what else you had to say. I was just going to say I'm loving the series. Thanks so much. I actually get sad when it finishes so I don't know what to bloody do with myself now it's my go to pod we were told to say as well that we're really pushing on for the road to 100 ,000 subs and if we get that we'll be doing a live show yes I've heard about this and we'll be there you'll be there not doing any throwing eggs into one of those clangers but yeah so we're really pushing for that at the moment but yeah no and I want to say because last time we've been on a couple of times been on loads of your listeners and viewers have come over and they've said that they discovered us from you guys so I want to say a big shout out and thank you to you guys for that before and thanks for having us on pleasure there we go this has been Jackmates Happy Hour Podcast with me Jackmates Stevie White Benjamin Carter and Tom Norris go check out their podcast if you like true crime and all that good stuff and we will see you in a few days didn't quite get you like that I'm fucking jumping yeah I've seen the clip I need a piss right now right why'd you do that trying to make them it's true crime so I was trying to be scary see you for Halloween next week

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