622 - MARK CLATTENBURG - Refereeing Secrets Spilled By England’s Most Elite Referee!

39:09You just start going. But one of the most bizarre I have had with me fitness and it was, um, it was, I was selected to referee in the FIFA under 20 world cup in Columbia, right? And Bogota. And if you've ever beat a Bogota, it's a surreal place. So you're on, you'd be on the flight going in, you're on the, watching the moving map 6 ,000 feet. You hit the runway and you're like sick. You realize how high you actually are in Bogota for the altitude. Oh fuck. So you're like sick over 6 ,000 feet up. Yeah. So imagine the air is really thin. So I remember the first day we met up, we did a little, and I mean a trot, like a four-minute trot, one-minute recovery, four-minute trot just to get your legs going.

39:52I've never felt so fucked in my life. I couldn't, like the air, I'm thinking, geez, I feel so unfit. Certainly the flight hasn't took that much of us, and it was just the altitude. So I refereed in Bogota Stadium, one of the first games, and there was another game following us afterwards. so there was two games in the stadium with an hour apart. And I'll never forget, I did a sprint in the first two minutes. After that, I couldn't run. I could not run. It was just brutal. And I come off and I remember lying on the floor, just absolutely wasted. Wow. And I remember this New Zealand referee came in.

40:30He was refereeing the setting. And he looked at us and he went, I never thought you were that unfit. And I went, good luck. Yeah. I saw him after the game he didn't even make one sprint it was brutal I've never felt conditions like it we just don't realise as viewers at home do we even what the players what the fucking players are going through but that's why teams don't like I think it was Bolivia for example they have to play some World Cup qualifiers away because you couldn't climatise so imagine you're playing that was so unfair some teams use it as an advantage like Mexico City is another example where it's difficult with altitude.

41:08So if you're going in as a team, you've got to climatize within a few days. It must be so hard. It's always an advantage to the home team, isn't it? Yeah. Like I remember working for ESPN and we got some coverage to do some US games and the national team are playing and they could choose their venues and they were playing Mexico as a massive game. Title decided on the play. I think it was in Columbus. Like why choose Columbus? Yeah. Nothing against Columbus. Yeah. But why when there's New York, Vegas and you think, yeah, I can go to... and they chose it because it was minus 10 and it was all to affect the mexican team fucking because they they don't like the cold conditions you know what i mean so it was like all of it's psychological it's crazy isn't it i remember the world cup where england were in when we had to play in like manouse was it in manouse yeah and it was just like it must be so fucking hard i couldn't even walk around there no yeah that's people people think from the outside god that looks that why why they're not running around or why yeah sometimes the conditions are even temperatures you know when it's red hot I refereed in Saudi when it's red hot horrible it's not easy going that game where you said that you made one sprint and then you couldn't run if we watched that back do you reckon we'd be able to pick up on that did you do a good well yeah because I'm on the halfway line giving it the old it was like I'm trying to get there what was funny right you did the old refereeing trick so if you weren't that fit and I've seen some referees do it and I was doing it in this game so you'd so it would be a decision to make and by the time everybody's looked around I'm still running into the decision do you know what I mean?

42:38So I'm probably on the halfway line but by the time everybody's asking for a decision I'll probably wait for five seconds and then I'll give it. Right, make it look like you're thinking but really you're catching up. I'm close, I'm close. What's the hardest thing about being a professional referee at the top, top level? Now? Yeah. Oh, the social media side. Is it? Oh, the scrutiny's horrific. It's like, I'll tell you a story when I was a ref in the early days it was brilliant because all you did you had a newspaper and everybody read the newspapers on a Sunday morning so yeah I would get the newspaper on a Sunday morning I used to love the sun only because they used to give you a mark and I used to hate getting a seven Right or an eight Yeah I loved a six or a nine six was always good because I turned the paper upside down so it looked like a nine it's always got a nine I loved a nine and a six it's a nine and a six but then now it's gone so the opposite way it's brutal and I mean it's some of the stuff i even get now is ridiculous and even lockdown i'd laugh about lockdown how success for lockdown was for you guys yeah for our project lockdown was horrific for me right i'd been finished 2017 lockdown was what 2021 yeah i'd left china because i was in china yeah um i had a contract in china so i had to end my contract because china had gone through so many restrictions and then i'm thinking to myself oh this is great this i'm nobody's abusing us on social media and then Sky didn't have any games to cover.

43:59So they were showing reruns of games and I started getting abuse again from all the old games. I'm thinking, oh my word. From games that have already gone that don't matter now. Yeah, yeah. It was brutal and I'm like, there's some of the stuff that gets written. Right. But like now, what I've found about the world now is referees can't make decisions now. It's not final anymore. So many people have got opinions where years ago, the referee's decision was final, tough. now they've got no really no authority anymore um and i think that that's where in all walks of life and i just think now nobody wants anybody's opinion and it's sad because i listen to everybody's opinion yeah and i you know sometimes people have got valid points or what i think is valid you learn about the world but there's some of the nobody wants to hear like the amount of abuse i get referees shouldn't i shouldn't be able to speak or shouldn't be heard i'm like hold on And I've been on the pitch that people would only dream of.

44:56And I've been up with some amazing players. I've had some amazing relationships on the pitch. I've had some laughs, you know. And I'm not allowed to be heard. I'm not allowed to speak. And, you know, people, the abuse that you take is just really ridiculous. We live in a world now where it's like if someone has a different opinion to you, then they're bad. That's not the case at all. I like hearing people contrast their opinions. But I haven't got a problem. I don't think we've got, I haven't got a problem with anybody saying, Mark, I don't like your podcast or Mark, I don't like you on gladiators.

45:26I think it's stupid or I haven't got a problem with that. That's an opinion. Yeah. But the abuse, when I start talking about your family or what you are as a person and it's just so personal. You think, why are you getting personal about it? I like your opinion that I might not be a good ref on gladiators. A lot of people might have that idea or perception of his, but don't then be personal about it. Cause you don't know his. Yeah. You don't know me as a person. there's only me really close friends that know who I am nobody else knows who I am we were talking about this on the way here weren't we like people sort of online people sort of analyse mine and Stevie like oh they're like this or they're like that all you know is two hours a week or three hours a week that we're saying and we even before like when you were refereeing we know so little about referees like so little but it's so quick to go on Twitter and say X, Y and Z because we weren't allowed to speak and now we do speak nobody wants to hear you right it's like shut up my opinion as a football fan is more important than you as a referee yeah but who are these people saying it because I can tell you now when I was writing your interview the questions were flowing off me I had so much sometimes with some guests in the past I've struggled to think what can I actually ask these but with you I wanted to pick your brain and hear you yeah because there's so many interesting so many interesting stories and how like how your life's changed from being from a council estate not that it was it was brutal it was tough it wasn't easy but you know sometimes you had to survive and my family didn't have much money and to achieve from there to there and have so many ups and downs and to fight a lot of restrictions to reach that very top you must be proud of yourself it's incredible and then when people that's when people like when they really get abusive then you just say you know what mate fucking hell if you've done something better in your life I'll put my hat off to you yeah but the people who people who are successful they don't they're not going to be the kind of people that will throw stones at someone else because they're worried about their own lane and their own life 100 100 like you know i always say to people the most successful people and that's what i always did as a referee people there was so much noise from the outside and other referees were worried about other referees performances especially in tournaments because they want you to fail of course because they want the final of course right and they're obsessed there's an obsession yeah me i didn't care no i just wanted a referee that game do it the best i can and it means if i do well i get another game if i get another game and that's how i always fell yeah but unfortunately you couldn't be perfect but that's why you made it to the top though that's why you you're you refed champions league finals and euro finals and stuff yeah but i was also people didn't see everybody used to see me and the media used to have a perception of me because i wouldn't speak to them right and that's right now i've learned a big lesson i wish i had interacted a bit more yeah me as a person yeah because people only saw me as like an actor on the pitch like a Coronation Street actor and everybody has an actor and a person outside of that being an actor and refereeing's a bit like that yeah you were the panto villain weren't you 100 % there was no one yeah but there's a real person behind that sort of mask of yeah and a lot of players used to say I was the one that they could relate to yeah right and that meant a lot to me but people outside would go oh he's too chummy with players no I wasn't chummy because if they wanted a red card I would give them it's like you can't win then no matter what you do you're going to get the criticism When you first sort of got to the Premier League and stuff, a lot of the media criticism was that you were a celebrity referee.

48:51That's what they used to say. Yeah, because I did some stupid things. Right. I went on. Do you agree with some of the criticism, do you? 100 % because I'm old now. I'm 50 years old. Right. When I'm 25-year-old, trusted into the world, you're like, oh, I'll buy a Porsche. Yeah, but any 25-year-old's going to do that. Yeah, I know. But players can do whatever they want. They can go and buy a Lamborghini tomorrow and nobody bats an eyelid. The under-21s are doing that now. Yeah. but I think it goes back to this referees have got no stature in the world I think the world puts them down so much and I think we've got such a negativity about it and even though it's a full time job and a real like profession where the detail that goes into it yeah people don't really want to know and you know if I bought a car I shouldn't have it if I bought a nice outfit from I shouldn't have it you've worked for it the same way everyone else but it's not that that's not how people perceive that you shouldn't as a referee you should be on the lowest of the law but the influence that you have in a game and my the way I used to want to referee football matches I used to want to entertain right I know I couldn't because I couldn't pass the ball and score so what does that mean then what does that mean how can a referee to keep the game flowing right and to make it the best it can be okay I could kill a game by whistling every bit of contact technically under the laws of the game I'm right nobody can deny it but you've got to have an art when to try and play the advantage keep the game flowing and one of the best feelings in the world is when you play an advantage and the score it's an incredible feeling because you get players come up and good players honest players will come and go that's brilliant because you've made a goal haven't you it's a great feeling and the art of it was wanting to play Crystal Palace fans listening to this would say you didn't do that in the FA Cup final that's regrets of course I'm in an FA Cup final first few minutes I want to get a feeling people don't understand what it was like are you referring to a mistake here yeah it was a mistake what happened so Johnny Evans brings down Connor Wickham right so it was Man United Crystal Palace 2016 Cup final is this where Lingard scored the winner is it and Pardew was dancing yeah so that was that game so first few minutes there's a clear foul on the touchline right and a blows yeah bread and butter yeah so but then Connor Wickham gets up second later whistle's already gone yeah he cuts in players stop goalkeeper half stops as well and there's hardly anything about it but he scores but the whistle had already gone three times and Crystal Palace still blame that me for not playing that advantage however I caution Johnny Evans Johnny Evans gets sent off later on in the game when it was 1-1 but that's why football fans only care and they're obsessed because I've had going back to what I said about Crystal Palace they hadn't had a win in 13 other matches I'm the one that I'm the villain so whatever I did I couldn't win but it was a what's weird and people don't understand when you go out of Wembley your legs you can't feel your legs you're shitting yourself really yeah even the refs it's pressure isn't it players say the same thing they can't run it's like you train hard all week and you're like I can't feel my legs and you're going in and you want to like it's a bit like a player wants to get on the ball early as a ref you want to get that not the whistle out but you're like you want to get into the game you want to get a feeling because you know it's a big occasion you've had the national anthem you know it's traditional people are watching it open down the country and I just blew my whistle.

52:08It's a foul. That whole situation is so specific though because if you blew that whistle and he didn't get up and carry on and he just played to the whistle, no one would have ever thought of that moment again. But it's because he's carried on playing past three whistles. They've seen a goal that he might not have scored if the keeper was playing and defenders were still... There's so many things. People don't understand how upset I am as an individual because I love to play advantage. So from not having that moment when I had that chance to try it, upset it. And it plays around in your mind because you think, Mark, why could I not have done it?

52:40And it just goes back to early in the game in a cup final, just wanted to get a decision. And I didn't look at the bigger picture. And people still destroy us now for not playing it. I don't know what my question is here, but I know kind of what I mean. I'll give you the answer if you want. Does it take, it must take sort of bottles. So like say it's a FA Cup final or Euro final. in the 90th minute someone goes for a challenge in the box are referees do you think referees are more likely to bottle it because of the occasion and the fact it's 90th minute or does it not matter whether it's first minute 90th minute no the actual bigger the occasion the more you want to get the decision right because you don't want to be remembered you can be probably be forgotten if it's in a league game between two Premier League sides as long as it's not like a super high profile game.

53:34It'll be a storm in a teacup in a week, it'll be gone, won't it? But in a Champions League final, when I look back, I would love to watch the game again. I haven't got a replay of the game. I wish I had. Why have you not watched it back? Because I've just never, never been able to see it back. And you know what? I can't remember much of the game. All I cared about was kicking off and finishing the game. Obsessed about just wanting to get through the game. Portugal France? No, this was Real Madrid Atletico. Oh, the Champions League final. Sorry, right. What was the score in that? 1-1, went to penalties.

54:03Right. Do you feel you had a good game then? People said I did. Yeah. But I'm a perfectionist, so there's things in the game which I wish I'd done differently. But overall, the way the battle was and two difficult sides, you're never going to win when you're refereeing the Madrid derby. It was brutal. But I came away, hopefully people think, and the game was played out. I wasn't the referee's influence in the game. I've tried to not influence it by timing when the first caution was, trying to put out battles on the pitch, play acting, and all of these are going on. All the football fans see what they see on TV, but there's lots of fires on that pitch you want to put out, you know?

54:47Yeah. God, it must be incredible, eh? When I've run the line a couple of times on a Saturday. Yeah, same level then. No, this is what I mean. I'm panicking because I'm trying to pay attention to if someone's offside, but I'm also trying to see here if who kicks the ball off for a throw in. Yeah. and you're in the centre of all of it, seeing all this happen around you. I don't understand how it's even possible to see everything. You can't, it's impossible. But everyone's watching it from a spider cam, and they go, well, that just happens. Everything's in slow motion now, Ultra HD. Yeah. People used to say to me, I couldn't, I used to make this laugh, you see people in real life, and you know what they say to you?

55:22God, you look fatter on TV. And it's because I've got widescreen TVs. You know what I mean? It's like, because you're seeing bigger, when I first started I was in a portable black white TV but like now things are like high definition all of the like super slow motions and stuff referees haven't got their mangles and that's why I know why VR was brought in it's just confusing what VR does now but I can see why VR and technology was brought in because referees needed help because it was incredible some of the like but a lot of it refereeing at the highest level was on feeling and a lot of it was experience and you're trying to the best referees are the ones that could see things happening before they happened.

56:01Right, right. Which is a bizarre thing to say. I know what you mean though. You had to work out what was going to happen next. Normally it would happen, but so you pre-range what used to happen to the referees who were at least experienced, something would happen and it would be like, oh, what happened there? Yeah, yeah. Where I think the best referees are the ones that could see it happening before it happened. Is there some things, like some big contentious decisions that have happened? You have to go by the letter of the law, don't you? but the fans we don't know the letter of the law we don't know what you should do in every outcome we know what studs up and knee high and stuff like that is but like is there sometimes where you know you've made the correct decision by the letter of the law but because the fans don't understand it to that degree they think it's the wrong decision yeah yeah but you've also got interpretations of the law right so what an interpretation of a handball was more strict or punished in UEFA and FIFA matches yeah than it was in the Premier League right it bounce up and hits the hand So the law can be written in a way, but the interpretation is slightly different.

57:02Offside, they're still debating Van Dyke's goal against Manchester City, Liverpool. You know, did Andy Robertson duck down? Did that distract Donnarumma? All of this. In the law, you can actually make a case that it's offside. Some people say it's onside because the game, Donnarumma couldn't save it. So there's all of these interpretations, and that's what creates the debate. that's what creates what football's so great at because other sports is quite factual cricket if you watch cricket it's factual if you watch rugby league it's factual rugby union it's quite factual the odd foul play is subjective but a lot of the rules are factual football isn't football is the opinion of the referee but unfortunately the opinion of the referee means nothing I only remember one bad referee decision as a fan it might have been mine that weren't yours I remember watching it, and I remember it because the referee, and I'll tell you who the referee was in a minute, but the referee went to the monitor and watched it about 20 times, and I was like, there's no way you'll give this red card.

58:06I'm a West Ham fan, and it was Mike Dean sending off Thomas Suchek. I don't know if you remember it. I think it was against Neil Mopai, I think, right? Everton or Brighton? I think it was Brighton. No, Everton. I think it was Everton. and Suchek, the ball's like out of play or something or coming in from a free kick and Suchek's moving his arm like this to get into a position. I remember it. Yeah, you remember it. Yeah, Mopi's there and it hits him and he goes down. And he play-ax a bit. Play-ax, but then I think he gets up and kind of realises he's being a bit of a knob because he sort of laughs, pats him on the back sort of thing.

58:43But Mike Dean went and sent him off. But then a couple of days later it came out he was getting death threats and shit like that which is just so stupid. It pissed me off, of course it did. I'm a West Ham fan. but you need to be a weird kind of person. Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a Newcastle fan. Yeah. And sometimes as a fan, you've got to have limits and always you're upset about decisions. I'm upset about decisions. Yeah. I'm still upset when in Paris Saint-Germain two years ago, when Liverpool meant was handball. Yeah. And I'm still upset. Yeah. But if I say that referee again, I would still speak to him because I know him really well.

59:20and you've got to know your limits yeah you might not disagree i might disagree with it nothing's personal but i know where to draw the line yeah of course i think there's a lot of people don't know where to draw the line because nobody should really receive death threats for anything they do you know you might have a rant and rave and say you know what that decision was shite yeah but not to take it to a level where and i've heard referees getting things like you know threatened and the family's been threatened yeah that's what happened to mike with that with that yeah and like you know like i've had i've had people threatening us on social media yeah and i've had people wanting to do all sorts to us and you know what when you see these when you see people actually not the people that abuse you but the ones probably are abusing to the mates when they see you do your personal like they're like lappy dogs i'm sorry can i have a picture you know what i mean it's like they're just because it's like they realize you're actually a human beat yeah yeah not like a bloody robot yeah like just like them you know a lot of these like decisions as well it's also fan bias so like you might have made a decision potentially wrong but you'll see one side of fans being like like you're going okay it definitely wasn't a red card i guaranteed i'll still be everton fans going that was wasn't it because they can't get out of their own bias yeah yeah because it's you you're a supporter of your team yeah you know i mean and If you win, you're happy.

1:00:40It doesn't matter what the referee did. Right. But if you lose, and probably sometimes we'll all do it, we never want to blame the real reason of the blame. Coaches do it. They deflect the issue. And the easiest person to blame is the referee. Yeah. Because he doesn't speak. You never slack players off. You know, you never, when a player misses an open goal or a tap-in, he's forgotten about. Yeah. You win or you draw. nobody ever like and then he might the following week for your team he might score two goals he's forgotten about you know what I mean it's like a circle and if you if you give a decision for our team we don't think anything of it no but if you give it against then you're a C-U-N-T whatever yeah yeah like I've refereed West Ham millions of times yeah not millions of times but quite a bit of times I've refereed them a lot of the all-ground which I have thought was always special I loved up the top the chicken run yeah I remember one time the observer said to me he said Mark you're not getting wide enough I said I'm not going over there any chance am I going over there but I remember one special game and it was a I don't know if you remember it it was it was typical I'm in because I'm from north I left I left the northeast and it was snowing and I had a lot of snow at that point so I'm driving down the A1 and I get to the M25 because we were meeting up at Dartford there was a hotel just on the other side of the bridge so I had to go across the bridge hotel and then we'd get like people carry it into the stadium it was a quarter final of the cup against Manchester United okay yeah Averin Grant was the coach right and I get to the M25 and there was a sprinkle of snow where London's at a standstill if you get a sprinkle of snow M25 was carnage I get across the bridge nobody could come to their hotel because nobody would get up the hill and I got a phone call Mark go straight to the ground I'm thinking I'm at Dartford now no no get straight to the stadium none of the cars can pick you up everybody's going to the stadium and one of the assistants couldn't make it so I had to get a reserve in from a local area and he wasn't even at the level of the highest level.

1:02:38He was like down. Yeah, yeah. But I had to make him a part of my team because we had to play this game, you know. We couldn't call it off. The police didn't want to call it off so we're kicks off and it was one of them and I remember Johnny Spector scored. Oh, yeah. He scored and the poor assistant didn't have a clue and all my instincts kicked in. I'm thinking, I'm sure that got flicked on and I said, I went across to him, I said, because we didn't have VAR, did you know Johnny Spector, the ball got touched on by one of them players and is johnny speck doing an officer i don't know he said I says, are you kidding?

1:03:10What? So I just went with my instinct. I went, it's offside, offside. And Averin Grant's going off it. Like, because it's a chance to go 1-0 up against Manchester United. And he's going off it. So it goes across fourth officials saying, Mark, Mark, you need to either warn him or send him off. It's getting so bad. So I went across and I went, Averin, look, I've made a decision. My decision. I've made a call. And he went, okay, Mark, okay, I trust you. I trust you. five minutes later he's smiling he's like because he knows I've got it right somebody must have told him but West Ham went and went I think won it on the win three or four nil it was one of them nights and Spector actually did score two he did score two I remember it and I remember it was funny a little story so what gets in the dressing room afterwards typical me because everybody used to think I was an arse whatever this poor assistant you know he's come from nowhere like he's probably been in his house and he's now thrusted into this quarter final of the bloody Carabao in Klattenberg's team as well yeah yeah so the assessor comes in and goes yeah that decision was an absolute brilliant decision by the assistant I didn't have that heart to tell him he didn't give his fuck off so I could more appraise do you know what I mean I was like yeah it was a great decision because for me it meant nothing I was getting nothing out of it so I was like yeah it was a great decision I was like pity you didn't hear the comms he didn't have a fucking clue he might be doing alright now though all thanks to you he turned out to be Mike Dean no definitely not are you friends with other refs then are refs allowed to be friends to have a rest you're not my closest friend when I was a ref was Phil Dowd okay yeah so we were like roommates was he up your way Stoke Stoke right so he was he was probably the closest of being a Geordie that didn't live in Newcastle he was like such a good laugh me and him were like roommates and he made me like settle I remember when the season I got promoted to Premier League I was fourth official at Bolton okay he was a referee right and then what they did was on the the following week i'm reffing and he was my fourth official so they kept were like because he he trusted me i trusted him yeah right um and he was good um but then what what happens is over time there's a lot of jealousy in the groups is that right yeah people don't want to like you go to major tournaments and there's always like the infighting and things and then when you leave the group that's it because if what what it's weird is that the refereeing world thinks everybody's against them when they're not really against them like i might speak out about refereeing but it's actually sometimes healthy yeah um or i might not disagree i might disagree with the decision and they'll say wait no it's not and like i'm like yeah like you know if i always find especially with the refereeing now is if they make a decision and it's wrong or you most people are saying it's wrong they'll always make a justification because they've made it it's when it's the opposite way if they don't make it that can they can justify it another way right and i'm like guys like you know let's let's let's try and educate the the world as much as you can you're gonna get things wrong yeah it's life but don't try and bluff your way through i remember working for nottingham forest because i knew the greek um ship owner yeah everyone's not in forest and when in my time in greece and i went to watch a game at everton and there was a game where nottingham forest made that famous tweet after that.

1:06:23Ah, yeah. Which was too educated for me, so there was no way I writ the fuck out. Everybody says, I writ it. People saying you wrote it. Yeah, people say. It came out half-time, right? No, it came out with the full-time. Full-time, okay, right. But everybody was like, Mark wrote that because I was waiting for the club. And I'm like, it was too fucking educated for me. If you really know my language, it definitely wasn't my language. But no, they made a complaint. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pick-up game, Swish! To athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll.

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I mean there was a contact but I think for me it's one of them where you win you get it you're happy if you get it if it goes against you you'll be upset you know but there was two nailed on right and you know there was one clear handball yeah and the other one was a clear foul and you talk to the people and you think the hiding behind yeah we've probably made one but now you've made two yeah you know if I was a referee there you can't hide with it you can't have your hands out like that yeah even Ashley Young who was the one that handled it even accepts later on that's a handball if players are telling you that yeah and it's just the frustration is people get a bit of insulin and I think when you leave the group everybody thinks well you've left the group now it's like the shaky hand club you're out you've got no membership right your pass doesn't open the door anymore so you you completely so I don't speak to any of them which is fine is there not was there not like a WhatsApp group or anything like that no did we have WhatsApp then probably not I think we just got mobiles blackberries um no so there wasn't like there might have been within groups yeah but all i didn't really care about that all i wanted to do was train work hard and do what i had to do and referee the best i could but you know at the end of the day i was human and you always got to make mistakes what about with players are you i mean when you're i guess when you're a current ref an active ref you you can't befriend players no but you'd see them out like if you're in dubai or places and can you go over and chat to them or does that say hello of course it's like if you've seen somebody in the street and like you can't turn around and say I can't speak to you because I'm a referee by the way but the way the media is and the tabloids are if they see you over there speaking to John Terry and Chelsea you've got an FA Cup final coming up that you're going to I think that's that's a bad way to think isn't it if we can't if we can't have a conversation or I can't have a conversation with a manager or I can't have a conversation with a player and have maybe you know conversations about maybe about a game or about just in general how as a family or you're out about would i would i message a player to go out for a beer no right you know i mean would i do that with a coach no right but i remember in china for example i was in a restaurant and one of the coaches from beijing one who was a german and he comes in the restaurant and was sitting had a coffee he was like how was some things he had a coffee had a beer and we just had a chat about china football and you know refereeing standards it was nice it was refreshing but you're right if somebody took a picture and i'm refereeing beijing guan the next week but how sad is that oh no if i can't be professional yeah to to think that i can't have a talk to a coach or yeah it's sad world that we're living you're right referees have to be impartial and shouldn't be like in a whatsapp group yeah you know talking to players and stuff like that it can back back back you but if for example if a coach or a manager and i've had managers ring us after games complaining or but i've also had managers supporting us when for example with the over mikhail situation where i was accused of being a racist in 2012 yeah chelsea managers ringing us up and messaging us asking how how i was and how i well been and for example for tony pulis yeah when i was left to go to saudi arabia one of my last matches was west brom and leicester and I got asked to go into the manager's room before the game and Tony Pulis was in with Grim Shakespeare was the Leicester court and both were like why are you leaving and like you know it was just a nice conversation we don't want to leave why the best referee in the Premier League leaving the best league in the world and you know it was just there was a lot of factors not just the money but there was other factors but you know that they could have a conversation if both managers were there and you know what if both managers are there that's fine yeah you know but what what would be hard and i think this is where the level goes like i used to have managers wanting to come in at half time and they would come in at half time i'd knock on the door and they would ask you a quick question and they would walk out but then the other team would accuse you of oh he's influenced this and it's the mindset change from when i first got on the premier league to where it was now is completely social media probably plays a huge part in that as well though conspiracies as well i think everybody has these conspiracy theories because we're being brought up with a lot of conspiracy theories in the world now.

1:12:36We never heard about them but now we're so used to them so everybody's got everybody's got these conspiracy you think that referee must be given that foul because he's an Arsenal fan and there's so many things which is absolutely ridiculous. Someone's just created that they've just got that's a situation I'll make up in my head and then everyone believes it. But is it actually and you're a very honest guy so I think you'll tell us if it's true but is it actually possible for a referee to be completely 100 % non-biased? Right, I've refereed two Newcastle games. Have you? Yeah. One was Alan Shearer's testimony.

1:13:14Right. That was non-biased. No comment. Who did win 3-2? And Newcastle did score with Alan Shearer. Still saying we as bad, isn't it? But no, there's no biased. Absolutely not. But if there's like a player that you think, I'm not going to ask you for any names, but if there's a player and you think he is a knobhead and he's always been a knobhead to me ever since I come through, are you less likely to give that player a decision? I think that's human. I think that would be, if somebody's abusing you to a level, would you give them a second chance in life? I pose that question to anybody. If somebody's abusing you, would you give them a second chance?

1:13:55I doubt when it gets to a level. I think when the most, the clever people and the more experienced players got, they knew what to do. Because what was the point of abusing the referee? Because if you got abused a referee and you got caution, say, for dissent, you've got a high chance you're going to get sent off. Yeah. You know, so, and also I think the more referees get abused, the less likely you're going to get a decision, a 50-50 call. Yeah, of course. You know, that's natural human behavior. And probably they have been caught. There's players we've seen for years, and I wasn't refereeing, but you've seen players for years where they were probably accused of simulating a lot, where there's a small contact.

1:14:38They probably went over looking for penalties. So when they did get clipped, they probably didn't get a penalty. Now with AR, it's different. But players who were less likely going down. We have a player like that at the minute, like Pakatar, Lucas Pakatar. He goes down all the time. And West Ham fans will tell you that. It's actually a little bit annoying, but he goes down all the time so now when he gets fouled it seems like the refs don't give him you'll pick up on stuff like that won't you even if you've not reffed him I've never refereed Lewis but it was interesting because I haven't supported him but I supported his legal team because of the issue with his betting I was one of the expert witnesses oh were you?

1:15:18yeah so the FA produced the reports I'm not producing anything that hasn't been said yeah of course what would you have to look at the footage of the yellows yeah yeah so yeah so i looked at the whole game i didn't just look at the yellows because you can't take something into context just looking at something no um in isolation and also you've got to look at how the premier league is compared to other leagues in the world like for example you can't compare the spanish and the italian league to the premier league because slower in italy and also there's more physical contact that's allowed in the premier league yeah every player says that when they come to the premier league yeah new they go oh my god it's a bit physical this and you know players expect it so they get less yellow cards right so you can't turn around every two minutes and say well that's a foul that's got to be a yellow card so you've got to look at it a lot of things but there was four i think it was four games wasn't it that he was accused of yeah and were they just normal yellows for you then i can't i can't remember the full facts but there was a lot you know there was a lot riding on the on the on their outcome because that player would have been banned probably for a period of time lifetime ban.

1:16:23Yeah. And, you know, as a player, you know, the, the, the risk of, and that's the other thing, like, you know, betting, you know, is, is as bad as anything else. Yeah. Because, you know, betting on the outcome of games, betting on, you know, first through in first penalty kick, which is bonkers really, you know, as referees, there was blanket, an absolute blanket ban. on betting on football yeah because why yeah why would you because would you be allowed to now or not because you're still involved i don't you know why because i i'm still involved yeah probably i could yeah but because i haven't got any influential yeah but there's things you could be so i could find out through sources that i know a certain manager is going to be at a club yeah right but trippier got done for that didn't he knew he was going to atletico and he put it in a group chat saying lump on this yeah so there's inside trading yeah it's not so it's not it's not worth it because you know what it doesn't really bother i like horse racing right i like you know i like good horse racing meetings and stuff like chelna mascar and right in the entry but football doesn't really bother me like for that yeah you know i mean because i would be useless i mean i did a fantasy football just for a laugh at a local irish pub in spain yeah and i'm bottom of the league on that fucking train.

1:17:38I am shocking. Who was the worst player you ever had to ref in terms of who made your life hard? I've said this many times. Yeah, go on. And it's always going to be the same. Suarez? No, Suarez was an amazing player. I loved refereeing Louis Suarez. Did you? I remember refereeing him for the first time in Ajax. Okay. I remember the game and people, I remember the most bizarre things. My family say, I forget the, you know, when I put the washing out or something like that. But I remember the little deal I played Slovan Bratislava and he scored four. And he took the bloody match ball off his, didn't he?

1:18:12Because he got the four he wanted. But no, it was an incredible talent. Yeah. And I said to my mates when I got home, I said, what a player, man. Yeah. He goes, you saw it, you're like first time, what a player. And then he signed for Liverpool and what happened after that was just like, I think he scored four against Norwich about three times, didn't he? Yeah. And he's nuts. He was nuts as a player. But then you saw the talent. I remember refereeing him, playing for Barcelona against Paris, where I coached him, and he just megged David Luiz and just bent it into the top corner. And then I think Bayern Munich's semi-final when he just tore Bayern.

1:18:47Bayern went one up, but there were 3-0 from the first. They went 3-1. Bayern, Allianz was bouncing, one of the noisiest stadiums I've ever experienced. And then it was just a Louis Suarez show after that. An incredible footballer. You've had some fucking life, you know. You've lived every football fan's dream. You've been in the middle of the park. talking about these players you know what I mean like we're always saying negative because I always had problems with Craig Bellamy always have as a coach he's incredible and probably outside now he's different you know what I mean but me and him just never got on he didn't like me and I didn't like him that's a fact you know what I mean I've said this and I've said it many times before I probably sent him in off incorrectly at ball probably on hindsight I did after watching him back and I was probably too harsh on him but as a person I just couldn't connect with him and he didn't connect with me so it didn't really get on eye to eye so that probably created this fight and on you know on the pitch i would fight with him he would fight with me and there was only one winner right yeah because he had millions of fans that loved him you know but there was so many if there was so many net like players i'm talking players most of it was just that that probably upset about other things maybe a decision maybe about the court a lot of it was just frustration on the pitch and you've got to deal with these multi-millionaires who have got problems and you know a lot of it's like you're firefighting all the time you're like trying to put out different issues on the pitch you know you've got these laws that you're talking about the laws it's not half of it wasn't about that it's like you know i could have everybody in the stadium believe in every decision i could make right and i wouldn't get booed off everybody would be happy probably watch match of the day you might have a different opinion right yeah but it's that art and keeping them players if a player's gesturing all the time chasing you the crowd get upset because they think that player's right yeah yeah but if the players are like okay Mark walk away and you're about to shout you think well there's no point shouting the players accepted it they must be right do you ever have to like go against the the laws of the game when it just for like the moral high ground I remember um 13-14 years ago Billy Sharp tragically lost his son didn't he I would do the same yeah and he took his shirt or he scored a goal took his shirt off and had that's for you son on his vest and the ref got a lot of praise because he just didn't just didn't book him yeah I think there's certain situations where you've got to go against yeah and I think common sense I know there's no such thing as common sense is it but you try and have some empathy and the laws we know why the law was brought out shirt removal because people had better bodies than others you know what I mean is that why?

1:21:26no was it an advertiser I heard that it was for advertiser they didn't like when the team celebrate and they're taking off the advert across there that's something I read at some point in that moment it's being zoomed in on this one player who's celebrating and they're getting rid of the sponsor across their shirt but if you've ever seen Cristiano Ronaldo's body you'd be like keep it keep it off you know what I mean but like I think there's times where and you could probably not that you find a way but there's this comment there's got to be some common sense but you're not allowed to use it and what that's what upsets because i remember doing a game at chelsea it was chelsea west brom and i think chelsea were winning 6-1 and there was a potential there was about six seconds left i think and there was a potential penalty and it would have been a red card you know what i mean right and i just found the way to blow the full-time whistle and chelsea brought off 6-1 drove by laughs at us you know comes and gives it a cuddling because he it was football you know what i mean the boy would have been sent off and what the seven won and it would have been the totem point yeah but people will say the purists will say well you should have done your job but you've got to find some empathy which players and coaches and not always football fans that would accept you more and you know you've like the billy shot was a great example if if other players did it and you knew there was a message but you would hope that and what i would like to have happened is people told you about it and when they told you about it you can be you can be aware of it so then you can find a way to think well what can i do in that heat in that situation when you're not aware of it you sometimes react in different ways especially if the game's heated for example you end up doing stuff that you probably wouldn't do if you knew about it right right sometimes nice to know what's going on and that's an example sometimes what you what is happening with football players off the field the loss of some family member or something's happened has an impact it's nice to know yeah so you can you can factor that in a little bit can't you you won't let them take the piss but even if a player is strange with you then you know why he's strange and you just you know you leave them alone and if they're emotional then you know to stay away from it you know what i mean and then they might need you and just say look i'm here if you need us yeah as an example yeah as a referee you would never hear that to a player would you know if you need us i'm here just come come and speak to us yeah and you're a figure of authority that can help in moments like that also you've got to have some empathy you know mark i don't know if you can does it does it feel quite cool to send someone off be honest not really because you've you've i think i'd love it I hated it because you're making the game imbalanced.

1:24:16Yeah. The 10v11 damages the game. I remember, and I was right in law, and it was a right decision, but it's one of them decisions where you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. I remember it was Man City Arsenal, and I sent off Derek Boyata. I think he was making his day. I don't even know who that is. Who's that? He was a centre-half. So you'd end up, I think Mancini, Mancini was a coach. Right. I can't remember it was a coach, but Mancini's in my head. And he makes a huge decision to drop somebody, like one of the high-profile defenders. And he puts Derek Boyat in, and after five minutes, I had to give him a red card for a denial.

1:24:56And I made the right decision. But after the match, all the pundits, it's a correct decision. I couldn't not do it. But then the abuse I took off the Man City coach and the people, because I've spoiled the game. I damaged the game because I'd done my job. Oh, I should have used common sense. He was playing his first game. He's only a young player. You know, and I'm thinking, wow, this is how difficult it is. So did I want to do it? No. Because I knew I damaged the game. The game wasn't a spectacle because Arsenal went on to win 3-0, I think it was, and it was an easy game for Arsenal. And Man City always blamed me because I did my job.

1:25:41But here's the thing. This is where you can't win. So you're getting told you should have sort of let him off because it was his first one. But then that one you did let off at 6-1 Chelsea West Brom, you're getting told you should have done your job and stuff. Yeah, you can't win. You literally can't win. No, you can't win. The ones that you win is when nothing happens. Yeah. But that never happens. Not in modern football now. I can't, I've never seen a game where I could go through that Norwich Chelsea game again without giving a free kick in the first half. That won't happen again. Right. Because the game is so different.

1:26:10you know and the game's moved so many times and you know we talk about common sense we talk about vr's changed games we've talked about referees changed a lot of it players have changed you know young players don't speak anymore yeah all the experienced players used to have banter yeah and the banner used to be brilliant on the pitch who were the best for you uh john terry was yeah good banter yeah he would be the ones that were always voted the ones but you had some like like Vincent Company for example you could have you could have moments with them but you had to show authority at times I remember doing a game in Israel in Jerusalem and he was playing for the Belgium national team and I had to give him a second yellow he got caught off a corner they were winning the game 2-0 but he's got caught off a corner and they got exposed to the back so he just brought somebody down give him a second yellow and he goes off and then this was on the Wednesday or Wednesday on the Sunday I'm referring to Manchester Derby.

1:27:11So Vincent Kompany's playing and he slips into a challenge. It was wet and he slips into a challenge and it's called for him to be red carded. And I buy myself time. I go to my sister and I say, is the challenge this bad? And he's like, nah, nothing. I think he slipped a little bit. So I give him the benefit of doubt. I give him the yellow card. And he didn't come out for the second half because he got injured in the tackle. And he came to us later on after the game and he says, Mo, I couldn't believe it. He said, I thought you were going to send us off twice in a week. but like and he said i've watched a bat and it's not a red card but he says for a moment he said i thought i was going to get two red cards off you in a week but he was such a great character you know yeah and i remember also a funny story about how refereeing can be like enjoyable i remember after this game i didn't realize that a lot of manchester united fans lived in ireland northern ireland i was so stupid enough um decided after the match i'm going to go and do a talk to some referees in in ireland in belfast so on the sunday night after the match i traveled to manchester airport what was the match the manchester dog you had won four one so it was it was a it was a there was no problems in the game other than this vincent company called but because i won four one nobody didn't talk about it yeah so i'm coming through the airport and they shout me name clattenberg clattenberg and i'm like oh shit i forgot that loads of man united fans are are going back to belfast on this flight so it was an easy jeff flight so it was only a 25 minute flight from manchester airport to belfast yeah you've ever done it's a short little yeah so i'm in one of the like row three or four and the cabin crew i'm thinking how they're going to serve drinks in a 25 minute flight but they started she comes past us she comes past and she goes she goes sir do you want a drink and i said no no 25 minutes i says i'll get a drink when i get in the hotel you know so within about a minute the same girl taps us on the shoulder and she goes she put four beers down and I goes I don't want any she went everybody's buying you a beer on the flight why and I'm thinking if Manny and I had lost I wouldn't have got their beers I wouldn't have been getting thrown things but everybody was buying as a beer because it won I thought how nice that was that's quality that's quality if you have a particularly good game or make a particularly bad decision will you rush back and watch that on match of the day is that what refs do I wouldn't watch on match we would get a recording do you get what you get the game sent to you every time yeah yeah so we would have it straight after the game but so I would I would always watch it but what I would try to do as well is balance it out because you've got so much negative you always feel negative I remember Jose Mourinho criticising us in a game at Stoke playing when he was Man United coach and he was obsessed that Ryan Shortcross had handled it and he said he'd seen it and I hadn't and it was eating away at us all the way home and I had to say when I got home and when I saw it I was pissed off because it wasn't a handball you know and he was playing games but it was mind games all at all I had to drive home and it was in my head all the way home yeah um so you try to find good moments as well so when you had a good game or you made an influential decision i.e you've given like a good advantage it's led to a goal it's nice to hear some of the commentators because they're balanced yeah to give you some like oh that's a good decision because you never really get that because most of it's negative yeah of course um but when you've got something when i've done something bad i always wanted to analyze why i got it wrong right to try and improve it and try and find a way why i got it wrong was it position was it movement was it like a concentration like a fitness had i done something different i don't know so i was always trying to be better than the game before and that's why you got to the top yeah but nobody remembers the last game you only remember the next one what would you what sorry what would you say is your best ever refereeing performance uh pressure wise the champions league final because that was brutal pressure you know just think when you're walking out right in front to billions of people worldwide and you've got that ball on the plint and you're thinking fuck me don't drop that that's all that's going on in my head you know think about it you're walking out in front of a billion people forget about the match yeah you've got that ball on that plint and you're thinking don't drop it or slip over yeah i'll slip over i was weirdly going to ask the opposite are there any decisions that still haunt you to this day like do you still think about anything in particular yeah there's one massively and it it lost the balance like people talk about you've got to be careful with football fans but I think the most successful games is where both teams are happy you can't get that always but you've always got to try to find some balance and I think if teams feel that they've been fed they might have been wronged the thing but as long as they feel it's fair across the game they're happy you know what I mean they'll be a bit criticism but the Merseyside Derby Everton Liverpool where I was kept away from Everton for about six years was I didn't give Lescott Lescott got brought down by Jimmy Carragher.

1:31:53Right. Last minute of the game. But there was a lot of things happened in the second half. Probably should have sent off Dirk Kaut. I've sent off two Everton players. And Everton players probably were red cards. Dirk Kaut should have received a red card for Liverpool. Right. But forget about that. If I give that penalty at 2-1 and Everton make it 2-2, a lot of it's forgotten about what I've just talked about. But the shift of balance from being all Liverpool decisions would have just went back a little bit towards, yeah, it would have still been, fucking hell, Clattenberg, you're fucking shade.

1:32:29Yeah. Instead of, Clattenberg, you're a fucking, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to give you. Is that what you got? Yeah, yeah, I got beat. And I realised, it woke me up as a referee. It actually taught us some valuable lessons about understanding the game and trying to, you know, think about the game. and I remember how that memory made a decision in a game that Pierluigi Kalina said at a meeting was one of the, an amazing decision. It was a playoff and a playoff in the Champions League is incredibly tense. Probably more tense in the semi-final because clubs, to get into the Champions League group stage was huge.

1:33:08Yeah. To miss out, to go into the Europa was tough for some teams and I remember refereeing, it was Bordeaux, they dropped down the leagues now, Andy Carroll was playing for them a couple of years ago. Yeah, he was. And they were playing Slovan Bratislava. And a ball went, I remember in the game, I sent off a player from Bordeaux, home team player, which is always the crowd goes up. Then there was a player from Bordeaux thinks, there was a body check. It was too far from goal. It was covering defenders, but it was a fucking strong body check. Right. But it didn't meet the criteria of a red card.

1:33:43It wasn't an elbow. It was just a physical body check. and so Bordeaux are down to 10 men so now this player's flat out oxygen stretcher everything in this game and I'm thinking oh my god they're down to 9 players now so you can imagine the hostile and they've got us Bordeaux have got us I think it was 0-0 at this point so it was 0-0 from the first leg 0-0 from the second leg so they're potentially playing with 9 players and I'm thinking oh my word so for about 5 minutes they're down to 9 men and every decision they're putting pressure they're putting pressure which makes it more difficult to referee, you know.

1:34:19And eventually the player comes back in. So then it goes to 11-10. So it's a little bit less pressure, but it's still pressure. The home team are screaming for everything. The players are trying to put you under pressure because they didn't believe you. They didn't believe the body checks shouldn't have been a red card. Right. And then Slovan scored. Whatever it was, but Slovan scored and this put them through. So it must have been 1-0 from the first. Whatever had happened, yeah, a way goal or something, nil. Whatever had happened, It was, no, so it was 1-0 to Bordeaux. They scored. Then Slovan scored in about one or two minutes left, which give them the away goal.

1:34:58Oh, fuck. So you can imagine, God, Bordeaux's winning. I can get away with it. They win the game. Everybody will forget about all the decisions in the game. And then Slovan scored, and they're going through one away goal. So they kick off, and they play it long. There's about a minute left. and I play it long and then I switch off a little bit but my assistant's running down the line and the goalkeeper comes out and he comes out and the player goes past him and the go down, goes down the attacker goes down the Bordeaux player goes down penalty or no penalty and I've got my assistant shouting down my earpiece it's a dive, it's a dive goal kick and all of these memories of Liverpool Everton game just came back to us in a split second.

1:35:44You'd think, how do you got time to replay? And I'm thinking to myself, everything's gone against Bordeaux. And I mean, now, if this is not a penalty, if I get this wrong, I'm destroyed. And I've just said how much money it means to clubs if I've got a wrong decision, no technology. And I went, penalty. And my assistant's going, wait, that's not a penalty. It's not a penalty. It was a dive. And I've gone, pen. The goalkeeper looks a bit sheepish. So I give him a yellow card. you can just tell by body lounge I'm thinking I might have this one right right right so I give us a penalty and I give us a penalty on there was I could see things don't say I didn't make the decision I could see but I wasn't 100 % I've got my sister in a better position feeling experienced you haven't got replays in chess at that point and I call it and after the game I'm surrounded by Bratislava players they're furious because they've been knocked out of the Champions League blah blah blah comes into the dressing room the assessor comes immediately and he's looking at us and I'm thinking, I've got this one wrong.

1:36:45I've got this one wrong. Because you just, you know, by the body language. And he goes away, comes back 10 minutes later. He must have watched the video and he gives us a hug. And I'd already had a message of somebody saying that seeing it, what a decision. And I'm thinking to myself, but I didn't say anything to the assistant. I left them stew a bit. When the assessor came in, he goes, Mark, what a decision. The assistant went, never said a digger. I never turned around and said it was a fucking dive but that was learning that was me learning and my survival knowing that that experience of Liverpool Everton and their threats and their abuse I had to get a decision and make a decision and that decision made Bordeaux qualify, it was the correct decision but they forgot about all of the other decisions, nobody even talked about it perfect outcome, but imagine if I didn't give the penalty they would have been talked about it Yeah, still now.

1:37:37We've still been talking about it. Yeah, yeah. Do you need luck? What a great way to end. Mark, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you and chat to you. You speak so openly and honestly, and that's why your podcast, Whistleblowers, is such a great pod. Go and check out Whistleblowers on all good platforms. Mark, it's been a pleasure. It's been Chatmates Happy Hour Podcast with me, Chatmate, Stevie White, Mark Clattenberg. Mark, we always finish with the same question. What's the meaning of life? Enjoy, be humble, and you know what? you never think about yesterday only you think about tomorrow perfect, there we go, see you in a few days thank you so much that's great, thanks for coming in loved it

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