35. Cargo without borders: How airships are about to connect the unreachable | Mark Dorey

25:23This is a slow burn. I mean, it's a long time, big investment, I imagine. It is. I mean, people across the industry have spent a lot of money developing these aircraft. But things in aviation do take a long time. You know, it takes a long time to certify aircraft, to design, to develop, particularly when you're looking at something which is relatively new, albeit that it combines known and existing technologies. It still takes time to get that done. Patient capital, do you? You need patient capital. People are passionate about the project. Most of the people that we have involved from an investment standpoint have an interest.

26:02Many of them are partners, strategic partners in different parts of the world. So Ron Hyde in Alaska with his company PRL would be a good example of that. So people who see and understand the markets and understand the use cases and people that really want to see us succeed and want to see the technology succeed in the Middle East. We've got an investor based in Kuwait, Abdurrahman Elisa. He has a vision of moving freight in and out of the region from Africa and in and out of Europe. You know, it's about finding good people and people that are there for the long haul. So these are people who, as well as investors, are potential customers.

26:43Potential partners and or customers, more partners because they have, you know, so Ron in Alaska, has a logistics business. So he would handle the oil and gas company or the government contract, but we would provide the airship technology to deliver. How long did it take you to sort of get this idea up and running, you know, when you obviously left Virgin and you wanted to do this? Was that a difficult process or did you have people saying we want this? Or how did it come about? From our point of view, I suppose we were more reactive having been, we'd seen the original hybrid design launched in the UK up at Cardington Hangers near Bedfordshire back in the early 2000s, designed by a guy called Roger Monk.

27:26And we could see the potential. But as I say, it takes a long time for those ideas to come through and get to a point where they're close enough to delivery. They're close enough to reality for us as an operator to come in and start talking. But since then, we've talked with a lot of customers. you know, we've had conversations with significantly over 100 end use customers in all parts of the world. And so we've qualified the demand for the airship in many, many different areas, both geographically and in the sense of different markets. So all that work has been going on during the last eight, nine, 10 years as we've moved forward.

28:07And we're now ready to launch. We put an order in for the first airship. Our next phase is to build out the operations team. We've got key people already in place and lined up and to move forward with the business development. So if there are people who are listening or interested who want to be part of this, where do they find you, Mark? What's your email or not your email, your web address? The easiest one, yeah. I think you can find us all on our website, which is straightlineaviation.com. That will give you the details about the airship and the technology and who we are and our background.

28:38So whether you're a potential customer or business partner, or whether you have somebody who likes the sound of what we're doing and a potential investor, then yeah, please, by all means, get in touch and love to have a chat. That's great. So how many airships do you imagine you might be running in the future? What's your sort of vision for that? Is there a great fleet? Yeah, great. I mean, it's a great question. I mean, there have been a number of independent market surveys done by renowned and esteemed management consultants. And interestingly, they've all come up with a number around 500 aircraft using completely different assumptions.

29:13There's partial overlap, but there's not a complete overlap in how they see the market. If you look at the customer inquiries that we've had, as I say, we've spoken to well over 100 serious people. And many of those have use for multiple airships acting often as a road bridge or an air bridge, I should say, connecting point A with point B directly. So we think that that's wildly underestimated. I mean, we could probably tot up over 500 potential orders already. And bearing in mind that when it goes into production, you're looking at production numbers of about a dozen a year in the first instance, you can see that demand wildly exceeds the supply side of things.

29:58It certainly does. So yeah, so you'll have the first one, eh? We have the ordering for the first one. We've got some ideas about where that's going to go. And before we get to the commercial deployment, you won't be surprised to hear this, we're planning on flying nonstop around the world, which will be the launch and the marketing platform, and also raise a lot of awareness and support charities in doing that. So we're excited about that. It's going to be easier than flying around in a hot air balloon because you've got a couple of engines to take you where you want to go. But nevertheless, it's quite a challenge.

30:30Why is it a challenge technically? Because you still need to have the assistance and work with the weather systems around the world. So you've got to pick a good time. And so if you were flying into a headwind all around the world, you wouldn't make it. You just can't carry enough fuel to do it. So you've still got an element, which means that you've got to plan and manage that process. It's the balance between the payload and the distance you're flying, temperature, altitude. There's a lot of things that come into the picture. That's fantastic. I look forward to hearing all about that. That would be a fantastic thing to do.

31:08So headwinds, they apply in all sorts of ways in business. Yes, indeed. We don't want headwinds. Yeah. So you once worked for Richard Branson, obviously, for some time. Yes. Yeah. What do you learn from him in terms of what you've carried on into your entrepreneurial endeavors as an entrepreneur? You know, first and foremost, I think when you meet Richard for the first time, the thing that hits you is his energy and enthusiasm. And I think that's something that is entirely relevant to whatever business you're running. You know, if you've got that passion, you've got that drive, then you're going to succeed.

31:45You know, I can be as blunt as that. I'm not saying if you don't have it, you won't succeed. But certainly, if you've got that, you've got a much bigger and better chance of succeeding. Clearly, he's known for injecting a lot of fun into the places that he works. And I think that's, you know, important. It's got to be tempered, particularly when you're in aviation. You know, it's a serious business. But, you know, there's no doubt that if people are enjoying themselves, they perform better. they stick around longer. And in that sense, it's also easier to find, recruit and retain good people. So finding those people, finding people that are going to take that vision on, I think is absolutely key to what Richard's done, certainly historically, and then empowering those people to get on and giving them the opportunity to make decisions, to back them when they make those decisions, to support them.

32:33That engenders, again, an ownership in what you're doing. So not being afraid to make a decision. You've got to make decisions in life. If you don't make a decision, you're going to fail. But a lot of places, you know, in places that I've worked, people who make decisions are setting themselves up for criticism. You get the finger pointed at you, the blame culture, okay, well. And then what happens is everybody ducks their head down below the parapet and nothing happens. Right. You know, it's, oh, it's me, oh, well, I emailed them and then they haven't done it. So if you can empower people and get them to, you know, And by doing that, they take ownership.

33:09Then you deliver. I think there's a sort of slight misnomer that people talk about customer service, and they imagine that Virgin's all about customer service, which it is. But it's customer service driven by the fact that the individual people in the organization, no matter where you are, are responsible and given the headroom to deliver. And that's why you get good customer service, because you've got good staff. Richard Branson, you were saying, was very good then at delegating decision making to the people in the very front customer facing roles. How did they do that? I mean, how did they stop the finger pointing?

33:43Let's get their head down. I think because it's almost become self-policing that if you get somebody in an organization that does behave like that, they don't stay around for very long because the other people won't wear it. It's a double edged sword in that sense. And I think you've got to balance that responsibility with authority. Richard was never a great one for large-scale analysis and reams of business plans and pages of numbers, which coming from an accountancy background, you think, oh, gosh, we must produce a, you know, and then he'd say, look, just put it on two pages. And if it doesn't sound good to me when I've read two pages, then we'll move on and try something else.

34:20Just put it on two pages. Just put it on two pages. That's a good one. And that's it. Well, I think Churchill insisted on one page. But yeah, one page, two pages, but no more than that. Yeah, yeah. It's like a CV, really. You don't want more than that. So you then transitioned sort of from Virgin to start your own business with your business partner. So you went from employee to entrepreneur. I know this is a journey lots of people consider. What did you learn from that? And what were the pros and cons? What was on your mind when you made that leap? And how's it worked out? It's worked out very well.

34:51And we wouldn't be where we are now today if I hadn't made that jump. I think the biggest thing is, and it is quite scary, you suddenly remove the safety net. You're working for an organization with some size. You know it's got the financial clout and then in Virgin's case, the brand to back you up and back those decisions. And you've got a team of people around you. You've got people who are specialists in different fields and you can delegate. And then suddenly you go and you set up your own business and you've got to do everything. I mean, we were always very hands-on and I would like to think that I rolled my sleeves up and then got stuck in.

35:33No IT help desk, for instance, which would worry me. Exactly, yeah. Absolutely. You have to fix it yourself. You've got to do it yourself. And sometimes it can feel like because of that you're making slower progress than you would like because normally you'd have 10 people who would all be scaring and then a week later you'd have the decision. Now you've got to generate that yourself or with a much smaller team. So you've got to be adaptable. You've got to work with people who have a similar mindset. But at the same time, you've got to be very clear about your focus and what you're trying to achieve.

36:10When you said there's no safety net, the word that came to my mind was you have to have some courage. Yes, possibly. Well, without a safety net, you've got to step forward and do so with some courage and energy and vigor to make things happen. You've got to believe in yourself and you've got to believe in the team around you, yeah. But courage isn't a gift. I mean, because you'll still be acutely aware that things can go wrong. Of course. You're on the high wire and you don't want to fall off. Exactly. But it does require some guts, I think, to go out and start something. Yeah, I think it does.

36:40And hats off to anybody who's thinking of trying it. I mean, I would say the rewards are there. But also you shouldn't be afraid of failure. Again, going back to the example with Richard. Richard set up many businesses which didn't succeed. You'd have trouble finding a virgin cola these days. Well, a virgin cola. I remember the condom business and virgin fashion and perfume. A lot of things, which is what you've got to do. You've got to do it. And as I say, you've got to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go again if it doesn't work. And that's the same with us in the airship business. We haven't had the failures, but what we have had is to adapt to changing circumstances and move forward.

37:20And, you know, what was the most disappointing? We raised a lot of money in China to move the business forward and meet what Lockheed was setting as objectives at the time. And then Donald Trump, in his last administration, decided to have a go at the Chinese and put tariffs in place. And the whole deal fell over and there was nothing we could do about it. And you think, oh, God, I've literally spent probably eight, 10 weeks in the last iteration sitting in a hotel in Hong Kong negotiating the deal. And we got it all signed and everything else. And then, you know, they turn around and say, sorry, you know, global political.

37:52How do you feel about that? So you've got to find some other avenue. You've got to take stock and look at different avenues and re-engage with people that you think would be interested in taking that business and working with us to take the business forward. That's difficult, isn't it? There was a lot of things that had to then be reassessed, Lockheed reassessed where they stood, and all of this takes time, and all of this is outside of our control. you've got to be patient and you've got to have that resilience. Well, the environment is very unpredictable, isn't it, at the moment, especially it seems to be with lots of new technologies coming on, lots of disruption.

38:29Yeah. And yours is quite a long project with a big vision. Yeah. I mean, that's difficult, isn't it, in an environment which is essentially quite chaotic? It is, but I think the fundamentals remain unchanged. There's a huge demand for the airship out there. There's a great customer base. We know where the markets are. We've got a supportive investor base. And we're engaged with people. We've largely set up our network of partners around the world. So it seems to me that you need to be patient. You're very clear in your objective and you keep going towards it. Yeah, exactly that. One of our guests said, you know, the bigger the goal, the smaller the problem.

39:12You know, we have got a bit. because in a way that feels like this is the case. I think that's absolutely the case. I mean, people often ask me, why do you stick at it? And I think the answer is that there are very few things that come across your desk where you really feel that you could be involved in something that will make a huge difference to the world. And I don't want to overstate it, but if you look at the potential to reduce carbon emissions, both in terms of operations and in terms of infrastructure, So not having to build roads and rail links in places like Canada, where you've got beautiful wilderness, and improving the social and economic well-being for the communities and the people in those regions, connecting them to the world.

39:54You know, this is something which could be transformative. We've done a lot of work with the United Nations, and the airship can help deliver something like 17 of the 19 strategic development goals of the UN, and they identify a lack of transport connectivity as one of the major, or if not the major impediment to growth. So this is a global business, and as you say, it's too great to give up on. Yeah, no, I'm very clear that you're not going to give up on it, from what you've been saying, and you're obviously enthusiasm and passion for it. What would you say to entrepreneurs who maybe have been working through a vision of this, not the same, but for years and have yet to break through?

40:34Your first flight is yet to happen, but there will be people in all sorts of lines of work who are perhaps on the cusp or think that they've got further to go. What words of wisdom would you share with them? I'd steal something from Karen Billamoria, who I had speak some years ago. and he was in the process of developing Cobra Beer. Yeah, I know Karen. He's a good guy. He's a friend of mine. But what did he say? And he said, you know, in the path that he took and bearing in mind how successful it's been, he said there will be three or four times when you think this is going to fail, whether it's financing, whatever it is.

41:11And he said, you've just got to push through those moments and believe in what you're doing and you will get through. You will find a way of getting through it. I think the other thing is you do, you know to temper that you do have to be realistic you've got to know and and you've got to have a real sense that there is a demand for what it is that you're trying to trying to build and i would caution people you know just jumping into things that where they don't have the expertise and perhaps they haven't done their their market due diligence because you on the other hand you can waste a lot of time if you know there's a demand out there and you know what you're doing is going to be game-changing then then you will find a way and people will be there to support you.

41:50Well, so, I mean, it's a sort of eyes open perseverance. Yes. That's required. I mean, there are a lot of people in the airship industry who have missed completely the operational aspects of their design. So they're heading off in directions where we think they've got their design wrong, but they're passionate about what they're doing and time will tell. But you've got to understand what it is technically, particularly in aviation that you're trying to deliver. So airships in general, it sounds like, are about to make quite a big comeback. You've got other people developing them. Absolutely, yeah.

42:25I think this could be a big thing for the next 25 years. There's a huge amount of potential for airships. I mean, not least, I mean, we've talked about significantly reducing the carbon footprint with the hybrid airship as it stands, but the hybrid airship is also on the path to true zero emissions aviation. So whether it's zero net emissions using sustainable aviation fuel, or whether it's use of hydrogen fuel cells, battery technology to power the airships. The airships are uniquely capable. They don't have the same kind of payload penalty that a fixed-wing aircraft or a helicopter would have.

42:59They don't have the same volume issues. So you can see the airship being very much on the path to developing zero emissions. So potentially it's the first true zero flying vehicle. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's why a lot of people are interested. You know, it's a reduction in the carbon footprint is being able to access places without destroying the environment to give people that opportunity in a sustainable and manageable way. Oh, I wish you every success with that. So the last sort of theme I want to pick up on, you said you'd work with Mike. Yes. You're co-founder for many years, longer than many marriages.

43:36I just want to explore that because, you know, some people go into business on their own. Some people go into business with family members, siblings, father and son, mother and daughter. You've gone into business with someone you've worked with before. You said you complement each other. What are the pros and cons of that route? I think it's always great to work with people who have complementary skills because it's rare that you find somebody who doesn't benefit from input from other people and other perspectives, other thoughts and other thought processes. so it's a relationship of mutual respect and we're all the time testing each other and and developing ideas we don't always agree so what happens then yeah when you don't agree oh you know we can we can have the odd argument how do you make a decision if you want to go this way anyone's go that way i think we just go back revisit it we think about what the other person said we amass arguments to support our point of view or we realize that you have to be prepared to change your mind.

44:38Absolutely. There'll be occasions when you go back and say, Mike, I think you were right on that. Yeah, absolutely. And he'll do the same. And vice versa. Are you the CEO? Yeah, I'm the CEO. But it's the exec chair. He's exec chair. That's kind of, you're kind of like, I'm the chairman and CEO, so I argue with myself. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's that process. I mean, we've been more on than off. We've worked together for 32 years now, coming up to 32 years. So we know each other. We know each other well. We understand each other. We understand what our relative strengths and weaknesses are. Would you be friends socially or not?

45:12We tend not to socialise together. So that's how you find a way we're working. Yeah, I think it would be too much. You know, we're very happy socialising together, and we have done on many famous occasions. But I think if you spend all day... But you don't live in the same village. We don't live in the same village. We don't live in the same town. You have the same pub. Yeah, yeah. So you need to give each other some space. You do. It would be too much if you were there together for 18 hours a day or whatever. Yeah, no, I think that's what's interesting, because in a business partnership like yours, that is different from a family situation.

45:43I wouldn't say you're social, but you're kind of with each other a lot. Yes. And you sort of discuss business over lunch or whatever. You have some space, but obviously a very longstanding, successful working partnership. Yeah, I know. I've learned a huge amount from Mike over the years, and I like to think he might have learned a few things from me as well. He would say he has. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't still be working together, really, I don't think. I don't think. But I think any valuable relationship is one in which we're learning. Yeah. So you've also developed sort of good partnerships with international businesses, corporations, who've obviously got to know and trust you.

46:23So what's your strategy for negotiating and maintaining those partnerships? How do you sort of develop? For me, it's about trust, particularly when you're dealing with a new technology. People have to trust you as an individual to deliver what you say you're going to, because it's a vision. In all said and done now, we can point at FAA design criteria and all sorts of things to back that up. But at the end of the day, they've got to look you in the eye and believe that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. And I think that's the most important thing. I think for me, what I would call the old school adversarial nature of negotiations is certainly not appropriate in what we're trying to do.

47:03You're looking for common solutions. You're looking to understand the problem that somebody's come to you with, and you're looking to build a solution that will work for them. And they've got to be convinced that you are capable and you understand what their issues are and you're capable of delivering that. That's the way I've always looked at negotiations, not just in the current iteration, but I'm more of a collaborative negotiator than I am an adversarial negotiator. Well, if you want to see people again, that's usually a good idea, isn't it? I mean, it's got to work for both parts. It's got to work, exactly.

47:38Unless it's just a transaction when you walk away and you think, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's sort of zero-sum game. You are, you know, whether it's a customer or whether it's a partner, but you're hoping that somebody's going to join you and build something together and that you're going to provide a solution for their requirements. And I think that's where you gain respect and support. And it may not work out. You may find that it just doesn't work. I mean, I had somebody pick up the phone Monday or email me on Monday. I hadn't spoken to them for probably two and a half years. And they said, oh, we've carried on working on the project and we'd like to sit down and revisit and we may have a need for five, six, seven airships.

48:18If we got into the sort of, well, why aren't you signing up now? Then they probably, you know, they may never have picked up the phone again. So you've got to enter the process, not expecting that somebody's going to jump the first time in the first conversation. So again, it goes back to that element of patience because things take time to evolve. How many conversations would you say in your experience when you've done sales? I think there are stages. First of all, you can tell very quickly whether we're going to be able to offer a solution that's economically viable relatively quickly. Secondly, you can tell if the person's serious or not and they have the capacity to do their side of what they want to do.

49:05I wouldn't like to put a number on a number of conversations. So we've got a mining client, potential client on the mining side. We've been talking to them for three years. Right. And we've had regular communications during that time. We've looked at a number of different projects. We are now one of their approved logistics solutions, but they don't have a project where the airship fits at the moment. So we will carry on talking, and at some point they will come back. But there are other people who you can have half a dozen conversations with, and you know there's a match, and you know that they've got the desire.

49:35The hardest ones are governments and quasi-governmental organizations. So we've been talking to people down in Brazil, and I've been down in Brazil, and there's no doubt there's a massive role for the airship in that part of the world. But things take time. By their very nature, it involves a lot of people. We're not the end project. So, you know, we've got to talk to people and find the project that fits with what the airship can do. You're one of the inverts. We are, yeah. The Swiss Army knife of the air, as I heard. Oh, I like that. So what was your slogan again? No plane, no problem? No roads, no rail, no runway, no problem.

50:09No roads, no rail, no runway, no problem. I like that. Yeah, that's very good. So lastly, if you're a business owner and you're looking out for selecting a business partner or collaborating with larger companies, and you've done both very significantly, what should you be looking out for? What should be on your checklist? That's a tough one. Again, and I don't want to keep coming back and giving the same answer, but I think particularly with any business partner, you've got to go in with a view to forming a long-term relationship. And if you're doing that, there has to be a shared vision. There has to be an idea of shared values.

50:50There has to be a trust. And I think that's particularly important if you're a relatively small company and you're dealing with a much larger company. I mean, there have been times I've felt that my unmentionals have been in advice. You know, you're sitting between one multinational here and you're sitting, you know, next to another one on the other side, and you're the guy in the middle being squeezed. You've got to take a pragmatic view at the same time and understand that that may happen. It's your decision whether you see that through, whether what you're being offered makes sense for you, so you can always walk away.

51:28You have to establish, and we've always been, you know, whatever I've done, whether it was back in the virgin days or or otherwise being interested in working with people who we felt we could work with for a long time um so you're looking for that long-term relationship i like your you said shared vision shared values and trust yeah it's trying to sort of get underneath the bonnet to establish those yeah have we got a shared vision here i suppose or do i trust these people i mean have you got any tips on how to do that you've got to look first and foremost at the person you're dealing with, you know, do you trust that individual firstly?

52:05Yeah. And is that something that's gut feel? I think it is very often gut feel. I mean, you can do a lot of research nowadays on the internet. You can see what people's track records are. You can see what organizations track records are. It doesn't take a lot. You're looking me right in the eye when you say that. I'm wondering if that's what you do. You probably do a lot of it yourself. Yeah, I do. I'm always trying to assess that. It's probably the biggest question in business. Yeah. Do I trust this person? Do I trust this relationship? Exactly. And if you're taking a job, you've got to look at the company you're joining and think, you know, is this somewhere I'm going to be happy in the long run?

52:41And is it somewhere I'm going to be working with people who I can trust and believe in? And it's the same with partnerships. You know, one of our greatest partnerships is with Ron Hyde up in Alaska. And there's a shared vision. There's a mutual respect. We're not experts, world experts and everything. So we have to rely on local partners. If we're going to operate in Alaska, we need people who have operated in Alaska to work with. We're not arrogant enough to turn up in the middle of the Amazon and say, we know all the answers. We need people who know that part of the world, because it's that information that's going to combine with our experience and knowledge and turn into a successful and safe business.

53:23Well, Alaska, Amazon, Kuwait, I mean, they're going to be very, very different, aren't they? Absolutely, yeah. They're going to have very different needs and requirements. So having important partners. But I like your emphasis on shared vision, shared values and trust. And I like the point you made as well about that's the same when you're getting a job. As a person applying to a business, you should, as an individual, establish those things. Is this a trustworthy organization? I had a personal crossroads when I had an offer from Virgin. I had an offer from Muse International. Oh, did you? And one was to stay in London, one was to go to Shropshire, which is what took me up there in the first place and moved up from London.

54:03And that's what it came down to. So you were weighing up those two companies? I was weighing up those two companies and saying, where do I feel at home and where do I really believe? Where do I believe that I'm going to work with people? So you had Branson in one hand and Murdoch in the other. Which one are you going to choose? And which one do you feel you can contribute? And you chose Branson. And I chose Branson. That was a better fit for you. But lots of people choose Rupert Murdoch and have done quite well. Absolutely. That's no disrespect to him. No, not quite. But it's kind of a personal decision.

54:31That's it. Different people fit better in different places. Different footballers play better in different teams. Absolutely. I observe that a lot. Absolutely. You know, some place is better for some than others. That's fantastic. Can you repeat your slogan for me? I'm going to say something different. No roads, no rail. No runway. No runway is no problem. I like that. I like that. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for coming in to talk to me about this. It's been a pleasure. Wonderful vision and venture that you have in development. It's been an absolute pleasure. And I look forward to seeing your airships far and wide.

55:07Maybe I'll get to ride in top of my day. You certainly will. I'd like that very much. And I always ask two questions at the end, which I ask everybody. The first is, there's a clue, you know. what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? That's my first question. Do you want to have a go at that? I think in some ways I've already answered that, and that is you get up in the morning and I get up in the morning because I feel what we're doing as a company and as a team is important and potentially has the ability to transform the way we move things around the world and transform the lives of people that are less fortunate and less well-off than we are.

55:45I'll give an example to that, And it's actually an example that Mike uses quite often because he's himself suffered from cancer. If we take our mobile radiology equipment with RAD8 up to the north of Canada, then we can deliver services like cancer screening. And I sat on a plane and coming back from a remote part of Canada and the lady sitting next to me was pregnant and had some complications in her pregnancy. she'd flown two hours to get to the plane that I was on in a light aircraft to fly two hours to get to Montreal just to have a scan and you think you know these are things we take for granted and that transformative ability is is something that you know if you can't get up in the morning to to work on that then you might not be getting up at all exactly exactly all right well that's good to hear that's good to hear and then my last five years time you know Yeah, I want to ask you, where do you see yourself in five years' time?

56:43We'll have a fleet of airships. A fleet of airships. We'll have a fleet of airships, and we'll be operating those airships and delivering what we've set out to deliver, wherever that is in the world. Fantastic. Well, I wish you every success with that. Thank you. I look forward to seeing the fleet in flight. That would be great. Good luck with that, Mark. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Appreciate it. Good talking to you. Thank you, Mark, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid. Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Mark, and Straight Line Aviation, all links are in the show notes.

57:21See you next time.