45. Should you hire ex offenders? Reed's report is here and the verdict is in! | Alex Head

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership.

0:17Resettling into society after prison is a huge challenge, especially when employers are reluctant to hire people with a criminal record. Too often, talented individuals are overlooked, leaving skills and potential untapped and making them far more likely to re-offend. Today on All About Business, we're unpacking Reid's 2025 Prison Leavers Report, which reveals a significant drop in the number of employers hiring prison leavers since 2013. Joining me is Alex Head, founder and owner of Social Pantry, the UK's leading hospitality employer of prison leavers. to discuss why hiring prison leavers matters and how businesses can approach it.

0:59Well, today on All About Business, I'm truly delighted to welcome Alex Head, who's the CEO and founder of The Social Pantry, which is a catering business. I heard you go, yes. And it's a fabulous catering business based here in London. And one of the things that's very special about it is that you employ lots of prison leavers, Alex. And I'm going to ask you all about that because our company, Read in Partnership, has just produced a report. I have it with me, Employer Attitudes to Employing People with Criminal Convictions. And we were evaluating how attitudes had changed from when we last did a piece of research in 2013 to now in 2025.

1:43five. And concerningly, attitudes have moved against employing prisoners, prison leavers, and people with criminal convictions. And one in five employers say they would not consider someone with a conviction at all. So I've asked you here partly to learn about you and your business, Alex, but partly to learn about what it takes to successfully employ prison leavers. let's start at the beginning how did you get going and what do you do and how's it going perfect well thanks so much for having me so I started social pantry 14 years ago but prior to that when I was young I was had a lot of energy I had been expelled from school and it was over the summer holidays that my mum said well you better start thinking about how you're going to make some money and I'd always had a passion for cooking and kind of being in the kitchen so I actually printed out some clip art posters I don't know if you remember clip art back in the day and I put them around my dad's office and then actually people would phone up with their little sandwich order so I'd make the sandwich jump on my bike and go and deliver them and that was a long time ago and at that point I thought oh so how old were you at this point probably kind of 15 16 so you started out as an entrepreneur as a teenager yes your school career was checkered checkered exactly and you got on your bike literally as Norman Tebbitt would have said exactly to find some work yeah and you know naively at that point i thought what can be so hard about you know you know the hospitality industry and now i know that it's definitely a challenging industry but a brilliant one to be in as well but you started from selling sandwiches to where you are now where you employ i believe yeah exactly a lot of people though how many people at the moment we've got kind of just i think just over 85 full-time team members which is brilliant and there's three pillars to the business there is our events catering so where we're on list.

3:29It's lots of brilliant venues in London from National Portrait Gallery to Roundhouse, Somerset House. And they do all sorts of events from kind of brand concepts to high-end weddings, high net worth individuals. And they do about 30 to 40 events a week. So they are a busy team, lots of logistics, brilliant menu planning, and we create, you know, incredible events. Then we've got our B &I arm to the business, which is office catering. So where employers are wanting to kind of pull back their teams into the office, obviously a way to do that is to provide a brilliant healthy nutritious lunch and that's where social pantry and a number of law firms tech companies and kind of fintech companies where the employers are as an employee benefit giving their team lunches and then we have our standalone sites so we won tower bridge a couple of years ago so we're the exclusive caterer at tower bridge where lots of kind of corporates and private events get hosted in the two walkways the glass walkways above tower bridge so it really is stunning and then we also have mansion house the old bailey so central criminal court where we feed the judges every day in the judges dining room and we also have a couple of cafes there one for the jurors one for the barristers and then we also have a restaurant and a cafe in chelsea design center as well super busy and operating a lot assuming that the prison leavers aren't welcome in the old bailey is that right sadly i actually don't think they are not that they shouldn't be but actually there are rules exactly but we're working on that we're working on that which is good because i remember we employed someone years ago who was a prison leaver we wanted him to go back into prisons to talk to the young prisoners about why they maybe should think about changing their ways.

4:59And the rules changed and he wasn't able to do it anymore. He wasn't able to go back in, which seemed a shame because he was extremely persuasive and compelling. Yeah, it's what you need. Our data, which is interesting, shows that, as I said, one in five employers would immediately reject candidates with criminal convictions. And then compared to 2013, the willingness to hire people with convictions has dropped sharply, it says. So in 2013, 88 % of employers were prepared to hire people with driving offences. That's dropped to 41%. And in 2013, 62 % would hire people with alcohol-related offences.

5:36That's dropped to 27%. And criminal damage has dropped from 40 % to 10%. So there's a real hardening of attitudes, it seems, from our research against employing people with criminal records or convictions. But we know that it's important to give people a second chance because it means they're less likely to re-offend. It's better for society, it's better for them. And when you commit an offence, I don't think that should mean that you're unemployed for the rest of your life. I mean, that's for me not right. You've sort of found your own way to doing this. What made you think, I believe it's 10 years now since you started hiring people.

6:14How did that come to your attention? and why did you do it and what did you learn? Yeah, of course. Well, it started really organically. And 10 years ago, I was volunteering through a charity called Key for Life. And I went into ISIS prison and I met Ruben. And I was incredibly nervous going in. And I was just going in as his mentor. So where's this prison? This prison is next to Belmarsh. So it's a YOI, so Young Offenders Institute. It's called ISIS. And Ruben had been in there, I think, for a GBH offence. And he had just kind of lost his way. And ultimately, the charity were working with him behind bars.

6:44And on release, I was his mentor. So I went in to meet him and that was my first ever prison visit. So this was something you did as a sort of extracurricular thing. Yeah, exactly. And we kind of, you know, I was definitely kind of, you know, a bit apprehensive going in, nervous. But on meeting Ruben, actually that kind of dissipated. We, you know, we chatted, we bonded over giving up smoking and, you know, a few little things that we kind of had in common. And on release, actually, we kind of, you know, I then was his mentor. So I'd meet him for a coffee and, you know, help him with a few things.

7:12Is that a scheme that people can sign up to and become a mentor of someone on release? Yeah, they can. Definitely through the charity Key for Life. Key for Life. If anyone's listening, would like to do that. Yeah, exactly. Brilliant. So that's how I got into it. And then actually at the time, the founder of Key for Life asked me if I'd employ one of the other gentlemen that had been released. So at that time I had eight employees and I got them all in a room and I said, hey guys, how do you feel about working alongside a prison leaver? And they were up for it. So Suhail started and he was quite, at first, he wasn't that reliable.

7:41and I sat down with him after. When you say wasn't that reliable, what do you mean? So he was working as a kitchen porter and he just, yeah, he wouldn't turn up for every shift, which we obviously, you know, couldn't kind of maintain that kind of employment. A, we're a small company and everybody had to pull their weight, but B, I couldn't afford to pay somebody that wasn't there or pay somebody twice. So I kind of said to him, look, this is your opportunity. Either get on board and make the most of it or don't, you know, quite straight down the line. You were direct with him. Yeah, exactly. And actually he kind of went away and had a think And then he came back five days a week and loved it.

8:11And it kind of all went from there. And he stayed with me for three or four years. So he was a brilliant, you know, he was my first prison leaver to employ. And, you know, we learned lots as an employer over that, you know, over that journey. But he was a great success. It's interesting that you asked the others first. I think it's, yeah, I mean, obviously, employing prison leaver, it is a USP of social pantries. Having done it now for a decade, we're definitely quite forward thinking with it. And we have, you know, we have kind of led the way, which is really exciting. But I think it is important, you know, everybody starting Social Pantry, often they cite it as why they want to join Social Pantry in an interview.

8:43But, you know, it's common knowledge you would be working alongside somebody that has spent time in prison for a conviction. When you first did it, you consulted the team. Yeah, totally, because it was a small team. And ultimately, I wanted them to feel comfortable with it as well. I was completely comfortable with offering an opportunity. For me, if probation and the prison server, if they've done their time and the probation is saying this person's going to be released, why wouldn't we offer an opportunity? I also think in the industry, we've got very low barriers to entry in the hospitality industry.

9:12So, for example, they could come having had no kitchen experience and they'll start as, you know, maybe within our logistics team or as a kitchen porter. Or if they've had some cooking experience, they might then start as one of the chefs. But, you know, we can onboard pretty much anybody within the industry. So for me, I suppose it felt like a really good opportunity. And a lot of them, they're charismatic. They've got transferable skills that, you know, they can work hard. They're driven. So why wouldn't I look at that, you know, look at the opportunities that come with employing people that have got convictions?

9:42Are there certain convictions you will not entertain? I'm just thinking in terms of what other people might. Yes. Yeah. So for us, yes, we wouldn't have anybody with kind of a sex offence. And that's just something that I'm personally not comfortable with. And that wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't expect anybody else to be comfortable with that. But, you know, other than that, we have kind of said no in the past when it hasn't quite worked for us or when potentially that kind of first interview hasn't gone well. But but other than that, yeah. If, like me, you run a business or manage a team, you'll know how important it is to hire great people.

10:12Over the last 65 years, Reed has worked with thousands of businesses around the world, helping them to recruit and to grow. This is what inspired us to create Reed.ai, your new AI hiring agent. It's here to save you money, to save you time, and to help you get the right match. Whether you're hiring your first team member or your 50th, Read.ai is here to make it easier. Try it free for 28 days, exclusively available during our beta period. Go to Read.ai and get started. Read.ai, your higher power. So there's a lot here that you've said that I think might be interesting to someone maybe contemplating doing this or wondering whether it's for them or their business.

11:01I mean, the first is the relationship with the probation service and the prison. So do you go into the prison to interview people first before they're released? And how does that work? Yes. And now having done it for a decade, I'm now in touch with a number of prisons and a number of kind of employment boards and prison that, you know, I've got enough contacts that they will phone me. And so I've got somebody coming out and I think they'd be great for Social Pantry. So they're thinking about you before. Yes. And that might be because we've gone in and done an employment session behind bars or we've worked with the prison before or I kind of know them.

11:29There's a relationship there. So, but for somebody looking to do, I would definitely partner with a charity. I think that's what really helped me back in the day. It's kind of, it then means you've kind of got a triangle of support. So you've got your, the charity, the employer, and you've potentially got the probation. And if you're lucky enough, then you've maybe got their family as well. So if it's a potentially, you know, a younger person coming out and then moving back with their family, then actually you've got a lot of touch, you know, you've got some support with it and the charities often will support you as an employer.

11:53So they might kind of bring them on their first day to work, which, which might be needed. they might meet them at the gate and organize for them to go into work the next day so there's not too much of a lag period in between but ultimately you've also got somebody to phone and say oh i'm we've run into a bit of you know if there are any problems you know how should i approach this or or what should i do next help as an intermediary yeah it gives that it just gives you that i suppose it gave me a bit of confidence actually knowing that i had a brilliant charity there to lean on and ask any questions so what charities are particularly prominent in this space in this work for people to contact so key for life were brilliant for us we've also got a charity called switchback who are very good so i think i think they're good and then i suppose it's also yeah i mean i suppose it's probably working out what charity's local i think ultimately for us when the prison leavers i suppose it took in you know for us it works well when they're commute and when they live locally so potentially kind of local charities and local prisons to where the business is based it's definitely what i'd encourage people to kind of to explore so keep it as close as possible yeah i think so i think any employee you know prison leave or not like a manageable commute is really important it also means that their probation service might be close when someone leaves prison i believe they're giving us some of money do you know how much it is i actually don't you don't i don't think it's very much yeah i don't do you have this issue where someone's left prison how quickly do they need to be paid i'm just thinking yeah you've got a monthly payroll of course yeah there's lots of different things really you can do to mitigate that yeah and And there's lots of support that you potentially do need to put in place.

13:24Some prison leavers have somewhere to live, have a family to go back to and can start and they're completely off. And actually some do need a bit more support. So really, as an employer, you've got to be understanding that they're coming out and they may be facing more challenges than your general employee. I think housing can be a bit tricky. So kind of, you know, ensuring that they've got housing is really will also play into the success of the employment. The other the other factor is probation. so ideally you want their probation kind of curfews or meetings to not be in the middle of the day there's been a number of points where I've had to phone a probation office and say actually can we move this person lunchtime exactly probation meeting to the end of the day so really you know that that can be helpful but also they might not have a bank account they might also not know how to kind of travel you know that commute might be a little bit challenging so in the past one of my team members has kind of done that commute with one of the prison leavers to make them feel confident um but yes there's definitely kind of you know if you don't have a phone or a bank account it's quite hard to commute isn't it yes it's really challenging so yeah do that these days it's true so you you mentioned that you know sometimes you'll meet a prisoner or ex-prisoner and decide that person is not for you what do you look for when i mean what's your process do you interview everybody or do you do give them some other forms of assessment how do you decide this one's for us this one maybe not liam heads up all of our hr he's our people director and he's fantastic and before prior to that was sylvia who was great so we kind of i suppose for us yeah it's about meeting them it's about whether we have a role that we feel is suitable it's about whether we have got you know kind of good management and good kind of structure within the kitchen or or you know that's about you what is it about them so for them yes i want them to be determined i want them to kind of i want them to want it how do you test that so really by getting them to start And that's what the challenge is, James.

15:11So you have to kind of just offer the opportunity. So for me, I'll often have gone into a prison, met with a couple of guys behind bars and said, when you leave, come and see me and I'll give you a job. It can be as straightforward as that. So it's like a two week trial or something. Yes. Yeah. It's always paid. They might do a work taster. There's a three day work taster that you can do. And that's through the Key for Life charity. They'll often send us people on work tasters. So that's if you've come out of prison, you might do a work taster with us in the hospitality industry and you might do it in a couple of other industries.

15:36So it gives you a bit of a taste of what the industry will be. yeah and they're really successful but ultimately they just for me they just have to be determined and able to work hard when i kind of started this is you know i don't think you need you don't need any qualifications really are you looking for people skills because i mean a lot of hospitality involves dealing with people they have to be able to kind of listen they have to be able to conduct themselves in the kitchen and they have to be personable enough to work within the team it's also we can upskill them we you know we do it's great if they've got some experience they've worked the prison kitchens or they've worked in the prison cafes but having experience yeah but that isn't essential we can also pop them in as a kp and they get kind of they also get a mentor internally at social pantry which helps but yeah i suppose so you give each person yeah we give them a mentor and interestingly a mentor in a different department so that they've kind of just got a buddy in the business that isn't would that be another prison lever or non-prisoner that won't be a prison lever that's right that'll be somebody else who and effectively they take them for a coffee every month and just say how you doing how you finding it all and then you've obviously got the hr support have you got any people who've joined as prison leavers now in sort of leadership roles or senior management um no not not at the moment no no and i think i'm often asked about kind of what's the success of a prison leaver but really it's case by case for some of them you know staying a couple of years is absolutely brilliant and that's a real success obviously that's fantastic and they you know if they go off to another you know employer within the industry they're brilliant they've learned you know they love the industry they've you know had an opportunity they wouldn't have had previously but also for some of them just kind of I suppose you know coming for three-day work taste is a real success so it really depends and it can it can depend on kind of you know the challenges that they face in their home life as well but yeah success story totally varies I mean every person obviously is different but what sort of issues have you encountered where where it's been less than straightforward and yeah I think housing is probably the biggest one I think I think that definitely can be a challenge how does that affect you though was so ultimately if they haven't got anywhere to live then it's really hard the chances of prison leaver or non-prison leaver kind of committing to a role and and giving their all and being really focused is going to be really challenging if they're kind of sofa surfing or staying with friends effectively they haven't got anywhere to live then that's then that's obviously quite challenging so it's really important that that goes hand in hand yeah really you need housing probation yeah exactly and the support for that is there for prison There is, but if an employer can kind of support, then obviously that's great.

18:00In the past, we have had to kind of support, but there are services in place. It can just be quite slow. I sit on the board of Wandsworth Prison, on the employment board, which is brilliant. And actually housing is often cited as one of the challenges. So I think it's... Have you had any conduct issues you've had to deal with inside the business? Inside the business? No, nothing that's other than kind of, you know... You're late. or you should show up for your shift. Yeah, exactly. So you haven't had any issues with theft or disputes or fights? Now I'm asking this because I think it's important that we understand as business owners what the issues are.

18:36And it sounds like it's been, yeah. Yeah, I mean, ultimately they do need the additional support, as I said, with kind of that, you know, potentially the admin side of it, of helping, you know, a letter for the bank or an employment letter to prove for housing. But really you have to trust them. Like they've come quite a long journey since they've come out of prison. like yeah it's often that i'm asked like you know do i trust them and and you have to for them to kind of go back and land themselves back in prison is is any of them ended up back yeah one what one has for a driving offense but over the years working for you at the time no so but so that's pretty small number yeah exactly yeah a very high success rate of stopping re-offending i genuinely think like with some of these with some of the guys i've met the guys and girls i've met they off if we hadn't offered them the opportunity they genuinely wouldn't have had one so i think we you know we really have made a difference and i can say that kind of quite passionately but it's so important just to offer them the opportunity and then it's there to roll with and run with and be brilliant with or it's theirs to lose and that's like anybody that you employ you know here are the tools we're going to give you what we can we're going to you know also like any employee i suppose you have to kind of keep it interesting so if they start as a kitchen porter we do try and move them out of their role quite quickly they will start on london living wage but it's trying to kind of promote them quite quickly within definitely kind of improves retention um otherwise they can't you know they can get a little bit bored and it's a tough industry to be in if you're kind of pot washing well there's quite high turnover in hospitality exactly exactly so yeah me and my yeah liam actually were chatting the other day about what with one of our prison leavers who actually he started on rossal which is released on temporary license where he would come from prison every day so we worked with the prison and that's towards the end of his sentence he'd be released every day to come and do his job and then go back.

20:18Release on temporary license. Yes. That's a good way to test someone out. Exactly, exactly. So it's really successful. And the Ross Hall candidates we've had have been brilliant. He's now fully released. And actually, we've just moved him within our kitchens. He's just moved to another kitchen just to keep it exciting and varied and keep him engaged. So we work kind of hard to give them every fighting chance. So our report talks about employing people with criminal convictions. Your language is slightly different because you're talking about prison leavers. Could you just explain what your thinking is here and how that's different?

20:47Of course, of course. So Wandsworth is a prison that we work with and they are a remand prison. So a lot of, yes. So for example, somebody could be on remand at Wandsworth prison and then be released, but they've actually gone to trial and been found not guilty. So they are leaving prison rather than being an ex-offender. So we kind of, you know. They have many of the same challenges. I mean, yes, ultimately they've spent time in prison, so they've lost their job. they've potentially lost housing they've lost any support they've had time away from their families so yeah if you know spending any length of time in prison definitely presents and you also mentioned that you were on the employment board at once what is an employment board in a prison and how do people get involved with that if they're interested yeah so i um so yeah the employment board so sitting on the board is a number of um kind of key key employees at the prison um and then there are some other other business owners like myself or kind of business leaders so we've kind of got an i'm obviously representing the hospitality industry and then there's a construction company um and these are all from a local area aren't they yes yeah they are actually and and they're brilliant ultimately we will try and work out how we can kind of um make prisoners aware when they come into their journey at wandsworth that there are there is opportunity there's kind of training within the prison and on release there is opportunity and support there so it might be that there's employment workshops that we would want to get them involved in we also will support by reaching out to other businesses to see if they've got opportunity to employ or i mean they recently had like pwc went in and did an employment day we might kind of run like a cv writing workshop but we're there just to kind of support and advise connect um what are the what are the skills they can learn you said there was some training opportunity yes yeah so there's interview techniques which is really important there's cv training um and for often for some of them they kind of you know haven't potentially ever had a job interview or ever haven't ever kind of written a cv um but it's also finding out what they're passionate about i know that there's computing as well and then there's obviously kind of barber radio there's so so these employment boards exist in multiple prisons i understand so so other people in other parts of the country could get involved yes exactly yes um and i think i could be wrong but um james timpson was kind of heading up the employment board and his it's now in a number of prisons i need to kind of check this out but i think he started it he's now obviously an mp um and he's the prisons minister business exactly so yeah so he's he should be all over that yeah so i think now there's a number of employment boards and hopefully it's kind of connecting and supporting also linking the charities supporting the charities with the prison because it's interesting when your journey was sort of meeting someone someone else being suggested to you and it's when you meet people that maybe some of these sort of barriers start to break down.

23:32Totally. I honestly would challenge people that were kind of, you know, with your stats, I'd challenge the people that were saying, no, that one in five employers, I would challenge them to come in and come to prison and meet some of these, you know, some of these, in some cases, incredibly young men and actually not want to offer them an opportunity on release. Like for some of them, it's, yeah, it's definitely been like a challenging start to life and it's inevitable that they potentially would end up in prison. So it's quite. So it's really important to be given a second or even third chance, I think.

24:04Yeah. Everyone has that right, I believe. And yeah, just come and see. It's a really good sort of message. Yeah, definitely. Because you'll be surprised, I think is what you're saying. Yeah, completely. And actually you might, and lots of them are charismatic. Like, you know, some of them have got kind of brilliant personalities which work in some roles and, you know, some of them are, you know, know incredibly skilled whether it comes to cooking or you know other industries like you know these people have got skills and they're transferable skills that could well could well work within within businesses on the outside so i'm just looking at the the report here um percentage of employers who have had representatives do one of the following only 22 percent have visited a prison there you go so four out of five really have not visited a prison um been to a prison event or open day just 12 there we go so this is really suggesting that you're onto something here work with a probation officer to support resettlement 19 yeah so there's a lot more that could be done just by being a little bit more curious yes yeah there's a brilliant charity called only a pavement away um who do fantastic work with kind of obviously the homeless but also prison leavers they're they're an incredible charity but you know they're kind of um mantras that we're all only one pavement away from actually being on the wrong side of you know the wrong side of it and i think when you yeah we yeah i think when you kind of you know realize that actually offering opportunity prevents re-offending and prevents you know if they have made you know if they have kind of done their time behind bars you actually want to prevent it being really impactful for the rest of their lives why wouldn't we offer opportunity just to kind of stop the stop the cycle but i i do think it's it's in challenge it's really challenging for them to find work and and i feel like yeah businesses of any size if we can do it as a small business um you know with with tight margins and limited hr resource then then the bigger businesses definitely can so so to to get that right you're listening i'm hearing you give these people a mentor yes you give them a trial yes so if it's right for you right for them are there any other key things that people need yes i think you need to have the understanding that um that yes i mean i suppose for us we're we're yeah we might for some of them that they start and they they they crack on and there's no issues but if somebody potentially hasn't come in for kind of a day or two rather than kind of saying you know where on earth were you it's like do you know great well done for coming back do you want to kind of you know what really that's what you're saying definitely because not where the hell have you been no because otherwise i've changed my management style because i've learned you coming back i like that you've got a really because i've got no understanding of what it's like to you know what they're what they're battling and a lot of them have got you know they come out and they you know they've got family pressures they might have a number of children and actually them adjusting back in they might well have been battling quite a bit actually and and actually kind of them realizing that you're on their side i'm not probation i'm i'm not you know i'm there to kind of support and help and if they're going to be brilliant and do a good job then i will support so i think there's the expectation of i suppose you have to just you know maybe that gentle approach you know it's important surprised when you say that i think it's just being like a caring considerate employer that you kind of you're taking the time to be like you know what you know do you you know can you tell us exactly why you didn't come in and often there it's really valid reasons that are sensible yes yeah and does that improve over time you find that things settle down and they sort of get into a routine yeah they do yeah yeah so so that sort of understanding is really that's the third element and i feel like if i was an employee i would and i was coming into you i would rather being shouted out for why i wasn't there i'd want a chance to say like actually do you know what this is a bit more than i thought it would be or you know it's just having that slight bit of empathy so i think that that that's important um yeah i think shouting at anyone's never a good idea that's only going to get the worst result but kitchens are notoriously uh yeah i was about to say we have like sharp elbow places no i've worked in some really tough kitchens before i started social pantry and then we have really like we call them kind of non-shouty kitchens but they're very calm we've got apps you know non-shouty yeah non-shouty like there's no kind of egos in there like it's it's really calm you know our events kitchen they're doing a churning out 40 events a week you know that's pretty serious business so it's kind of um with some an incredible exec chef who's incredibly experienced and intelligent um a brilliant team good communication you know and it's organized and it's and it's a great place to work and we've got you know female-led kitchen you know like we have actually without intentionally we've got you know one one of our main kitchens is female-led so you know but it's a really calm main kitchens oh we've maybe i've maybe so it's not a female-led thing that makes it non-shouty no but it's also you know it's it's great that you know it does potentially you know it leads to quite a calm calm environment but yeah we've maybe got six or seven kitchens um with different numbers of team members in each but yeah you've obviously set the tone from the top as the founder yeah this is how you want it to be i mean you've said that clearly yeah and i've worked in some kitchens where i was so it was horrendous going to work it was terrifying being 18 and going to work in these yeah pretty scary environments just chefing and it yeah it was it was intense and i you know it That's how you learn.

29:31You learn how not to do it. Yeah, it was horrible. And actually, so for us, it's making sure that we're really approachable and that people can ask the right questions. And if, you know, the line managers understand. We've also done a fair bit of training with our team on how to manage a prison leaver as well. But often the mentor and their line manager will meet the employee behind bars if we can. So that's quite a nice. But if you're super busy and you've got a whole lot of events, you've got to prepare everything, and then someone doesn't show up, that's annoying isn't it yes and we're quite no nonsense with it so we can be empathetic thanks for coming back but i mean how many times do you have to say oh so we um what we do is we allocate it's called a charity place at social pantry we have our core our core rota and then in addition are the charity places so if you were leaving prison you would slot into one of my charity places which means you're in addition to budget so we we commit that salary it's not going to sink exactly i'm not going to be working five hours later that evening because you haven't showing up yeah so i learned that by trial and error that's what i learned so that's important to stress so you create a bit of extra capacity exactly because ultimately the team can't be you know it can't be the team's problem doesn't that add to your costs yes it does yeah and that's why it's that's why it's great to get you know you're doing this early yes yeah exactly exactly yeah so we create three charity places um and and then i suppose it yeah sometimes they'll slot into a rotor role within three months or maybe six months but once they've shown that they're reliable and so what so the charity places for a defined period of time yeah it's just a defined budget ultimately that we kind of yeah will allow because we don't want the team to be affected by by anyone that potentially looks like they're going to be brilliant and then isn't well that that sort of takes the tension out of it doesn't it yeah exactly exactly because the others can be supportive rather yeah rather than having to carry the burden yeah and then sensible mentors as well internally as well yeah that's really that's really helpful because there's a number of things there that i think if applied together make it much more likely that this will be a successful experience and i think don't be scared of it like ultimately meet the person you know under you know understand you know i suppose the challenges with it speak to other employers like like you know like us at social pantry link into a charity and they'll most likely be linked to a charity anyway that when they're coming out understand their probation or if they're on tag and um and then you know if they're on tag yes means one time i was we had a staff party and one of the boys was like i have to go and i said is it because you're on tag and he said no it's because this party's really dull and i thought oh that's what i knew i had to allocate more budget so i was like oh Oh, okay.

32:08So you're straightforward. Allocate more budget to the party. Yeah, so you can tell. So when you say on tag, you mean he's tagged with a... Yeah, they've got a curfew or... He needs to be at home at a certain time. Yeah, exactly, at home. So, yeah, and I think just enjoy the diversity within your team. And, you know, you'll know, I suppose, like most employers, you'll know employment, you'll know if it's going to work out quite quickly. So you've been doing this for 10 years. Would you say it's improved your business? Definitely. I think initially how's it helped well initially I wouldn't mention it to anybody because we were just trying to win business and you know in a competitive market we were just trying to create I was just trying to create a brilliant hospitality company and now actually I'm really proud that it's one of our USPs and it contributed to our B Corp it's definitely something with B Corp it's definitely something that we put front of center when we do tenders so fantastic that our tenders you know for the old Bailey or Mansion House you know their government-run tenders that we would have absolutely put that usp you know you know up there with with the other important selling points and um it's great that people are kind of open you know they see it as a value for sure help you win business it has yeah you grow your business yeah definitely it's not been the only reason but but it but it has helped and actually that's just turned out yeah i didn't embark on that mission because of that i just did it because i'm not suggesting you did no no no but as in it's quite a nice ROI basically.

33:29But it's worth people understanding that it's been net positive. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely been positive. It's not just been a bit of sort of ESG on the side. No, no. And most of the team, if you join Social Franchise, you'll go and visit a prison within a year of being with us. And they find that really... Everyone who works with you. Yeah, they find that really eye-opening. And then they enjoy being a mentor. What do they say about that? So the last time I took some of our event planners, So these girls obviously kind of plan incredibly high end events and brilliant events. Lots of weddings and parties.

34:03Yeah, exactly. And in some incredible London venues and then for them to be kind of, I took them to Felton prison. We used to, we ran a cafe there for a year. So one of my, we put in, we paid the salary of a team member behind bars that worked for social pantry and we opened up their staff hub. So they would work with the inmates. And yeah, so yeah, it was brilliant, brilliant kind of initiative and it's still running now. Um, so yeah, so they came to see Feltham. I think they were, yeah, I suppose like anybody can have quite shocked at how young they are. So how young are they? So Feltham, they've got side A and side B and side A, if I'm correct, um, are really quite young, um, boys that are all in for very long sentences.

34:43So they all just go straight onto adult prison. So they might be 15 or 16 and in for, you know, 30 years, 30, looking at 30. So that's really incredibly sad. but side b is where we had the um the staff hub um and the lock the lock mess as they as the prisoners named it and they um the lock mess yeah yeah so these are people who are going to be released they're going to be released exactly and the idea was on release that they would come and work at social pantry um and yeah we had we had one gentleman that did that which was great but the girls i think they yeah i mean they having not seen a prison before um you know i suppose it's always quite eye-opening but meeting meeting the guys you know i suppose they come out having yeah i suppose probably wanting to help is the biggest you know the biggest thing these boys are quite engaging you know they want to kind of change their lives they're determined you know it's incredibly sad seeing some of them in there i mean not condoning not saying they shouldn't be or condoning their crime at all but i think understanding that the challenges that the boys have behind bars potentially makes you yeah understand you know your employee better on release yeah and you know once a sentence has been served exactly exactly they're going to be released yeah quite they're going to be in society so it's better i think that they're doing something yeah we can definitely keep busy yeah exactly yeah um yeah so i'm just going to have a look at some more of the sort of details of this report which i think is concerning because i mean it seems like for every category people have become less tolerant of yeah i wonder of giving people an opportunity and i don't know why why do you think that is i mean why is it over since 2013 to now that companies have become more averse to yeah giving people a second chance i mean i can only kind of talk from our experience and definitely for us as an industry like it's it's quite challenging so something like you know where it's become more expensive to employ people that then limits our kind of charity places that we can open up and the amount of people we can employ so when it's more expensive now to hire people exactly yeah so people aren't really you know with you know recent budget it is incredibly difficult so no i know so you're talking about here let's be very specific the employers national insurance which then was made on lower paid people especially has made it harder yeah definitely and and costs have gone up across the board it's not just our the cost of our team it's the cost of all of our you know brilliant suppliers have put their cost up so if the landlord you know there's there's costs across the business that have then increased as a result of it and that does that you know that that does have so one thing you would say is because business is under more pressure yeah there's less room for these charity places yeah i would say from my experience that's exactly why or maybe taking a risk where you wouldn't yeah or haven't kind of you know haven't got capacity to potentially kind of put the right systems in place or the right budget or the right people to kind of you know support it and actually maybe yeah maybe there just isn't that another thing we noticed is there's a lot more um employees using the dbs checks or disclosure and barring service checks which is a way of yes you know asking about somebody if you're about to hire them and it seems like the number of jobs that require those checks has grown in number yeah is that something you you're aware of or no not so i suppose you don't do those checks do you yes you're not worried about that yeah um yeah it says that dbs checks have become you know they should not be used as a pass fail mechanism so i suppose people are doing these checks yes comes up someone's got a record of some form and they fail yes well it shouldn't be saying they should provide opportunity for employers to appropriately assess and manage any risk so that's saying it might be the report suggesting in our reflections that that should be the beginning of a conversation, not you're off the list.

38:39Yeah. So I suppose it's important to know what the offence was, as you say. Yeah, for us, we do, yeah, we do do checks. Yeah, we also don't disclose. Yeah, so for us, sometimes it's very clear when they're a prison leaver when they start, but sometimes it's not. So you don't tell the team? No, we don't tell the team. It's all private, personal. And it'd be down to you whether to tell the team if you wanted to. As the prison leaver. Yeah, as a prison leaver. and because really it's a fresh start for them but also the crime we wouldn't disclose there's like a nuclear team at social pantry they'd know what the crime was so the hr group yeah exactly exactly and you know to check that yeah i think for our insurance we're not allowed to employ people with arson that's another one yeah so yeah so that's a crime that we would we would say no to but um yeah but we kind of i suppose keep it confidential because ultimately do you feel Do you find that the prison leavers do share it?

39:30It totally depends on the character. So some do and some don't. Yeah, some are completely fine with it and actually some you just want to crack on and put it all behind them and don't really want other people to know or to be asked any questions. Years ago, a colleague of mine who I was extremely fond with, he told me that he'd been in prison for football hooliganism. Oh. How did you feel? well he'd been in the birmingham zulus or something and and and i was sort of amazed yeah but no i mean it didn't make me think any of him because he'd done an extremely good job for us and this was in his youth and he made a mistake yeah so they so that's somebody that's really when he told me this you know he was a middle-aged man yeah and um yeah so i just thought it was interesting yeah so whoever hired him in our business he said knew this yes i didn't know it i was the managing director whatever i was at the time i didn't know but he the people who hired him knew this he'd had the conversation and they'd said okay just come in and get on with it and give you it and it worked really well and he he was in our sales function and won us masses of business yeah because as you said some of these people are very charismatic yeah completely so um so he was one of those some of them have been very good salesmen in their you know drug careers you know they're not you know there are lots of crimes that involve selling yeah that's true exactly you know some they're definitely transferable skills is what you're talking about here yes i went into the kitchen recently and one of them one of our team members was kind of weighing out these arancini and i was like oh how are you getting on with that he's like i can use scales don't you worry you knew that about me i was like of course sorry i forgot that you were in for some quite impressive drug dealing yeah well i remember talking to someone so yes but obviously not i like that but that does make you laugh and you just think yeah no you're right there was me thinking of you know i remember talking to someone who just reminded me who we'd found a job working on railways um in maintenance crew at night and he'd been an armed robber and serious you know robber and so i said i'd said to him how are you finding working nights and he said well i've always work nights and he went on to be really became the manager of this team so yeah i think to make your point yeah such good examples that actually if you give somebody that second chance then they can just roll with it and they can have a you know successful career well that that's um so positive so where next for your business what do you oh gosh where next so we um we're on a nice little growth trajectory at the moment which is um which is yeah exactly so we um yeah most recently won the old bailey and mansion house contract so yeah we're gonna put our hat in the ring so the mansion house is for the lord mayor of london yes he lives there yeah so we um so what do you do for them or it's a events i suppose exactly yes we won a five-year contract we um congratulations thank you and didn't you just win an award can't you tell us a little bit about this So what was your award?

42:37Go on, please share, Alex. Who did you meet just recently? We did. We won a King's Enterprise Award. A King's Enterprise Award. Yes. And we won it for offering opportunity. Yeah. So which fell within their sustainability category. And actually we were only one of two businesses in London that won. One of only two. Yeah. So there was a lot of opportunity for other businesses to win the King's. But it's a UK based award. Right. And there was the categories of sustainability, innovation and international trade. And we obviously sit in the sustainability category. And I think there's 100 winners from each category, but obviously only two in London, which is great.

43:16So it was really nice to be recognized. So you met the king? I did meet the king. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Coming. Yeah. Not that recently. I had a baby and you had to go on your own. So, yeah. So off I went to Windsor Castle. To Windsor Castle. Yeah. Have you ever been there? Yeah. A long time ago. yeah it's amazing it's wonderful so it was brilliant it was really good um and yeah had a nice chat with the king and there was a few other royals there's princess anne and edward was there and it was great yeah exactly there's a whole crew it was fantastic so yeah we chatted about um yeah about it it was great so the so the king's enterprise award is every year is it just i mean yes i think we went to yeah i mean do it's i you know i think it's it's great awardness you know we're privileged alongside some other brilliant businesses um that got awarded yes so i think we retain it for five years i think i could be wrong oh did you get a sign we got a plaque and then that got presented to us yesterday um at hq which was great so we had a little you know celebration of it um in battersea where we've got kind of our catering units and warehouses but it was great it was really nice to be recognized for actually because um yeah we haven't deservedly so yeah i think what you're doing is really positive could i ask the people who join i mean one of the things in our survey is is that people with previous convictions often when they get a job show more commitment more resilience and and are often more trustworthy which might surprise people than the sort of average person is that something you've found or yeah i mean ultimately when they join social we have to give them the level of trust um and i think yeah i mean we haven't kind of had any had any real issues with our prison leavers or or with our with our team members but i think maybe giving them that trust rather than them kind of having to earn it as such i think definitely can have worked for us so there's various you know various things that they're exposed to but i think yeah james simpson actually did a brilliant visio where he um he is on YouTube and he talked about all of his prison leavers.

45:24Obviously, it's the key cutting business and they have prison leavers that operate the cash and they show them exactly how you could or how they know, I think is what he said, how they know if they were to take money out or they show them how they could do it. So they're like, you know, if you were to do it, this is how you do it. And actually by giving them the trust or showing them how, actually it's that slight reverse. Why would they lose the opportunity they're being given for something so minimal or so small? And also they, you know, sometimes they've come on such a long journey that to go back a number of a number of stages would really would would would you know would really cause issues or you know either put them back behind bars so that's underlying the point that they often are more trustworthy yes i i mean yeah i think i'd have to kind of ask ask the team i know that when we surveyed our team they really enjoyed working alongside prison leavers and i you know and you haven't seen anything to suggest they're less exactly yeah sort of yeah baseline yeah yeah okay one of the one of the things i've often thought is prison leavers might be what well considered to be self-employed because you're not then having to get a you know someone saying yeah you're okay i mean you can just set yourself up as a business yeah um what do you think about that so for us they start on payroll we had a lovely a lovely guy who actually when he first got paid thought he'd been robbed and i had to say no this is tax and i said that's tax and that's what keeps some people behind bars like okay i get it so like well that's one view you know i mean it's not voluntary so he kind of um you know that for him he was kind of like right okay i i you know i wasn't thinking of the difference being payroll and being sort of a contractor i was just thinking starting your own business you know you know sort of starting a catering company like you did or why not starting a carpet cleaning business or a window cleaning business all sorts of things yeah that's quite a gives people other more options totally totally and i feel like i feel like if so many of them are ambitious it's just brilliant and i you know sometimes you know people have started with us and then gone on to do their own thing and and it is brilliant ideally they've kind of got the right experience and you know can can do it successfully otherwise it's probably quite challenging but yeah very good so So what message, just to sort of pull things together here, Alex, what message do you want to give our listeners or entrepreneurs, business owners or maybe HR managers to consider here?

47:46Yeah. So I think it's really important that, yes, that you at least explore it and at least think about it, not only to kind of reduce reoffending rates in society, but also to offer an opportunity to often quite driven and charismatic and hardworking, hardworking people that need the opportunity. It also diversifies your workforce in a brilliant way. And then, you know, fine, if you want to do it to tick the ESG box, then you can also do it for that as well. But I think if you went on the journey, you would genuinely enjoy it and it would give you a totally different perspective, which is often very beneficial.

48:23But Social Pantry are going to launch actually later this year, which is very exciting, a networking kind of group where we ideally will kind of pull together charities and HR teams and our experience as well. So for any businesses, yeah, that kind of want to understand a bit more, then come along to one of our sessions and we will kind of introduce you to charities and network and other businesses that are doing it and other businesses that are doing it brilliantly. Because I think if we're all in it together and all trying, then we genuinely can, you know, we can have more impact, enjoy the journey together and, you know, make a difference.