58. Behind the doors of Downton Abbey: Managing the 1,300-year-old Highclere Castle | Lady Carnarvon

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to run and evolve a 1300 year old heritage estate in a modern world? Today on All About Business I'm joined by Lady Carnarvon, the custodian of High Clear Castle, best known globally as the home of Downton Abbey.

0:42We'll be exploring how she manages heritage, hospitality, farming, restoration and brand reputation and how she's transforming High Clear into a sustainable business for the future. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Fiona Lady Carnarvon. You're the eighth Countess of Carnarvon and best known as the Lady of Highclere Castle. The Lady of the Real Downton Abbey. The Lady of the Real Downton Abbey. I couldn't have said it better myself. And obviously, that was a hugely popular television show. But you also run a very substantial business at Highclere. And I remember listening to the radio about two or three winters ago, and you were on, and it was in December, talking about some of the things you had coming up.

1:26And I thought at the time, this is a serious enterprise and you're definitely a serious entrepreneur. So I'm delighted you've come in to talk to me today. And for those people listening who only really know Highclere through Downton Abbey or as a result of Downton Abbey, can you tell us a little bit, to begin with, Fiona, about, sort of describe the business, if you like, as it is today. What's there? What are you managing? Well, today, Highclere is really a hospitality heritage business. so we employ about 60 full-time people and in the summer another 100 150 part-time people who help us over our busy period plus on the farm or extra pairs of hands in the garden a mixture of interns you know all of whom obviously paid to our probably more senior members of staff who were in their late 80s i'm not sure whether anyone's 90 yet but it's the whole gamut of the community And it's about welcoming people and making them happy.

2:21We are cooking and feeding 1 ,200 people a day for 60 to 70 days a year, which is quite a lot. And managing the general public and seeing what goes wrong. So planning and preparation, that is at the heart of it. And business strategy. And then out of that, we have guided tours. So we have people at High Clear for probably for three or four days of every week and more in the summer. throughout the year three or four days of every week throughout the year so you're running much more in the summer almost continuous so yeah we're very busy now with christmas right so and what what are the main sort of activities running into christmas that you would well i started doing a big uh christmas offering at high clear before beforehand it was more about charity i used to do some charity days then i sat next to a trustee from plenum and he said um Fiona, half Blenheim's prophets come from Christmas.

3:20So I thought, cool, blimey, right, get going girls. So I ended up writing a book, Christmas at Highclere. And from that, peeling off the different events that make Christmas special. So there's obviously food, and there's carols, and there's evening parties and daytime parties. So just trying to offer about six different events. And then by complete chance, I ended up meeting a man called Gerald Dickens who's the great grandson of Charles Dickens and he comes for two days just the 18th and 19th of December every year and he performs a Christmas carol it's a one man stage play I want to see that already Charles Dickens is great grandson and it is so special he comes down the stairs he looks just like you'd imagine Charles Dickens and he bangs his gong not quite like that saying Marley is dead and off we go but it's just entirely magical and i think everyone who sits there you know as the light glimmers down i don't like turning the lights on and then we all go for supper afterwards right it is entirely wonderful imagine this is a sellout is it actually it's the most expensive event it's the fewest people it sells out almost within a week i mean i'm trying to be like glastonbury i was thinking sell out before anything happens so people queuing up that That sounds fantastic.

4:44It is. And when you said you were talking to a trustee from Blenheim, you mean Blenheim Palace. Oh, I mean Blenheim Palace. Where they have the big Christmas fair, isn't it? There's a huge fair there. They have huge events. I saw a big Ferris wheel and thing going when I drove past. And I find that quite scary because there's an outlay of millions, which I don't have. We don't have any trust fund. We don't have any, obviously, pot of gold. We stand there in our cotton socks at the start of each month, thinking how we're going to bring in enough revenue to pay, firstly, the salaries, and then secondly the other variable and and or fixed costs depending where we are at the start of in the month of the year so it's just Jordi and I are trying to be entrepreneurial but having said that again it's about planning and preparation so I will put out my Christmas tickets to sell in April of each year and they would have been sold out by September then I see if I can squeeze a few more people in I have something called Friends of High Clear which is designed to take people behind the scenes and I reserve some tickets for them as well.

5:44So there's layers of different ways of entertaining people and having some Christmas teas. And one of our team dressed up as Father Christmas. So some people can have tea with Santa Claus, which is always popular. But we're not so much a children enterprise. We are slightly older. It's when the children aren't around, having tea with your granny, your sisters, your cousins. People sometimes book the same day every year. it's magic right so you mentioned behind the scenes tours what's available for people who want to see behind the scenes so friends of high clear was a is a different enterprise many again large stately homes have various charities to try to raise money to support them and i looked into that james but it seems to take more money to more lawyers to set up various charitable bodies than to actually just actually sadly just work.

6:38So I thought having investigated it, I would rather do something which gave people some value. Friends of Heigler came about because I went to a Tutankhamun exhibition and they kindly showed me round out of hours. It was utterly magical. And then they said, would you like to sit down and have some 3D glasses and have a 3D experience, whatever it was called. Tutankhamun. And I said... Where was this? This was in London about just before COVID, actually, literally about a week or two before. And I thought, well, not really, but I must be polite and say yes. So that would be lovely. Yes, please. So I went and sat down in the chair and put on these 3D glasses.

7:20And I was blown away. I couldn't remember anything else that I'd seen for the whole day. So I thought, great, well, perhaps that's what I can set up at Highcliff. so I managed to find a team who could do 3D filming for me and create these virtual reality videos each of which takes sort of 10 days to download it's quite a complicated edit and nor can you edit things together it's one take at a time or you hear the moaning as I come out because I've got it wrong and and then so we have uploaded those I have friends on Friday we have special events we have a book club so we have different levels of subscription subscription platform to raise money already from heritage hospitality to sort of virtual reality i mean it's an interesting job and would you explain why you're interested in toot and carmen because that's a very a very important part of the story it's downton abbey and toot and carmen in one home highclere castle so we are so lucky and jordie and i created an exhibition to celebrate the discovery of Tutankhamun because my husband Geordie's great-grandfather discovered the tomb of Tutankhamun in 1922 with Howard Carter.

8:35So it was almost beyond belief what they found and sadly Geordie's great-grandfather died. He effectively gave his life when he was out in Egypt. So we're left with the legacy in what he found but also the very important fact that nothing from Tutankhamun came back to Highclere. We have the discovery, the story of the discovery, but everything stayed in Cairo. And luckily for us, he wrote in a letter to Howard Carter, I think everything should stay in Egypt. So we have the story, the discovery, the resilience, the passion and obsession for this extraordinary ancient world, but also in today's world, the acknowledgement that he was Egyptian.

9:21So that is part of Highclere's story. And he was the most famous Carnarvon. And then, of course, we had Downton Abbey come along. So we have two planks to our marketing or ways to entice or beguile people to come to Highclere. Failing that good food. And so those are really the two planks of my marketing, what I'm trying to share. But equally, Highclere, there's been a home at Highclere since 749 AD, or those are my earliest written records. And I have landscape records dating back to Neolithic times. So I really like the fact I can walk in time for 6 ,000 or 7 ,000 years and I can share that again with visitors, with guests, with friends of Highclere.

10:07Just, I think, to give us a sense of continuity. And if you can look back sometimes, perhaps you can have hope for the future because at the moment I think it is a very troubled world and many of the values and the cultural values have been thrown up in the air and we're all wondering where they're going to land. So I think history and heritage can just help give you some time out and forget all about everything else. And that's a big draw for people coming to visit you, that they can do that. I can see the appeal of that instantly. So Fiona, obviously Downton Abbey has been a huge story and it's been more than a decade now.

10:43Were there any pressures associated with this, association with Highclere and Downton Abbey and the filming and the journey you've been on together? I think the first thing is to accept that Highclere is also Downton Abbey and to embrace it. So that's absolutely fine. I think three to 400 million people around the world have watched it. And there's not a TV platform in the world which hasn't had Downton Abbey. So it's looking at that on the one side. And on the other side, they don't actually pay as much money as the location fee. so what can we do for Highclere to make the best of Downton Abbey so it's merging the two together to make it work for Highclere and respecting the dreams of people who have loved Downton Abbey and making sure that we try to live up to them when they come to Highclere Castle but my all my marketing is around Highclere Castle my Instagram is around Highclere Castle so I have got that as a fence between Jordi and myself and what questions we're asked because I don't want Jordi and I to be you know interrogated about what we have for breakfast we're talking about our home and my books therefore also provide another fence if you like because I love to do interviews about them but it's about the book rather than Jordi and I which is really great So Highclere Castle is your brand.

12:09Downton Abbey is obviously someone else's. NBCUniversal. You're also NBCUniversal. I mean, you just said three to four hundred million people watched it. When you embarked on the first sort of bit of filming, did you have any idea that it would be that big? No, we wondered if anybody would watch it at all. It was a very brave step, leap by Peter Fincham, the CEO of ITV, and by Carnival, which was Julian Fellows and Gareth Neame. And Julian Fellowes was a script writer, obviously, the ideas man in some ways behind it, who has steered it and shaped it, but couldn't have done it without the other man involved.

12:49And then PBS in America. So it has become this kind of monstrous rolling circus. And we're actually a small part of it. But we like to think we're quite an essential part of it. I think you are quite an essential part of it, which is not a bad place to be in any future negotiation. So good for you. What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10 % of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea, and Novo Nordisk share the same Philco identity.

13:35These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty, and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now at karmacapitalism.org. Being a good business is good business. You've written a book, Fiona, it's just recently published called A Year at Hike. It's no thank you. I try and write a book every two years, and the latest one. You do one every two? Yeah. Okay, that's very impressive. It's certainly beaten me. No, I don't think it's a competition. It's just if you have a publisher, they say, what's next then? Otherwise you lose your place.

14:13So let's talk about a year at Highclere. How did you frame that? Well, I thought I've written history books. I've written cooking books and gardening books. You know, you go around thinking how to share this extraordinary home. And then I thought as the third film, the grand finale was coming out, it might be quite fun to share life today at Highclere and some of the stories because when I go out people say have you got any ghosts I say yes or what's it like we have more of that in a minute or entertaining royally or what's it like to live with a film crew so I thought I would create a book looking at the seasons of the year and devote different chapters to pull out and highlight what what life was like in that month so you know in March March was when the film crew first turned up in 2010.

15:02So I thought I would write about living with a film crew and hearing the gravel crunch under the tyres as the first of the white vans arrived with masses of equipment on it. Because that's really what you are. You're a white van lorry car park for months on end. When you said the noise on the drive, I was visualising a sort of Bentley rolling in, as you would see in the film. not a white van which is what your experience was an arctic lorries yeah so that's the reality that is the reality so that sounds like hard work you know it we go you was but you sort of get into a rhythm of it and it's a 13 hour day with 11 hour filming and from which they'd hoped to get four and a half minutes for television so i as 11 hours of film yes so as a i'm a chartered accountant by training and I've been auditing business and I just think you're not going to invest in that business because it's completely bonkers but um nevertheless it makes a lot of people happy and it clearly worked and works right I mean it was a hugely successful series and then the final film has just come out recently so is that is that is Downton Abbey done well I just thought Harry Potter's probably got to number 19 now so um no comment is the answer okay well we'll wait with with baited breath so so what else what else is featured in your year well that was spring and then i've obviously i've got far too many dogs so that was how many dogs do you have i have eight at the moment right what breed are they a mixture of labradors and spaniels right and two little spaniel puppies oh my god so this morning they were um looking at themselves They'd never seen themselves in a mirror before.

16:52So, oh, my goodness. They just bring such light and life. So you're going to keep the puppies? Oh, yeah. I've just got them. So, yes. Oh, you've just acquired them. They haven't just been bought. They were a surprise to my husband. So I didn't warn him. So I thought that was easier. So that was another chapter. And then I wrote about nature and nurture because we're a farm. We've been farming here for, I don't know, well, obviously thousands of years. there has been farming at Highclere. And my husband's been at Highclere since 1677, which means he looks pretty good. But his family has been farming there for a few hundred years.

17:31And it's very challenged. The farming is very challenged. Oh, my goodness, yeah. At the moment. I mean, anyone watching Clarkson's Farm would obviously realise that. But you read a lot about that in the news as well. What are the main challenges? is uh the the fixed asset value of all the equipment you need to farm and tread as lightly as possible on this earth to farm efficiently is way in excess of what you'd normally invest into a business with its turnover and you'd only do it for the long term and handing on to the next generation which is the whole thing at the moment so it just it's a i find it fascinating and I love it and I want us to grow food really well for us all to eat locally and seasonally James but it's really hard to keep going and money from the castle now is what we'll use to support the farm because despite the fact we have 2 ,000 arable acres and sheep we are losing money so goodness knows what is happening to everybody else I mean and it's things like you know no one's buying or investing in new sprayers, for example.

18:44So the spraying company from which we bought our sprayer has gone bankrupt. So we've now got no spare parts for the sprayer which we've got. There are so many small challenges all along the food chain, if you like, as farmers today are not investing in the future because they don't think there is a future. And actually, we need to grow trees. Georgie and I have planted 22 ,000 trees over the last two years but we also needed to eat. So one chapter is about nature and nurture and nurturing nature because that's what makes a successful farm and I have written about that for various newspapers as well including the Telegraph.

19:24Not to sort of preach but just to share some of why it's so important and for you know the old story is that for a loaf of bread which you know sells for two pounds fifty in the supermarket i think we're paid a penny i think four pence would make a huge difference to us but it's just not making is that actually the economics yeah so for the wheat it's just um you know and i've got wonderful photographs of all the wheat in the barns and from that wheat from those tiny seeds be you know millet to make flour and bread and actually during the christmas period for which of cooking for people now. We use a quarter of a tonne of flour to make all the different cakes and panettones or whatever we're doing.

20:08But you do need flour and we've got one of the oldest medieval barns in southern England. And that again is a cathedral, it's a statement and it's a sort of hymn to the harvest and what we actually should collect in. So it's not trying to say farmers are trying to be greedy, It's just we're trying to continue. And you're saying that, you mentioned, as a chartered accountant. I mean, you're a qualified accountant looking at the business of this in a hard-nosed fashion, actually, looking at the capital costs of the equipment and how you cannot make that pay over a reasonable period because of the other issues affecting farming.

20:48So, I mean, you're talking here partly, I think, about the inheritance tax change that affects... There was inheritance... ...protesting very, you know... They have, and it's not... Is it about that part? It is that part, because a farmer today is not investing in another combine harvester for£750 ,000 payable on the, you know, whatever, however you finance it. Because he's not sure whether he might suddenly die. And then that and the tractor alone will put you at the million pound mark on which, after which you're going to be taxed. So the economics that the Treasury have presented in their economic case is false.

21:22There's no incentive to be a successful farmer, in fact. No. Because your farm would be more valuable and you'd have to pay more tax. It's, yes. So that is so silly. And investing in this country, I think we should actually have, so we're just building a new event space instead of having a marquee. And because it's a new investment and a new building, we have to pay for the outside structure out of taxed income. We can't set it off against our taxable income. I mean, again, that is bonkers. Why is that? Is that just a rule? Because it is a rule. So they should be encouraging people to invest in this country, to put money into this country, not tax you, not make you do it after taxed income when the tax is so high.

22:09So there are many straightforward things which would encourage people to invest and invest in the farm and look after it. And I don't think many of us in this country are being necessarily greedy. We're all trying to survive. and equally well on the other side I understand how tough it is so you know our prices for next year are the same as last year and in general admission time it's 25 pounds to come around Highclere because I think we're all struggling with money and I don't want people to think I'm you know making making a mint out of Downton and then not supporting others. So you've fixed the price so it won't be going up people listening will know.

22:49I'm already selling tickets yes to coaches and things like that and I think many of our base market are you know wonderful people who perhaps you know coming down on a coach from Western Supermare or from Newcastle no one's got a lot of disposable income but a day out is a treat so I'm always wanting to make sure that I'm also trying to look after them and a cup of tea is£2.50 or whatever it is because I think that matters as well so so we we are a business which tries to do our best and profit is not my um is not the bottom line although i can't afford to lose money so i have you know george and i are always discussing where we can put the balance and where we can find the marginal contribution to make to give us the ability to survive as well so you're really looking to sort of achieve continuity is that is that fair beyond profitability longevity i suppose i think longevity stewardship and i think high clear and similar stately homes are in the business of being in a sense a metaphor for looking after this world and being here for future generations of visitors in a hundred years time to come and see to go and stand under a cedar tree is it this is amazing so it's things like that and you it's not either pillaging nature or pillaging people's purses it's trying to find a fair balance and explain to people what their options are.

24:12Some people have more money and want a special treat, a smaller guided tour, and for that it's more money. But it's up to people to choose and it's up to us to give them the choice from which they can choose. So and in order to do that I plan and prepare a long way in advance. So I've opened my tours in 2026 until November the 5th. Right. So then people can make their choices and if they've booked an airfare I know they can get tickets. Yes, fantastic. So, yeah. So do you feel you're a sort of custodian of this wonderful place? I am. I'm just the steward. I'm just a custodian. But that's what I think we all should be of, you know, the people we work alongside, the trees that we sit under and look up, of the nature and the nurture and this world we look after.

24:58And, you know, some of the most amazing people are doing shout outs. And David Attenborough is in his 90s and is with the most powerful voice to do a shout out saying, just go slow. Think before you do something from which we can't come back. And that's very definitely a business philosophy that you just espouse, which I would applaud. And it's interesting seeing it in the context of Highclere Castle and the business you're running there. you mentioned um your husband jolly's family's been there i think you said since 1677 yes and and you mentioned there were some ghost stories do they everybody wants to know about i want to hear it's christmas time it's november tell us a ghost story have you seen a ghost there i did see a ghost i did see a ghost it's the first ghost story i've had on the podcast oh is it it is i'm really excited please tell me but am i the first stately home as well you are and you're the first farmer oh good my god so there are lots of firsts thank you am i the first gardener i wouldn't be sure about that but you're the first person to talk about gardening okay so we can do a bit of that i think i want to be first no so i'm very happy to first go so no so there are but and before my husband um my family owned it it was owned by the bishops of winchester for 800 years so people have lived here a long time and the innards of the old building are within the current castle so it's just been reformed and you know recycled transformed so each over succeeding iterations but no so I was with Edward my son Eddie who you know and he was about three or four years old it was actually on a winter afternoon I can't quite remember and Jordi and I were taking photographs in the castle for a new guidebook so Geordie stayed back with the photographer and it was Eddie's tea time and you know with your own children how important tea time is so we left the castle to go out back to the tea room so I could get him something to eat and we went down some old stairs in the bottom of the stairs I had one of those I think they had got them from Argos the little red trike which had an electric pedal which was such fun and you could put him on there and then it was much easier to get around places so I plonked him on there and we went through a door and turned right and he can put his foot down and so you're inside or outside inside the castle we're still inside the castle down some old flight of dark stairs through some old fire doors we turned right and as we turned right to go along a long corridor I saw a figure approaching from over my left shoulder and he was a bit taller than I and sort of dressed in black and he had a grey cravat or something right and as I was pushing Edward along in front of me I turned and he was following which um didn't fill me with enthusiasm actually and I was saying to Eddie is your foot flat down darling he was always a careful driver still is and and he said yes I was pushing him along with the foot flat down What being followed by this?

28:08And there was our old Labrador, Percy, who was the other side of some fire doors. And he was barking madly. And he would not bark at Eddie and I. And as we burst through those fire doors, the chap following me stopped, which was lucky. And I went through. I'm not blooming coming back this way. And went through. And the dog came with us. And I continued on, not wanting to say anything to Edward and on to tea. Anyway, I then found a friend who was a priest in Westminster Abbey And said, I've seen a ghost And perhaps this is the chance to bless Highclere Because it's only shortly after Jordy and I had taken over After his father had sadly died And perhaps wish this ghost away And he was called Father Peter And he's an Anglican monk And he said, that'd be absolutely fine So he came down and we blessed the house, which was wonderful.

29:07Blessed where people came in. Blessed where people might eat in the dining room. It was the most peaceful morning. We blessed a couple of bedrooms just as a token because otherwise it's a mental day. This is a gentle way of getting rid of ghosts. Yes, and then we went downstairs to where I'd seen the ghost. And he'd said to me, please can you find out who you think you saw and what the story was? And I'd found out from an archivist that apparently a previous countess's baby had sadly died, probably of something like cot death. But the nursery maid, who should have been sitting by the cot, was not there.

29:42And she'd been having an affair with the footman. And there was a terrible uproar and terrible grief when the baby died. And I don't think anyone was blamed, but everybody felt awful about it. And the footman sadly lay down and committed suicide. site he cut his throat over a grate in the cellars not far from where I saw him and I think he got up while he was around so you think you saw him and he was following me a new young countess with a baby following me along there so it was just trying to wish him on his way and saying there is no blame you can go now so it's there anyway the the father peter said um if i i wasn't if he'd if i didn't feel he'd gone he could come back with a couple of bishops or something we'd have another go bring in the artillery bring in reinforcements i think is what he said so reinforcements all right so what happened so that was very kind of him but but i think the chap is much better and is less there.

30:51I mean, sometimes he is there. So you don't think he's gone? Not completely. And I think John, our council manager, sort of says sometimes he was there and there's definitely someone standing just beyond where he locks up in a... So other people have seen this. Oh, yes. But just the shape. And I went along with a couple of my Labradors because I was going to go and shut up a door there. and they decided to turn tail and run. So I found I could shut the door another time. So that was that. But you don't see that troubled by this. It's in your home, down in the basement, admittedly, but it doesn't seem bothered.

31:30Well, I think I was trying to find other routes, and if I'm feeling bothered. But, you know, I saw another ghost upstairs recently. Well, he stopped upstairs. I didn't see him. I heard him. And there was another time. What was he doing? Well, he walks up and down the corridor. Playing a musical instrument. Oh, you go, what? What do you want? I haven't heard any musical into musical ghosts so that is positive actually perhaps that would be quite better who's going walking around again but it's all part of the so what do you as a chartered accountant what would you attribute this to what ghosts?

32:07what's the rational explanation for this or is there not one? I don't think I worry about it I don't believe any of this that's completely fine and I don't mind at all. But I'm sort of half and half. I'm not quite sure. But how do you interpret this? I definitely saw someone and I've definitely heard someone and I'm not the only one. So I've written a chapter about various stories. In your book. In my book. And people can read all the details. And quite a few different ghost stories that other people have seen. So I suppose together it forms quite an interesting picture. And it seems to me, and my husband doesn't see ghosts, Geordie hasn't seen a ghost.

32:46On the other hand, he tends to do his own thing and not walk along lots of different corridors late at night. It wasn't him walking around. It's not, no. So he beats his own path, which is, you know, heading up to bed rather than going in search. But I'm not necessarily sure I'm going in search of them. But I think there are other strong presences or emotions or there's another example which perhaps explains it more clearly that there was a relative of Geordie's who died of completely natural causes in one of the bedrooms upstairs. And his mother, who was a grown-up son, was sitting on the foot of the bed when her son sadly died.

33:36And sometimes if you go to the bedroom, there is the imprint of someone sitting on the end of a bed. and if someone sleeps in that bedroom, I sometimes ask at breakfast, did you sleep well? Just to see what they say. And you say, well, I woke up and saw someone sitting at the end of the bed. And, you know, someone has felt the presence of someone sitting on their feet. It's not necessarily completely bad, but there was clearly this moment in time which was immensely strong and intensely emotional and some of that appears to be still there. Right. So that's perhaps an easy example. And, you know, those moments in time which are intense.

34:16Curiously enough, in Downton Abbey, sadly Lady Sybil died in the third series of Downton Abbey in Portico Bedroom at the front of the castle. And Lismuth McGovern did an amazing job. This was the flu, wasn't it? No, she died in childbirth. Oh, in childbirth. And her mother acted by Lismuth McGovern. It was the most intensely moving scene. In fact, the good news was that the actress had to pass another film with Russell Crowe, so she'd wanted to leave Downton. So this scene was where she left it. But it was a very, very strongly intense emotional scene. I think for everybody watching it, they would have been very, very moved.

35:02So it's those moments in time. Portico bedroom, the real bedroom, it feels absolutely fine because it wasn't real. But again, it's this laying of one scene against another just to try to understand why perhaps people get a bit stuck there. Perhaps they like it. Perhaps they liked it in that bedroom. Yeah. You mentioned your husband's ancestor, Lord Carnarvon, who died in Egypt. I mean, there is a story around that as well, isn't there? Tutankhamun. There is. Same chapter, chapter 11. but I'm joking. It's all in the same chapter. Can we have a little bit of it? That's where I start actually. Right.

35:38So what's the story there? Because that's really interesting. So when the Fisil died in Cairo on the 6th of April, 1923, it was about two or three in the morning, I think. And his wife, Almeena, had flown out amazingly to be by his side. And she tried to nurse and save her husband's life. She had been a nurse during World War I and saved the lives of so many fathers and sons and husbands of other women, but she couldn't save her own husband's life. And at the moment he died, the lights in Cairo went out. So that's where I begin. Well, the whole city. The whole city went out. Right. And there's obviously, it begins therefore with curses and ghosts.