63. The future of PR and business in an AI world | Francesca Gamble

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What happens when AI comes for an industry built on relationships? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Francesca Gamble, founder of the GTN Consultancy and PR agency owner, to explore how technology is reshaping the worlds of PR, branding and celebrity partnerships.

0:46We'll unpack how technology is changing access to talent, why the old agency model is being challenged, and what today's entrepreneurs need to understand about building businesses in fast-moving, tech-driven markets. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Francesca Gamble. Francesca is the CEO and founder of not one, but two companies. The first is called 29 London, and it's a PR, promotions and communications company that specializes in the drinks and hospitality business. And the second is the GTN consultancy, which Francesca is going to tell us all about, but brings brands together with celebrities and influencers and exciting new ways.

1:31So this is all very current and topical, Francesca. And thanks very much for coming in to talk to me. So your background and early career, Francesca, was spent in some of the premium marketing companies in the country, M &C Saatchi, The Engine Group, but then you started on your own. Yeah. Just tell us that story to begin with. Welcome. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's an absolute privilege to be here. How did it happen? Sometimes I don't really know. You know, you wake up one day and these things all just come to you. But I basically had got to a point where I was working in a big agency life, doing what was back then sort of that typical sort of like 16-hour days, running and working for other people and doing brand activations and doing some incredible work.

2:13You know, I launched the 2012 Olympics, was a very integral part of various teams, BMW, Sky. So I got to see the world a lot. So really exciting. Very exciting. Yeah, huge projects. I traveled the world with sort of Prince Harry and his work with Centervale, with the Brand Royal Salute Whiskey. So I did a huge amount and got to be part of a lot from a very young age, really. Went to M &C Saatchi, did a small stint there, working with Dolce & Gabbana on their global campaigns and Stella McCartney. So huge global sort of PR experience. But for me, there was always something more. When you're speaking to these brands, you're only really getting a small sliver of what they're actually doing.

2:55And I guess there was always an itch. And I went to, there's so many great talks these days. But back then, we're talking sort of 15 years ago, they were really just getting started. And there's a great communications group called WACL Women in Communications in London. and I went to one of their panel talks and there was an amazing lady from Chanel and that's basically why I went you know I was very impressionable desperate and understand what Chanel was doing with their marketing and actually there was another another lady on the panel from a really small company that I'd never really heard of and her story is what I heard and it resonated with me so well and really opened my mind up to I guess the world of brands that are outside the ones we all know and love there's a whole world out there and obviously in today's market with entrepreneurship being so integral there's more brands than ever and I guess that really opened my mind to the scope of well actually how much I could achieve outside of the agencies I was on when I was working with some of the biggest brands in the world there's also a whole plethora of other brands out there that could do with my help so at 26 27 I kind of jumped ship and found myself in my bedroom it's a pretty brave thing to do yeah I don't think I um I tend not to overthink things.

4:10I kind of, very instinctual in kind of what I do. I didn't take any clients with me. And I pretty much had me, myself and I, and I'd find myself in the pub, actually on many occasions, hoping that a client would maybe land on my lap. But I did work hard and I do have a very hard work ethic. So yeah, I think from there, things just snowballed. So I just would like to sort of backtrack a little bit here, because you said a couple of things that i'd like to understand more you said there was a woman who gave a talk that she told a story that you really resonated with what was the story or what was the particular point there the point for me it wasn't around perfection it wasn't this idea when you work for big agencies and and uh being in that environment it's almost like you have blinkers on you almost have no idea that there's a whole world out there that exists outside of those four walls which is very you know it's very cocooned you're very like looked after right you know um it's a very house restaurants bars it's a privileged position to be in you know you could spend half your morning just playing darts and they call that creativity now i can't do that in my job and it's not something you know i don't like darts no i hate that i only do things i can win at so no dance is off the table as is bowling so i think that that's what obviously those big creative agencies and those big agencies from media the media industries have always thrived in is those environments so that they do more than just obviously do the work I'm somebody um that does need more than that I think listening to her story and the successes she had had with her agency and talking about brands I'd never heard of and it was like this is hugely inspiring to me because I was very pigeonholed so she was an entrepreneur who started her own agency and you saw yeah that was something you could possibly do too yes it's because it's very you are in a privileged position so you know you know in an agency world when you're looking at a client you know the numbers are huge on how much that client's worth okay when you work for yourself and you set up your own agency you can't use those same numbers and there's no doubt about it i would be going in with clients with these huge numbers no but you don't need huge numbers if you're doing it for your bedroom but it's just the way you're programmed it's very i think a very privileged position and obviously when you start earning your own paycheck yeah the rules are very different so then you said you set up in your own bedroom you went to the club hoping to bump into a client who was your first client how did you get going so I got going through word of mouth really um I started working with Pernod Ricard um that's a pretty big brand Pernod Ricard is not a bad place to start no no really how did you get that um I was when I worked in the big agencies I was pretty much the lead person um because I really understood luxury and the agencies were very much more mass consumer lifestyle so I kind of pigeonholed myself in that area and managed to maintain sort of their global accounts um and global PR toolkits and sort of really understanding that side of it so that was a good footing for me um so that was the sort of niche you started out it was yeah luxury yeah and ultimately what does mean understand luxury because people like luxury but what's it mean understanding luxury what's key to understanding it it's storytelling at its best i always feel it's you know you've got to sell a product i mean in this case a whiskey um completely differently so for instance we had a perfumist that came on board um from paris who was our kind of ambassador so it's the first time you're kind of dissecting the liquid and i think luxury has a real uh job to do with selling a product for the value it does whether it's whiskey or a handbag or whatever that product is they've got to go into the nuances of why it's worth x and what does that mean and how you connect to the customer as a result and um for me that's always been interesting um and that's something that definitely drew me to that area and I started to then get a few more clients in that kind of luxury space but actually always despite having done lifestyle clients from fashion all the way through to like over the last couple of years we've worked on Eurostar so very diverse we really do now what do you do for the Eurostar we launched their their previous olympic campaign last for Paris yeah all right so um yeah I mean we because you're in PR you have to diversify a little bit.

8:36I mean, every PR company knows that. But I've made a bold move this year. We're sticking to drinks and hospitality. Right. What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10 % of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Philco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide.

9:19Karma Capitalism is available now at karmacapitalism.org. Being a good business is good business. There are some sectors that are under some pressure as well, aren't they? I mean, We keep hearing about the hospitality sector being hit by taxes and rates. And then the drink sector is being challenged by people drinking less. So what are you going to do about this? What am I going to do? How does PR get involved in that? It is difficult. I think some of our drinks clients have also been taxed with, especially in the wine industry, with the cost of the glass where the bottle sits and the cost of the liquid.

9:55So the government is attacking it from all corners. I think the thing is that where we sit in the PR industry is the kind of really fun, fluffy stuff, to be quite frank. You know, we don't do corporate things. We're not trying to do a corporate job and change the face of what's going on. We essentially spend any money that they've still got left in the sort of brand partnerships area. So we've got clients looking at doing like the Traders Live Experience partnership at the moment. We've just done the Devil Wears Prada. we're doing sort of so my wife Nicola she's got a drinks business it's called Beeble and they make honey spirits honey rum honey whiskey oh I love that and it's doing really quite well why would she choose you I mean what would how would you benefit her business well hopefully the value added this is an opportunity to win a customer why would she choose you Francesca this is great because we're not just solely focused on what we'd call traditional PR anymore which is important depending on her sort of sales channels.

10:58And that's the first thing we need to look at. Some of our clients are still quite traditional in selling to retailers. And some are direct to consumer. So the sort of communication plan is completely different. And I think for us, PR is really important in today's market, despite how much it has changed. The rise of AI and what are people using to search for products is putting more emphasis on really good quality journalism again. So that's earned media. So that means someone like me that you're paying as a PR, our job is to get editorial for free. It's not a paid advert. So that's why it's so important now because people are going on to chat GDP and going, right, give me the best.

11:38What are the top 10 best gins in the UK right now? Oh, and then chat GDP goes and searches the media. Well, that's where they're getting all their quality sources from. Now, Google predominantly hits SEO. So if you're a brand and you're firing up SEO, your likelihood you'll come up. My sister had actually a really good example. She wanted to go, she's pregnant, desperate to go to a wellness spa and relax. So she put into Google, put it in. Anyway, this one came up, best one in Essex. Like, you know, off they went well. Her and a friend went in and I think, you know, they're turning a few heads thinking, what is this place?

12:11It's not quite looking like the pictures. You know, then they went into the pool area and there was a bit of a commotion and out comes a mouse from underneath one of the sunbeds. Suddenly it was like, wow. I mean, going back to how they searched for it, it was all through Google. So they sat there over lunch and thought, why don't we go on GTP and go and have a look? What does that come up with? So basically, that came up with a completely different search result. And they come up with different ones each time you do it. Yeah. So then from there, they then booked a new one and they visited it over Christmas.

12:44And it was exactly what it said. And the reference points that it was pulling. How do you know that then as a customer? I mean, you're kind of traveling blind a bit. Well, of course, but that's what marketing is, isn't it? It's the will of who's got the most money, usually, to get up to the top of the Google rankings. That's what it's all about. And that's why it becomes a black hole, especially for, like, your wife, for smaller brands to compete. It is so hard, which is why you're best not to throw your money down that black hole. And you're best to come to someone like me, who understands PR, quality editorial, and then we work together to distinguish where it runs you at.

13:19So you might agree with this opinion. So the last person who sat in that chair was called Pete Russell. And he said to me that in five to 10 years time, marketing and advertising will be dead. He said, finished. And his thesis was that instead of business being based on getting people's attention, it would all move to their intention. So I want to go to a spa or I want to buy a Honey Whiskey. And the way the search is bring up that information. Yes. It's materially different. That's his thesis. What do you think about that? Do you think that's possible? I mean, it seemed pretty bold statement to me, but is that how it's going to work?

13:56Well, it's not going to be dead. I mean, that's obscene. It's never going to be dead. As long as there's humans here and there's something to sell to, it's not going to be dead. It's just going to evolve into something different ultimately. And I think the way, look, the biggest problem we've got is trust right now. so how are we going to gain trust of the customer i think that's brand's biggest um hurdle over the next few years is demonstrating trust and ultimately that's going to be earned through brands understanding community and really getting under the skin so your wife's a great example she's got a small business she's in the best place the most large brands to to build that trust and to get that community going and engaged with her well you think that small entrepreneurs in a better place and bigger business.

14:47Yeah, absolutely. Because she can build community much more fluidly than a big brand because it comes from a place of authenticity. You know, Bacardi rum going in is a lot harder, which is why they spend more on big experiential activity because they're constantly trying to find new ways because they don't have the founder story. You know, they don't know how to connect to the customer. They can't use all those foundational points that your wife has that are so important. I think the way we consume obviously the information is going to change and I would like to think PR is about to get a new fresh take on its role within marketing because I think quality is going to be a big focus more than quantity and at the moment you know Quality is the sort of output of the PR Yeah and what people are looking for and obviously like you say how is it going to come up for them where are they looking because you know the money is on the marketeers are all talking about sub stack being you know a real driver long form content so how are brands going to get involved in that what does that look like you know um where where's the role of instagram going to take um to take brands and are people still going to be on there in the next few years and engaged and tiktok's big um but i'm not on tiktok because i don't feel it's the right platform for me for you personally or for your brands for me personally yeah um what it does for the business yeah maybe but i feel that we work in a people industry so for me my time and team's time is best spent getting in front of people and that's what i'm super passionate about is trying to get in front of people picking up phones you know how many conversations i've had this year already people kind of oh you're picking up an old school phone yeah no i like phones i think they're very important business tools and they get left behind a bit and people use email way too much i think or having to do zooms i don't want to have to look at my face every time um i want to speak yeah no the phone has a lot to yeah recommend it i agree yeah so this so this thinking on your part i think it must have informed your new business yes so tell me about that yeah it's quite exciting I didn't intentionally want two businesses and it's certainly a struggle to straddle two at the moment.

17:06But the second business is a big priority for me. I think it's kind of, we're really focused on partnerships. So with the intersection with brands and celebrity agents, really, you know, we do these deals between brands and then the celebrities to kind of like encourage that area to grow more. I think the world of influencers has really taken over somewhat. And there is an argument now, like, in terms of the kickback brands are seeing from influencers and the way that's changing in their real currency. Celebrities have always been there. They just have not necessarily, they're not necessarily the most inviting to go to.

17:45You know, there's a lot of ring fencing around it. You can't just call up Brad Pitt's agent. Well, I can call up Brad Pitt's agent because I know them. Right. Anyone who wants to talk to Brad Pitt, here's your contact. But influencers are much more accessible. Brands feel that they can probably go and target the big influencers and just DM them on social media and there's a close proximity to that. But the reality is as long as we have film, as long as we have TV, as long as we have music, all these key things in the art that are so important, we will continue to have celebrities. They're just not going to die.

18:21it's not something that is going to particularly move from where it was and where when I first started almost 20 years ago hasn't particularly evolved so for me it's really passionate you know I'm very passionate about working with celebrities and getting brands to work with them more and understand what have you done just so listeners have a sense of what we're talking about here a couple of examples yeah of course so we have we recently worked with Jason Statham out in the Middle East, in Abu Dhabi with the Grand Prix. So we signed him for a brand out there and he goes and does big appearance feed.

18:55What was the brand? It was the Abu Dhabi Tourist Board. So that was a really big signing. And since then, he's become an integral part of that area, trying to raise their profile around culture and entertainment, which is what the sector is trying to do at the moment. So our job is to make sure that kind of, that not only does that commercial partnership happen, but then it's important for us to build that relationship ongoing with the brand. So how did that come about? How was he linked with Abu Dhabi particularly? Was that your idea or was that something that already existed? Well, brands tend to come to us with an idea in mind of who they want to work with and what they want to achieve from it.

19:40From our position, we try and strategize that. So we need to understand aims and objectives and what that person is going to do. And in this instance, when it becomes an appearance, it's really important for us to kind of understand what the boundaries are to that, because someone like Jason is so big, how overly exposed he's going to be and working with his team, his agents and lawyers about actually what that looks like. So it seems like such a small thing when you go on the Daily Mail and you slide down and you see an event taking place like Formula One, for instance, and you see the celebrities there.

20:15You don't think much more of that. No, you just sort of absorb it. You just go, oh, that's great. Oh, he looks great. She looks great. Oh, this is really exciting. But there's people like myself behind that that are trying to orchestrate every part of that. So, you know, it's very important that we get the right pictures. You know, it's like making a cake, really, trying to get those celebrity shots. So if they're not having a good time? Yeah, so if the celebrities aren't having a good time, that obviously shows... And they're looking grumpy in the photos. In the photos, yeah. And there's a huge amount of management to that.

20:45There's a huge amount of safety aspects that we have to take into consideration as well. We were working with high profile talent. But ultimately... So you've got another example of this recently that you've done? Yeah, so we've done quite a lot here in the UK. So we worked with Laura Whitmore on various projects and Ashley Roberts we've recently signed her for one of our rosé brands that we launched so you know again she has to do um what's the brand so it's called Casolero del Diablo right um so it's quite a popular brand and they've launched their own rosé wine and Casolero del Diablo means something of the devil doesn't it what's the castle yeah it's all about the devil is that what I'm saying is that there's a question here in my mind is why well why the brand wants to be associated with her in particular but also why she wants to is prepared to put her own brand you know up alongside someone else's what's the sort of negotiation here well first of all we have to kind of match the brand values and say something like a rose wine that's meant to be all about fun and excitement and it was um more about the angel rather than the devil right have you got someone in mind for the other end of this yeah I'm not telling you oh yeah very good well we're just working on their global ambassador role at the moment so that will be interesting to see what happens there over the next few weeks but we have to marry brand values ultimately so there's a few ways we can do it look we're talking about big brands at the moment that have money to spend on talent and ultimately so brands are looking for celebrities yes brands look for celebrities but is this new or have they always done this well they've always done this haven't they if you think back in advertising terms they've always done it so but this is new because of the new media that it can give it sort of it's always happened but again i don't think a brand's necessarily always think about going to celebrities i think influencers often take precedence and you know i think a celebrity offers much more um than an influencer and i think because their media value is so high you know they don't just sit online.

22:49They're not just, and I think the way that world is moving at the moment, putting all your eggs in one basket, if you've only got X amount of budget to spend all in one space, I don't think is necessarily smart in reaching the customer now. So I think when you partner with a celebrity, the likelihood is they're on TV or you've watched them on Netflix or something, and then you may follow them on social media. There's a lot of large actors, so like Daniel Craig, Andrew Scott, Benedict Cumberbatch, they're not on social media. So we find they're still getting huge deals because brands don't mind that.

23:26They're looking at their worth and their image worth. But what we're also finding on, we're working on a randomly a rosé wine deal at the moment, which I can't say who, but with a big musician in America. And this is an equity deal. So I think something that I am looking at working more on, especially with like small to medium-sized businesses. What do you mean an equity deal? Well, the idea is that we bring celebrities on to a brand, depending on the level of the brand and where they're at, but ideally to get them involved in an equity perspective. So they'll become shareholders of that brand.

24:02Yeah. Famously, Jennifer Aniston came on to Smartwater, which sold for like 4 billion, you know. Paul Newman was one of the earliest with this source. wasn't it? Well look I think that the way the world is at the moment you know. This is happening a lot I mean lots of people. Well I think it's a really great place for to be and that's something that I would really encourage you know if you've got a brand like you should really be looking at this and I think that's something that we can we're kind of the gatekeepers to a lot of these celebrities and talent not in the UK but globally and it's a really viable option you know if you want to grow a celebrity is the best way to do it.

24:38And Emma Greed, who's co-founder of Skims and Good America, she uses, that's her superpower. She understands the game because the problem you've got with products is that a lot of entrepreneurs can spend years developing products, right? They believe they've got the best gin in the market, right? And they've got this liquid and and then they pop it into a bottle, brand it, and then they expect everybody to get it. And the problem you've got is that that really doesn't stand out when you put it against competitors, unless you've got marketing attached to it. And that's what is the difference between whether a customer purchases it or not.

25:16Ultimately, the marketing is fundamentally the most important thing. And celebrities get the cut through really quickly and get you seen by your target audience. And I think Emma has done an incredible job and not many other brands stick their neck out as much as she's done and invest in celebrities quite like she has done across her brands. So we had the maker of the best gin in here just the other day, Lady Carnarvon. She makes High Clear Gin and it's very successful in America. But she's got Downton Abbey, I guess, as the marketing for that, which sort of supports your point. It's good gin and people know where it's come from.

25:55And people love that sort of royal... Well, they're not quite royal, but they're aristocratic. It's that, especially in America, though. That just ticks huge, but yeah, this goes down very well. Downton Abbey was very successful. So that association between something that's in the media, celebrity, and a product is working more and more effectively, it sounds like, if you get the right combinations. Yeah. And that's your sort of business focus here. Yeah, and the second half of our duty and consultancy is we do brand to brand partnerships as well so we bring say for instance can't talk about everything we're working on at the moment but we bring brands together to hopefully do really credible sponsorship deals so we worked on like eon next the big energy company we recently did a partnership that they were looking at doing in a new sector so we brought they wanted to do gaming because their whole idea was they wanted their customers to turn off their energy for an hour a day, which is obviously a great story for an energy company to say.

26:59They actually want you to turn the energy off. And during that time, they wanted to encourage people to play and do something. So we brought on a gaming company called Big Potato, which is sales-wise up there as big as sort of Mattel's, and they are still a privately owned small business. And that was something very important to me because I'm a real champion of working with those types of companies and you know that's been a really successful partnership so that's another way um that we work so this is putting two brands alongside each other yeah what do you call that just a partnership brand partnerships or a sponsorship yeah yeah yeah so that's something and from the brand's point of view is that a way of getting into a new market or getting a new audience or what's the what's the what's the rationale for that well it's exactly that it It depends the reasons for going in, right?

27:48So for something like Eon Next have got 5 million customers and Big Potato is a much smaller business than that. So the alignment there is they're going to be able to look at sort of shared customer reach and be able to push themselves out to new customers, I'd say is their biggest objective at that point. But other things we've worked on. So when we worked on the launch of DevAware's Prada, one of our clients actually wanted to be able to use those assets in store. So when you shop in Tesco's, they were able to then brand all the end of the aisles up with the Devil Wears Prada, and that drove huge amounts of sales.

28:25So that was hugely - Sales at Tesco, Devil Wears Prada book or film are we talking about? This is, no, they were selling wine. Oh, okay. And basically helped increase their sales massively through that association that they had through their sponsorship. Why? Why? Because people like familiarity. They like to see things and go, that's interesting. Well, Devil Wears Prada helped them sell wine. Well, so Devil Wears Prada have the, they launched the live theatre show in London. Oh, okay. So that's what. Yeah. And then the film was out this year as well. I haven't seen that. So there's a real, like, very topical.

29:02So what we're very good at doing is also looking at what's happening in culture. Right. Right. So people are aware of this, see it somewhere else. Yeah. And they're like, well, I actually want to go to that or see that. And then the wine can do their bit afterwards. But it's very competitive, obviously, as you know, in the retail space. So any partnerships that drive point of purchase and, you know, get customers interested ahead of their competitors, small increments helps these brands. So in terms of building your business, how do you go about that? You know, It's relatively new, this new consultancy.

29:36I don't know. I don't know. I'm still figuring out. That's refreshing. What have you tried so far as well? For me, I've been doing, I'd say this solidly for just about 10 years now. And I'd say I'm very much at this point now where my next 10 years are going to be looking very different than my previous one. I think the last 10 years have very much tried and tested lots of things. I think the fact that I'm still here in our industry is, well, is kind of remarkable. Why do you say that? Because most agencies die, you know, they can't succeed. Why do they die? My personal opinion is a lot of agencies are built on smoke and mirrors.

30:18It's very ego. It's very like, you can go on LinkedIn, type in all the agencies and you'll see the drivel up there of everybody shouting about what awards they've won, what things they've won. Oh my God. Clients don't really care about awards. No one cares about awards. and the problem is once you've won an award you're already out of date because you've got to go win another one otherwise you're talking about the 2020 award you won 2025 or 26 exactly I mean but customers don't care that you've won an award they want to know what ideas you've got for their business the only award that I really quite like if I'm being honest is the great the taste awards the great taste awards you know when you have a gold star oh Nicola's got those on her honey whiskey oh there you go I love a taste award that's a sort of quality stamp Yes, I really like those awards.

31:01But industry awards, no. That's not going up and getting something in a black tie of a picture taken, put it on LinkedIn. I'm very anti all that sort of stuff, to be honest. I really thought I'd try. Because I don't like conforming. I didn't want to. I just don't like conforming. I'm not very ego. I'm very focused on the work. I'm just getting my head down. So you think these agencies that sort of didn't succeed are distracted by this? Oh, it's so. And ego driven. I feel like it's so easy to be distracted by it. It's there, especially if you've just jumped straight from one of those big agencies to set up your own.

31:33You know, so easy to do it. So easy to be distracted because it is whatever. There are many distractions, aren't there? Yeah. So you're a big believer in focus. Huge focus. Yeah, I like, that's why I'm still here, I think. You know, I'm very, very, I've been very flexible in how we've worked. Very amenable. I don't think I've ever said no What to a customer? Yeah, I will always bend over backwards and I think any clients that know me knows that's how we've always operated But you charge them accordingly Yes You kind of have to, don't you? Otherwise you lose out I'm here for the long term I will still be working when I'm 80 So for me, I'm not here in a mad race but you know I have felt a certain type of laser focus new I knew I was coming into this new phase and with the businesses that we've got.

32:28On the next decade you're talking about. Yeah yeah and it's and I feel like now I'm really putting a lot of my learnings now into practice and I'm not saying I'm not saying yes to things but how I go about stuff now has definitely been tweaked and refined based on where we were so it's kind of exciting it's um you know we were in a meeting the other week with a client and speaking about potential sponsorship and they put us into the same breath as img and you know the reality is that's exciting for me because we're a small independently owned company in which we will remain that um and we've got big ambitions to where we want to go and the conversations and the people we're in the room with i'm proud of how I've got is there and my plan is now to keep building that and maintain a very small senior level team um with the right mindset and that's something you know I've learnt um as I'm getting older that so you really want to keep control of your business and I do make sure it's yeah I do that's the work that you want to do yeah I mean if there's um with the GTN sector we are building a tech product at the moment that will be a brand and celebrity connector and allow a much more seamless approach to how brands want to work with celebrities.

33:50And that's a tech product I'm kind of bootstrapping myself, which is really difficult because I don't have endless amounts of money. Any money we've made, I've earned. And it's really easy to just spend it all. so these ai projects can sort of start becoming quite expensive yeah yes yeah i've shared that yeah yeah lots of people told me how much money these things are to get off the ground but i'm i am i don't know maybe it's that entrepreneurial part of me and i'm a bit ignorant and stubborn where i just go i need to do it myself first because i figure if you don't do something yourself and fully understand all of it you get sidetracked by the money aspect and you know in theory in today's world it's not difficult to get money from people to fund projects to raise money yeah and that's not something right now i want to do i feel like i probably lose control too early on um but i think we're on to a good thing but i'm prepared even though you're putting your own money in or money that's been generated by the companies or revenue investment you're not going outside for debt or for equity investment no so that means you're still the whole owner then?

34:59Mm-hmm. For now, yeah. I can see the appeal of that. I mean, that's... Well, yeah. If you can do that and make the progress you want to make in that way, that's the best way to do it, I think. Yeah, well, I'd like to have proof. I'd like to, you know, proof of concept and at least put my money where my mouth is. If somebody was going to come in and invest, at least they know who they're investing in and that's half of what investment is about. You mentioned that this investment that you're making at the moment is a sort of brand celebrity matcher. Yeah. I mean, we're in the business of matching people with client companies who want to hire them.