64. How to convert visibility into sales and long-term growth | Penelope Chilvers

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it really take to build a premium brand without outside investment, fast growth, or shortcuts? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Penelope Chilvers, founder of the footwear brand that bears her name.

0:41Over the past 25 years, Penelope has built a business rooted in craftsmanship, ethical production, and long-term relationships with artisans in Spain, all while staying deeply hands-on as a designer and creative leader. We'll explore what sustainable growth really looks like, the realities of slow fashion, and how to turn craft into a lasting business. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Penelope Chilvers. Penelope is an English footwear designer and founder of the eponymous brand Penelope Chilvers. She makes wonderful shoes and boots, and she's expanding into other lines, which we'll talk about later.

1:25She originally trained as a painter in London before moving into design work in Spain. And her business is, in a sense, a fusion of British and Spanish style. But Penelope is going to tell me more about that in a moment. So thank you for coming in today, Penelope. And I'd really like you to begin at the beginning. tell us a little bit about how this wonderful business journey of yours which started 25 years ago began hi James yes it's been um quite a journey and it's it's uh taken up most of my life actually now looking back but 25 years ago I was um I was in my first career living in Barcelona as a painter.

2:12And I studied for four years at art school in London, and then went and did an MA in Madrid in draftmanship and drawing. And then I went to live in Barcelona, married my Spanish husband, and tried very hard to make money as a painter. but I started a family very early and felt really stupid going into the art. Going into my studio and not being able to have a good day painting and coming out with something that could help us make some money just wasn't enough for me. And so I started to change my chip and think I need to be more commercial more quickly. and so I became a commercial painter restoring murals and painting furniture and then from then I started working with woodturners and designing objects in Barcelona and working with artisans and I think that was probably the beginning of my career as a footwear designer working with artisans because I really got very passionate about working with with craft people who make things.

3:31And then I came back to London after the sad ending of my marriage with two little girls and had to kind of reinvent my career because I'd lost what I'd started in Barcelona for those 10 years that I was living there. And I was trying to work out what I could bring to London from Spain, because I feel like I'd probably done the opposite when I went to live in Spain was taking a little bit of London with me. The interior design world and the painting skills that I'd learned in London had been so useful in Barcelona. And it's a long story, but I used to go riding in my lunch break in Spain up in the Coycerola Park.

4:18As one does in Barcelona, you have very long lunch breaks and I would go for a short hat. Sounds very civilized. It's not like a trip to Pret. And I'd had a pair of riding boots made for me to my own design by an artisan that I'd met at a trade fair. And I used to wear these boots in London. And quite a lot of my friends said, where did you get those boots? I want some too. So I started taking commissions. First, it was two or three pairs. And I'd go down and see my artisan and say, I want those made. Had you told him exactly what you wanted? absolutely yes you knew what you wanted for yourself and then other people said i'd like so yes yeah that was how you started absolutely yeah i designed them so before we go further you said you you studied as an artist and you started out as an artist and then your sort of focus let's say changed gradually in a way you went from one type of artist to another type of artists and then to design furniture and then to artisan.

5:25I think I got ever hungrier to make money. You just needed to make a living. I really needed to make a living and I got great pleasure out of trading. But you arrived in London effectively, from what you just said, Penelope, with two young children, recently separated, divorced, and so effectively on your own. Yeah, really short of money. And you had to fend for yourself and build a business from the ground up on your own with these two little children in tow. I mean, that's a big ask. Yeah. So how did you do that? I mean, we often couldn't make it to the end of the month. It was really tough.

6:13But there was something about what you were doing that you really loved? Because you obviously persevered. What was it that kept you going? I just, I think I'm lucky that I always think that a door will open the next, you know, something will come. And I kept trying all sorts of different things. I tried to get into the interior design world, but it was pretty much, you know, I was in my 30s. A lot of people were already established. And so I had to find something different. And I kept going back to Spain to work there on any job that I could get. but it was eventually these boots that took off so quickly.

6:53In my first six months, I sold 100 pairs to The Cross. There was an absolute craze in Notting Hill Gates. The Cross is a great posh shop in Notting Hill Gates. It is, yes, and I sold five pairs. They sold out in a day, 10 pairs. Then I was back on the plane down to see my artisan in Andalusia and asking him to make more. So you knew you were onto something here? I don't think I did, no, because I didn't go to business school. I was trained as an artist. I don't think I did. I never knew that I was starting a business at the time. What did you think you would do? I just thought I was making ends meet.

7:32What I was selling, I was putting back into the business. And if I made a promise to someone that I would deliver, I would damn well deliver. and the same happened when I started trading. In my first year, I went to Paris Fashion Week with a tiny collection. I started enlarging the collection from the first style into different other styles that friends would ask me to make. They'd say, I really like that boot, but I'd love it in navy suede. Or could you do it in an ankle boot? Or could you do something else? And because I'm so creative and I love making things, of course, that got my juices, my creative deuces going and I would dream up collections and I once went to Paris, sorry, the first time I went to Paris, I went with a collection of six boots and I planted them on the table in front of me.

8:25I didn't even have an order book. I wasn't sure whether I would take any orders and I took orders for three days non-stop and when I got back on the Eurostar at the end of the trade fair. I totted up the orders and thought, my God, I think I've got a business going here. But how the hell am I going to make them? To ask a crass question, how much was the order book? It was, well, for those days, it was big. I think it was probably about 30 ,000 pounds worth of... So yeah, definitely. Of wholesale product. And only one man making them. Right. And he disappeared. He was frightened off by this, wasn't he?

9:06He was absolutely terrified. And he said, you know, you've just become so greedy since you've started working in London. And I said, it's not greed. It's need. It's an expensive city. And if you want this business, you find a way to make them. And did he or did you have to find someone else? No, he went off wild boar hunting. We didn't have mobile phones in those days. He just disappeared off into the wilderness. So that's not very helpful. No, no. You've got to fulfill all these orders. Yeah, but I was determined. And so eventually I found some school friends of his that had a small factory. You probably call it a workshop in industry standards.

9:51But they have been working for me now for 20 years. Oh, so fairly early on you found your production partner. Yeah, and we've grown together. Listening to you though, we had a jewellery designer called Kiki McDonagh on our podcast a while ago. And she said that her first collection was very much aimed at friends. And her advice to people starting out was, you make something you think your friends will like and buy. And if you can do that, then you know you can then grow from there. Listening to you, it sounds like you were really close to the ground in terms of talking to people, hearing what they wanted, asking them what they would like.

10:30You know, they wanted blue suede or a different type of design. But you were very, very close to the customer. And that, in a sense, got you going so quickly. I still feel that. You still feel that? I still feel that. I still feel I'm very close to the customer. How do you achieve that now? Because obviously the business has grown and you've got shops. Well, being the founder, everybody talks to me about their feet and what they'd like. And if I go to a party, people normally talk to me about their feet or the latest style that they've just seen that I've made or the color that they think is so on trend and beautiful at the moment.

11:13And I also like spending time in my shops. I love it when I go there. What if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make? I'm James Reid, CEO of Reid. In my new book, Karma Capitalism, I reveal how being a Philco, that's a company where at least 10 % of shares are owned by a charitable foundation, has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Philco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. this book is part manifesto part practical guide karma capitalism is available now at karma capitalism.org being a good business is good business how many shops do you have now we've got five five shops yes and where are they if i might not so people listening want to go and visit one of your shops we've got one in notting hill gate which is our first shop and then we've got another one in Duke Street in Mayfair, another one in Elizabeth Street.

12:20There's one in London. Yes. And then we've got one in the King's Road, which is actually a pop-up and that's about to close. How much longer is that open for? I think we're continuing for another month. So get down to the King's Road, to Penelope Childers, while you can because there's – and then you've got one in Stowe and the World. And then we've got a beautiful little shop in Stowe and the World, which has just had its first birthday. Right. So you spend quite a lot of time in the shop talking to customers. I often pop in and I say I'm just going to pop in to buy a pair of sandals for somebody or something like that.

12:55And, you know, four hours later, I'm still there talking to customers. I love it. So your business has grown. You've got several shops. You also have a lot of trade online. Yes. What's your URL if people want to find you? PenelopeChilvers.com. PenelopeChilvis.com And most of our business is done on our website. The stores are a small part of our business. And you sell around the world, I imagine. Yes, we wholesale all over the world, mostly to America at the moment. I mean, for people who don't know your brand, I mean, I would describe it as high-end. They're very good quality luxury, I suppose, shoes and boots.

13:34Is that fair? Is that how you would describe them? Yes. I mean, they're not cheap, are they? They're not, no, they're not. Premium price. But actually they're incredibly good value. Why are they incredibly good value? Because I'm a stickler for really good quality. We still make in the factories that I visit very often. And if it's not me, it's somebody else from my team. So we know everything about how the product is made. So there are no surprises. um making footwear is is a fine art and um so and I don't cut any corners so I've stuck to my guns on that on quality um when I've been offered you know cheaper better faster products um or production um in further in places like China I have said no because I've been very loyal to the people that I've been working with who really taught me my trade.

14:41So these are the same people for 20 years. They're based in Catalonia. Actually, they're not in Catalonia. They're in Murcia, Alicante, which is Valencia and Andalusia. I can't pronounce those places like you can. So in different parts of Spain. But you've really stuck to that Spanish artisanal. I have because I've learned everything and I've learned everything through them. And in different factories, things are done differently. Yes. And these people, they've got it in their blood. They're shoe dogs. I've become one too. We've got it in our blood. We've been working in the shoe world. They've been working in the shoe world for three or four generations.

15:28So you're very strong on quality. you've really just stressed that what what does it take to ensure that a shoe is really good quality because it's different to designing clothes isn't it it's a different process it takes longer in many ways it is and so what what do you really need what do you need to look for to ensure that shoes are good quality as as a manufacturer as a producer so i think the most important thing is the last which used to be a wooden foot yes leather was stretched over um Now, they're no longer wood. They're a kind of plastic or polyurethane, but they are actually melted down and reused.

16:08So there's very little waste in the industry in making new lasts. Finding a good last and sticking to it is key to my business. So what makes a good last? Because people's feet are all different, aren't they? Legs are all different. Yes, but if you find a good last like we depend upon, we have three or four lasts that the majority of our footwear is made on and we know that it fits really well. And this is something you've developed over 25 years. Yes. So you've taken a long time to own it. We've not made, you know, we don't often make a new last. Really? Because we depend on the ones that we know and love.

16:44So you know and love these last. Yes. And that's the key to it. I had no idea. It's one of the keys. The other thing is using good materials. Yes. And the other thing is. Well, you mean good leather or what other materials? Good soles, good stitching, cotton threads, good linings, and craftsmanship. I mean, our craftsmanship is really... So there's a lot of handwork in this. Yes, there's an awful lot of handwork. And we work with artisans and small workshops, so we don't work in big factories still. The other thing is that we test everything when we get back. When we get our samples into the office, if you come into Penelope Chilvers, office you will see everybody in the office wearing shoes sometimes one on each foot but we test everything before we send it to market yeah so those original boots that you describe you you mentioned will you describe them to me please because i want to ask you in a follow-up question but tell us what they look like what are we talking about it's the boot of many measurements it's probably the most difficult boot i ever made um to reinvent it now would be is quite hard it's an equestrian boot so it's cut um tight to the leg you know it's got a an elegant ankle a long shaft a zip on the outside and um you know when you're riding that you can't have a zip on the inside because it can rub on your leg against the horse um it's on a tread sole um which you possibly call a yard sole in the equestrian language and it's made of a good It's made of a vegetable dyed conker brown leather, which has a beautiful patina and gets better and better with age.

18:32So one of your famous customers I happen to know is Catherine Princess of Wales, who's had a pair of these boots, I think, for a very long time because she was famously photographed or filmed going to a monastery in Bhutan wearing your boots. And I think I recall that the sales shot through the roof at this time just because she chose to wear them. And she keeps wearing them, which is good. She does. Which supports your case that they're high quality because they've lasted her many years and she obviously loves them. Well, she looks incredibly good in them. So I'm very lucky. She actually just wore them very recently, just after Christmas, when on her birthday she released a beautiful film about being at one with nature and how important that is for the soul.

19:21And she was wearing our boots again. I shouldn't make jokes about souls at this point. So she loves your boots. She's a loyal customer. Yeah. But what's striking for me about that is how important that can be for business, how the endorsement of someone, well-known, famous celebrity, can really help sales. because I'm often saying I think celebrities should be mindful of that and help small artisans, new businesses more by wearing things, showing things. And she's been a great advocate just through loving the boots, by the way. Really authentically loving the boots. And she wears, they're an outdoor boot.

20:03They've got a purpose. They're a very purposeful design. They're a great walking boot. And so she's had these at least 10 years, I think. At least. So they're durable. Well, I do believe in making footwear that lasts a lifetime. That lasts a lifetime. And that boot construction, which we use in three of our workshops, is called the Goodyear welt. And that was, well, if it was in England, it was a Victorian piece of machinery that you, it's a double stitch sole so that you can take the sole off the heel and sole off and then re-sole and um it's it's the most it's it's probably the best construction there is and it's the most most expensive as well right but there is a there's a sort of message here it's worth spending some money on your footwear because it can last forever if you get the right things Absolutely.

21:03And if you care for them. Yeah. And they're comfortable to wear. Our customers really know how to care for their boots because you know what our best-selling product is? No. Polish. Oh, right. Shoe polish. Isn't that extraordinary? That's your best-selling product. Sad. Sad price-wise. That was good. But wonderful that people know how to look after their shoes. Yeah. Well, I obviously love them. It's not something we even push. You know, we very rarely – we should talk about it more. I should give more demonstrations on how to care for your shoes. Yeah. So when you started the business, Penelope, you had two young girls.

21:43I believe that both your daughters now work with you in the business. So they sort of literally grew up with it. Talk me through that journey. Because it feels to me more of a family enterprise now, if they're sort of supporting you in different ways. Well, we've got 50 employees. Two of them happen to be my daughters. So I wouldn't call it a family business exactly. I have an MD and we have a structure like any good business, good, well-run business. And both my daughters came into the business at different times and for different reasons. But I think it is to do with feeling innately knowledgeable and passionate about a business through growing up with it and listening to me on the phone at home.

22:35I used to work at home a lot when the children were little. So perhaps it was that that got them interested in coming into the business. But they also both happened to be very artistic and they've been a great inspiration to me as well in style and design. So that sounds to me entirely positive from everyone's point of view. Absolutely, yes. But you sort of hesitated to call it a family business. You don't like that description or you don't feel that? I think, no, I love the idea of a family business. And I think it probably looks like we're a family business from the outside. But as I say, I think a family business means that

23:24that it's owned by the family. Right. So your business is more sort of widely owned. Yes, I have investors, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's go into that. So you started off very much on your own with small children, but then you've grown the business and you've been able to do that recently through raising funds from investors. Yeah. How did you find that experience? What would you advise to others seeking to sort of do similar? I'm not sure if I could give advice on that but certainly if I had a different kind of training I would have thought about where I was going to be in three years time at the beginning and made sure I had the funds to do it and I didn't I think it was much more a matter of um just feeling lucky every day that I could pay myself to do something that I really love to do and um i like to stay in that position as the as as the creative director yeah so so you you were sort of thinking more short but it's you need money don't you to acquire the stock i suppose when you had that 30 000 orders yeah you've got to have some cash to pay the people in spain to make the boots and buy the leather absolutely and so you need a cash flow for that that's I imagine quite substantial as the business grows.

24:44Yes, it is. And at certain times of year, it's absolutely critical. And you have a lot of stock. It's a complicated business. Yeah. Wholesale, retail, production. Yeah. So how, as you've grown, have you found support for that? How have you hired people? What do you look for? What did you do? Business is tough, isn't it? I mean, you have to have a team surrounding you that are absolutely determined to do all their best to make that sale. I mean, every sale counts. That's what I tell all my employees. And so many young people come straight out of school or university and they have learned many, many academic skills.

25:33However, the commercial skills you don't acquire until you start trading. And until you understand that, how critical it is, you're not really a cog in that wheel. And I think that that's what I've found, whether you're on the shop floor or whether you're in e-com or whether you're in design, everybody has to work together to sell. and so everyone in the team is a salesperson in a sense i think so yeah yeah i like that i think it's and and you know and determined to make the business successful i think that's right because whatever business we talk about sales have to happen for it to be a business absolutely doesn't matter whether you're a lawyer or whether you're making shoes or selling shoes or you're in recruitment sales is vital I give talk sometimes to um to my customers and I tell them how I started my business and at the end of the talk a lot of a lot of women come up to me and say that they have children just leaving school or university who'd really like to get into the fashion business and have I got any tips for them and I always say to them to just to just tell that artists suggest to their children that they jump right in because I don't think they however many years they've been learning the academics of business until you're actually in a business yeah business is not an academic activity it isn't they're the opposites they actually are the opposites yeah I often think that you know at school you have to write essays I never write anything down much in business always talking to people you can't collaborate that's called cheating so you You know, in business we do that all the time.

27:24You can't copy. That's a good idea. So I think that's right. And I think there's a sort of, I've come across, I don't know if you have a sort of reluctance around selling. People say, oh, I don't want to do that. I don't like that idea. I don't think the British are very good at selling. Don't you? I think, you know, if you go to America and you see how wonderfully good they are at selling and how passionate they are about business and commerce. Even my customers, you know, the enthusiasm they show for me and my business is quite astounding and how much they support it because they believe in what I'm doing.

28:08We have a huge audience for this podcast in America for the very same reason, I think. People are much more interested in business. So what can we learn from them, Penelope? I think what should British businesses and British business people be doing more of? I think they're very articulate, the Americans. I think they have a passion for business and work and a good work ethic. And I think we can learn that from them. So do you go there a lot? So do you go there to sell yourself? We're actually in Texas at the moment. We have a new showroom there. So we're selling the autumn winter collection. So you're selling riding boots to Texans.

28:50I like that. That's a Coles to Newcastle. Absolutely. Excellent. We do. How's that going? Cowboy boots are our best selling boots throughout the US. And they have been for many years. They're well known for being, I think, incredibly comfortable and lightweight compared to the Mexican or Spanish, sorry, or American made cowboy boots. so yours are lighter and yes more stylish you don't need to run them over with a with a truck before wearing them to soften them all right okay well that's a good selling point so are you hoping to expand more in america is that part of your plan for the future yes yes we are i mean we've been would you open a shop there or i don't think we'll do that at the moment things are too much up in the air aren't they and that would be a very expensive thing to do but through wholesale and um nordstrom who are our main stockist in the u.s right and they sell throughout nord sorry throughout the u.s through through nordstrom um they're a fantastic partner for us so it's a very big market though isn't it so yes we had johnny bowden on the podcast he was opening his first shop in atlanta i haven't had any feedback it's probably open now but that might be an outlet for you you should see if you can put some of your boots in um so you've as i understand it panetta you're sort of widening your range and you've started to introduce clothes as well as other accessories this is a change in strategy could you explain why you're doing this yeah yes and we've run the numbers many many times over over the last two years we've been thinking about product and how to expand the range.

30:36And I think we've got our footwear down to a really wonderful place at the moment of a kind of we have so many what we call our icons. We have some great iconic styles that we've been selling year in, year out for many, many years, and they're still growing as pieces. and then we bring in new products in the footwear. But we felt that we thought it was a good plan to sell more products to the same customer. As you know, acquiring new customers is difficult and expensive. And with the state of the world at the moment, there's so much unknown about stability in economies around the world. It's ever-changing.

31:26and so we thought that if there's one sure thing we've got a very loyal customer at Penelope Childers so to be able to offer them something above the knee instead of just below it was a good plan and as I say we've run the numbers many times over to see how we could do that and we're now in our second season of producing clothing. So what sort of items what sort of clothing is it that you're focusing on? In the winter, we'll be focusing on outerwear to go with our outdoor boots and party wear to go with our party shoes. Basically, what I've started designing is full looks head to toe, starting with the feet.

32:11Very unusual way to design. Ground up. So I know... Ground up and above the knee. I know how our customers wear our shoes. So I know the kind of customer that buys a party shoe from us and I probably know what kind of dress she might like to wear with it or what jackets she might like to wear with our inclement boots which are our best-selling waterproof long tassel boots like the ones that we were talking about earlier that Catherine wears so I'm really enjoying this stage it's absolutely fantastic for me as a creative to be able to to think about the full outfit from, you know. That's a big deal.

32:52Toe to head. Toe to head. That's a big deal, though, having a whole new range of that. I mean, that's a big investment, isn't it? It absolutely is. I mean, how many different sort of outfits or items are you looking at? Well, we're starting very small. Starting very small. And it's a bit like starting the business again. What's very small? Yeah, what do you mean by that? Well, in SKUs. So we have probably 120 SKUs a season in our footwear. And in our clothing, we have started with, in the first season, I think we had 30. So 30 different items. Yes. Is that what you mean by SKUs? Yes, different items.

33:33Right. And so you've started selling clothing. We have. And it's been very successful. Excellent. What have been the best selling clothing items? The equivalent of the tassel boot. the jacket the i'm wearing um a shearling julia at the moment which i've called the incredible julia because it is the same as our incredible boots in that it's got a trim a woven trim around the outside just like our incredible boots and then it's shealing on the inside just like our incredible boots which are our best-selling snow boots it's very comfortable and warm at this time of year and warm and um can be you know bought by the same person yeah so having things that match your boots is quite clever.

34:16Well, it's a design. It's, yeah, they're nice tram lines to work with them. Yeah. So from the ground up makes sense. And what about other accessories? Are you doing that as well? Yes, we've always done other accessories. We make beautiful socks. And we also make bags, wash bags, travel bags. So did you have a men's range at one point? We do a tiny amount of menswear. But you see, that is not our customer. So that is a different industry. What do you do in menswear? The only thing we do for men is our unisex styles. Because I like to think that women can also wear them if they have size 43, 44 feet.