66. From miniskirts to stem cell therapy: How a fashion leader is changing heart failure treatment | Jenifer Rosenberg OBE

7:10Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:What qualities made it that, do you think?

7:12James Reed:Because we had to, quality was terribly important.

7:15Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Quality.

7:15James Reed:Quality. All the factories that manufactured for M &S had to be of a certain standard. they couldn't be like um sweat shops they just couldn't they had to be had proper facilities of this m &s insisted on having the right facilities for their staff they had canteens in all their shops so girls could have breakfast or lunch and they insisted that the manufacturers had the same facilities they had to be clean they had to have canteens for the girls to have lunch and if you smoked in those days people smoked you um had a smoking room right so they were ahead of their

7:53Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:time way ahead of their time was most of the manufacturing done in britain then at that time everything was done in britain on their label all the sourcing everything maybe not the fabric

8:04James Reed:but every i would say 100 of actual manufacturing was done in the uk so that's totally changed Totally changed now. Totally changed.

8:13Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yeah.

8:15James Reed:It's a totally different world. I mean, you buy something, you buy, I don't know, a skirt or a bra, and it's made in Bangladesh or it's made in Kuala Lumpur, wherever.

8:24Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And you don't know what the conditions are in those factories at all. Well, they are.

8:27James Reed:They're sweatshops. Do you remember that terrible, I think it was in either Bangladesh or Pakistan, where they had that terrible fire.

8:35Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yes, I do.

8:36James Reed:And a lot of people were killed. I mean, those factory conditions were appalling.

8:41Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So it's interesting. So why do you think that those standards that were so successful then were allowed to fall away?

8:49James Reed:Well, they haven't fallen away in the UK. It's because people have gone overseas.

8:53Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Well, that's what's happened, isn't it? I mean, people in the UK are happy to buy things from these places.

8:57James Reed:I will tell you a funny little story. Before going into the skirt department, I was in the accessory department. And I was very junior then. and we were buying Chanel crocheted berets from Italy. These Chanel berets were all handmade by artisans living all around Florence, but they would come to a central point where they would be collected. So I went to this central point, which was a factory, to check these berets out. And each worker had been given a shape which they had to make these hand crocheted berets to. Anyway, being a lady, I suddenly decided I need to go to the lavatory. So I said, oh, you know, where can I go?

9:38And there was a lot of hissing and talking behind hands and everything.

9:44James Reed:And suddenly the next thing, I found myself in a car being taken to somebody's home to use the facilities because all they had in the factory was a hole in the floor. So I thought this was terribly funny. So when I went back and I told my boss, you know, this story about what had happened, he was horrified. and the manufacturer's agent was called in and said unless they put proper facilities in that factory they're cancelling all the contracts and that's how they operated because they felt that you shouldn't have you should have proper facilities everywhere yeah and they were their high standards really created the amazing business that they had and the quality of the merchandise

10:26Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:that they made yeah so it's a real message around focusing on quality quality was second to none And treating people properly.

10:33James Reed:And treating people. And I always remember another instance, again, again with Teddy Seave. There's something with tweeds. Again, tweeds were manufactured in various countries. And we used to buy a lot of them. But there's a fabric called bull's wool, which is where the offcuts of the fabric was made. And it was cheaper. It felt very coarse. he would always feel a skirt and say, this can't be ball's wall because we're not buying it. And they had their own quality control in the building. They had their own team of quality control people. They had their own laboratories. They were way, way ahead.

11:13Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Read.co.uk is giving away 1 million free job listings to employers across the UK. Whether you're filling dozens of roles over the next few months or looking for your next team member right now, read.co.uk can find them for free no catch no long-term commitments just more businesses being able to find their perfect hire act quickly these listings aren't free forever visit read.co.uk forward slash million job giveaway today and be part of one million opportunities to love mondays so teddy see if i mean you've mentioned him several times because he was my boss he was your boss but i mean he for younger listeners was very famous very retailer entrepreneur businessman in the 20th century what did you learn from your boss what would be carried

12:03James Reed:forward into this era was first of all i think he was a wonderful communicator you know he was the chairman of this public company and i was a kid in my 20s he knew exactly who i was he would come in He would have a conversation with me. He would communicate with me. And I think that was an amazing, amazing way to operate. And all the senior board operated like that. They would go down to Marble Arch, talk to the customers, see what was happening, what was selling, come back. And they knew that business inside out.

12:38Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So they were very keen to talk to people who were on the shop floor,

12:43James Reed:customer facing and learn from them. And they would make a point of talking to the sales assistants because the sales assistant would know more than anybody else what the customer wants.

12:53Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yes.

12:54James Reed:And they regarded everybody as being important. You know, from the shop assistant to the buyer, to the senior buyer, they treated us all equally.

13:07Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Very good. That's a very important message. You started out, you said, in the post room. So I suppose that was a good way to get to know everyone because you were delivering the mail.

13:14James Reed:No, I got to know everybody. I didn't stay in the post room very long. I was only there two weeks. Two weeks, okay. I went into the accounts department. That's where I got to know everybody because in those days you had things like checks. Right. And the checks had to have two signatures. So every check had to have the company secretary's signature on it, Mr. Goldberg. I remember him like it was yesterday. And then I was given the job because I was young and cute. I was given the job of them finding directors to get the second signature on. Well, I didn't find them. They'd phone around. And there were various members of the board, like the Sackers and the Laskers.

13:57James Reed:And they were mature gentlemen. And they were very happy when I came in to have a conversation. They didn't have much to do other than sign these checks, have a cup of coffee. So I got to know them all. So I would say that I learned more. I learned about more people in the accounts department than I did in the post room. So this point about making time to talk to people, it feels like in many businesses that's been lost. I think it is being lost because you've got all this technology today. People are texting. They're sending emails. They're losing the art of communication. I have a little saying.

14:34James Reed:I always say to myself, it pays to talk. And I think it's so important to pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody rather than keep sending texts and emails.

14:44Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:It pays to talk.

14:45James Reed:It pays to talk.

14:46Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:My version of that is talk before you type.

14:48James Reed:Oh, OK. Because I agree. There we are. We're on the same wavelength, James, you and I.

14:52Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:I think you're more likely to get things done if you talk to somebody. Absolutely.

14:54James Reed:I agree with you. I couldn't agree with you more. Because an email is very black and white. And it can be dangerous.

15:01Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yeah.

15:01James Reed:Whereas when you have a conversation, you can just, if you can feel there's a situation developing, you can diffuse it. Yes.

15:10Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So how many years were you at Marks & Spencer?

15:12James Reed:I was at Marks & Spencer for 14 years.

15:16Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:And then you branched out on your own, which is exciting. Then I branched out on your own. So this is career number two.

15:21James Reed:So I left career number one where I was flying high. I was really...

15:25Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So what was your last job there before you?

15:27James Reed:My last job was in ladies' separates. And separates had grown. I started off with a small skirt range but from there we developed a trouser range because they didn't have trousers then we developed jackets and the whole thing grew it was like it was growing at such a fast rate we didn't quite realise how big it was it was enormous and it was quite funny with trousers because we developed these fit and flare trousers and we couldn't get enough production so again when the board would go around to different manufacturers anyone that had Hoffman Press suddenly became a trouser manufacturer overnight.

16:00James Reed:We were pulling in production from everywhere.

16:03Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:What's a Hoffman press?

16:04James Reed:Oh, a Hoffman press, right.

16:07Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:It's two pads, and you just clamp it down,

16:12James Reed:and it steams and presses. So you put a trouser leg under it, and you get the crease.

16:16Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Oh, I see.

16:17James Reed:But you use it for other things as well. You don't only use it for trousers. You can use it for... But it's all been modernized. Now, I shouldn't think any industry uses a Hoffman press today.

16:26Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:That's why I wanted to make sure I knew what it was. So in 1974, you left and you started your own business.

16:34James Reed:I started my own manufacturing business called J &J Fashions, supplying who else but Marks and Spencer.

16:40Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So you had left on good terms, obviously.

16:42James Reed:I left on very good terms. In fact, they gave me a golden handshake, which was very nice. In fact, I actually left on the Christmas of 73. And we opened our doors to our factory January 74, which you're far too young to remember. but that was the days of Edward Heath and Harold Wilson and we had a three-day week.

17:03Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:No, I do remember. Actually, yeah, I do remember. Yeah, it wasn't a great time probably to start a business.

17:10James Reed:It was a terrible time to start a business. You could only work for three days a week.

17:14Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So how did you deal with that? I mean, what happened?

17:16James Reed:Well, what happened was my husband was also a very large manufacturer to M &S and he had a factory nearby that had a generator. So So he would use the generator for the two days that he wasn't working. And then I would borrow the generator for the two days that we weren't working.

17:34Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Oh, so it was on a truck, wasn't it?

17:35James Reed:On a truck.

17:36Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So what did you make?

17:38James Reed:My first contract was ladies' trousers.

17:41Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Ladies' trousers. Yeah. So describe them. What did they look like?

17:44James Reed:If I say fit and flare, would that mean? Flared trousers. Flared trousers.

17:48Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yeah, I'm thinking flared trousers. What material?

17:51James Reed:Crimpling.

17:52Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Crimpling.

17:52James Reed:Crimpling crepe. And people love these, I imagine. And the fastest colours were navy and black.

17:58Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. So this was sort of something people would wear daily.

18:01James Reed:Absolutely. Trousers were coming into people's wardrobes. They were new. Because women didn't wear trousers before. Women didn't wear trousers.

18:10Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So you've revolutionised women's fashion.

18:11James Reed:Well, I always remember when we were at M &S, going back to M &S, and again, Teddy Seaf came in and he said, and trousers were selling incredibly well. I said, well, why are you girls not wearing trousers? Because we weren't. I said, well, we're not allowed to. He said, well, from today on, you are allowed to wear them. I want to see you all in trousers.

18:31Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:That's good.

18:32James Reed:So that's when, that would have been, I suppose, about 1970, 71. We were allowed to wear trousers.

18:38Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So that gave you an idea this was something that might be happening everywhere. And then you grew that business and you ended up with several factories.

18:46James Reed:We finished up in the end with 12 factories. We started our first factory in the northeast in Wallsend. And we grew, we finished up. Newcastle. Newcastle, that's right. We ended up with about eight factories there. We were in Sunderland, Blythe, along the whole coast.

19:01Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So Newcastle was your base.

19:03James Reed:Newcastle was our base.

19:04Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right.

19:05James Reed:And then we then branched into Yorkshire.

19:08Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So what made you successful? I mean, because you became, I think, Businesswoman of the Year. I did. Clico, that smart champagne brand. Absolutely. Gave you the accolade.

19:16James Reed:And I still get my champagne every year on my birthday.

19:19Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Oh, they still send you? Oh, credit to them for that. so you were obviously very successful in this period well it was a very exciting time again

19:28James Reed:because 70s was a very prosperous time in the UK and you know I had a wonderful relationship with Marks and Spencer and I was able to develop that relationship from being a buyer there knowing what the marketplace wanted to becoming a manufacturer so what you've just described is an interesting

19:46Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:opportunity i think for many people is to become a supplier to your current company you know if you're working somewhere what what might be helpful to your current employer that you might be able to supply to them because when my father started this business in 1960 he recruited for Gillette for instance which is where he used to work oh right well there you are he also left on

20:07James Reed:very good terms so it's a very similar scenario yeah if you can leave on good terms and become

20:12Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:a supplier to a company you work for that's maybe a good way to get going because they also value it

20:17James Reed:because they know that you know what they want and how they operate and therefore you know their standards i'll tell you a funny story with my first factory so i'm not going there and it's all got it's a warehouse on an industrial site at walls and so it's got to be painted so i did a color board i got my colors sorted out and i with the builder and i decided the walls are going to be this color and when i go up there they're not the same color they were a bright white and i wanted like a cream so he said to me but so i said well it's wrong he said well it doesn't matter it's only a factory i said it may only be a factory to you but it's my factory and i want the colors the way i chose them so can you please change this color i don't think anyone had ever

21:04Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:spoken to him like that before but the colors were changed yes absolutely because bright if

21:10James Reed:If you're looking at bright white walls, it's very bad on your eyes. You want something softer, much softer, because you've got the bright lights on all the time.

21:18Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yeah.

21:19James Reed:So, yes.

21:20Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So how many people worked in that factory?

21:22James Reed:When? In the beginning or the end? Oh, in the Walls End. I suppose we started off with one line, because when you're in production, you have lines of machines. So we started off with one line, gradually we built it up. And I suppose we probably finished up with about 100 in that factory.

21:36Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:so what what made you open separate factories rather than just get a bigger factory well

21:41James Reed:first of all it was the space i mean factories take up a lot of room because you've got to have a machine and then you've got to have your pressing units at the bottom and you're packing it's a lot of footage required to manufacture garments it's not like you're manufacturing cans of soup you need a lot more room a lot of room so you need a lot of room for one lot of A lot of space, a lot of space. And it was better. I mean, if you get too big, it's much more difficult to control than if you've got a system where, say, you've got eight or ten lines in a factory, you have a supervisor on each line, you have the merchandise being made in sections through the line, and then it comes to the bottom, it gets pressed, it gets packed.

22:22James Reed:We just found that was a better way of front. Most of the factories were similar sizes, actually, if I think about it. Around 100 people. Yeah, around 100 people. Some were more. We had some more.

22:33Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yeah. So what other items did you make?

22:36James Reed:Well, we finished up making everything in ladies' wear. We made dresses, skirts, obviously. Had to make skirts. Trousers, leisure wear, blouses.

22:48Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So all ladies' wear.

22:49James Reed:All ladies' wear. No knitwear. We never touched knitwear.

22:52Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right.

22:52James Reed:We never touched men's wear, but we covered all of it. And we didn't touch coats. We didn't touch coats, but we did everything else.

23:01Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:so you you built this business up over an almost 20 year period and then sold it i believe very successfully in 1992 that's right why did you sell it or what was your sort of what was your

23:13James Reed:strategy around that strategy was that um we'd grown our business and we'd done my husband had done a couple of takeovers as well because it was very difficult to grow organically so we took over two other companies and we were you know at the end of the day we were made an offer we couldn't refuse we had a very successful ladies wear clothing business we were very design orientated we were making merchandise that was selling incredibly well so we had something we were innovators therefore we had something that was very attractive to our competitors right so who who bought the business a company called claremont who were a public company but they you know to have a design is a very expensive part of a business because you have to employ designers and you have to travel it's not it's not in it it's you have to invest a lot of money to have good design which we did and they were more into um they were much more into mass big production they wanted to cut costs so they cut the design element down so they cut the innovation out of the business and when things get difficult if you haven't got new merchandise coming through

24:26Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:you suffer so after they bought your three years after they bought our business they went bust really yeah so that must have been sad for you it was sad but you know my husband said to me

24:37James Reed:love me you don't love your business so i mean we i walked away that's easy to say it's hard to do

24:45Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:probably. What was it?

24:47James Reed:I'd been in the business. I had the business now 20 years. I was very happy to walk away. I'd done an awful lot in that time. Since I'd left school and worked for Marks and Spencer, then I'd ran a business. And I was quite happy. This offer came along. It was a very good offer. So I was happy to walk away. Of course, I was sad when they messed the business up. But equally, I knew they were going to mess it up. Because if you don't invest in design, you're in trouble.

25:23Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Well, what you just said about innovation is so important to any business.

25:26James Reed:Any business.

25:27Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:If you're not innovating, you become irrelevant.

25:29James Reed:I always remember when we bought this leisure wear factory and suddenly, you know, because I remember the start of leisure wear, of leggings and it all, you know, all happening. and we took into M &S a pair of leopard skin leggings and they looked at them in shock and horror, whatever. Again, we did a trial. Now I'm on the other side. I'm the manufacturer doing the trial. Well, we started to do a trial originally of 100 dozen. Fine. We sold in that one season 6 ,000 dozen pairs of these leggings. You can imagine how profitable that was for both of us.

26:08Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yes. Yes. So you were still innovating, right?

26:12James Reed:Oh, very much. That's how the business grew. Of course. Our business grew from being one line in a factory in Newcastle to employing 3 ,000 people because we innovated. And I was very good at innovating, as was my husband. He was brilliant on fabrics and textiles. And between us, we were an amazing team.

26:32Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:When you say I was very good at innovating, what made you very good at innovating? How do you think about innovation? How do you go about it?

26:39James Reed:We used to go to America about three or four times a year as a supplier to look at the shops. Because the Americans were brilliant at taking high couture fashion and making it very commercial. And we'd pick up and buy merchandise and copy it.

26:55Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Just have a look.

26:56James Reed:Have a look. Absolutely. And we pick. I have a very good eye for seeing what's going to sell.

27:02Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So being out there, really looking at what's available, what's going on.

27:05James Reed:Absolutely. So important. And America in that time, in the 70s and 80s, were the forerunners. Their stores were wonderful. They had amazing merchandise. So we copied. Yeah.

27:18Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Well, we've had other guests on the podcast who've done very well in business saying exactly that.

27:22James Reed:I mean, we've sued a few times. But anyway, you always settled. Sued a few times.

27:28Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:That was a part of the cost of doing business. Look, absolutely.

27:31James Reed:Absolutely. So, as I say, you have to innovate. As you say, today you have to innovate. I mean, look at Steve Jobs and Apple.

27:41Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yes. It didn't do so well when he wasn't there. No, when he came back.

27:46James Reed:It's an amazing company.

27:48Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:It certainly is. So what do you think about these days? Very few companies manufacture clothing in Britain. What's changed? Why is that?

27:58James Reed:Because it was cost. I mean, at the tail end, before we sold out, we were manufacturing abroad as well. So we still had our big factory place in the UK, but we'd gone to Portugal, where we were manufacturing denim dresses. We'd gone to Morocco and we'd gone to Hong Kong.

28:16Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And you were doing that because it was becoming more and more expensive. Because it was more and more.

28:20James Reed:And also, if you wanted a garment that had a lot of work content in it, we couldn't afford it in our own factories because we couldn't pass that on to the retailer.

28:30Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So that was because of labor costs primarily, was it? So it became more and more expensive to employ people. and the customers wouldn't entertain paying more for the product?

28:38James Reed:No, well, the client wouldn't. Yeah, your customer wouldn't entertain paying more.

28:42Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Your customer would be the retailer in this case.

28:44James Reed:The retailer. And also other manufacturers are going abroad as well. Therefore, we had to compete with them.

28:49Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So this was a trend that you had to go with because if you didn't, you'd go out of business. So that was sort of globalisation occurring, I suppose.

28:56James Reed:Exactly, and that was another reason. It was a perfect time to sell out.

28:59Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right.

29:00James Reed:Because I know that manufacturers spend their life of chasing, going from one country to another to find the cheapest production.

29:07Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So you sort of saw the writing on the wall?

29:08James Reed:We saw the writing on the wall.

29:10Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:I saw the writing on the wall. So then, coming to your third career. My third career. Third amazing career, I want to say, because it is amazing. You took a complete pivot and did something different. What happened and why did you do that?

29:24James Reed:Well, there's always a reason that things happen. I mean, my husband, we were enjoying retirement. We were traveling. We were doing lots of wonderful things. and life was good sadly my husband developed a heart condition he developed something called heart failure and we went to see his cardiologist who really gave him weeks to live it was as black

29:45Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:and white as that sorry just to interrupt you with that what is heart failure heart failure

29:51James Reed:is when it can occur three different ways it can occur if you have a heart attack It can occur if you have something called cardiomyelopathy or it can occur for no reason. And it's when the heart is a muscle. So when you have heart failure, the heart becomes enlarged and it can either be a heart attack or one of the other issues that can cause it. A virus can cause it. So therefore, when the heart becomes enlarged, it can't pump as well as it did before it was enlarged. Therefore, the body builds up fluid. And that's what heart failure is, where you get fluid building up in your lungs. You find people with heart failure have swollen legs.

30:41James Reed:You become very breathless. You can't walk upstairs. It's very, very debilitating.

30:47Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And he's sort of developed this condition.

30:49James Reed:My husband developed this condition. And the only treatment other than a heart transplant is medication. And that just, it helps, but it certainly doesn't cure. Right.

31:03Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So you were in this situation.

31:06James Reed:We were in this situation. What did you do? Well, we went to see my husband's cardiologist and he said, you know, he gave us the bad news that things were very grim. But he said he had recently been to a presentation given at Barthes Hospital by a young cardiologist called Dr. Anthony Mather, who presented a paper on something that was called stem cell therapy. and this treatment was happening in Germany in Frankfurt where they were taking a patient's own stem cells and injecting them back into their heart so sorry to keep asking to explain things what is a stem cell oh right I'm not I must explain to anybody listening I'm not a medical person no no but just a heads up what is it just as opposed to any other cell yeah the whole body is full of stem cells and you've got millions of stem cells in your body you've got them in your blood, you've got them in your bone, and you've got them in your muscle.

32:04James Reed:So that's what stem cells are. Your body is full of them. And this science that they were talking about in Germany, where they were taking, extracting stem cells from the patient's body, and with heart failure, they'd worked out that the best place to take stem cells from was from the bone, from the bone marrow. and they would then treat these stem cells in the laboratory, clean them and infuse them and then inject them back into the patient's damaged heart. And they had scientific proof that by injecting them back into the damaged heart, it started to regenerate that damaged heart.

32:44Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:That sounds amazing. So they were literally injecting the heart with stem cells?

32:49James Reed:Yes, yes.

32:49Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:And these were stem cells that had been harvested from another part?

32:52James Reed:Yes, and they were their person's own stem cells. right and this was new science brand new nobody like you i didn't know what stem cells were either

33:01Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:i mean none of us knew we'd never heard of them right it was so new we're talking now about 2003 so we're talking about 23 years ago so this this cardiologist back in 2003 atst bart's hospital here in london shared this information but then you as i understand went to germany well he told

33:20James Reed:as it was happening in Germany. And Ian, my husband, no wasn't in his vocabulary at all. He never understood what the word no was. So he said, well, we've got to go. So Anthony said, okay. So he said, I want to go tomorrow. Anyway, by the next week, we all went, Anthony Mather came with us. We were on a plane to Germany, to Frankfurt, where my husband had the treatment. Right.

33:46Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:And how long did that take?

33:47James Reed:The treatment itself, He was in hospital for two days, that's all.

33:52Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And what was the result?

33:53James Reed:The result was amazing. When we came home, prior to going to Germany, he hadn't been able to walk up the stairs because stairs are one of the big testing things when you have heart failure. Within about two weeks, he was walking up the stairs. It was a miracle. It was like a light switch going on. It was unbelievable.

34:11Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So then based on this amazing result, you decided to set up a charity.

34:16James Reed:Well, it was Ian, really. He was so incensed that, because we were with Anthony, when you travel with somebody, you spend a lot of time and you have conversations and it evolved that there was no money in the UK going for this research. Right. And Ian was appalled. He thought it was terrible that, you know, it was such an amazing thing that had happened to him that there was no money for pioneering this treatment in the UK. so he said to Anthony how much do you need to start start this trial here in the UK so and I think he was being quite flippant actually he said oh I need about six million so this is 2003's for so Ian said I'll get it for you and he did so he raised six million and set up a charity to do this we set up the charity first and then we raised the money and the charity is called the Heart Sells Foundation the Heart Sells Foundation yes that was founded by you and Ian that's right initially raised six million for this research yeah and when so that went to some bar the treatment was happening at some bars yes but we say we have the most amazing relationship with some bartholomew's hospital because we're a charity funding this treatment we've been doing it we've been working with them now for 21 years and we don't put the money into a pool that gets just spread around.

35:38James Reed:We're only paying for what they are treating. We pay for the technician that's dealing with it. It's a direct payment and it's working brilliantly.

35:47Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So how's the treatment evolved and developed since 2003?

35:51James Reed:Well, they're obviously fine-tuning it as it's gone on. I mean, we now have a situation where we're treating, we did our three gold standard trials, which were very successful, and papers were published.

36:02Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So what's the gold standard trial?

36:04James Reed:What's the gold standard trial?

36:06Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Sounds like an important trial.

36:07James Reed:This is an important trial. We did three trials. We did one trial. They're called gold standard because it's the technique and the way they have to do them. But one trial was treating patients who'd had a heart attack. So when they were rushed to A &E, they were given the opportunity of having stem cells. The second one was patients who'd had a heart attack and developed an enlarged heart. And the third trial was where patients for no reason developed something called cardiomyelopathy, which again is heart failure, but there's no reason. They haven't had a heart attack, they haven't had a stroke.

36:43James Reed:It's just suddenly happened. And that tends to be much younger people. So we've done those three different trials.

36:51Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:And the results?

36:52James Reed:The results were excellent. Right. I don't know whether you've had a chance to look at any of our case studies, but when you go on our website and you look at our case studies, the results are unbelievable.

37:03Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:so people who are interested in this how do they find you jennifer well they find us if they go on

37:09James Reed:our website which is the heart cells foundation.com and you look on there you'll find all the information you need you can register with us and we will contact you and providing you tick all the boxes you'll be able to receive this amazing treatment so tick all the boxes in fact

37:27Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:you're a sufferer of heart failure of some form or other but you've medically got to tick the boxes

37:31James Reed:because you may have other conditions as well so i'm not a medical person but they have to go through our whole medical system they have to have scans to make sure that they're suitable right and this is available to people this is available free of charge well the heart cell foundation fund it it costs about 12 000 pounds to treat a patient but we fund it yes fantastic and and well thank

37:56Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:you and congratulations for doing that that sounds fantastic so you're now as i understand it seeking to expand this service and raise more money well what would more what ian's dream was that this

38:07James Reed:this treatment should be available across the uk in every national health hospital not just where it's now available at BART. So to be able to roll it out across the country in all the various national health hospitals, we now have to get that approved by NICE. We now have to do a larger trial. So to do the larger trial, we have to raise 8 to 10 million pounds because we have to recruit about 600 patients to do this trial. And we won't just do it at BART's hospital. We were doing the trial at different regional hospitals around the country.

38:46Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And when you do the trial, there's a control group. Is that right? So some people aren't given a placebo? Oh, yes. How does that work? And tell us what you're going to do about that.

38:56James Reed:Well, that would be the same thing. Because when you do a trial, you half, say you're doing a trial of 600 patients, 300 will have the placebo and the other 300 will have, as I call it, the real deal.

39:08Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So some of them think they're getting the treatment.

39:10James Reed:No. Yeah, they don't know.

39:11Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:They don't know. They don't know.

39:14James Reed:This is the way the medical system in this country works. It's been constructed. I think it's universal, actually. I don't think it's just in the UK. I think it's everywhere. But when you do these medical trials, half the recipients have to have a placebo, will receive the placebo. So they don't know.

39:31Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right.

39:32James Reed:And then it's only when the trials get unblinded. And even, say, Professor Anthony Mather, he wouldn't know.

39:40Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right.

39:41James Reed:Nobody knows.

39:42Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So how long does the trial take?

39:44James Reed:Well, it depends. I think we probably took, we unblocked them probably after a year.

39:51Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. So years worth of data.

39:54James Reed:But then that patient will be being checked up all through that year. They'll be coming back for checkups just to see what their heart infraction was. Yes.

40:04Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Oh, I wish you every success with that. That's an amazing story. um is there anything you would say looking at the health system more widely would be welcome i mean lots of things you could think of i imagine well i think one has i think the national health when it works is brilliant and i think our relationship with bart's hospital has been amazing we're we're working with a national health hospital we're a private charity we have this incredible relationship and i would love to if you ever had the time to come down to parts and

40:42James Reed:see the heart unit there it is amazing it is state of the art it's probably the best heart center in

40:48Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:europe it is brilliant i'd love to do that thanks for the invitation and we'll organize that for you

40:53James Reed:this year but it is so my experience of working with them has been amazing i know there are lots of problems and we hear about whatever but i can't i can't really express an opinion on it because i've not been involved in it so but so looking back on your career you know starting a

41:12Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:charity i imagine is different from starting a business or is it similar i mean how did you

41:16James Reed:i mean we started this charity on the back of a cigarette packet i mean it um my husband went to germ ian went to germany had the treatment came back felt a million dollars and somehow he got hold of a journalist don't ask me I can't even remember how he connected with her called Marianne Powers who wrote for the Daily Mail and she thought this story was amazing and we got two she was going to write a two-page editorial for us in the Daily Mail and at that time we didn't even have a name for the charity so she said well you've got to get a name you've got to get registered you need a board of trustees all these things were thrown at us and we just did it I mean we somehow you know we had a very dear friend who happened to be a high court judge who lived across the road he became a trustee the accountant became a trustee so you put this together quickly we cobbled it together very very quickly because she said when i when this article gets published you're going to have so much money pouring in that you've got to have a charity you've got to be a registered charity so we started to register a charity and then we couldn't get a bank account right but then we found a friendly banker at hambrows and he opened a bank account for us it was all done on the back of a back of a cigarette packet but the the story the journalist was going

42:33Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:to write was a real impetus to getting everything else put in place so much money poured in oh i'll tell you another story that evolved from so communication is again important exactly

42:42James Reed:communication is so important so um so she did and she did two two page editorials that's quite had something to have so she did one initially when Ian was going to Germany then she did another one about six months later after he'd been to Germany and as I said the money just poured him but winding the clock forward after the trials had now started and we had what we called a patient's gathering where a lot of the patients were invited down to Barts and it was the day a lot of the trials were being unblinded and this woman came up to me she said she gave me a big hug and a kiss she said I can't thank you enough she said when we read your first article of the Daily Mail we decided we're going to sell our house and my husband's going to Germany to have this treatment and then the second article came out and we read about this wonderful charity that you set up and that it was all going to happen at Barts we applied and my husband was treated she said I have my husband still with me today but we still have our house and so I cannot thank you enough so we both finished up crying i mean she was crying i was crying it was very emotional very very emotional and that's that's amazing so but i do think communication is important at every level i think if you have to ask me one thing young people really should try and establish learn today is how to communicate with people so when you when you look at the charity now

44:16Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:is different from a business in important respects. But how would you measure success when you evaluate the charity?

44:23James Reed:I think I look at two. First of all, it's the wonderful families I meet. Because when you have something like heart failure, it's not just the patient that's affected, the whole family's affected. And I meet the families and I hear their stories. And it's very, very humbling, actually, when you hear how their lives have changed and what you've been able to do with them. and i also find it very satisfying when i see the checks rolling in so on that measure you can still measure income absolutely i mean you know i'm very on top of the financial side of things because you know we have to the compassionate unit takes about half a million pounds a year

45:00Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:to run and we have compassion unit is the one that reaches out that the compassion is the one

45:05James Reed:that's operating now right that's running on a weekly basis where we treat people work where we treat patients from all over the country it's not a trial it's just a regular unit right um whereas the the new trial that we're going to do where we need to raise the eight million pounds well that will be a trial where half the patients will have the placebo and the other half will have the real

45:27Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:deal right and i suppose the other measure of progress or success is scientific progress of

45:33James Reed:course i mean and you've seen that well we've seen it and stem cells are now being used across the board not just for heart failure although it's the most advanced for heart but it's being looked at for macular degeneration liver disease all sorts of things yes science moves it science

45:48Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:doesn't stop no that's very satisfying so just looking at your career as a whole these three different amazing careers chapters let's call them um you've lived through several reinventions of yourself from fashion to philanthropy what what connects what if anything connects those

46:08James Reed:chapters for you well i think the first and second chapter connected very easily because i went from one scenario to another and i have marks and spencer in common the third one just happened by default but again i put the same energy into running or chairing the heart cell foundation as i did to running a business i have meetings i've had three zoom meetings before i've come here to have this lovely conversation with you today, James. That's two more than I've had. And I like Zoom meetings because I can see the person. I am a visual person. I really am.

46:41Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:You prefer that to talking on the phone?

46:43James Reed:Yeah, I prefer that. Talking on the phone's okay. But when I'm talking to our office, I do it always on Zoom. I like to connect. Right.

46:52Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So the common theme I'm hearing maybe is energy.

46:57James Reed:I've got a lot of energy.

46:58Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:i'm saying that and you and you've said i mean i've done my homework you've said you never want

47:04James Reed:to retire no i never want to retire i just i'm not somebody that no i i like doing things i like having something to aim for i love having a list of jobs to do that i can cross off at the end of the day i get that and i do have a lot of energy i really do yeah i can see so you know this is a

47:24Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:this is an important theme energy what i mean what do you do personally if i might ask you to ensure that you are fit and energetic and feel up for the day is there anything any advice you

47:33James Reed:can give all of us i've always believed in some form of exercise i mean it depends on you know what you're able to do so what do you do well i have a back issue so i'm quite limited but i do pilates and i have a physio who comes twice a week and i think walking is very important i think i If there's an easy way to go somewhere or a longer way to go somewhere, I take the longer way. And I think going up and down steps is very important.

47:56Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Just moving.

47:57James Reed:Moving, moving. I think it's really, I think sitting all day in front of a screen, it can't be good for you.

48:03Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:No. It really can't be. So keep moving. Keep moving. That's your message. Excellent. And what sort of impact would you hope to have over the next decade in terms of the work that you're doing now for the next generation?

48:16James Reed:What we're hoping is that we get this phase three trial up and running, because that will be amazing. That will be fulfilling Ian's dream that this treatment will be available across the UK. Because heart failure is one of the biggest killers in this country. It's far bigger than any cancer. It really is very, very, it's very debilitating. It affects the whole family. It also affects the economics of the country, because people with heart failure cannot work.

48:44Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Yes.

48:45James Reed:and that's the other thing we found so amazing is that so many of our patients now have gone back to work right and that's brilliant isn't it a it's very satisfying for them but it's also good for

48:57Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:the country it doesn't sound i think you just said that it was 12 000 pounds a person it's not

49:02James Reed:expensive it doesn't sound ridiculous expensive at all so to make that more widely available and i mean the hospital time is minimal and we now also have some patients that don't they'll go if they

49:13Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:live nearby they won't even stay in hospital right so it's and it's it's non-invasive you

49:19James Reed:get no rejection i mean when you have a heart transplant which costs i think a four it costs about 300 000 pounds a heart transplant you've got the chance of rejection whereas this you don't

49:29Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:so this is this is something to prevent that absolutely i also work along i mean you're very

49:35James Reed:restricted you only have about a hundred a hundred heart transplants a year right well you have to have someone else's heart absolutely and you don't always have a match you know you have to you may have a heart but it may not be a match for you yeah so this is a good route to go so this i mean i think stem cells are the biggest medical breakthrough of the 21st century it's really going to revolutionize so many different illnesses i mean looking back over your remarkable life and

50:05Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:career is there anything you would like to advise or recommend your young self from what you've

50:12James Reed:learned in the journey since you were 20 well when I look back on what I've done I'm amazed at what I've done and how I didn't have any fear when I think of what I was doing in my 20s I was a kid but I didn't really have any fear whatsoever I feel that anything I wanted to do I was able to do

50:29Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:so it sounds like you know you you would have recommended to your younger self carry on in a Fearless fashion.

50:34James Reed:Absolutely. But I think when you're young, you don't have fear. It's like if you learn to ski when you're young, you're fearless. When you learn to ski at my age, which was 40, it wasn't the same scenario.

50:45Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:No.

50:46James Reed:But I do. When I look back and I think what I did in my 20s, it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. But I think a lot of that was because I was very fortunate to be in that position that I was in where I was dealing with very senior business directors who had a lot of confidence. They felt very... What's the word I'm looking for? They felt... They had a lot of confidence in us. They thought we were... I mean, it takes something when you take a big public company and they get rid of all their senior buyers and put young kids in their 20s in that position. You've got to have a lot of courage to do things like that.

51:25Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:They were pretty fearless too.

51:26James Reed:They were very fearless. They were very fearless.

51:28Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:So there's a buccaneering spirit we're getting here.

51:31James Reed:Buccaneering, that's the word. That's what we need to hold on to. That's it, absolutely. Buccaneering spirit that every entrepreneur should. But you see, I always feel that my solution now is there's always a solution to any problem. Problems occur, they do for me in various ways. There's always a solution. And we can always find that solution.

51:53Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Often through innovation.

51:54James Reed:Through innovation, absolutely.

51:56Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Well, I wish you every success with that. I really hope that trial is up and running soon and that we're able to extend this wonderful innovation and service to a lot more people.

52:05James Reed:Well, thank you very much for giving me your time today and explaining what I'm doing. And I hope you'll accept my invitation to come to BOTS.

52:16Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Now, I always ask two questions at the end, Jennifer, of all my guests. And so I'm going to ask you the first question is, because we love Mondays at Reed, what is it that gets you up on a monday morning what is it that gets me up in the morning well i

52:31James Reed:always have early appointments deliberately because i'm not the best at getting up early so if i have a nine o 'clock meeting in my diary i have to be up for it and i have to be ready for it i mean i always do my hair i always put my makeup i always get dressed i'm so old-fashioned even when we were in lockdown i did that every morning well good for you it's important to

52:51Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:upholds standards.

52:52James Reed:I think it is. Standards, I think, are terribly important. That was something else I learned at M &S, standards.

52:58Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Right. And my last question, which is an interview question from my interview book, Why You, is where do you see yourself in five years' time?

53:08James Reed:Well, I'd like to still be here in five years' time. I don't know. I'd like to, well, first of all, the trial will be up and running then, definitely in five years' time. And we will have made enormous progress and it would be much more well known than it is currently um and me personally just doing more of the things i enjoy doing i mean i i love going to the i'm very involved with the art world which i enjoy i play bridge i've got a lot of interest as well as as well as my charity

53:36Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:very good well i wish you all the very best with all of those things thank you for coming in thank

53:41James Reed:you for inviting me today it's been a real pleasure i so enjoyed the conversation me too it's been lovely thanks thank you

53:51Jenifer Rosenberg OBE:Thank you, Jennifer, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reid or the Heart Sells Foundation, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.

54:20Thank you.