75. How to calculate what you're worth in the job market | Leanne Appleton

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.

0:28Welcome to All About Business Shorts, where we share practical advice you will actually use. In this episode, we're tackling a question almost everyone worries about. How to achieve a good salary when starting a new job. I'm joined by Leanne Appleton, one of our top read consultants, who advises candidates on salary expectations and negotiations every single day. We'll talk about knowing your worth, understanding what's fair, and why the best offer isn't always the highest number. If you want to avoid underselling yourself or overpricing yourself out of opportunities, this episode is for you.

1:10Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to introduce our spring shorts season. This is a new take on All About Business, where I've invited recruitment specialists to come and talk to me about things that are really important to people in their work and careers. And I couldn't be more happy than to see Leanne Appleton in the studio today. Leanne is a senior recruitment manager with us at Reed. She's in her 20th year at the company. And she's a real expert on something that's going to be really of great interest to a great many people. And that That is how to achieve a good salary when you're applying for a job.

1:48I mean, money talks, money matters, people care about it. And it's often a sensitive subject. You know, people are worried necessarily to ask for more or achieve what they believe their worth. It does. And you're going to help guide us here, Leanne. I'll do my best. So welcome. Thank you for coming in all the way from Bristol to talk to me this morning. I mean, so what should someone be thinking about when they're applying for a job and they're thinking, what am I worth? What sort of salary might I achieve here? That's quite an open question. And what I would say is try and take the emotion out of that decision.

2:24It's not what you think you deserve. It's actually about your capability and experience in the market and placing yourself correctly. And I think candidates, there's a lot of insights out in the market. and to assess their actual capability and where they should pitch themselves has to be done correctly. And I think a lot of candidates at the beginning, if it's a direct applicant, don't normally necessarily have those conversations. If they work and engage with a partnership of a recruiter, they can navigate and take that kind of pain point out of it and help them on that journey to achieve the best package.

2:55But I think in terms of assessing their ability and how to pitch it, there's so many tools to our disposal to allow them to understand and get their benchmarking correct um shall i tell you a few few ways you said a lot there that i i quite like to sort of just sort of start to investigate so take the emotion out of it yes i mean that's easy to say and often hard to do it really is how do you do that to start with look we all we all work to have a good life and we have bills to pay and we've got lovely things that we want to do but candidates Candidates have to take the emotion of what they think they deserve when they don't, if they don't understand.

3:33For example, I registered a candidate recently that been in post for 10 years, never worked with another business before. They didn't know there were. So when they came to me and asked, I actually don't know what the market is detailing for me. Please, can you help me establish and understand what my market worth is? So it was a bit of a deeper delve. But then there are other candidates who come in, all guns blazing, saying, I've seen this job paying 50 ,000. I'm on 40. I want the 50, when actually we have to have an educated conversation about, let's go through CV history, career aspirations and goals, and break it down.

4:07What can you actually do? What's your experience? It's about demonstrating worth and capability, and being able to articulate that to be able to get that negotiation power. So you as a recruiter who's been in the market for two decades has a lot of information at your fingertips. Just a little bit. Which you're using, hopefully, helpfully. So, I mean, it seems self-serving, it is. But for a candidate to have a recruiter alongside them is actually very helpful in these discussions with a potential employer. I think it's advantageous. I think it's a real benefit. I think those that go direct to the market, it's not a seamless process.

4:41Let's be honest, looking for a job is incredibly daunting. It could be that they've gone through redundancy and they're feeling very vulnerable. Or it could be that they just want to strive and they're being under-recognized in their current firm. So actually working in partnership with a specialist recruiter who lives and breathes that market space, they're only going to get good things from that. So I would, for example, I do bespoke benchmarking, read, have salary guides, which is incredible, some market intelligence information with job boards and LinkedIn insights and salary guides. But actually someone on the ground who knows their space incredibly well is incredibly advantageous and beneficial for any candidate.

5:20So a good ally. And that service is free of charge to candidates. It is, it is. And you want them to get a good job? Of course, I want to go on that journey with them. I want to champion them all the way and I want to take the pain points out of it and make it as seamless as possible. Because it's a daunting process going for an interview and trying to secure a new job opportunity. And I want to take that pain piece away and make it as easy as I possibly can. You talked about benchmarking yourself. Yes. Comparing yourself with the market. What are the key factors someone should be looking at to do that successfully, accurately, usefully?

5:53Well, it depends on, there's a lot of regional differentiators in terms of location. It depends on the role that you do. It goes against skills, experience and qualifications and set to knowledge. So we have to break down exactly what your worth is in terms of being able to identify where we need to pitch your salary correctly. with all the will in the world we all want to earn a hundred thousand pound have a friar parked out front but how are we going to reach those goals and what are your career aspirations to achieve that so we need to kind of take a step back and understand what their expectations are but does it align to the market trends and market worth and what they're going to be realistically going to be able to achieve so that sounds like you know quite a delicate conversation it is it is when you're assessing what someone's worth i mean that is quite i mean you take the emotion out of it but you say to me you're not as worth as much as you thought you were well we don't say that directly you don't say well how do you deal with that i think the one thing that i pride myself on is good service and treating candidates as i would want to be treated and understanding their drivers and motivations to either be passively or actively looking in the market and their circumstances.

7:04We've all got bills to pay and salary and base rate is absolutely key and paramount. However, there's a number of key other factors that candidates are important to them, such as benefits, flexible working, you know, a healthy life work balance, as well as that kind of ethos and culture fit. So there's a number of things that candidates need to consider over just salary. So when having a conversation with them and being very delicate in my approach, I want to get them on side. I want to champion them all the way. I want them to understand what their worth is and how we're going to achieve that.

7:36But we always have to have a, what's your current expectation? What's the reasons for? And then I can let them know a bit more market insight of what's realistic. And then we can work together in terms of articulating that through an interview scenario process, and then obviously taking the para way of doing the negotiation. So they don't have to worry about those difficult conversations because talking salary can be very awkward. Yeah. And you can do that for them. Absolutely. This Earth Day, your gift can make double the difference. From the 22nd to the 29th of April through biggive.org, donations to environmental charities will be double.

8:12Earthraise gives you the power to turn your generosity into real, lasting impact. Together we can protect wildlife, restore habitats, and help nature thrive. Visit biggive.org between the 22nd and the 29th of April. Choose a cause close to your heart and make double the difference. Thank you for supporting EarthRate. So how does an applicant know that an advertised salary is actually fair? I mean, often there are sort of bans advertised, or sometimes salaries aren't advertised at all. Absolutely. So how can an applicant or candidate know that they're getting a fair deal? To be honest, job adverts can be very misleading.

8:54It's all based on job titles. someone looks at a job title thinks I can do that it pays£10 ,000 more than my current salary so that's what I should be recognized to earn but I think job adverts as you know there's the lower and upper end it all depends on skills experience and qualifications in the industry and I think when discussing this with candidates we have to identify what they do on a day-to-day basis how it applies and where the essential skills are and to pitch it that that way but I think In my market, I specialize in financial services. We're a bit job buoyant and we're candidate shy.

9:28So candidates actually rule the roost somewhat. So you're looking for more people. Absolutely. These skills are in short supply. Very much short supply. Even my bread and butter business, IFA support roles, for example, used to have five CVs to every job and it'll be filled pretty instantly. Everyone's chomping at the bit now for that kind of caliber because they are the backbone of any thriving IFA business. so and because those candidates know they're in demand they feel that they can warrant a higher salary expectation when actually that's not reality there's some corporate businesses that have very strict structure of salary levels and there's other smaller IFA businesses actually a bit more agile and can be flexible and be accommodating but we need to know where that is about that kind of skill and what's scarce and what's in demand and the trends and that way we can warrant more of a premium pay.

10:20Yeah, so larger companies often have pay layers, don't they? They do. That people need to fit into, which can make negotiation a little less flexible. That's correct. But you're saying smaller ones, you can often get a better deal. No, absolutely. I work with an array of businesses in my industry. I work with a corporate that are very regimented and structured in terms of what they can offer. Smaller outfits have a, you're talking to the man that holds or the woman that holds their purse strings so they've got flexibility if they know that there is an absolute need and this is a sense of urgency in the business and it's a real requirement they will pay over the odds as they may think to get that cans day attraction in but actually what they're going to get is a really good solid candidate that's going to deliver um with what they want and hopefully um reap the rewards and add that instant value So the market you're working in, financial services, you've just described is what I would call a seller's market.

11:20The people applying for jobs in that market have got quite a lot of negotiating power. Do you find that you're in the intermediary in conversations when the employer is saying, I'm offering X, but the candidate is saying, I want Y quite a lot? And how do you achieve an outcome where both are happy? Very much so. I think what's really, really important as a recruiter and speaking to candidates and clients alike is making sure that at the very beginning, we're setting the scene and managing expectations. Obviously, it's really difficult to pitch a candidate a certain salary when there's a banding.

11:54I would obviously benchmark their salary. So I would always we would always discuss and agree what is right according to their needs, as well as the market requirements. but when submitting a candidate forward the real power comes into play once you demonstrate and articulate your worth and capabilities and interview and that's where the negotiation power comes in and that's where we kind of hold the card somewhat and but it's hard to get to that point and my motto in life is if you fail to prepare you prepare to fail and so there are some candidates in the market that can articulate themselves and very well at an interview scenario and that brings great results and there's others that are vastly experienced but just not good in interview situations so it's about understanding your candidate inside out and going on that journey with them to make sure that we can achieve the best outcome yeah often the best candidates are not good at interviews because they haven't had a lot of practice because they've been doing a great job somewhere else absolutely whereas someone who's done lots of interviews might be better at doing absolutely you have to gauge so it's a quite this combination of capability and experience is is what you're looking for and that's key as you say and that's what a an individual needs to evaluate.

13:01Do you find that, you know, employers are often lowballing salaries because they haven't been in the market for a while, or they're not aware that this is an area where there's a lot of competition now for people, and you have to talk them up somewhat? You might be talking some applicants down a little, but you have to talk the employer up to explain, you know, you're not going to get anyone at that if you advertise the job at that level. Indeed. Unfortunately for me, that's a common conversation I have to have, and it's an educated piece that I have to deliver to them. In all the world, I'll ask them what their requirements are, what's the reason, what's the pain points, what happens if someone isn't in situ, what's going to happen, who's going to deal with the workload, what's the cost involved.

13:43And when you really pull things down in that regard, they then realize, right, okay, I need to make sure that I'm attracting the right talent into my business. What do I need to pay? And that then goes down to benchmarking I will then in that area let them know of direct competitors to them what their offerings are and we're looking to poach from that same pool they need to be able to grab attention hook line sinker and unfortunately that is an instantly the package on offer not just baseline but actually the benefits the remuneration the career progression prospects and all the nice fluffier things which actually are more important to candidates these days than just a salary.

14:20I mean one of the most common mistakes that candidates make when assessing their salary expectations i think the common mistake is some undervalue and don't know there were and they don't have the confidence to have those conversations um so they just hope that someone's going to take the reins of that and actually those conversations had at the very latter stages when it's a little bit too late and then they feel a bit devalued um i think candidates feel unconfident and feel find it awkward and don't want to miss out on the opportunity by having this conversation from the very get-go so people people were shy about talking about money is that what it is it seems like when you were describing this it seems like a sort of british reserve might be getting in the way of yeah well actually there's a fact 76 percent of clients expect candidates to discuss salary from the very get-go throughout the journey of the recruitment process or through the agency um and that's because it's no longer and should be an awkward conversation it should be something with confidence because that has to manage everyone's expectations and not waste time so i think there are candidates that undersell themselves and don't do that correctly and it's too late by the end of it there are other candidates that actually come oversell and and expect too much and it's about having that conversation with them and trying to set the scene and having that educated conversation saying okay why do you think you're worth that take the emotion about what you deserve but let's kind of put things on the line and why do you believe that salary is achievable and if it isn't achievable let's agree where it should be set and what you need to do to achieve those financial goals in the future.

15:55So with your long experience as a recruiter do you see oversell or undersell more? I think I see oversell and I think that's purely due to the market as I said we're job buoyant candidates shy so they rule the roost somewhat and I think with the job advertisements that are on they're very wide salary bandings And I think if someone thinks, oh, I can do that job, I want to reach that top end straight away, when actually let's get to the kind of nooks and the crannies of your experience, your skills and qualifications, and do they apply? And will it allow you to kind of justifiably get that kind of offering?

16:29Yeah, but aim high must be a good one. Aim high. I mean, you should encourage people to aim high. But I think in some roles there's ceilings. There are some positions there's a ceiling in salary and return. but if you want to earn more money you need to know where your career goals and aspirations are and what you need to do to achieve that so it's a journey they've got to look at short term to medium to long term a bit like the question you've asked me about the five-year plan I think that's really important to understand what someone's motivations are and where their career aspirations are set and they will sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward and I think it has to be a journey it's not a it's not a sprint it's a marathon you really have to understand your market to achieve those goals and get that return.

17:10I remember being told years ago by an experienced recruiter that to get a good candidate to move, you need to pay at least a 10 % premium on the going rate or what they're currently getting. And the follow-up to that was, and the difference between a good candidate and a mediocre one is massive, exponential. So it's worth the investment. It really is. And it does surprise me how so many conversations get stuck here over relatively small amounts of money. Yeah, when I speak to clients and if they are restricted in terms of the offering that they can provide, I ask them what else they can give to a candidate.

17:47Can it be attracted by multiple things? And what we need to do at a time is their motivators and drivers and also then align them to what that client can offer. So it could be hybrid working, flexible working, being a working mum, for example, reader. I'm very fortunate. I've gone through quite a lot, tough time the last couple of years and being a single mum. and I thought I might have had to leave my job. But having conversations with my management team, they said, we know you're worth your weight in gold. You've delivered. You've been with us for a long time. We want to give you the flexibility and I can do school drops, sometimes school pickups and I work around the clock and it allows me to flourish and thrive and I'm very dedicated to the cause and very, very grateful.

18:23So I think the same for clients. They need to look at candidates and what their expectations are and what their drivers and motivators are. So even though salary and package is important, For some, it might be flexible working hours. It might be hybrid dynamic. And that saves time and cost. So we just need to align candidate to client and offering to make sure that both are going to be mutually agreed. Yeah, I think that often gets overlooked. I mean, it's very important to people, especially now, as you say, this opportunity to work flexibly. And we see that a lot, don't we, in candidates saying, I want to have that on the offer.

18:58So it's not all about money. It isn't. I think back in the day, salary was always number one. And it always made me very apprehensive when registering and speaking to candidates. I believe it should be in the top three drivers for looking, but it shouldn't be the be all or end all. I think now more than ever, and one thing that I've done quite prominently over the last couple of years, is not just benchmark. When I work with companies, I don't just benchmark the positions that they're looking to hire and make sure that they're setting the scene and going to attract the right talent. I look at what their remuneration package is what else can you add where where's the added value and that could be the benefits I mean that's interesting to me so so for entrepreneurs or employers listening what are some good things they should be adding to salary multiple come on come on Leanne share share share okay so benefits are really key you know we're all getting older benefits we're all getting older we're all getting older so I think it's long-term security and safety So good pension contribution, good deaf and service.

19:58It's all the healthcare cover. It's genuine career progression prospects with the exam support and actually covering the cost of the study, the material, the study leave, the exam. And then you're doing professional studies. Professional studies. Absolutely. So that can speak volumes because if a candidate has no exams in my industry and then get level four qualified, that can bulk up your salary quite significantly. and that opens up more doors in terms of job opportunities. So you're not hitting a ceiling. You can go into various areas within that business. But it's not just the salary benefits such as pension and healthcare, really good holiday entitlement.

20:39It could even be gift in a few days of Christmas. What's a really good holiday entitlement these days? Well, I wouldn't like to. There's some that are very, very low, but I would say 20. What's very low? Well, I've got some clients that do 20 days. That's the minimum, isn't it? Minimum. But when I speak to them and say that's incredibly low in comparison to what someone else has, sometimes I've been able to navigate and agree and negotiate gifting over Christmas, so they don't need to take that out of their holiday entitlement. So these little changes and shifts can really make a difference, because it makes them feel valued and that they're being accommodated.

21:12This is very useful for companies where money is tight, and that's a lot of companies at the moment, that they have other levers that they can pull to attract really strong applicants. along the lines that you're describing? It's even things like volunteering days. To some that might not be important, but to others it would be. And it's also bonus potential. That's luxury. It's discretionary. But knowing what previously they've done and is this quite common, is bonuses, are those rewards quite common? Are they going to happen? It's also salary reviews. Do they do their salary reviews? When are those salary reviews?

21:47So there's a number of things. So they can promise that? Absolutely, at the very beginning, so they know what they need to work towards. So would they typically do that at the end of a probation period or not? Well, sometimes. Actually, recently I've had clients that have offered a candidate a very competitive salary, but not as much as the candidate wanted. But all the other elements have bolstered on that. And what they've done is they've said, what we'll do is after successful probation demonstrating your worth and capability, we'll review your salary at the end of your probationary period.

22:17And we actually have that written in contract. So then they know they're going to get an increment potentially within six months and then hopefully 12 months later when their annual pay rate is due. And was the candidate satisfied with that? Absolutely. Right. So that's quite a good way of going if you're not quite there in terms of agreeing rate at the beginning. Look at it again after your probation. I think it's really hard. Is that like an extended interview? Absolutely. And I think you've got to demonstrate worthy capability, as I said. You've got to do the do. you can go to an interview and really articulate yourself very well and you know skills and experience all align but actually until you're in you don't really know your full potential and the value you're going to add I don't believe in hit the ground running experience I don't like it when someone wants someone to hit the ground running you could be a power plan in one firm to a power plan into another different back office systems different research tools it might be different advisor contacts so there's a lot of moving parts that allow everyone needs a transitional period a settling in period so i think probations are really important and if you want to um make sure you grab candidates attention have those increments of salary once they're demonstrating where the capability rather than saying there's no pay review um i've always thought the first three months in any job are really tough because you've got to find your way around i mean just to sort of know the people know the systems know the customers absolutely it takes a bit of time to get your feet under the table it really really does and you need to know your audience you need to know what is required what their expectations and job titles i think are quite misleading i think people look at job adverts look at a job title see a salary range think that's what i'm where and actually they've got to look to the day-to-day duties and actually the firm that they're joining Does it align to their ethos, their ethics, their way of working?

24:04Is it an environment where they can thrive? Is it supportive? Do they have the training to allow them to flourish and shine? Or is it a small affair whereby you've got to hit the ground running, as they say, and pick up the pieces without that extra resource and support? Those candidates will really, really struggle. Sometimes some people are suited to one and more suited to the other. Absolutely. It's your job, I guess, to point people in the right direction as best you can. That's incredibly helpful. Is there any last bit of advice you'd give a job seeker on achieving the best salary for them?

24:37I think so. I think one thing I would point out is counter offers. When I speak to candidates, I need to understand that they're active, passive or just keeping an open mind in the market, what their main drivers are. If it's purely salary focus, I really want to kind of understand what that is and get to the deeper depths to understand if there's anything else that we can negotiate. I also then immediately talked to him about counteroffers. I don't want them to be a statistic and I hate using facts. But within six to 12 months of those accept a counteroffer are back in the market because money is a short term fix.

25:12All the underlining factors of the trust is lost. Well, I have a theory about this. You do. If a situation arises where someone who's come to you and been offered a job by one of your clients is then counteroffered by their existing employer, offering them more money. I think the relationship at that point is over, done. Because from the candidate's point of view, they think my employer's been underpaying me. I don't know for how long, but they've been underpaying me if they can now pay me more. And from the employer's point of view, they're thinking, well, this person, they're looking around, they're not loyal.

25:46I don't trust them anymore. The trust is broken. So it's severed, as you just said. It really is. So that's a useful tip for anyone. If you're going to go and get a job offer somewhere and they make you a good offer. Be committed, absolutely. Be committed. And actually, if it is purely money focused, go to your manager have those conversations before you go out to the market and start actually looking for other opportunities have those conversations see if there's any any conversation or any increments that could be had rather than doing it and use as leverage when getting an offer at the end That's a brilliant segue Leanne because my next guest on Spring Shorts is going to talk about how to get a pay rise I did that on purpose So we'll come back to that in the next episode

26:27Thanks very much for coming in I'm going to ask you two questions that I always ask my guests at the end of a podcast. The first is what gets you up on a Monday morning? Apart from my kids at 5.30 in the morning, well, the reason I get up on a Monday morning for work is I want to make an impact. I want to improve lives through work that I do. I want to offer stellar advice and service and proactive support and work in partnership with my clients and candidates. So I like the small wins. I obviously to get the bigger wins, but I I just want to know that I've made a difference to someone's life through the work that I do.

27:01Well, I hope you're able to do that for many years to come. I can see that you're doing that on a regular basis. And my last question from my interview book, Why You? 101 Questions You'll Never Fear Again, Leanne, is where do you see yourself in five years' time? Professionally, as you've just indicated, I'm in my 20th year. Very grateful. Absolutely. I feel very fortunate that I love the job that I do. I've gone through multiple promotions at Reed. I think for me, job security and stability is really important. I'm at a time in my life where I know what I'm good at and I want to continue. Don't change it if it doesn't need fixing.

27:40But I do want to bolster on my team, make sure that we're successful. I want to be the recruiter of choice and I want my reputation to be maintained. And I also want to mentor others and maybe do more podcasts after this experience. You never know. But I just want to be able to deliver my experience through others and make sure that I've empowered them and make a difference. So actually, even though I don't want to be a director, I think I just want to continue to do good work and I'll reap the rewards from that. Well, I certainly hope we can support you in that ambition for many years. Thanks so much for coming in.