76. How to get a pay rise: Salary negotiation that works | Connor Scully

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. Welcome to All About Business Shorts, where we share practical advice you will actually use. In this episode, we're focusing on something that many people want, but few approach well.

0:39How to get a good pay rise in your current role. I'm joined by Connor Scully, one of our top read consultants who advises professionals daily on pay conversations, including when to ask, how to prepare, and what actually works. We'll talk about proving your value, becoming hard to replace, and how to handle the conversation without putting your job at risk. If asking for a raise feels awkward, this episode is for you.

1:12So today on All About Business, in our spring short season, I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm delighted to welcome Connor Scully into the studio and we're going to be talking about how to get a pay rise. How about that? And Connor, I should say, is a senior executive consultant at Reed Specialist Recruitment. He specializes in property and construction, a very busy space, and he works out of our famous Bury Street office. So Connor, thank you for coming down the road to see me here this morning. You've obviously had many conversations with people about this subject. It's something that I get asked about a lot from all sorts of people.

1:55How do I get a pay rise? And so let's begin. How should someone assess whether they're due a pay rise, whether they're due a salary increase? I would always try and think and picture the question as, am I adding significant value to the business? And if that question is yes, then it's probably a good place to start. and am I aligned with the business's goals and targets that we're trying to achieve together? So am I as a worker adding significant value? Exactly that, yeah. Am I adding more value than I'm being paid? It's clearly important for it to be a contributing factor. How do you do that?

2:35I mean, it can be done like quantifiable business impact. So like how much value are you putting in day to day? Are your KPIs met? based on your last review have you exceeded those expectations there's there's various ways in which you can sort of put it together if you're not necessarily in a billing role or a commercial role are you taking on projects that are sort of beyond other people's capabilities that's sometimes where we have that quite difficult question or how can i how can i have that conversation when it's not necessarily financial my impact isn't financial well you you still have targets everyone should have like kpis to me and measurable against the day-to-day job kpi in case people don't know is key performance indicator so this is where the company said you need to achieve x y and z exactly yeah you're banging it nailing it you're doing that and then you know that you're being asked to do more and more yep maybe more difficult things more complex things that maybe you weren't asked to do when you started those are the points you make exactly yeah and uh i had a conversation with someone I know quite recently who was asking me for some advice on this.

3:41And they were clearly being asked to do a bigger job because their employer had realized they're a capable person. And they were being asked to do more and more tasks that were above the pay grade that they had initially joined in. Sometimes it can happen as well when a business is going through some hardships. So say, for example, there's redundancies taking place, some middle management might have been removed, and you're taking up duties that you might not necessarily have been doing before. and you're sort of absorbing those and sort of taking those accountabilities without actually being recognised for them.

4:14It's important to remember them, log them and bring them up in these reviews because it's important that you're recognised for that hard work and the value added piece. Yeah, because the job's changed. It does. So the terms should change accordingly. Exactly. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think that's happening a lot at the moment with businesses adjusting to the difficult economy and regrettably redundancies. 100 % but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be paid paid fairly for the work that they're doing so what's the biggest mistake people make when they go into a pay rise conversation I think the number one for me is not being prepared you've got to know your numbers in terms of if you are in a in a commercial role where it's value added you have to know your numbers and if so you mean a sales job for instance exactly sales or like a commercial manager QS anywhere where there's a number, the number is key.

5:07If it's not that and it's something else, I think it's the business impact. What would happen if I weren't here fulfilling these duties? I think ultimately that is the key. This is interesting. So you say the number is key. So everyone's in a different job by definition. They should be looking for which numbers are the most important drivers in their particular role or business, and they should know them and be able to refer to them when they have this conversation. Yeah, exactly. But what about that just sort of going up to your boss at the wrong moment? Isn't that a problem? Isn't timing important here as well as being well informed?

5:48Timing is crucial. I mean, like the most important thing on this topic is the fact that it's not always going to be the right time because businesses do go through hardship. There's times when there's cutbacks. The business might not necessarily be performing at the level in which it wishes to so being aware of your space and aware of how your team are doing the business is doing in general is so important when asking this topic um yeah it's it's crucial like knowing where the business are in relation to their goals and and knowing whether it's realistic to ask for this this increase i'm thinking more you know it's a busy monday afternoon someone says i want a pay rise you sort of get out of my situation yeah i mean shouldn't we shouldn't we be scheduling these conversations a sort of formal meeting always yes they can be brought up in um reviews periodic reviews monthly reviews quarterly reviews appraisals um so if someone doesn't get i mean that that's good practice that people get reviews but not everyone does do they so they should ask for a review yeah always ask and then say as part of that I'd like to have a conversation about my package.

6:56Yep. So it's good to be up front, is it? Absolutely. Always do it in person as well. I think post-COVID, there's a nervousness around people meeting face-to-face and having that sort of communication line in person. But ultimately, it's the best way to build trust. You can see someone's body language, how they're reacting to your question. And from that, you can see where the conversation's going. and sort of you should then know whether it is likely of that pay rise maybe coming. Okay, so you meet your boss face-to-face in person. Yeah. You tell them that you're doing a really good job. The number is good.

7:37And you say, I'm not getting as much as I feel I should be. And they say, well, I'm sorry to hear that, Connor, but can't do any more for you. At this time or in general? Well, that might be your subsequent question. at this time or in general. I mean, yeah. I mean, it might be. So, I mean, they have different outcomes, those answers. But I was thinking more at this time. So you would say, so how would you respond to that as a pay rise seeking person? I think you need to go into the conversation knowing that there is the potential that it doesn't go the way you want it to because they can't always do.

8:15Otherwise, businesses' profits would just decrease. And also there's lots of other factors involved, like what other people are being paid. Exactly. There needs to be parity, doesn't there? But ultimately, if you're taking on more responsibility that you feel is above and beyond your pay and you're sort of measuring it, you're tracking it and you're being able to evidence the work that you're doing above and beyond where you feel you're paid, then you're in with a good shout. and it's sort of that it's sort of good to be indispensable but it's also it can be quite detrimental to you as well as the person when you go on holiday you don't necessarily want to be always contactable but ultimately sometimes that's what it takes to prove your worth to the business this Earth Day your gift can make double the difference from the 22nd to the 29th of April through biggive.org donations to environmental charities will be double Earthraise gives you the power to turn your generosity into real, lasting impact.

9:16Together we can protect wildlife, restore habitats and help nature thrive. Visit biggive.org between the 22nd and the 29th of April. Choose a cause close to your heart and make double the difference. Thank you for supporting Earthraise. But at what point, you know, if you like your current employer and you like your boss, but you're not getting a pay rise and you're not being paid what you think you're worth at what point do you say i'm going to start looking for another job it's difficult i think like you know your true value and if you genuinely feel like it's fine to like your employees but ultimately you've got a career and you if you really want to carry that and take that somewhere and end if you've got a vision of the destination or the journey you want to go on um it can be hard staying in the same place and no matter how much you like that that employer well would you advocate saying to that employee, you know, I really like working here, I like working with you, but I've got other requirements and I think I'm being underpaid.

10:16If I don't get a payroll, I'll look for another job. Would you advocate being that direct? You could. That's risky though, isn't it? It is, it is. It's absolutely risky. But in certain industries, it's the norm. Like, for example construction. I mean, these conversations happen quite regularly and people are quite abrupt. So they might say no or yes. Or just clear outlines of when those expectations can be met. Like, for example, in construction, I'll use it as an example because it's the market we work in, but if there's a project that's upcoming that know we're going to bring in X amount of a million pounds, then it's more likely that that pay review will be put in and met.

10:52But it just needs to be... So time it with new sort of business initiatives, projects, wins. That's always a good time. Another strategy might be to say, I'd like to do more. Do you come across that? I'm here, I can do more, I'm available, I'd like to be paid more as well. Yeah, exactly that. It's always good to put your hand up. Put yourself forward, put your hand up. Without a doubt. And sometimes it's saying yes without actually saying yes, just doing it. And we see that in, again, in our space, in our office, with people just absorbing sort of those management duties that might not necessarily be asked of, but you just do it.

11:31You take accountability and you sort of, you get on with the day-to-day. and then you remember you remind people keep a note of that exactly yeah and say well look at me what i'm doing now or like what you mentioned there about um you know saying yes yeah almost putting your hand up i want to i want to take on more responsibility so the more i'm talking to you connor the more i'm thinking that there's a this is all about being proactive 100 and dynamic whether it's your contribution to the company or the conversations you're having with your line manager that you're having a sort of live experience of ensuring that you're adding value of course and the more value you add the more you will be paid ultimately that's your message is it it is yeah and it's all about building trust um and that's why again can't stress strongly enough this conversation to take place in person um just because so much can be lost over a screen It's so important to have these interactions in person so you can truly get across how you feel.

12:34So don't ask for a pay rise on FaceTime. I think it's difficult, isn't it? That's what you're saying. I've never done it. It just takes away a little bit of the emotion. We see loads and loads of interviews happening now on Teams, Zoom, over a screen. It's great. It's sort of changed the world, really, hasn't it? But in terms of... But when you're actually working with people, you need to sit with them and this is a conversation. Unless there's a reason why that conversation cannot take place in person, it should be done in person. That's very interesting because that puts asking for a pay rise in quite a small category of conversations that absolutely should be in person.

13:12I'm thinking of others. I mean, there are probably all sorts of things. But there aren't that many that you would say, if you're going to do that, make sure it's in person. Because it can be diluted, can't it? If you bring it up and it's not necessarily a... structured, you know, put in the diary review or anything like that, the message could be lost over a screen. Whereas in person, you can be quite clear and sort of concise with your request and the reasons in which why. And it's secured time, isn't it? When it's in the diary, there's no distractions. People can't come in and interrupt. Like it's very much protected time.

13:47So you've described a situation where an individual is contributing a lot or more. and that's the basis on which they would ask for a pay rise. We also have a situation where just prices are going up. Inflation has been high. What do you suggest people do in that situation? It's a valid point. I think it's always good to know the value you're adding and the cost in which your replacement might be. So being in touch with your market, knowing what competitors are paying for the roles and responsibilities you're taking on, because how do you do that um it's the mark the data's all out there you just got to go and use the web just look online yeah it's all available to you um in five minutes probably yeah and obviously we've got um chat gpt all these ai tools now that can sort of get this information to you even quicker than you could before so yeah if you want to know what the going rate for a quantity surveyor is in milton keynes you can find out pretty quickly and also like the chances are if you're a quantity surveyor you've probably gone to university with individuals of the same ilk you'll be having conversations with them about how they're getting on where they are in their careers and you've just got to be really in touch with your market it's all about being in the center of that market and and knowing where you are in comparison to your peers and being able to relay that to your employer right how do you know if you're better than your peers at your job you just say yes more i think it's also it's more to request to do stuff yeah i think you'll learn more doing that for sure yeah and it's i think um the more you say yes the better opportunities come your way and um people will remember the fact that you've said yes to to all the opportunities you have and and you'll you'll sort of five years down the line you'll be in a completely different place based on people who maybe haven't taken on that responsibility yeah you reminded me of a saying it more often you say yes the sooner you'll be having an adventure i've seen that somewhere i like that saying i remember telling it to my kids and it's true but in the workplace say yes and you'll go further be paid more and have more of an adventure is kind of the message i'm hearing exactly that yeah it's um it's amazing what happens when you when you take on stuff and you look back actually like in your own i look back at my career and and how it's developed over course of time and the majority of opportunities that have come my way have been because I've said yes, taken on a bit more responsibility and sort of developed.

16:18There is a sort of counter view of people say, well, that's not in my job description or that's not what I've been asked to do here. What do you say to them? I'd say it's not necessarily a growth mindset. It depends on what sort of person you want to be. But if you're the sort of person that's going to be asking for a pay rise, I would assume you're fairly confident of being able to secure that because if you've got your ducks in a row and you know exactly what your value add is, the number as we mentioned before and if it's not that, you know, what's being asked of you that's not being asked of other people, you'd be confident enough to go into that conversation if that makes sense.

16:57So if you go into a conversation, you start with some confidence that you might achieve what you want but you get rebutted um and i'm interested in this because how do you come back is is it is it fair to say well what do i need to do to get a pay rise absolutely that's a fair question i think ultimately if you if if reviews aren't a thing in your world it would be good to sort of make sure they are and ask for those to be put in so frequently yeah exactly so i would say in our business we do them sort of monthly but they can be put in quarterly six monthly the pay reviews as a standard are probably done six monthly depending on what your role is but yeah I would say making sure that those are in and reviews are taking place sort of so you want to have a regular conversation where you can raise it again exactly or what about asking for a bonus if something happens that's positive i don't come across i don't think that's a bad idea i'm just thinking about other strategies yeah it's become more and more like um where that's aligned with a business outcome yeah absolutely if it's become more and more relevant in roles which is like fee earning or generating like business development especially in construction like everything's about the the final project and how much that that project is going to generate actually if you know that your role is key in making sure that that project is over the line, then you are more entitled to ask for that bonus.

18:26It depends what the individual's sort of wants are, really. But this point you've made about the cost of replacing somebody, that has to be handled quite delicately, doesn't it? Because, you know, that is real. Typically, it's going to take a bit of time to recruit someone. There's going to be fees involved, potentially. Probably going to have to pay a premium anyway on the salary. but if you push that button too hard you look disloyal and sort of grabby don't you you do yeah you want to try and position it so how do you how do you make sure that sort of someone's aware of that without it being too obvious you don't want it to be an ultimatum no definitely not you're trying to build trust um it's in a you've got to approach the conversation with caution but also as the conversation has gone on this is something that you probably do towards the end of the conversation when you know which way it's going so um you've alluded to the fact that maybe it's not going to happen yet there's a project we're waiting to win that might not necessarily come off if it doesn't it's probably less likely to happen and if that's the case then um you've almost got to picture allow the the individual you're dealing with the hiring manager to picture a world without you in it without saying i'm leaving well you could say something I was just thinking, listening to you, you could say something like, I really want to build my career here.

19:45Yeah. It's a journey together. But that's not saying you're going to do that for sure because this outcome hasn't been... Exactly. It's a partnership. So you want to say, look, I'm in the boat with you and we're rowing together. I just maybe need a bigger oar. I need a bit of help. And these are the reasons why. This is what I've done. This is what I've delivered. And I should be paid in parity with that. Yeah. If one oar is being pulled harder than the other, the boat goes in circles. Well, maybe we all get bigger roles. So that's sort of, that's quite important, isn't it? Is there any other advice?

20:20What advice would you give to an employer when someone says, I think I'm worth more? What would you say to them? Because they may or may not be. How should they approach you? And it's important to like, seriously think about whether that individual is adding significant value. Are they going above and beyond in their role? what would life look like without them? How much is it going to cost to replace that person? Because we all know that, you know, you mentioned earlier about the costs are rising everywhere. Are you going to be able to go into the marketplace and nitpick someone for a lesser salary that will take on the same accountability as this individual is?

21:02It's not a guarantee. There's a lot of like moving factors that you can't confirm without having looking in the market. So it's really difficult. I think the employer should delve into the person's availability, honesty in the conversation, and actually whether they are delivering those deliverables. Yeah. I mean, how much they value them ultimately in this relationship. Exactly, yeah. I mean, and the better the people know each other, the better you'll be able to judge that. 100%. So being close to your team is really important. It's all about that trust piece. And I think the more those reviews are booked in periodically, you've almost got the chance over the course of the year to express if you're feeling a little low or the reasons in why you feel you're taking on more than maybe you should be.

21:50And then it doesn't become as much of a surprise when that person does ask for a pay rise. No, I mean, an employer might say, well, yeah, we're all under a lot of pressure right now, clearly. And I feel that too, Connor. Thanks for mentioning it. Yeah, but it also depends on how much you like the business, how much you like the people you work with. Yeah, sure. And can you see yourself on that journey with that business for a long time? If the answer to that question is yes, then you'll stick at it. And maybe the pay rise will come. Yeah, I don't think people should be crestfallen if they get a no.

22:22No, of course. No, no, no. I mean, I've been on both sides of these conversations, and I've said no to people in the past. But I have often thought, well, if you do X, Y, and Z, or grow in this way, then yeah, sure, let's have another conversation. So I think if it's a no from an applicant's perspective or candidate's perspective, then they ought to be asking, well, what do I do next to make it a yes? Of course. If it's a hard no, then the employer must recognise that they're sort of opening the door for that person to look elsewhere. Well, that might be a message to the person that they're not really.

22:56In the plans. Yeah, for the future. in which case you would automatically start looking for another job. So it is a two-way street. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, it's a relationship based like good relationships should be on trust. 100%, yeah. Good. Any last advice for anybody either considering a pay rise or asking for one? I think ultimately it's confidence. You need to go in. I would never ask for a pay rise if I wasn't confident in my ability and what I've been doing in the role that I'm paid to do. Because ultimately, if you're not confident, you're not going to convince someone else of your worth.

23:35No, and confidence has got to be based on reality. 100%. And your actual contribution and value. Because if you're not confident, but you are entitled, it can come across as arrogant, which is not what you want. You want to come across as it's a partnership. We're together. We're trying to move in this direction. and from my perspective, this is what needs to happen in order to make that reality. Yeah, I think when thinking about that word confidence, where does it come from? In terms of, you know you're doing a good job and you know what you're worth because you've looked around and you can see what others in the similar space are getting and also that you know that you're contributing a lot more than you're taking out.

24:14It shows that you're resourceful as well. Like you're using the data that's available to you to the best of your ability. Yeah, but you're confident for a good reason that you're well informed and you're doing a good job. If your starting point is there, you're quite likely to be successful in the conversation, if not immediately, then probably in a few months' time. Over the course of time, yeah. As long as those metrics are in place, that we know that, okay, it might not happen now, but in three months, can we talk about it if I meet X, Y, Z? Yeah. If I do the following, am I more likely to get a yes?

24:44And I think those conversations are the fallback if it is an immediate no. you know what happens now always follow up and make sure there's another question and keep a record of these conversations and keep a record of the expectations that and and suggestions that have been made so you can deliver against them 100 percent

25:09very good well thanks connor for coming in to talk to me about how to get a pay rise i feel better informed than i did before and i hope our listeners do too um i want to ask just a couple of questions I ask at the end you know we at Reed love Mondays as you know so what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning Colin? That is a good question um I think like I'm from a football background so we always spoke in the changing room about those one percent and and the sort of marginal marginal gains of sort of getting better every day and compounding and I think I always think about having a better week than we did last week and how can we sort of best prepare going into the week ahead.

25:50And if we do that week on week, then we're doing something right. So I think ultimately it is that, just try and have a better week than we did before. And over the course of time, you'll be in a good place. Yeah, if every week's better than the one before, you certainly will be. Thanks. That's a very interesting thought. And my last question, which is from my book, Why You 101 Interview Questions You'll Never Fear Again, Connor, is where do you see yourself in five years time i would like to be in a position where i'm looking after construction in general for business um but that i just want to keep placing people in the construction world um i've been doing it for coming up to 11 years now really enjoy it um and just adding adding value in the marketplace and sort of almost putting reed in the center of that construction world because obviously we're very well known in other specialisms but we're definitely making strides to be a known go-to for recruitment in the construction space.

26:51Well, very good. I wish you absolute success with that. A million houses need to be built so I'd like to be very much in the middle of that. Thank you very much for coming in and talking to me, Connor. Thanks for having me. That was very interesting and instructive.

27:06Thank you, Connor, for joining me on All About Business. Shorts. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you want to go deeper on topics like how to have career conversations that actually move the needle, I've written about them in my books, Why You, Life's Work, and The 7 Seconds CV. You'll find links and resources in the show notes. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.

27:38Thank you.