78. The crisis facing UK retail and food businesses | Sarah Bradbury

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.

0:28The UK food industry employs millions of people, yet many businesses say they're struggling to find the next generation of workers. Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Sarah Bradbury, CEO of the Institute of Grocery Distribution, an organisation that has spent more than a century helping shape the future of the food sector. We discuss the workforce challenges facing the industry, how businesses can attract young talent, and why the food sector may offer more career opportunities than many people realise. Well, today on All About Business, I'm delighted to welcome Sarah Bradbury. Thank you for coming in, Sarah.

1:13Sarah is the Chief Executive Officer of the Institute of Grocery Distribution, IGD for short. and she took that position in 2023 after a long career of 25 years in retailing and you've worked for a number of the premier retail companies in the country I believe you've worked at Harrods Marks and Spencers and Tesco's and Aldi so a really good cross-section there which I'm sure we'll be able to talk about um Sarah for those who aren't familiar with IGD what is it and what you do because I think it's fascinating and I'm really looking forward to exploring this whole industry which is so important to all of us and maybe we forget that with you this morning.

1:58Thank you James, thank you for inviting me in. So IGD is a purpose-driven charitable institute. We've been around for over 120 years. We were founded to help grocery talk to each other at that time and kind of work more collaboratively together. In the 70s we also folded in the Institute of Manufacturing. So we started to become a broader organisation really to help the industry unite, convene, come together and make a difference. So we have two parts of our organisation. We have a commercial side, which actually funds the charity. So that's the subscription service for retail and for shoppers so that we can really understand what's happening in the retail industry and what's happening with customers and how they're feeling shopping that then helps the insight drive action all right there's masses i want to ask you about from what you've just said so the well let's start with the charity side of it so we're 120 years old it was originally set up as you said so grocers might talk to each other i mean why was it useful for grocers to talk to you well i mean what were they what was it what was it beneficial that they talk to each other about because i suppose some listeners might be thinking well we don't want grocers colluding and pushing prices up to our detriment what were they talking about that was you know noteworthy well i think there's two things that are really um people would understand which is around when the barcode was created uh somebody had to try and then help people work together understand how they could implement it how they might work so when was that oh i don't know barcodes are long standing yeah so the barcode's been around for a long time it It had to be right across the whole food sector.

3:39Yeah, so it could be used and scanned in whatever shop, in whatever way. And that was something that people had to really work together. More recently, actually, do you remember when people started putting front of pat labelling on? Yes. So that's a voluntary initiative. And the industry wanted to make sure that it was easy for customers. So whatever shop you go in, it's fairly similar. And they could understand what it was trying to do. But somebody really had to bring people together in order to try and work out what the rules are going to be. So there's a sort of common language. Yeah. Yeah.

4:15I mean, you mentioned earlier on the way in, you know, what is butter? Yeah. So they had to sort of define what butter is. Yeah. So right. I mean, because that was interesting. Yeah. Because when you start thinking about it, what is butter? So it was more around how you would, what shapes and sizes you would sell things in. So were people going to agree around it's 250 gram block of butter at the time? Still is today. So they were kind of some of the earlier conversations. How is our industry going to help shoppers show up, etc.? And now, obviously, it's how do we help the industry move forward with all the challenges that it's got?

4:54Yes. So, Sarah, just to help me understand further, if IGD was to disappear tomorrow, what what in the food industry would stop working well nothing would stop working we're a fabulous industry that works at fast pace i think the challenges that are facing the food industry need to collaborate and need to work across the system and we're the only organization that works across the whole of the food system so i think pace of change would not be as fast if it wasn't for us bringing people together. So over the long term, you think this industry strategy might suffer? Yeah. And that's a key focus for you?

5:35Yeah, so uniting and convening the industry to deliver a thriving food system is critical. And actually IGD bringing the economic resilience, sustainability, workforce and health all together to really help us from what is the long-term good growth plan. I think that's the important piece that we play. Yeah, I mean, because food is different in many ways to other business areas because it is a system, isn't it? The system is really critical here. And I'm thinking about other business lines and that's not quite the same. I think the unintended consequences are not always seen in all the silos. So what are the silos?

6:14So we have a very strong retail sector. We have a very strong manufacturing sector. We obviously have a strong agriculture sector. And then we have the FMCG side as well. but really working across those generally retail want to support farming and then you've got the people in the middle that are driving and doing the production side as well so really working across all of them and into playing where some are competitors and some are not and what's unique about you is you you take a whole system view yes and we work across and try and work with the more progressive people as well so i think that's the other part some industries are moving faster than others um but they all need to rely on each other so how can we work with some of the more progressive thoughtful parts of the system so there's they're all interdependent to a degree when you say progressive what what do you mean so some have different priorities to others so uh you could have people that are very determined to get to net zero who are in the same area that are not focusing as much but actually you need everybody to move together in order to get the country quite frankly to the right place so you have to be quite persuasive yes we have to try yeah i can see that okay so setting standards and conventions and the common language was where it started i can see how that's so helpful and then you said there's this commercial side yeah that does research and supplies information for a fee i guess yes how does that work and who sort of uses that service yeah so on the commercial side of the organization we have two subscription services one is called retail analysis and we have analysts that go to 43 countries around the world and they'll bring back the best of retail so we can understand what's happening either in california or over in Australia?

8:12Where is kind of the new and interesting parts of retail? What are people doing on pricing? What are people doing on promotion? So that it really is a hive of information that people can go in and understand what's happening in countries. And this is available online, is it, for subscribers? Yes, it used to be books, but nowadays it's obviously an online subscriber service. That's amazing. So how many countries? So it's from 43 different countries. That's really interesting. so any interesting insights popped up lately you've seen well i think that the um the interesting is the interconnected stores so how do people hyper connect whether it's from their phones whether it's in small shops large shops how people using that technology to shop differently and then how do you put kind of the promotion side on top so whether it's through retail media really in different ways when shops were obviously set up and it was just literally you walked into your one shot but now how people connect is very very different so that's really what we're watching quite closely the role of AI and how does that change do you know a young person who dreams of becoming an entrepreneur in Britain today there are nearly 1 million 18 to 24 year olds who are currently not in education employment or training this is simply not good enough we want our young people to be doing meaningful work for their well-being and for the well-being of the whole economy.

9:41I want to do something about this, which is why today on Reid's 66th birthday, we're launching an important new initiative. Reid is going to give£20 ,000 to 66 young entrepreneurs to help them expand their businesses. We want to encourage young people to set up shop and start their entrepreneurial journey right now. So please visit reed.com forward slash entrepreneurs to find out more. Reed is an entrepreneurial family business. And to celebrate our 66th birthday, we want to support the next generation of entrepreneurs. So it's interesting, I was just thinking of this the other day, so grocery has gone from, you'd go into a shop 120 years ago and someone would be behind a counter and you'd ask for a list of things and they get them for you to going to a supermarket where you fill up a trolley yeah to now going online and putting in a list of things and they'll get them for you that's sort of become a virtual version of the original yeah which is quite interesting how it's evolved is that right i mean that's just a perception but no i think it's a really fair assumption there's been there's been such a massive change and now you don't even have to book for someone to deliver it the next day on some of the fast delivery services you can just be thinking about it in your kitchen and someone will deliver it to you so who are the subscribers to your business service then what's who would be your typical customers for that so we have over 400 customers we have retailers from uh many different parts of the world um and we also have manufacturers brands um i think when i used to be on the commercial side people would bring igd data into me there'd be photographs into me so if they were selling me a certain product they could show me how other people were merchandising it around the world ah so people use that to assist them in their own promotions and yeah yeah so were you a buyer i was i was on the commercial side for a long time yes all right i used to buy media a long time ago yeah so yeah so that's interesting so and your trustees i was looking of the charity come from a number of substantial largely retail companies i think but then there were some food producers yeah so we're really lucky actually we have trustees and directors of the organization and we have both from retail from manufacturing and actually we've now got a couple of charity leads that are joining us as well they really help us guide the direction of the organization and obviously bring stimulus and interest in as well so it's interesting you look all around the world but your focus is the uk as i understand it yeah what are some of the biggest challenges currently facing the uk food system in in your view sarah the uk food system it is one of our greatest national assets but it's going through a huge amount of change um and it touches every home every community that we work in but at the moment there's low volumes there's climate change there's economic challenges geopolitical challenges there's an awful lot so hang on you say just low volumes what do you mean people aren't buying as much yeah so our industry has always worked on volume growth it's been a growth game the margins are very very small um so it is a kind of volume like for like it's been the way that the industry worked um volumes are not growing at the pace that they have in the past um so was that because people aren't eating as much or so they're they're just not growing as much there's still kind of the volume what do you mean though how does that happen because well the population hasn't grown as much or the so um at the moment we've got challenges coming in from a health perspective we've also got the unknown of what's going to happen with these glp1 drugs as well coming in so with the obesity you mean a zempic yes that's what so people literally aren't eating as much because of those so we don't know the impact it's totally going to have we're actually doing a big longitudinal study at the moment to understand what people are saying versus what they're really doing are we going to be the same as america um what's happened there so in america we believe that like almost 18 percent of people are actually taking weight loss drugs right and And how much does that reduce their sort of volume in your terms of consumption?

14:09If normal was 100 or before was 100, what's it dropped to? So it all depends on the individual. And it does. And that, I mean, that's... But you're an average. I mean, you've got this data. I can tell. You've obviously been analysing this. Yeah, that's the million dollar question that everyone wants to answer. So we think that it could be up to about 30 % less, but it depends on your level that you're taking, your starting position. So this is transformational. It could be transformational for the industry. It's something people are really, really watching. Is it going to change the quality of what you eat?

14:42Is it going to change your longer patterns of what you're going to eat? Is it going to change your snacking? We definitely know that it makes a big difference from a snacking perspective. Is it going to be different out of home versus in home? Where are the big reductions going to take place? And what's your sense? so i have a hope that um it will help people eat less and better less and better is that is the healthier yes so healthier what do you mean by that so the real critical part is to ensure that you are having nutrient dense foods so that a kind of every calorie counts so that when you're really thinking about um what you're going to eat you're going to be eating less but what is it going to be and to make sure that you've got high quality meat to make sure you've got loads of vegetables to make sure you're balancing your diet that is the the kind of goal really and you can see at the moment there's lots of different retailers trying different ranges to see can they adapt to that new market and so i i'm hopeful that it will help us make the transitions that we need to do across the food industry um because i mean critics of the food industry would say over the last 50 years you know the processed food and surplus sugar has caused obesity what would you say as a spokesperson i'm not trying to catch you out so i mean but is it is that is this now being corrected i suppose i suppose um if you listen to summer if you listen to so chris whitty he would say it's a plaster it's not the right thing to do because we should be ensuring that we've got a healthy nation i think um he would say these drugs are a plaster he would yes he would say i think he was in the guardian the other week to basically say um we need to make the nation eat the right food help train people properly help make sure they know what nutritional standards would be um in order to make sure people are healthy versus giving them an injection to stop of them eating too much i think the food industry has a role to play the food industry has been really supportive around some of the nhs 10-year plan to have mandatory reporting to really help a level playing field because the difficulty is if you're um if you want more sales people don't eat two apples if they're sat on the desk but they might eat two kit kats or mars bar all right okay so i think it really is thinking about um the food industry desperately wants to help the nation be more healthy um but it's how they're going to go along that transition but i think everybody knows the transition needs to be had so so a big challenge is volumes volumes are flat or falling yeah and i mean your the food industry has some substantial segments to it doesn't it we've mentioned retaining but yeah what are the other blocks in the chain that that you represent i suppose and how does this affect them what's the i'm thinking of farmers and manufacturers yeah so so but we obviously work across the food system all the way from agriculture through to retail out of home um what we do try and do is try and help work across the system so it's quite new thinking but working to understand one thing might help one and not the other so how do you have a fair transition into the new world that we need to be in so if we think about economic resilience is really important a lot of these are low margin organizations so we need to make sure we've got a strength in the food system when we think about the environmental sustainability and the change that we need we know that we've got to look after the land better help support the kind of the future journey to net zero from a population diet i mean what do you think about putting solar panels over fields everywhere because i mean that would have been a productive agricultural asset it's now not it's now helping net zero apparently but it's not a farm anymore i mean this is a big issue in the countryside it definitely that's a difficult one to sort of balance isn't it i mean we are going to have more people in the country we need to feed the nation more we need to produce more at home so i think kind of what land is being used is a really important part so actually is good agricultural land where the soil can be looked after and we can produce for ourselves that shouldn't be what's got a solar panel on top of it but when farmers get sort of told that you get a hundred thousand a year income for doing this well we know that farmers don't make that much money farming typically it's quite tempting isn't it's a bit like your kit kats on the desk i think i think that's a very fair challenge but i do think kind of with some of the change the sustainable farming initiatives are trying to balance that out a little bit so farmers are going to be paid more proportionately and i quite like the phrase of kind of how do you land share so that you're using the right land for producing food and then you're using other parts of your farm for other areas to while creating them as well.

19:53I mean, I think putting solar panels on roofs is a good idea. Absolutely. Fields, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure either. You're not so sure either. So, well, that's interesting. So it feels like this is a challenge sector for a number of reasons. I mean, you only have to watch Clarkson's Farm to see how hard farming is. And there's been a lot of protests from farmers saying they're struggling. And then you're saying the retailers of volumes are not growing. what other things are on your mind? I think it's worth saying we are a brilliant industry. So actually the food industry adapts so much.

20:31You only need to think about COVID around how everybody worked together. I was fortunate enough to be working at Tesco at the time and it was an unbelievable experience to how we were pivoting to support society where we are. But the challenges are not insurmountable. It's how do people kind of work together? So I think if we think about... And that's your role here really? you're a convener we convene we work very closely with government we work very closely with trade associations and i think the more people can work together i think the more the industry moves together the more they move faster um and broadening out kind of all of the conversations we have to just involve more people um so that that's not kind of competing areas is better but So how might government help?

21:18I mean, are there some messages you're sending in their direction? So we're very lucky because we work with the government on the food strategy side. Right. And there definitely is, there's kind of land use frameworks that are just coming out. There's work around agricultural 25-year plan. There is work around. So what's that? So that's work in progress at the moment. 25-year plan. So really to help profitability of farms, to really make sure that the future that's needed from a sustainability perspective, so that we've got the soils for the future, so that we've got the farmers for the future, because they're retiring as well.

21:56And to make sure there is that balance in the transition across the board. I think the other important thing to talk about, as well as population diet, is the workforce challenge. and that's what I'm keen on. You've just published a report called The Quiet Crisis. Yes. So is that about this? Yes, I think. So talk me through the workforce challenge. So the food and drink workforce quiet crisis really talks about the long-term structural workforce problem that we've got within the food sector. So despite lots of years of effort across industry and government, we know that structurally it's getting even harder to get the workforce that we need in which areas are you thinking so the labor and skills crunch um really is all the way from supermarkets through to farms so we know that there is rising costs there's increased strain um and rising costs of what so rising costs in the system so whether it becomes and across workforce specifically.

23:05Are you talking wages, national insurance, rates, all of that stuff? So retail's obviously got an awful lot of people in it. So they've been hit really hard with national insurance changes. And then we've got an aging population. We know that lots of workers are retiring and we know that we're not a sexy industry to work in. So how are you going to make yourself sexy in a sense? Because, I mean, clearly we need people to grow food and to run shops and keep the show on the road in the future, don't we? I mean, that's vital. Definitely. But people don't know about our industry. So we did a piece of...

23:43What do you mean? We know about Tesco. You're absolutely right. But they don't think of our industry as one to come and work in. So people don't know about the roles that we've got within our industry. We actually did a piece of research recently that said 72 % of people weren't interested in coming to work in the food and drink sector. But that means 28 % are. Absolutely. That's quite a good number. It's a good start. But we also found out that 78 % of people were interested in jobs. They just didn't know were in our industry. Right. And I think that's kind of the... What sort of things we think of.

24:19So when people are looking at purpose-driven jobs, whether people are looking at new technology, they don't think of us as kind of, we've got more, we've got engineering jobs, We've got jobs that involve new technology from an AI perspective. We've got, you can move up within our industry. We've got marketing. We've got finance. We've got analytics. We've got supply chain. We've got environmental jobs. So when people are thinking about kind of what needs, what they'd like to do for the future, quite often they don't think, oh, the food industry might have that. And actually the beauty of our industry is you can move from a social mobility perspective as well.

25:01um started many different jobs i mean i i was i've been fortunate enough to run advertising i've been able to run what sort of what was your first job in retaining so um i was a graduate trainee harrods and i was the christmas teddy bear coordinator all right okay so so there you go so you started on the shop floor yeah i mean we've had other people on the podcast who started on the shop floor you know through what were then yts schemes youth training oh yeah who are now CEOs. I mean, it seems to me that retail is a really good entry point for young people because you learn a lot. You have to work on your feet and you have to deal with a lot of customers.

25:38That's good experience for any business in the future. So I'd certainly recommend retail to people to consider. And it's a lot of fun and it's relatable as well. I think that's the other great thing. I used to work in an ice cream van at Thought Park. It was fantastic. and I really enjoyed that job and it's interesting those sort of jobs I think yeah get people going um so I I think it's interesting you feel that they don't look at it yeah do you is there an issue here with younger people you know when in the past 15 16 year olds would do Saturday jobs in stores is that not happening so much or is because that seems to be an entry point where you get started yeah I don't come across quite so much now there's not as many of those around and BRC have recently done a report about that being a challenge, especially with their national insurance changes.

26:30We actually launched something in 2012 called Feeding Britain's Future, which really was about getting people into understanding about work, giving them the skills that they needed. When we're looking at some of the challenges today, people don't get work experience either. so how can really the our industry but also others work really closely especially with government with new careers and enterprise around how do we get people to experience so you've just um mentioned that you want to relaunch feeding britain's future which first started in 2012 you know in doing that you know what's your ask of business what do you want from business?

27:13So there's three things that I'd really like. One is to get involved. So sign up to the initiative and supporting us. The second is around Make Your Mark campaign, really trying to talk to children where they are. And the third one is get involved in at least one of the interventions. So whether that being the work experience side, whether it's collaborating with universities, really helping us to get on the careers platform, so all the jobs that we need for our industry one of those interventions would be brilliant okay so if i'm a business and i've heard this i'm interested in this i am personally where do i go to find this where do i go to sign up is there a website or a url or what's the yes so come to the igd website it's under our social impact side it will be across the front of the page as well um and then we'll get in contact with you from there so that's the ig the website institute of grocery distribution for anyone listening go there and you'll be signposted.

28:10Great. Well, I'm very interested in these new V levels, vocational levels that have been announced that are going to sit alongside A levels. And I'm sure there'll be a retail or there should be a food industry V level you should be asking for that. And then you'll have a good interface with schools. Are you going to do that? Is that something on your agenda? Because I think V levels could be a really important development that would help young people progress. Whether they wanted to do a degree, an apprenticeship, or just going to get a job. Yeah, I think those T levels, apprenticeship reforms, they're all going to be really kind of important for our sector, but they're going to take a while, I think, to actually move through.

28:49I mean, it's not essential to have done food, obviously through school and university, but at the moment there is no A level for food science. No. Well, there should certainly be a V level for retail food, and there could be an A level too, I agree. And I think that at least helps young people grow an awareness of what the possibilities are and start to develop relationships with local employers and businesses. It also gives them the skills at home, back to the obesity conversation. You know, the skills to actually provide for themselves and their family. And cook healthily. Yeah. So that would be a good development.

29:25Yeah. So your future project, what's it called? Because you're going to relaunch this, you said. Yeah, so Feeding Britain's Future, we launched back in 2012 with 150 companies. And at the time, it was really to help get skills into schools. So people recognised our sector, but also give them the skills to do jobs. So we had 30 ,000 children that we worked with when we launched. Since then, we've actually been in schools with 15 ,000 children every year. We've been quite quiet about it. We've got some brilliant supporting companies that help us. So they get that real life and younger people kind of coming in and talking to them.

30:05But actually, at that time, there was an unemployment problem for young people. Clearly, we have the same challenge. Unfortunately, again, yes. Yeah. So it feels the right time to be relaunching. So we'll be relaunching in early June. We're hoping to work. We've already got a lot of organisations very keen to work with us. And there's really kind of five parts of that. So that is to join us on the Make Your Mark campaign, which obviously you helped us with last year, but to really focus directly to where children are, to make more awareness of actually the jobs that are available, because that's very limited on some of the careers websites at the moment.

30:46We're going to be working more closely with the universities, but crucially, getting every organization to think about how do they start with work experience. So how do they help partner with careers and enterprise really get young people into their work? So the message for business owners is to think about work experience opportunities and creating them. And you'll help push that along and bring people into it. yeah that sounds a really good initiative feeding britain's future so it's actually about the future of the people rather than the food in this case yes yeah because we do know don't we that if people don't have a good start in life then the rest of their life is challenged and i think if people of the children that are out of work at the moment or the young people that are out of work i think one in four of them have not had any role no and 16 of young people are out of work which is higher than continental Europe now which is it's really worrying but the the concern is if you don't work in your 20s it's quite likely you weren't in your 30s 40s and 50s so that's something that needs to be tackled urgently I agree.

31:59How do we inspire them how do we see opportunities and how do we actually just get them started somewhere yeah and then they can build from that. So there's quite a lot going on at the moment in terms of reviews around this so I'm hopeful that there'll be a convergence of policy and business energy to change it. But we are challenged, aren't we, by these costs? I mean, you've mentioned them. Every other conversation I have with a business person, they mention national insurance. So doesn't that need to change? I mean, can we sort of persuade government to do something about the cost? Because it seems, Because, you know, cost is a fundamental aspect of business.

32:41And what I mean, to have a sort of focus on reducing costs would be helpful, wouldn't it? I think there's lots of skills gaps. There's lots of areas that need to have people in jobs. So I think in the food industry specifically, we're going to be creating new models. We're going to be working differently in the future. and we've also got I think we're finding that filling jobs is taking a lot longer than it has before so there are jobs there we just need to start getting people into them training them and then seeing kind of the opportunities ahead so we can't deny that there's kind of cost pressures but there are jobs there I think that's important to stress yeah so so people listening should yeah be encouraged by that and i think people listening also um encourage your children you know what we find is people uh avoid our sector parents don't encourage their children to come into our sector because they if they haven't experienced the amazing opportunities that we've got you know we we are as an industry double the size at least of the um of the nhs from being the biggest private employer you know there really is opportunities at all different levels so how many people work in the sector then i mean that's suggesting several million yeah so uh we are the largest private employer in the uk as a sector as a sector yeah so it's interesting to me your your role sarah is not business specific you're you're you're seeking to build a whole sector here which as an entrepreneurial endeavour is massive isn't it I mean it's quite impressive so so what what are the key levers that would help you really help deliver a thriving food sector in the UK so I think the more people work together and the more that they can help share what we do share the stories uh the journeys that people have been on get people in to see the work experience that you've talked about, really sign up, be part of the challenge together, the more we can all help each other.

34:56Because there are limited resources in order to, from a financial perspective, but the more we can talk with one voice, be one industry, collaborate more and help each other, then the easier it's going to be for our sector to be a sector that people want to join. Right. Is technology changing it a lot? I mean, because we hear about AI sort of taking jobs away in other spaces, but maybe your sector is protected from that somewhat. So there are six areas really that we think kind of skills for the future can help us. So technologies, absolutely adopting technologies is going to be one of them. AI, robotics, novel food processes, they're all going to help us kind of move forward.

35:43But there's regenerative and sustainable production. There's loads of jobs in that area, improving population health through the way that we're creating food. That's going to be something that's going to need an awful lot of work going forward. and then embedding the whole circularity how we're going to use the whole of products as well as everything that goes on in manufacturing moving forward. So there's lots of different areas that are going to be growing you're going to be needing different skills and we're going to be needing to boost productivity as well. So for people listening thinking about where they might want to work there's a range of opportunities there.

36:25And we're an area with purpose So when we think about young people that want to change things, think about what the future needs, the food industry is one of them. So you've stressed purpose more than once. That's striking to me. Is that because, I mean, clearly food is very important to all of us. Yeah. And there's obvious purpose in that. But do you think young people particularly are looking for jobs with purpose? Is that something? yeah so some of our research has definitely looked at one young people want to work differently that's still going to be a challenge in what way so the way they work the way they want to be uh move between jobs between areas the hours they want to work those things are all going to need our industry to adapt because we're slightly more traditional today um but there are um there is lots of roles whether it's from a stem perspective whether it's shop floor perspective whether it's moving around but the the purpose element is really when we're thinking about climate change resilience food cannot be taken for granted like it has been in the past no definitely not um so looking forwards into the future i mean you've obviously got your new initiative um what what have you learned about young i mean talking about young people's or barriers that they might face in terms of coming into the world of work and how can companies maybe you suggested a you know an emphasis on a little bit more flexibility but how can companies be sort of engaged and supportive of young people in ways that perhaps they're not at the moment so i think we need to target different interventions um so whether that be back to the kind of working experience how we go and talk to them differently try and understand be more inclusive from some of the policies that people work with and address kind of some of the more persistent barriers.

38:23So I think attractiveness is key. Understanding where attractiveness, as in attractiveness of our industry, how do we show up? How do we talk about it? How do we show the progressive nature of our industry? There's definitely a where and how to be visible in schools and in later careers and then there is thinking about the kind of work that they want to do as well so how do we position that work differently as an intervention as well I mean it's a difficult problem isn't it because we've just been talking about 16 % of young people out of work which in the old days you'd think would make them hungry to go and look for a job and then you have to make yourselves more attractive to encourage them to come and apply I mean there's a funny mismatch going on here isn't there i mean it sounds that sounds like a big problem yeah i wonder whether we how do we sort of unlock that yeah i wonder whether we're actually meeting young people where they are that's some of the research that we're looking at with others at the moment so is it that we have to talk to more people you you would probably know this better than me on tiktok where are they looking for jobs um because currently we don't we don't seem to be getting through to them well enough um they must be looking somewhere what are they doing with their time i think that some of the questions has been quite interesting that people have been asking have you have you been able to surface any insights on that not quite yet not yet no um because yeah i think that will be interesting i think businesses getting closer to schools makes sense yeah and we have evidence through reading partnership that where children at school are exposed to visits from businesses and talks with local companies that they're much more likely to go on and get a job successfully just because they have a bit of basic understanding.

40:16We've done some similar research actually with some of our schools programs and it showed that 86 % more likely to kind of get a job if they've been exposed over three times to different industries. Yeah so is there anything else that policy makers can do to help make the industry more attractive to young people? I think, as we've just said, there's lots of different interventions happening, whether it be T-level, V-level or the apprenticeship side. I think we've got to see how they flow out, but I think there's definitely more in apprenticeships that needs to be done, especially in the food industry from a flexibility perspective and making it more bite-sized learning, helping people um use education in work more proactively yeah i mean i think so what you're saying i think is that there are some things that have been announced that are hopefully going to come forward successfully yeah such as v levels you know gold standard apprenticeships the t levels that once in place will be helpful.

41:27Yeah. So a lot of attention needs to be given to ensure that that's delivered successfully, executed successfully, doesn't it? Yeah. Because, I mean, that could be a generational change if it's done well. Yeah. Or it could be an announcement that's forgotten in three years' time if it's not. I think... So you have a role to play in helping that happen, don't you, as an organisation? We're trying to work on more of the, with careers and enterprise on the career side um i think people like british nutrition foundation are working with the um within schools i want so you'd separate curriculum from careers yes yeah i mean they clearly come together and actually we are we're working with some of the food sector at the moment of how do they how do they help educate in schools um but i do think they're slightly separate if if today's problem is helping people get into work yeah um the food industry has roles that people can get into work that's kind of a bit more of our our area at this moment in time but i think how more collaboratively how does the industry work closely with government to help that all industries work more closely with government to make sure the solutions are the right solutions to help people in the future the better and and what about the sort of hospitality and that you're involved with that as well yes uh uk hospitality have been part of our make you mark campaigns as well i think they are a brilliant industry and they work very closely um in order to really get people in on those kind of saturday jobs evening shifts or whatever as they as they move along and that's definitely they talk about the progression and the opportunities from that side but yes the work we're doing here is really to try and be across the board and help everybody and you can move within within our industry as well very good well i wish you continued success with that sarah thanks for going to talk to me and for young people i think it's a brilliant industry to enter because there are a whole range of opportunities and you accumulate experience pretty quickly if you're working in a store or in a restaurant or on a farm and uh and their lifelong skills that you learn so i think they're really good so i hope that you are able to spread that message and and that young people listening will give some thought to your industry as as a possible place to go and work

44:02I always ask two questions at the end Sarah and my guests the first is because we at Read Love Mondays is what gets you up on a Monday morning? I'm really passionate about what I do, I love working across the industry, I feel my role is a complete privilege to be able to support our brilliant industry, uniting and inspiring them I I'm very energetic. So I really, nothing's ever enough. So I do work very hard because I think there's more that can always be done. So collaborating, uniting and convening is something that wakes me up in the morning. Collaborating, uniting and convening sounds like your mantra, is that right?

44:48Sounds like that's a phrase you've used, which is a good one. So my last question, which is in my interview book, why you 101 interview questions you'll never fear again is where do you see yourself in five years time i'm only two and a half years into this job and i think the igd is a unique place to work i could probably still see myself um working at igd in five years time i think we've got so much more to give the industry being a ceo is a privilege i work across 30 ceos um as part of a CEO forum. We work really closely with government. Hang on, when you say that, that's interesting. You work across 30 CEOs.

45:32What do you mean? So I run a CEO forum four times a year. And these CEOs are from where? So from Tesco, Sainsbury's, NFU President, Coke, Nestle. So you get 30 together. Together in a Chatham House environment where we often... So you can't tell us what you say then? no but they uh so they they help each other it's brilliant we clearly have a lawyer in the room to make sure that we're doing the right thing but actually really understanding the different challenges of different businesses um and all to move to the same direction whether it's from an economic resilience environmental health all the big challenges facing our industry um i can help them work together and work with government so that is an absolute privilege in my role that must have some challenges because i know in our industry there's some pretty strong rivalries i don't know you would say you'd sort of be half pleased to see a competitor but not totally i'm thinking yeah a hundred percent of course there is but i think people leave their business mostly at the door so it really is a people understand that we'll get better together the industry when they're moving in the same direction which generally people want to it's more helpful and it also creates that level playing field first mover is not always an advantage it can actually when you're changing the way things are done be more difficult yeah so So who sets the agenda for that?