79. What businesses should learn from museums about innovation | Elizabeth McKay

27:55So we have this great interchange program, which is a thought leadership program for the supply chain of TFL. And we hold like Chatham House Rules breakfasts and dinners and activities. And we put out a report every year about what the great thinkers are thinking and doing. We're working on placemaking and sustainability. Placemaking, explain. Well, all kinds of things about creating cities and transport and the kind of places we want to live. You call it placemaking. Placemaking. Well, Covent Garden, if I digress for a moment. Yeah, go on, please. Covent Garden. That's what this is all about.

28:38I'm really interested in this area of like how places become significant. Well, I remember Covent Garden when it was a market. Yeah. Well, the museum was one of the first cornerstones in its regeneration in 1980. So it opened then. And you might know that in the 70s, it was almost decimated. They almost turned Covent Garden into a car park. And really, it was the local. It was quite a desolate area at one point, I remember, in the 70s. And then when the flower market left, and it was just the time of the rise of the car and the fascination with cars. And fortunately, the local residents saved these wonderful buildings.

29:18And they listed, I think, about 280 properties. And so we benefited, the museum benefited from that and opened in 1980. What was the premises before? The flower market. It was part of the market. Yes. You ever see My Fair Lady? Yeah, yeah, I have. I watched it just the other day. It's fantastic. Did you? Yeah, I did. I've re-watched it recently. It is fantastic. It's not exactly accurate, but I love the depiction of everyone coming out. No, it's entertainment, but it begins in Covent Garden, doesn't it? Yeah, coming out of the opera in a strange way that you can't quite figure out where it was filmed.

29:55And her father's from Hounslow, just like mine. We identify with that in our family. Eliza Doolittle. Yeah, exactly. That was great. So that's where it was, yeah. So that sense of, and that was really inspired by placemaking in other parts of the world. If you look at Faneuil Hall in Boston or the Embarcadero in San Francisco, some of that thinking was brought to, you know, how do we make Covent Garden work? Oh, so Faneuil Hall had been done before Covent Garden. Yeah, yeah. Because that's a fabulous place as well. Exactly. And, you know, desolate but now turning. So it was an old fish market, I suppose, in the old days, and they turned it into Faneuil.

30:35And then look at a place like King's Cross and how that was regenerated. That's incredible now and a real kind of magnet for business. and people. So your museum is part of that? We're part of that. Yeah, I feel like, and we're opposite the Opera House, so I feel like we're the two kind of cultural cornerstones of Covent Garden. And we're about to embark on a redevelopment of the museum, and I think everybody needs a little bit of a zhuzh up. Right, zhuzh up. Zhuzh up. Okay, so what's your zhuzh up involve? Well, our Zizop is an investment in the museum to create some new galleries, to tell the stories of innovation, things that we're really passionate about.

31:21But we've, frankly, we've lost or we've run out of room. Yeah, I mean, it's a. We pack it in in our museum. So we're going to create a few new galleries with kind of clever architectural engineering and be able to update some of our exhibits, some basic amenities too, like, you know, toilets need to work. You know, museums love to talk about toilets because visitors want nice toilets. So, you know, you've got to have that. So you're investing in it. We are investing. And you, as a charity, I imagine you're doing a fundraise for this. Yes. So what's that involve? So we launched a fundraising campaign in the summer.

32:02I'm not sure when this will go out. So summer 2026, you'll hear more about our fundraising. It should be out by then. Our fundraising. And you'll be – So I have to fill a gap. Right. So I have a great pledge from TFL. Well, you should use the Big Give, our charity platform, which we match funds. I would love to do that. So if you can persuade TFL to put some money in the champion fund, than when the public donate, it gets doubled. I would love... And people love the big give because their donations are doubled up. So we'd be very happy to support this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great initiative.

32:36If my head of development is listening to this, or actually I'll go tell him right after. You might want to make sure they do. He will be jumping for joy. We can help with that. But yeah, I mean, that's just one of many things you'd have to do. So you need to raise some money to invest in the future of the museum. And that new version that you're describing would last for the next 50 years next 50 years you're hoping i think so i mean we'll be 50 in 2030 so right the the big kind of message is we need to be fit for the future so you want to yeah this is going to take you to 100 yeah yeah yeah and and beyond yeah well that's good i think that's interesting i mean that's one thing entrepreneurs have to do is think well into the future you have to have great answers for the future yeah that was the hardest thing about covet i think because we all just had to kind of take our eyes off the horizon and suddenly it was day-to-day existence.

33:31And I think you have to retrain to look further and to kind of have ambition and get your mojo back. Yeah, my observation of this is in business, running a business, we have to think in days, like what are we doing now, next week, and decades. Yes. And it's either the immediate or the far out where you have to have a vision for the future and an idea of what you're trying to do to deliver a service in the future. And so you can invest in that. Yes. Which is what you're doing. And we are. And I mean, I guess, and you think about this too, is that sense of legacy. And I feel like I'm in this job right now to make this organization the best it can be and to ensure it's here for posterity.

34:17And I feel that maybe people who work in kind of museums and look after these amazing places, feel that real sense of responsibility and passion. And they're like, I have to do this. Yeah, well, it's good that you do because a lot of people care about it. And so I would say that's a sort of necessary prerequisite of a cultural leader. I think it's a prerequisite of any leader, actually. You have to care about what you're doing. I think so. But I think so. And I think sometimes you just have to dial it to 11 because you have to convey that passion and convince people. You have to bring your team along with you because people get rattled by things all the time.

35:01Like, you know, you read the news, you catastrophize. And I think when you're a leader of an organization and you employ people, they look to you for some kind of, you know, I guess, test or emotional message. Yeah, it's interesting that because they're probably watching you when you don't know it. So you have to demonstrate a sort of confidence. Yes, you can never turn around and go. In your sort of day to day that maybe you don't always necessarily feel. Well, I think that's probably something that anyone in a leadership position feels, that you think, okay, I have to have my own way to just rant or go do something, run around, yell at your spouse.

35:50I don't know. Well, I was going to ask you how you do that now you've answered. Don't take it home with you. Don't take it home. That's what I've been advised. Yeah, yeah. so what are your what are your biggest challenges you know as a CEO of a museum well always the biggest challenge is money so I and I have a board that is always like you know sort the money and the rest will follow they're really happy with my exciting initiatives and the outreach we do with young people and we're doing some amazing work on culture bringing music and art and theatre into the museum. And they're completely supportive of that, but it's, you know, the bottom line.

36:32So I'm ecstatic. I can tell you that we had our best year ever in 2025. Financially? Financially and with admissions. How many visitors did you have? 450 ,000. Right. So best ever. And there's an annual visitor survey that's done. It's come out and it kind of gives a health check on the UK cultural sector. So we're in the top 100, which is great. And we grew 6 % last year when the sector grew 2%. So we've always been... So what do you put that down to? I mean, these are real business metrics. These are business metrics. So you're outperforming the market, so to speak. Yeah, exactly. But what are you doing to make that happen?

37:16Well, great leadership. I have an amazing team. We're really... But what are they doing for the audience? Why do people come? They come because we have relevant programming. We understand our audiences. We've pivoted to give the right content to the right people. Young kids love us and parents. People like you come in and get excited about seeing, you know, the Victorian gallery. I have an Art Deco poster gallery on now, and we established a poster gallery, a permanent gallery for posters two years ago. That's really popular. We do exciting programming in the evening. We are accessible. So you've sort of broadened the offer in a way.

37:56Definitely broadened it. As a business strategy, that was your plan. As a business strategy, you look after your core audience, but you have to grow and you have to serve. So who's your core audience? Well, because we're a museum and a charity, we're here for everyone. We are inclusive and open and want to attract everyone. So we have to have a broad offer. but our we have like any business will have segments that look and so we have the family segment we have the the young adult segment and we have the older uh i i we don't often use the older term but they could learn or traditional learners demographic right who appreciated different kinds of experience and so there are three different sort of groups yes and then you want to encourage people to come at the right time that they'll have the best experience like um and we we you might find as someone who doesn't want to be there with all the school kids that coming after they've left for the day in the afternoon might be a more pleasant experience so you kind of use nudges to encourage people to visit at that time right um so that so so your Well, volumes are good.

39:11Our volumes are good. Has the money followed that? Because you said your biggest challenge was money. Yes. Well, admissions, obviously you have more people come, your admissions increase. But we also have a good repeat because we want people to come back. And it's free when they come back. But then you look at your secondary spend. So when they come back, they're likely to spend something in the shop. Yes, or have a coffee or something. And then they might find out about those hidden London tours and go on that. Or they might think, oh, I love this place. I want to take a train. I want to go to the depot.

39:43I want to come back. So, yeah, sort of giving you a free access for a year is quite a big part of the strategy. Yes, yes. It's interesting. And it's also a really nice thing to do because we're a nice place. And I think when you're a nice, welcoming place and you walk in and you feel like you're part of it and you're happy, you come back. You know, we look at things like, you know, am I telling my friends about it and all of those kinds of business metrics. Yes. So in terms of your finances, I just want to understand, do you have to apply for public support or is it all from the tickets and the charity donations to the public?

40:27It's unique. So Museum and Culture Funding is a PhD area, right? It's hotly discussed. And I think in the papers, we're talking about should the National Museum start charging and comparing that to internationally. But we - Well, they do in other countries. Yes, exactly. And I was just reading about some of those comparisons. But London Transport Museum, because we're part of the mothership of TFL, we have a grant from them. And that's about 20%. Right. And that is really to look after their collection. So our curatorial staff and to house and care for it is what that grant does. Now we're responsible for the other 80 percent and we earn that.

41:10And that's pretty impressive in the museum world. So if you look at the nationals, they might be anywhere between 40%, 60 % of a grant. Increasingly, we all have to earn more. And that's where you see more commercial activity coming in. We don't charge for our exhibitions. So the nationals often will have exhibitions where you need to pay to come and see the big hitters. And that's just a reality. So it's so but but our model is, you know, the annual pass. And once you're part of the family, come back as much as you like. And that works for us. How long have you had that model? Since before I arrived.

41:56And I think we, you know, periodically we review it. But we feel that the kids go free message is really important. You know, another organization that that's near to my heart and is the ENO. They also do a kids go free offer. And I think that the point about culture is you have to encourage people in early. So you're taking a really long view here. I think you have to take a long view. You know, it's that whole cradle, cradle, you don't want to say cradle to grave, but like the whole lifespan. You just did. Womb to tomb. Womb to tomb. Oh, I hadn't heard that. I hadn't heard that. You're not quite doing that.

42:39So, yeah. So, yeah, but I can see that if you get someone interested early in their life. Yes. Well, it's habits, isn't it? Well, that's what education is about in many ways. I mean, people end up pursuing different lines of work, different things, but some of them will be interested in transport and museums. But if they see it, you know, that whole point about you can only be what you see and getting access to people who do jobs. I mean, you must see this in what you do. It's really important for schools. It's really important for schools. I've done a couple talks with schools and, you know, gone into – and it's so fascinating to do that and humbling too.

43:21Because I think, you know, I've had opportunities for my education. But I also grew up at a time where it was important to have, like, breadth of education. And that's a key difference with the UK system versus when I grew up in the US system is you have to narrow and choose so early. Although that's changing, hopefully, with the new vocational levels or V levels, which I'm really pleased to see, excited about. Which the transport should be one of them. Yes. We should be encouraging them. So what do the kids ask you when you go and talk to schools? Well, they kind of will, uh. No, they ask me, how do you get into this?

44:00And I say, well, I think you have to be open for change and you have to be able to reinvent yourself and take your skills and apply them to a new opportunity. Because we all know that half the jobs won't exist. I mean, with AI coming, it's happening really rapidly. So I say, you know, think about following your passions and what you love, and then you can translate that into opportunities. Right. I agree with that. Oh, that's good. I agree. The way you were looking at me, I thought, uh-oh. No, I was just thinking because we say success is as easy as pie. I've said this before, but pie stands for passion, ideas, and energy.

44:43You seem to be endorsing this. I definitely endorse that. I endorse that. Good. Yeah. Good. I have noticed even my own children. One's like the humanities kid and one's the science kid and how those passions can diverge quite early. So I feel like it's a mixed, I have mixed feelings about early focus now. So Elizabeth, young people are clearly a core audience for you. You know, what's your focus in that respect? What do you aim to achieve or deliver to young people particularly? We have a wonderful program called Enjoyment to Employment. And last year, we reached 156 ,000 young people and their teachers about future jobs and skills.

45:26So that's really important to us to help turn that early passion into actual future careers. We also do outreach in schools. We're in 91 % of the greater London schools. We have a safety message. We go out as the museum team to help children in year six before they, you know, transfer to the big scary world of secondary schools. And they're out there, you know, taking tubes and buses and navigating the streets of London on their own. And so we give them that kind of confidence and that assurance and understand how to be good citizens in London. So I love that work that we do. So enjoyment to employment, that's very interesting.

46:14How do schools get in touch with you to invite you to do that? We have a wonderful learning department that has contacts with all schools. And we have a coalition of sponsors that fund that work. so we have information on our website about it so that is a fundamental part of what we are and our purpose as an organization to help really young people find those careers of the future. And you're not just talking about careers in transport. No, much wider. But transport is so multifaceted. It is. So that and we also do some work about future careers in the culture sector as well. So support, we have a young freelancer program where we help equip them with the skills to be able to run their own freelance business, to be able to look after their finances, to feel confident to go to an interview.

47:13So, you know, when they come and come to read, they're already ready. Well, I would encourage people to engage with you on this because it sounds great, both for the primary schools, preparing young children that go traveling, on the transport network and also for the enjoyment to employment. Yes. And we really get a lot out of it too. And that's an area where our commercial endeavors support and fund that work that we do as a charity. You've talked a lot in our conversation so far, Elizabeth, about the importance of innovation. And you introduced the Transported by Culture initiative when you became CEO at the London Transport Museum.

47:56Could you tell me a little bit about that? This is a real passion project. So the inspiration for it goes back to 2022 when there was a lot of funding for the arts cut in London. And I had a conversation, very, very quick conversation with the mayor and the deputy mayor at our annual fundraising dinner about that, just off the cuff. And I thought, I have to do something about this. So what I did was repurposed four of our existing posters in our collection to celebrate cultural organizations in London. And with the help of TFL, we put them out on the network. So then they became transport posters.

48:41So which were the organizations? Well, it was ENO, South Bank Centre, Royal Opera House, and LSO, London Symphony Orchestra. And the NO is the English National Opera.

49:22We've started to commission new artists to do new posters so they become part of the collection. Officially, to be a transport poster, it has to go on the line. I have wonderful support from TFL and the mayor to do that. I've just announced the second year of our music program. We've taken the skills work that we do with young people into arts. So we auditioned and cast 11 young musicians to come and play for our visitors. And so that happens every Friday afternoon in the gallery. So people will come and sit and listen or they'll have no idea. So every Friday, different young musicians. Every Friday, a different musician in the cohort.

50:11So last year we had a wonderful cohort of musicians and some of them are going on to amazing careers. I mean, we're getting them just at the start of their brilliant next step. Well, this is another thing that people probably don't know. So if you go on a Friday afternoon, you have a concert thrown in. Yes. Two o 'clock. Right. Very good. Buy a latte that has a roundel design on it and sit and enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. When you finish your work. And theater. We have a theater that is underneath the shop. And a lot of people don't know that. And I've been trying to use that for some more kind of creative theatrical productions.

50:45So. You have your own theater. We have a theater. So there's lots of options here. So how many does it seat your theater? 110 people. So it's not large, but it's large enough. And it's not a huge stage, but you can do small plays. We do film screenings, talks. Interesting. And you could use it for business presentations. We do. And that's typically what we use it for. So it's trying to pivot and continue to use it for business and people who like to do product launches and things. Sounds like a great place to do that. Yeah. You know, I work around the corner. I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot.

51:20So I'm going to use it. Well, we also have a boardroom that can be hired. I've got one of them, but that's useful for others. Yeah, that's good. And it's surrounded in moquette, too. Very good. So these are sort of ways that you're making the museum more connected with London's wider arts and creative scene. Well, it's our location. And you see that as an important thing to do. I think it's a really important thing to do because it's, you know, our location in West And I think it's rooted in, you know, who we are and the collection. You know, the poster collection is artistic. Our design heritage is incredible.

51:52And I think making those more overt links with other creative organizations is important. I think we all need to work together because I think we probably are undervalued as a sector in terms of how we work as a magnet for visitors and how we enrich people's lives by the output and content we create. Yeah. So how important, Elizabeth, do you think entrepreneurial thinking is, given what you've just been saying, in sustaining cultural institutions today? I think it's essential. I think you can never rely on your laurels. I said we had our best year ever, and I'm already going, oh, no, I've got new targets to hit.

52:36And I think things are moving so quickly that we have to be able to pivot and reinvent and see new opportunities. And honestly, I think the Transported by Culture initiative is about new audiences. So I can reach people that way that would have thought, oh, that's just a museum for old buses. Well, no, not at all. And then our core audience is suddenly experiencing and learning something new. So I think it's a win-win to try new things. Yeah, and you have to keep doing that. So what excites you the most about the future for the London Transport Museum? I'm really excited about LTM 50, this project to regenerate the museum by 2030.

53:25So I have this mission now. I'm like, we will not stop. And I feel it's relentless. It's relentless. LTM 50. Exactly. And, you know, every business will have its kind of priorities and things. So I've made this the organizational priority for the last two years. And this new budget that we're just working on, 26, 27, has exactly that at its heart. And so I'm passionate about that because I think it is the way to make the museum more sustainable, more exciting, and expand our opportunities. You know, I have big ambitions for London Transport Museum. I can see how it can have bigger reverberations.

54:10We've been talking about ideas. We've been talking about innovation. You've made it clear that 20 % of your funding is sort of written in, but you have to raise the other 80%. How does that affect your appetite for risk? Because, I mean, you can't make too many mistakes, can you? Well, I think you have to look at it as like a little portfolio and choose some things that you'll take risk on and then take care of the things you have to bank. So I love to have little pilots, or I call them whatever I have to call them so people just think, okay, we'll just try that little thing. So right now we are experimenting with a talking poster, an AI talking poster.

54:48And so that has some startup costs, and we've got some help doing that. So Hidden London, the tours we do, they were a pilot initially. That was, oh, there's this deserted space. Could we go and take people in, and would they pay for the opportunity to go behind the scenes. So you start small and you manage the risk that way. So I think... I think that's a good message for any entrepreneur, really. Try things, start them small and see what happens. And don't put all your eggs in one basket. So look after the core stuff. Make sure every day you're opening the museum and it's running well and it's not neglected or falling apart.

55:29and you do need investment just to stand still. So I think that's the key. So what's this talking poster tell us? Oh, well, it's been trained on our content. So it will be a closed system. So you can't ask it for tips for the stock market, but it will be about learning about the collection. So how do I get from bank to Hatten Cross? it will tell me, will it? What's the best poster in your collection? Well, I think you'll find. Okay, so it will answer your queries. Yes. Well, I'll go and try that on my next visit. Thanks. No, I wish you every success with that. I think it's a wonderful institution.

56:14I'd like to see it sustained and grow and be successful for another 50 years, obviously. So future generations can enjoy it. And they'll be looking back at the funny things we traveled around in and thinking, wow, I wonder what that was like when they've all got there. They're all flying around in self-driven vehicles. So yes, I wish you continued success. We have a poster that's 100 years old that imagines the future that did have flying cars by Montague Black. So you're absolutely right. Well, I mean, who knows? They'll look back at the funny things we traveled on. I was thinking the chairman carrying that man in his sedan chair.

56:56Yeah. So I wish you absolute success with that. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me today, Elizabeth.

57:06I always ask two questions at the end of my podcast conversation. The first is that because at Reed, we love Mondays, is what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? What gets me up on a Monday morning? the excitement to cycle into my office actually I like to cycle through London streets and I yeah I like to get into the West End on a Monday you enjoy the journey how appropriate I enjoy the journey exactly oh that's good and my last question from my interview book why you is where you see yourself in five years time? I see myself enjoying the fruits of our labor for LTM 50 and walking through the museum and just being so proud and astounded by what we've accomplished because I know it will be done by then.

58:01I'm visualizing a ribbon being cut and applause. So I hope that happens. Exactly. That's what I'm waking up to now. The sound of, you know, So, happiness. I'll go for that. And I wish you every success. Thanks so much. Thanks for coming and talk to me. Thank you very much for having me. It's a real pleasure.

58:23Thank you, Elizabeth, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about the London Transport Museum or Reid, you'll find links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.