88. How to build a disruptive product without outspending industry giants | Mark Rushmore

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management, and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.

0:29How do you disrupt a category dominated by billion-dollar incumbents? Using something as ordinary as a toothbrush. Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Mark Rushmore, co-founder of Suri, the sustainable electric toothbrush brand challenging some of the world's biggest consumer companies. In this episode, we discuss founder burnout, building a design-led challenger brand, and what it takes to scale a hardware business in an increasingly competitive consumer market.

1:03Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Mark Rushmore to the studio. Mark is the co-founder and CCO, that's Chief Commercial Officer, of Suri, which is short for Sustainable Rituals. and this is a sustainable personal care brand best known for its eco-friendly electric toothbrush and people watching will see these wonderful Suri toothbrushes in front of you Mark. This is a toothbrush that uses plant-based brush heads and is fully recyclable unlike it's important to stress alternatives from huge companies like Oral-B and Philips. Before founding Suri with his co-founder Ajiv Safavi, I hope I've pronounced that correctly, in 2021.

1:48Mark worked at major consumer brands like Procter & Gamble and Kellogg's, building experience in marketing, branding, and product strategy. Welcome, Mark. You've got a great story you've built and are building a great business. It all began at P &G. What did you learn there? Well, firstly, thank you for having me. It really is an honor to be here. I'm a massive fan of you as an entrepreneur and what you and your family built. So yeah, it's great to be here. And then in terms of Procter & Gamble, I absolutely loved working there. A lot of my best friends to this day, the best man from my wedding, my neighbors are all friends who I made at Procter & Gamble.

2:24And I think actually it was a brilliant opportunity as a graduate to really learn the ropes of running a consumer brand across all sorts of different facets. You were given a lot of responsibility very early. They invest in training. And so it's a great place to learn, almost like a practical MBA in running a consumer goods company. It's interesting because you're not the first person who sat in our guest chair who started out at Procter & Gamble. It's clearly a good schooling, a good starting point for a successful entrepreneurial career. Like a practical MBA is a nice way of describing it. It really is.

2:57And I think one thing that they do is attract, I think they recruit actually heavily using psychometric testing as well. And so there's a certain personality type and attitude, which means that when you do join, you sort of find a lot of like-minded people, which is really interesting. Do you know what they look for? I don't know. I don't want to get it wrong, but there's a rumor that they look for insecure overachievers. So people who want to... A rumor, okay. Yeah, like, you know, and actually I think there's something in that, you know, people who really want to perform and do their best, but aren't quite sure they're good enough and therefore are hungry to always prove themselves and will work harder, go the extra mile, a bit competitive, maybe done extracurricular activities.

3:40But really, there's like a certain attitude, a certain hunger that comes from that type of person. So, you know, the founder of Octopus Energy, the founder, Richard Harpin, I believe, who sold. He's been here. Richard Harpin. Yeah. And Frankie from the Chartered Management Institute. Yeah. He's been here. I mean, there were several people. There really are. And, you know, even in my cohort, there's another who set up a company called Mouse. They're doing tens of millions in revenue. Anisha, who's in the intake below me, who set up Scrumbles, a cat food brand. So it's amazing that network, which sort of you keep for life.

4:18You keep it for life. So you have spoken, though, about sort of burnout in business. Tell me about that. What was your experience? Yes. Why is this important to you? Yeah, no, it is important. So after Procter & Gamble, I was working on Pringles when it was acquired by Kellogg's. I helped transition that business. And then I left and I actually embarked on a series of adventures. I won a competition to take part in a round-the-world yacht race. I cycled from Canada to Mexico. I did a ski season in Canada. Yeah. How long does that take? It took about seven weeks. But, you know, we're carrying all of our tents and equipment and food.

4:57So this is the high achiever part of the Procter & Gamble equation. Well, this was sort of, you know, I took a redundancy opportunity. Right. And, you know, as a 26-year-old man, you know, I went from having maybe 500 pound savings to suddenly having, you know, a year and a half salary. Right. And I thought, you know, what should I do? But around the same time, unfortunately, someone I knew not very well, but someone I was sort of in my circle of friends, unfortunately committed suicide. And I thought, as a young age, you know, I'm not going to wait until I retire to sort of live out all my dreams and take a chance, take a risk.

5:29And suddenly I've got this opportunity where I've got some money. I'm going to do those things. And one of them was set up a company. And so I set up the UK office of a German advertising agency. Right. And we sort of built that, scaled it, and sold it. And at the end of selling it, you know, I think I'd focused so much on being successful and, you know, having an exit and making some money that by the time I'd sort of finished it and got that sort of end result, I was pretty shattered, to be honest. So how old were you then? So you went from 26 to what? It must be like my early 30s. So I can't remember the exact age, but maybe I was 33.

6:10So that was like a seven-year journey. Yeah, something like that, exactly. And it was just a really important life lesson because, you know, I was really burnt out and had realized that I was so focused on the outcome. It's like such a cliche, but I didn't enjoy the journey as much. I was really so focused on like, you know, when I'm successful, everything will be great that I kind of ignored the day to day. And, you know, I ended up, you know, taking time out, going some health retreats, actually, you know, some interesting places to kind of reset and rethink about what's important. And I I kind of came to this realization that I want to set up another business.

6:45I wanted to have a business that could scale sort of more exponentially than an agency business model. But also that I wanted to really enjoy what I was doing. And that like actually time truly is like, it's such a cliche, but our most precious commodity more than financial success. So you said quite a lot here that I'd just like to explore a little because I'd like to understand better. So you'd obviously built this advertising agency successfully. you said towards the end of that journey you were burnt out yeah sold it but you were what what do you mean when you say you were burnt out what what how does that physically or emotionally manifest itself a great question so for me for five years i sort of felt like i was pushing a rock up a hill like we we fought and worked so hard for every single pound that we earned and you i think sometimes when things are hard you don't sort of take stock to think about your health um to think about your mental health your relationships and i was just so singly focused on on succeeding um that i'd sort of deprioritize everything else and so as it came to the end and sort of finished the exit um suddenly sort of everything that i'd sort of ignored for a long time sort of kind of compounded into a sort of like where the last five years gone and like I'm shattered physically emotionally mentally and probably just not really prioritizing the right things whether it's relationships or health and all sorts of things and honestly like with Suri the way it's growing as well it is still difficult to you know really get a great balance but kind of reaching this point where i really felt like you know something really needs to change was a very important um kind of deep realization for me you know what i mean it wasn't exactly rock bottom it wasn't woe is me but certainly it sort of forced me to think that if i want to do this again there needs to be a more sustainable scalable way of doing it um and so yeah i don't know if you recall but um i actually went to this place called viva mayor in austria which was really funny at time i think i was probably the youngest person there you know doing all the sort of protocols on this austrian health clinic and i and i believe i bumped into you and your wife actually in a sauna and you did yeah and uh i recall and uh and you know i was just asking you know questions about life and and it just really struck me how generous you were with um how generous and humble genuinely you know given the size and scale of what you've built uh with your advice and it's sort of also So, you know, I saw a group of people who I admire and, you know, looked up to taking care of their health, prioritizing their relationships.

9:29You know, you're there with your wife. And I thought, you know, if I can go again and build something bigger, I'm going to make a more conscious effort to do that because A, it's more sustainable and actually will help me succeed more. But B, also, you know, I really think like time is our most precious commodity, as cliche as it sounds. And so I want to kind of get more enjoyment from every minute rather than just aligning my life for a future outcome. I think you're completely right. I mean, from my own experience, an entrepreneurial life is a sort of busy one. And it's good to take time to look after one's relationships and health.

10:10It's important to do that, actually, if you want to be sustained. And it's a marathon, not a sprint, isn't it? Did you know that there are nearly 1 million 18 to 24 year olds who are currently not in education, employment or training in the UK? This is simply not good enough. And I want to do something about it. That's why REED is launching a new initiative giving£20 ,000 to young entrepreneurs to help them grow their small business. Visit reed.com forward slash entrepreneurs to find out more. we want to support and encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs and i mean look i still get it wrong all the time next week i'm uh on a on a trip to us and i think i've got flights on you know sunday monday tuesday wednesday thursday it's it's hard and you know we're growing rapidly um but you know it's it's trying to work out how do you compete in that marathon What advice might you give yourself now, the younger Mark, about how to avoid burnout, given what you've learned then and since?

11:19I think an important one for me is perhaps not to try and shoulder all the weight of everything that's happening on your own shoulders alone. I think actually having mentors or someone perhaps who's a bit older or more experienced in business like yourself or, you know, it can be anyone. And I think actually sharing those problems with someone who maybe understands the business context, because, you know, it's all very well sharing it with, you know, maybe your family or friends. But if they don't truly understand maybe the pressures of running a company, it can sometimes, you know, there can be a little bit of a disconnect.

11:56I think I probably shouldered too much of it myself and, you know, sort of got into negative cycles of not being as healthy. and I think you know surround yourself with other people who are you know maybe encourage healthy habits but also who you can talk to you know openly and and share those troubles with I think would be like what I would would advise others do so is that an argument for maybe getting a business coach do you do that yeah oh absolutely yeah we have business coach we actually have a like a psychologist who you know works with even i we we invest a lot into training with you know former heads of people from other companies but it really you know that that relationship component and you know having someone to address your fears concerns you know so you have a business psychologist yeah yeah yeah um so focused on you as a business partnership and the exactly yeah Yeah, and it can be different topics at different times.

12:58But we know that one of the sort of top five reasons companies at scale fail is, you know, its founders falling out. And so, you know, we thought from the beginning, like, we really need to invest in our relationship and ensure that, you know, we're sort of supporting our own mental health, our relationship. and yeah I actually one of someone I met actually has uh this world famous uh couples therapist Esther Perel as their business coach all right you know which I which I thought was I we haven't gone that far yet well famous couples therapist yeah that's a good idea I was going to ask you where do you find a business psychologist so you know we stumbled into our uh our first um support which is Dr.

13:42Paul Fury. He was working with some of our investors and he was working with a lot of like top financial investors and coaching them. I think we then read that a lot of top athletes and people in finance often have performance coaches, you know, Formula One, I think famously, use a variety of different people. And so we started investigating that further. And then for me, the recommendations, personal recommendations are really important and then fit. And so we've been recommended different people at different stages of our journey who can support in different areas. Sometimes it's around organizational change, sometimes around personal relationships, sometimes it's around just how we're feeling.

14:26But I do think emotional well-being is really important. And yeah, I think a lot of the top founders who I meet have some sort of level of support across these areas, which helps them. So you found that helpful and valuable? Yeah, enormously. And so because of that, you're happy to commit time to it, I guess. Is it quite time-consuming? Not that time-consuming. It is extremely difficult when you're very busy. And honestly, sometimes we all deprioritize it. That's why I wonder how you fit all this in, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that's probably never a good time for something. Do you know what I mean?

15:05I talked to a psychologist. And so it's just like, you know, we're just going to do it. and we're going to do it right now. Because it's important rather than urgent, I suppose. Exactly. And if it can relieve some pressure, if it can unlock a new way of thinking about something, if it can improve a relationship, if it can enable you to handle more stress and deal with more difficult situations with an even mind, you just become more effective. And again, there's a reason why top athletes, every top athlete has a variety of coaches or therapists who support them to get optimum performance. And I think what, you know, and it's true of business people as well.

15:45Now, obviously, we can't afford, you know, the kind of top quality coaches that Lewis Hamilton can afford. But we, you know, there are a lot of different people who you can learn from. I mean, really. Well, you might find a good one on their trajectory upwards. Yeah. You might get them early in their career. Exactly. And that comes back to doing more with less. You know, sometimes we'll negotiate a deal with someone and say, look, you know, we're not the size of Google, but, you know, we have this really interesting opportunity. And this is how, you know, we can support you back. And, you know, there's often a deal to be had.

16:20So I don't know. Do you mentor anyone? I have done in the past. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if it's OK, maybe we could agree, you know, if you would be up for doing like an hour, you know. We'll do some mentoring and I'll share the psychological coach. Yeah. That'd be very interesting. you've started this new business sorry that's exactly right so so how did that come about so it actually happened from a from a chance encounter i don't know if i don't know if you've ever had this in your life where you know for some reason you were in the same place as someone at the same time maybe it's how you met your wife or a business partner but i i was very lucky to be at an industry event um and i ended up on this little um speedboat sat next to this other young guy we got chatting and it turned out that he had also worked at procter and gamble albeit in geneva um managing gillette and we just became instantly became friends and you know an hour later we were talking about you know what we would do um to improve how fast moving consumer goods are sold So one thing that we were conscious of is the amount of plastic packaging that's put out into the world and a lot of superfluous packaging, which is maybe too large or with bits that you just throw away.

17:35And actually that sort of that vast impact, you know, it was just enormous. And then the other thing we talked about was about consumer experience. I think Apple really redefined, you know, the value proposition of a product. It's not just a physical product. Even the unboxing becomes something that, you know, is part of the experience. the customer service, the aesthetic, how you engage and interact with it. And so we felt that that was also lacking in consumer goods. So we became friends, that's Gieve and I, and we, you know, I'd sold my company, he actually was then running an e-commerce business, he left.

18:12And then we looked at, you know, different categories. And we saw that with toothbrushes, billions and billions of them get thrown away every single year and end up in landfills and notions i'm you know afraid to say probably you know almost every brush you've ever used since you're a boy probably still exists somewhere because the materials they're made out of which you know for one person is alarming but then when you multiply that by everyone it's quite a thought um and then we're like wow that that seems that doesn't seem great but you know let's dig into this further and then we we looked at electric toothbrushes and saw that you know it's a really fast-growing segment of the category because they're you know unequivocally much more effective than manual brushes but you know when we interviewed thousands and thousands of um consumers and ask them you know what brand do you use and often people couldn't recall the name of the brand that they're using we're like but how often how often are you using it well twice a day how long have you been using that brush for five years but you can't tell me the name and that sort of started ringing an alarm bell it's like wow that's that's a bit of an apathy there um you know it's you know They bought it out of just necessity, not out of any sort of brand love or affinity.

19:19And then we said, well, actually, I should ask you, have you ever connected your phone to your toothbrush? And do you check that every day? No. Of course not, right? Have you ever had the horrible gunky stuff on the bottom? Yes. Yes, right? It's terrible. And do you always take it when you go traveling with you? No. No, because it's clunky. The battery dies. No, I take a manual one. take a manual one because because of all these features that like aren't that great for you and so given i had this hypothesis what if we can make a brush that was both more sustainable but also you know with features you love so like a long battery life you know really high performance clinically proven clean um but with you know more sustainable materials with a uv light in the case with usbc charge with a magnetic mirror mount so you don't get that gunk and and we launched in may 22 and i don't know it was this real nerve-wracking like will anyone like this you know like is this going to work but so you had no real sense well we must have had some idea well i mean our whole hunch was based on the fact that it was going to work but you know until you launch you just never fully know but within a week we'd sold out of our first 5 000 units so how did you sell them so through meta advertising so you know through facebook through instagram right and we'd sent some to journalists you know we told every single person we knew who brushed their teeth which you know it was a few family and friends most people um and so we kind of persuaded a few people on that but it was it was really exciting we're like we're really happy for about half an hour and then we're like oh this is terrible news now we're out of stock and you know what do we do now and so we had to go back onto pre-order and order more stock um which you know you don't really want to do as a consumer goods company but yeah we sort of failed forward from there so so if i might compliment you your packaging you talked about is really beautiful and the product is very well thought through and designed i mean how long did that take and and what was the process you went through to create what is a you know very unique toothbrush i can see why it sold out basically thank you very much so so what was the process that got you to that point when you had a really lovely product that people wanted to buy and fell in love with, really?

21:38Sure. So it started with those insights around sustainability and really the consumer insights about what they liked and what they didn't like. And then truly my co-founder, Geeve, is, I don't know, I think we call him Geeve Jobs internally after his, you know, the person he looks up to, Steve Jobs. And he... Geeve Jobs. Geeve Jobs, yeah. Yeah. But they share some similarities and certainly one is attention to detail. But, you know, we did a lot of deep research and we did it together looking at what different materials could you use. And so we use cornstarch in our head and castor oil in the bristles.

22:14So say that again, cornstarch. Cornstarch. So that's the head of the... That's the head and then castor oil in the bristles. So it's a PLA material. And so as far as I'm aware, no one was using these materials, right? and the problem with that is that when you go to a factory and say oh we you know we want to do this brand new thing that's not been done before with new materials that's not really in the interest of you know they're like no no just take this existing one we already know how to make it this is our design your one sounds risky and expensive and it might not work and no one wants those materials and so we had a really hard time persuading anyone to take you know this this risk on these two guys make them for you yeah to actually make them and so you know we spoke to i think 24 factories rejected us and just said it was impossible um and candidly you know after the 24th rejection i was thinking yeah i'm not i'm not even sure this is possible maybe we should compromise on certain areas but to your credit i mean 24 is quite a lot of rejections yeah you didn't yeah i think i think you kept going i kept going you know i think i'm i i became very good at rejection as a young man from an early age but um but truly actually some of the best sales people i've ever met are people who've done door-to-door sales and just learning that rejection isn't it's not a personal thing it's not you know it's not it's not you as a person that's being rejected it's it's you know maybe the way the proposition is or maybe it's not the right offer for the person and so i think having developed quite a thick skin like as an early age i'm i don't mind taking risks and i don't mind people you know saying no um but giv is incredibly stubborn you know when he says something is possible you know a million people could tell him it's it's not possible and he'll still believe it is possible.

23:59And fortunately, he said, let's try one more. So fortunately, we got to the 25th supplier and they said, yes, they were willing to take that risk. And so we'd started with the insights, then we had looked at the materials, then we fortunately created a design and a huge stroke of luck, we found a world-class industrial designer who'd just graduated from a university in California and was about to join one of the world's leading design firms and he was in between jobs. so you know we found him through an online recruitment uh platform and so he was an industrial designer he was yeah and and he he just created this beautiful design and then joined our company subsequently and didn't go to that large design firm and so so he's still with you that was a stroke of luck uh he still is an advisor with us um but he's he's moved back to america and so it's you know a combination of luck stubbornness determination and and you know willing supplier you know who we built this relationship with that brought this product which maybe didn't want to come to life to come to life so i mean it's interesting to me as well i mean it's a premium product isn't it it's not cheap no so how much would one of these typically retail so um at full price is 105 pounds and then occasionally we will um run a special discount so you know it might be around like black friday or or certain times of the year so that people can get maybe you know 15 percent or or even you know at very peak times maybe a 25 discount and so although it sort of sits at a premium end of toothbrushes there are some brushes believe it or not which retail at 600 and so they then appear often in shops at 70 % off, 80 % off we feel strongly that it's a little bit deceptive to have a product at this high price but actually sell it at a low price and potentially a little bit confusing for a shopper and so we wanted to have a better everyday price with shallower discounts but that was quite brave as well wasn't it pitching into that part of the market as a new entrant yes no no definitely it's it's you know it's a challenge because we want to really make suri accessible to as many people but we also knew that we we had to launch with you know a really great product um give to his credit you know in software people talk about an mvp the minimum viable product which i think in software makes total sense you know get something live you know get feedback iterate it because you can change it quickly.

26:40With hardware, it's really different. You have one chance to make a first impression, a second impression. And so we wanted to create a minimum lovable product, because we knew that if we could create something that people truly loved and described it in those words, that we could build a brand. And I'm really glad to say the thing that I think we're most proud of, bar none, is that we have now over 17 ,000 reviews on Trustpilot with a 4.7 out of five rating making it by far the most highly rated electric brush on trust pilot and the most ai thing i've ever done i don't know if you're big into ai trying to be yeah trying to be me too and so the most ai thing that we that i think we've done recently is we downloaded all of our trust pilot reviews and created a custom gpt so that we could talk to the gpt like it was all the people who reviewed us and we could ask it questions we can interpret the data we can ask all sorts of different things for different reasons.

27:35But one of the questions we ask is, you know, what's the most commonly used word to describe Surrey in all the reviews? Yes. And the word is love. All right. I mean, you know. So your minimum lovable product is really delivered then? Well, it really has. And the funny thing is, you know, I love our product, but, you know, it's such a joy to know that other people, and they say, you know, I never thought I could love brushing my teeth. Or, you know, I love the brand. I love the product, I love the service. And the result of that is if you love something, do you know what you do? You tell other people you love about it.

28:13And so most of our customers are actually, you know, an excuse, a pun. They come from word of mouth. And it's a good pun. Yeah. I mean, I've got plenty more. Scalable. And so, you know, what we see is, you know, one person in the family will buy it, But then invariably, they'll buy it for their mother, their father, their brother, their sister, their son, their daughter, their grandparent, because everyone brushes their teeth. And, you know, it's such a nice thing. You know, you're using it twice a day. You can think of them. It's good for their health. You know, it's a reasonable price point.

28:47And it's something that you love, like you enjoy using it. And so it's a really nice byproduct to know that intention that we set out and through all the details that we painstakingly look at has translated into this emotion, which ultimately, what a joy. So if someone listening or watching wants to find a Suri brush and doesn't know where to go, where can they find these? Where can they buy them? Sure. So they can buy them from our website, trisuri.com. They can buy them from Amazon. They can buy them from Boots. recently from John Lewis from Curry's from Planet Organic. There's a few other retailers I can't say right now, but may be appearing on their shelves soon.

29:26And then for our US cousins and friends, you can buy them in Target. You can buy them in Erewhon stores, which is a fancy store in LA. And watch this space because there may be some other US retailers coming. So you're building your distribution network, obviously. Yes. But Suri.com. Try Suri.com. Try Suri.com. Okay. Unfortunately, we haven't got the Suri.com domain names. Rumor has it that Tom Cruise, whose daughter is called Suri, is sitting on it. But I don't know if that's true. Okay. Well, Tom, if you're listening, you might have a buyer. Yeah. So try Suri.com. Yes. Thank you. And Amazon is obviously easy for people to find.

30:04And Suri is spelled S-U-R-I. Yeah. So where next with this? Where next? So if you brush your teeth, I think we want to be helping you in some way. And that doesn't matter where you live or what age you are. We want to create solutions which really deliver on the Surrey promise, which is really around three core pillars. Performance, giving you a really highly effective, clinically proven dentist-approved clean design. Products that not only look great, but have great features that you want. Long battery life, pressure sensors, the UV light. How long does the battery last? It's over four weeks on a single charge.

30:42Right. which you know you shouldn't have to worry about your battery dying all the time instead you should just be focused on brushing your teeth and getting on with your day but then also sustainability we offer free recycling um actually we you know if you write free post surrey that you can put your heads into an envelope they come back to us we then have worked with the university of exeter and others to actually we're doing a partnership with a company called reborn we grind them up and then we re-injection mold them and create new products so soap trays so 18 of our heads is then turned into a soap tray which we then sell and so by doing so we've we've removed in the last year three tons of potential plastic heads from you know landfills and oceans and instead have you know breathed new life into them right so there's a huge amount there um

31:33you're i mean i'm thinking you're competing in a pretty crowded space with you against huge companies like phillips um i mean that's quite a brave thing to sort of decide to do i mean but but i suppose the upside is you know there's a market for that i mean you know that people are going to be brushing their teeth so what was the thinking here i mean because part of it looks i mean it's a defended hill as i would describe it in a sense because the There are big companies that are already delivering these products. Well, so a few things. I think maybe I'm just quite a basic person. I'm just real business 101 stuff.

32:15So ask customers what they like and what they don't like. Think of a large addressable market. How many people do you know who brush their teeth? Yeah. It's everyone. And it's everyone in every country in some form. Right? It is one of the most commonly done habits on a daily basis. Not everyone washes their hair every day. There are not many categories with higher penetration than brushing your teeth. And as you say, rightly, in the electric toothbrush space, two companies hold an 80 % market share. Now, can you think of another? So those two are? Oral-B and Philips. Oral-B and Philips. Yeah.

32:53Now, we're really lucky. the former global CEO of Philips, Sinead Quant, is on our board. And we have great advisors from a range of different oral care companies of different shapes and sizes. And so we have a really expert team along with a dental professional team. We have a dental advisory board of some of the leading voices from hygienists, you know, the former head of the British Dental Hygienist Association, one of the lead professors and former scientific advisor to the British Dental Association. We have, you know, the judge of dentist of the year. I mean, really, you know, leading industry people along with policymakers, you know, who are looking at, you know, how do we inform public health policy around dental care supporting us?

33:41And so I think, you know, it kind of talks to our ambition and our vision, which is, yes, there are two very well-established people with a defended hill but you know as of today you know if you were to look on amazon we are the number one best-selling sonic toothbrush on the market right we outsell you know in the sonic category of which one of those two players plays we outsell every other product and that's within you know four short years and so if we can replicate that across every market where people brush their teeth you can kind of get the idea of the scale of the opportunity and our ambition Sure, sure.

34:20So, I mean, Amazon is a good outlet for global growth. It is, yeah. So how do you move from the UK to, say, France? With Amazon specifically or just generally? Is Amazon the route to do that or would you do it differently? So I think AI is changing things so rapidly. You know, I was in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago with a range of founders who are in their 20s and they're based all around the world. And they are scaling companies to 100, 200 million dollars bootstrapped with no external investment within, you know, an 18 month period. My mind's blown. Like, how on earth do you guys do that? We're growing quickly, but that is another level.