91. How to build your own talent pipeline | Lisa Bryer OBE & Charlie Kennard MBE

0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it take to build a sustainable creative industry and open the doors to people who never thought they belonged in it? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Lisa Briar, award-winning film producer and founder of Cowboy Films, and Charlie Kennard, CEO of Day One Trust and co-founder of London Screen Academy.

0:49In this episode, we discuss the business of creativity, how the UK can build more sustainable pathways into the creative industries, and why education, entrepreneurship and industry partnerships could reshape the future of the creative economy.

1:13well today on all about business i'm really delighted to welcome not one guest but two and we're going to be talking about how to build businesses and careers in the creative industries um first i'd like to introduce lisa bryer um lisa's an award-winning film producer and the founder of Cowboy Films, which made very influential music videos for artists such as David Bowie and The Cure, and also the wonderful film The Last King of Scotland. Lisa is one of the co-founders of the London Screen Academy. And this is an amazing free sixth form school for young people pursuing careers in film and TV, which I've been lucky enough to visit.

1:55And that brings me to Charlie. Charlie Kennard is a British education leader and social entrepreneur focused on helping young people access careers in the creative industries. Charlie was the head teacher at the London Screen Academy from July 2019 to March last year, and is now CEO of Day One Trust, which has more than one such academy. So I'm really delighted to welcome you both. Thanks so much for coming into the studio. I'm really looking forward to this conversation because young people so deserve our help and support at the moment, with the job market being as tough as it is. And so many of them I know love the idea of working in creative industries.

2:38So what does it take to be an entrepreneur in this sector, or indeed have a good career in it is what we'll be exploring. So Lisa, I'd like to start with you if I may. How did cowboy films come about? How did you start this brilliant business? Okay, so if you take yourself back to the 80s and music videos and films and vibrant London and the start of MTV, I was at a huge company in Golden Square, MGMM, with directors all over the place, producers all over the place. we were in the middle myself and my partner, Tim Pope, who is a wonderful music video director. We were in the middle of shooting a Cure video and a Honey Monster sugar puffs commercial.

3:23So hang on, a Cure video is the band. The band, the Cure. Not a Cure for some medical. Yeah, no, no, no. The band, the Cure. The Cure. I want to just establish that first. Absolutely. And a sugar puff. And a Honey, do you remember? Yes, I remember both. So right in the middle of those. And literally the MD of the company came in to my office and said, we've just gone bankrupt and you have 24 hours to get out. And we were literally in the middle of these two big productions. So I picked up all our work, did a deal with Young and Rubicon, who we were doing the Honey Monster commercial with, and said, listen, we'll finish off here.

4:04We'll finish off the Cure video. We'll take 50 % of the production markup. With that, I set up Cowboy Films. My partner said, okay, what are we going to name it? I said, you choose, you're the creative. He said, well, you're the old cow and I'm the boy. Let's call it Cowboy Films. That's kind of rude. Is that how it came about? That's how it came about. We started in my old flat. having the business hat on, for me, I didn't want to go into offices or have an overhead until we'd actually got some money in the bank. Once we'd finished off the commercial and the Cure music video, and I think then we were doing a live concert at the Albert Hall with the Matt Johnson.

4:52We did a couple of productions from the flat and then gradually we got officers, staff, and that was the start of Cowboy Films. What really strikes me about this story is when it began from what sounded like a bit of a disaster, we've gone dust. And you turned that disaster into an opportunity. I never wanted to be in a position again where I couldn't pay my crew. And, you know, when a company goes bankrupt, the people who really suffer are the crew. and I swore to myself that whatever I did next, I would have some kind of control, which is why we started Cowboy. And we were able to pay off the crew, who were absolutely fantastic from those two productions, and then continue.

5:43But it really was, it was one of those things where within 24 hours, this building that had been doing David Bowie commercials, feature films, In fact, Eric Felden was upstairs doing Sid and Nancy, a fantastic feature film. We were all in the middle of this amazing work, and we had 24 hours to vacate the building. You did something positive with that. Sid and Nancy came out, because I remember it was about Sid Vicious, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so Charlie, what industry gap were you trying to solve with the schools that you started? I mean, you came into this sector from a different direction.

6:26Tell me about that journey. Yeah, so I'm a teacher. So I studied economics at university, and I always thought I'd be a management consultant because that was everything, the cool thing that all the economics kids did. And I did a program called Teach First, which allowed me to teach for two years, but kind of kept the dream of working for one of the big three consultants. And that's still going, isn't it? That's still going, yeah. It's a good idea for lots of people to think about, actually, in its own right. Yeah, it takes graduates and places them in schools where there's high needs. and so for the graduate it's great because you get a real sense of purpose you get to learn huge amount of leadership skills which I guess we'll talk about later which I think then can be applied to anything but you also develop and keep options open so I did that so I'm so I was a teacher I never I never went into the industry I stayed in education and here I am some 20 years later just like by way of context our schools we have two schools they're 16 to 19 they're very vocational practical and they they work across games music and film and television so they're training young people for those industries how many students uh so we have 900 students at london screen academy which is film and tv in the screen industries and then at east london arts music or elam we have 300 students studying music and games primarily um and so i guess the question of what gaps were we trying to to fill when we started those industries that i just uh that's almost like a negative like there was a gap i think the the thing for us when we started was those industries that we've just said so film and tv and the stories lisa just said using games like the uk is a global powerhouse in those things we punch well above our weight when it comes to those industries so there's a few industries we're really good at the creative industry is one of them i think financial services historically we've been globally very strong at maybe pharmaceuticals so it would be kind of remiss of me to say well there were loads of gaps we were trying to plug what we were trying to do is go wow look at these industries we want them to continue to be a superpower in this country so if we can ensure that there is a supply of talented skillful people and i think i guess the gap or the the opportunity cost we saw in those industries um it's like a very well-known story that those industries um aren't very representative of society as a whole um you know there's lots of middle-class people who are thriving in those industries they're not very diverse in terms of ethnic backgrounds and that's a problem on two lenses that's one just a fairness issue it's like that's not quality it's also like a commercial issue because imagine if you said we're going to open up the talent pipeline where anyone how much better we would be in terms of the output of those industries um so our vision i would say kind of if you wanted to be a doctor a lawyer a banker in this country they're hard things to do it's pretty transparent how you do it you go and do these a-levels you do this internship that's kind of open to anyone if you want to go and work a cowboy or you want to go and be a producer or you want to be a music video director way more opaque and therefore the talent pool has really shrunk because it's kind of who you know and you create this.

9:16So what we were trying to do was go, let's ensure these industries continue by making sure that there's an incredible supply of talented young people and let's widen that so every young person has an opportunity and the outcome with better industries we would expect to see, I think. Did you encounter any resistance to getting these started, these schools? Not really. I think there's a really interesting leadership. So people always ask and expect more. So Elam started in 2014 when Michael Gove launched the free schools initiative. And that was your initiative, Elam? So Elam was one of the first free schools.

9:48And lots of those free schools have thrived. Quite a few didn't. And I think the really magical story for us is we never set out to build a school. So my brother's a very successful musician. I was in education. And I said, isn't it mad that all the kids that I teach are more talented than you, yet you've gone on a headline to Glastonbury and sold all these records? What's his name? He's in a band called Chase and Statists. He's had six albums with Universal. He's had number one records. He's taught the world. But these people you were coming across were better than? Yeah. Like when he was 15, he wasn't the most talented musician.

10:20He had the privilege that we had of being able to like, you know, have developed some professional skills, have the ability to drop out of university and spend time in a studio. Um, and he didn't punch me in the face when I said that to him, he had seen it himself because he taught in Manchester for a little bit after he dropped out to pay for his students. So what you're saying is he and you and your family had a sort of hinterland that gave you a bit of freedom to be creative and do stuff that other people wouldn't have because they didn't have the resource. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so we were going to set up, I was going to say, let's bring some kids from my school into your studio and try and inspire them.

10:54And so we didn't start from a point of let's build a school and let's try and justify why that school needs to exist. We started from the conversation of let's bring some kids into the studio. we spoke to a few people from the world of education from the world of industry and that snowballed into us setting up a school um so i think it was the school was driven by demand not us trying to justify demand so it was actually more people saying you need to do more than this you need to do x but then you had to get support from the government or the yeah authority does finance it i'm imagining yeah so we went through the approval process with the department for education but um it kind of snowballed and we couldn't stop it because i think that the reason for its existence was so strong um and so now when we try and build new projects and things like that i think just any entrepreneur anyone building anything like testing to trying to find reasons why it will fail and understanding those because you will have riddled with bias about your own idea and so i think it's a nice story for us of you know we never wanted to set up a school So what year did it open?

11:53It opened in September 2014, you know. And then five years later, we met five of the biggest film producers in the world, and we opened the film school. Did you know that there are nearly 1 million 18 to 24-year-olds who are currently not in education, employment, or training in the UK? This is simply not good enough, and I want to do something about it. That's why READ is launching a new initiative, giving£20 ,000 to young entrepreneurs, to help them grow their small business. Visit reed.com forward slash entrepreneurs to find out more. We want to support and encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs.

12:33Well, let's hear about that. I mean, that's a logical takeaway. So what happened? How did you come to meet? And what was the sort of genesis of the film school? I mean, it was really interesting because after Last King of Scotland, being a mom of 10-year-old boys, I felt I had to spend a little bit more time at home. Because production is 24-7, 24-7, 24-7. But I wanted to immerse myself in education because I was very dyslexic, never passed an exam in my life. And the one thing that I'd missed through my sort of adult life and setting up cowboy films was the background of education. I'm a bit of a street fighter and I have a good nose for people, but the education side was very lacking.

13:29And I got myself involved with a Prue school, takes kids who basically failed and it's their last resort before Bostol or prison. An approved school. An approved school. Really, sadly, by that stage, there wasn't that much you could do because these kids were already not really able to be taught. They were very damaged. So my dream was to start something that would combine education and the creative industries, which had been so good to me. But as I discovered at Cowboy Films, it was only really, as Charlie said, that the people I was employing, the people who were coming for the jobs were very middle class, upper class.

14:24They were always friends of people. it was a very small circle and I wanted to do something that was much more inclusive. You know, the reason why I am where I am is I had that infrastructure growing up and I wanted to do something for young people where they didn't have that kind of infrastructure. And at the same time, Tim Bevan and Eric Felna of Working Title, who are really old friends of mine, were noticing that on all their film sets, there was no diversity. so we got together one day and said look what can we do and I said I think I'd had a little bit of experience at the approved school I think we can do something through education I think we can combine education with the creative industries and start a sixth form or start a school that actually to start with we thought 14 to 19 which would have failed um and luckily actually it was the guy running Islington Council who said, I will support you, but it needs to be 16 to 19, not 14 because it's too young.

15:32So we thought, okay. So you go there sort of after GCSEs. Exactly. So GCSEs, and then we look at your results. And if you'd passed a certain amount and come and have an interview, then hopefully we can give you a place. So that's what we did. Tim and I and Eric got together with a friend of ours who was actually working at the DfE, who was very keen to do something that would involve skills, which in the end would get you jobs. Because for us, Tim, myself, Eric, none of us went to university. We all started in jobs early on in life, but we had contacts. And that was the big difference. We wanted to do something that kids could come to with no infrastructure, no contacts, no uncle who is in the industry, and we would supply them with the contacts and the infrastructure.

16:32So just so people know, where is the school? How do you apply? And when did it open? Just give me a little... I'll let Charlie talk about how you apply and the curriculum. But we opened, And we're now in our sixth year. It was very tough getting it open. We were lucky we had the support of the DFE. But building that building, it's a massive building. We have 900 students. And it was built new. It was built new. But I think because we are film producers and we're used to solving problems day in, day out, and we were so passionate about doing something within the creative industries and education, we just didn't take no for an answer.

17:20And I think we were able to prove, especially when Charlie came on board, that you really could do what we were trying to do, which was for our students to end up with a degree that would either take them into university or into jobs. I think Charlie is much more eloquent at being able to tell you exactly how that happens. Sounds like you're going to do that bit, Charlie. I think the more interesting question for that, I mean, not that I'm asking the questions, but is who's it for? How do you apply? You go onto the website, you make an application. So the website's what? Give us the address. Lsa.ac.uk, or just type London Screen Academy into the browser of your choice and you'll find it.

18:00Fantastic. It's good to get that one nailed down. Yeah, yeah. So then tell us the more interesting bit. Who's it for is an interesting thing, because I think some people assume like, oh, you know, like am i massively into film or or makeup or costume on design um and some of our kids are some of our kids will come to us at 16 having made films already having won awards and and you know hugely recognized stuff but we would say like there will be kids in playgrounds that are braiding hair right and don't really know what they want to do but everyone goes to them to get their hair braided um and that kid will get to the point of options after gcc and go i guess i'll do don't really know maybe english business studies and biology which is great air levels are important and good but we would say well that kid there's a massive demand for that skill that you've demonstrated braiding hair in terms of hair and makeup and particularly hair from underrepresented groups you could turn that into a career a really fruitful really interesting career or the kid that just loves telling stories or the kid that tells really funny stories on tiktok it's like you could be good in post-production um so i think what what we look for are the kids that maybe haven't considered themselves working in film and tv or realizing that actually they have demonstrated all the skills they might just love telling stories they might love art they might love dt and we would say you know you could design sets you could build sets for film for tv for theater and they would go no i never considered that i was just going to do business something and something in a level so the the golden egg for us is finding those kids the kids that love film will come to us but so if you know a young person or a parent is just going to go actually that's my child hold on a second because these are really interesting careers where you can earn good money do really interesting things and use skills that maybe you hadn't realized yeah you could that's brilliant and and it's raising awareness in a wide network yeah make that happen so what what what are the skills that are sort of actually missing from the industry today what are the what are the producers directors filmmakers what are they craving what are they saying we need more people who can do this I think that craving, you know, a lot of it is attitude.

20:02You know, we have a very different, I think after COVID, it's very difficult to find young people who are prepared to get up at four or five o 'clock in the morning and do a very long day and work really, really hard. You know, this working from home has become a huge elephant in the room. So that's getting in the way. I think it is. I think it is. I think what we've been finding recently is, I mean, the whole work environment has changed. Whereas film and television is still film and television. You've still got to film your TV show. You've still got to film your feature film. Maybe just explain, why do you have to get up at four in the morning to work in film and television?

20:52Because you start, if you're an actor in hair and makeup, you always start filming at about eight o 'clock. Because it's daylight. Exactly, because it's daylight. So if you're on location, you need to use every bit of daylight you can, because time is money. If you're in the art department or in the lighting department, you've got to get on set really, really early so that you can prepare the lights, you can prepare the art department, the set, whatever you're building. So the moment the sun comes out, you're ready to shoot. This is interesting, because what I'm hearing is, I mean, you can show someone how to do lighting or hair, but you can't necessarily make them get up at four o 'clock in the morning.

21:37Absolutely. Which is why, for me, education together with skills is so important. Because the other thing that we do with our students is it's the soft skills, it's the attendance, the attitude. I always say to our kids before they leave, you're probably going to go on and you're probably going to start as a runner, either in the art department or in the production side or post-production, but you'll start probably making tea and coffee. Now, the only way you're going to go up the rank is by making the best cup of coffee your boss has ever, ever had. And you put 150 % into that. And the same with your cup of tea.

22:29You're always available. So how do they react to this advice? They look at me and say I'm absolutely mad because they've just done a couple of years of, you know, making short films and, you know, learning so much. But you still say to them that. And I still say to them, and it's all about turning up on time. If you have to be there at seven in the morning, you get there at 10 to seven in the morning. You show willingness, you hold your head up and you will get noticed. and do you think Charlie you're able to get that message across to your students I mean do you start really in the early in the morning or do you have sort of opportunities for them to be tested in this way no well I would slightly challenge what Lisa says a little bit in like in a healthy way where Lisa you're from a generation where you cut your teeth on no and achieved phenomenal success in the industry that I described being world-class was built on the back of people that did that element of work and there is understandably like a shift and a frustration but I think there's a middle point because i think you could argue that um some of those cultures aren't the most inclusive cultures in the world because and i'm not saying early early mornings are fine if you need to shoot early because of the light anyone can get up early sure yeah but like we're going to do this at zero cost at no you know what happens if i want to be a mother or have a family is my life not so is not compatible with the world of film and tv do i have to go and find something else it we should find a middle point and i think young people more broadly are pushing back and i I struggle with that as well, but I don't think it's wholly bad.

24:01So I think there is a middle spot we will find where these industries, not just film and TV, are actually more inclusive. But it's frustrating when you're in it because you're having to manage those two things. But I think there's a fair challenge to that, which we'll find a middle spot where things can evolve and change and not be not rigorous or super successful. They can. And I think by being self-employed, that helps because you can spend a couple of months on a film working 24 seven and it becomes your life. And then because you're making really, really good money, you can then take a break and take a couple of months off and be at home or just rest, whatever you want to do.

24:46And that's one of the great things about the creative industries is you're often self-employed, you're your own boss, and you can work as hard or as little as you want to. This is very interesting because I'm hearing slightly different things from you both. And I was thinking my next question is, what do partners like Netflix, Disney, Sony, these big companies, what do they want from young talent now? Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing that we are, I should say, I'm completely aligned on. are we break our curriculum down into knowledge skills and behavior so things you need to know so i know how a set works i know things that i can do so i can operate x camera i can use and and then the professional behaviors and i would say without doubt kind of what lisa said the thing you're tested on in the entry point of your career is not the not really the like can you operate that camera it will be the professional behavior so can you operate in this dynamic environment where lots of different people want different things of you and you have to read the room you have to communicate to different people in different way there will be potentially talent from multiple different territories and different people of different seniority and that's a really difficult skill and i think that i think kids from privileged backgrounds have a disadvantage there because if you grow up like i did in a middle class background you are used to being around people who are in employment you're more likely to have been in uh environments like this or going on a set or being in an office building you're more likely to have been told you're great for your whole life and full of this sort of sense of self-esteem and privilege.

26:13And that's a disadvantage. That's an advantage. Oh, you just said disadvantage. Sorry, I meant that. No, that's all I was thinking. That's an advantage. I was waiting to find out how it was a disadvantage. And then, you know, I grew up at dinner parties where I was handing out canapes for my mom's friends and all those sorts of things. So talking to different people and all of those things that are steeped in like my privilege. So when I step into a production company, it's not completely new world to me. And I'm able to suddenly like... No, no, I can see that. It's like, yeah, I mean, you're more accustomed to that.

26:43And that's what you're being assessed on, I think, more than... So when these companies bring people in the first instance, they're looking for that sort of behavioral awareness. I think, I mean, you all know this, right? I think every company, when you have an intern, what you're assessing the intern on is like, did that intern, like, make me, was it awkward being around them? Were they able to kind of hold themselves in the space? Were they proactive enough, but not too proactive? You know, did we like having them around? Were they genuinely useful? It's usually that sort of level, isn't it?

27:08And that's the soft skills. And that's so important, is building the self-confidence. So knowledge, skills, behavior. So they sort of fuse into each other, don't they? Yeah. And if we could just do the behaviors, I think we would... What would be the key behaviors that you would say you want your students to leave with? Yeah, yeah. Good question. So I think communication is a huge one. I think there's lots of communication includes listening, includes being able to articulate your idea one-on-one to groups of people. I think that's so key if you're good at that. I'd agree. I think being able to self-reflect is really important.

27:46I think having some resilience and seeing failure as an opportunity to grow. I think all of those things, and as you look at the future industries and AI, and everyone's like, oh my god, what's going to happen tomorrow? Consistently, whether you're talking about Demis from DeepMind, who's the preeminent person talking about the future, he'll say those three things. When people are going, do you need to code or not? He'll go, you need to be able to communicate. You need to be able to demonstrate resilience, leadership. And that's the same in any industry, I think. And also, I think the humility to ask questions.

28:21I think it's really, really important to feel that you can actually ask a question. That you can say, I don't know what you're talking about. Would you explain, please? Yes. So there is a humility to curiosity, isn't it? Yeah. Because you're demonstrating you don't know it all by asking the question. And I think encouraging or giving people the confidence to do that is important. Absolutely. They're not expected to know it all. I always ask people what acronyms mean. In business meetings, there's always someone using acronyms. And a number of times they don't actually know. It's quite interesting.

28:55No, I know. But it's easier. But you wouldn't know that as a youngster coming in. This person is really knowledgeable. That's an easy thing. So that's a good example. imagine if you're a kid who grew up in a single parent household who felt very like out you know this isn't my space if i asked that question you might be wondering what am i telling everyone i'm stupid so you would shy away so you need the confidence to be able to ask that and the self-assurance like no i'm really comfortable in myself so i'm going to ask the stupid question which probably 90 of people in the room want to ask as well but they do in my experience exactly It's so important to be able to ask that question.

29:30Yeah. Very interesting. So how difficult was it to get the school off the ground? You know, how did you convince our industry partners? It sounded like you were sort of pushing it at an open door. I mean, first we had to convince the Department of Education. Right. And we did that by, Tim and Eric had a huge film down at Pinewood. I think it was Mary, Queen of Scots. And we bussed down about 30 to 40 people from the Department of Education to show them how many jobs it actually takes to make a film. Because up until then, I think they thought we were a bit sort of wishy-washy. It was quite interesting.

30:15Yes, they wanted to do something where 16 to 19-year-olds were learning more skills so they could go and get a job and put food on their plate, but they didn't really understand the film and TV industry. And that was a game changer. We took them down, we showed them the 180 jobs, they went around all the different departments, they saw what the accounts department was doing, what the art department was doing, what the post-production department was doing. And after that they gave us what we needed to build the school and put in big studios and everything that you saw when you came and visited.

30:57And then it was really a question of finding the right people to open the school. And that's where we were very, very lucky to come across Charlie. Because we were told to open the school we had to be part of a multi-academy trust. it couldn't just be the London Screen Academy so I went off to I was told about Elam, Charlie's school went off to the East End to have a look at the school met Charlie they need to be part of a trust and very quickly we came together as two schools and that's when we really started to take off because then we had the expertise of the founders to do with the industry We had Charlie to run the school and to take care of the education, the curriculum.

31:48And then I think because our co-founders are David Heyman, Harry Potter, now Bond, Barbara Broccoli, was Bond, Tim and Eric at Working Title who do every single film under the sun. because they're putting billions back into the film industry day in, day out. When we went to Netflix, to Disney, to Warner Brothers, to Universal, it was sort of a no-brainer because we were saying to them, listen, we are the film industry and we need to make sure that these incredible jobs are open to everyone. And that means kids from very tough backgrounds with no infrastructure who wouldn't in a million years, they go and they watch a film and they think, oh my God, I would love to be part of this industry, but they would have no idea how to.

32:43And they absolutely embraced us straight away and said, these big companies, we will back you. So it's a real public private sector collaboration. Absolutely, yeah. 100%. A good example of that. But it's interesting it began with you taking some people from the Department of Education to see how a film's made. That was a game changer. Seeing is believing. Yeah, you have to show people. There's nothing like, like I was, I really wanted you to come down to LSA because I knew if you came down and you saw what we were doing and you saw the scope of the building, you would understand. Whereas if I said, oh, James, yes, I've been involved in opening the school and we do a bit of hair, you know, you can't, you've got to see it.

33:28And when they came down to Pinewood, they were blown away. So my impression for people visiting was there was a huge energy around the place. And people were really engaged with the wide variety of tasks and things that they were doing. At the time, it felt like a really great place to be. We have 900 students, teenagers, running around this building. And as Charlie will say, you could hear a pin drop sometimes. when they're in class they're in class i mean when they're not and they're running around and getting to the cafe i mean you can really hear them and it's fantastic because they're all learning and and doing so it's been open six years now thereabouts you said around to it how are you getting on i mean what's happened to the people who've gone through and how's it working for the students i suppose is it delivering what's on the tin yeah yeah yeah hopefully yeah so there's a few different ways of looking at it so it is a school so it's ofsted outstanding in all categories so just that metric is important fundamentally for us like i want it well done i want young people to know they're coming to i mean that's not an easy thing to achieve it isn't no and it's a it's a lovely report to read uh and then in terms of like outcomes and the qualification they do they significantly outperform the national as they should based on the resources we have but they do very very well uh we make them all do math and english in addition to film as well and then kind Then the most important thing is the alumni.