In short
Forest Bikes’ scaling in London—when to hire/raise/expand, how to win borough tenders, and how regulation/behavior change matter as much as technology.
Key claims
Forest launched to fill a gap for sustainable, affordable shared e-bikes (10 minutes free daily, later 30 minutes for £1) and now uses incentives to rebalance bikes via the app. It operates with “zero emission operations” and offsets scope 3 emissions; it’s a B Corp. Scaling depends on patchwork borough regulation, with fines managed via a “three strike” process, and a hoped-for London-wide TfL framework to standardize parking rules.
Notable examples
winning the Camden tender displaced competitors; users can see available free minutes on bikes; proactive maintenance gives each bike a touchpoint every 24 hours; utilization targets ~10 trips per bike per day.
Guests
Caroline Seaton, co-founder of Forest (policy/legal background; previously in London; founded Forest in 2019 with CEO Augustine and others).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Vision Behind Forest
1:38 to 2:27
Caroline discusses the motivation behind starting Forest and addressing market gaps.
Innovative Pricing Models
2:27 to 3:53
Discussion on Forest's pricing strategy, including free minutes and bundles.
“And so we wanted to make that accessible for people, but in the sustainable way.”
Sustainability as a Differentiator
3:53 to 6:32
Caroline explains how sustainability shapes Forest's operations and user appeal.
“So if there's a bike or an area is oversaturated, we can allocate different numbers of free minutes, and those are visible in the app.”
Navigating Competitive Landscape
6:32 to 7:42
Insights on competition in the e-bike market and Forest's unique advantages.
“So that means we use entirely electric fleet.”
Challenges of Operating in London
7:42 to 11:39
Caroline shares the regulatory challenges faced by micromobility operators in London.
“So they want to make the most of that, you know, the minutes that they've sort of pre-purchased.”
Building Local Partnerships
11:39 to 13:03
Exploration of how Forest partners with local authorities to enhance service.
“I mean, we've been sort of advocating for this for some time now, you know, for the reasons I've mentioned, but it just has to run its process.”
Logistics and Operations Management
13:03 to 14:00
Discussion on the operational complexities and management strategies at Forest.
“Well, you're different to some of the other providers in that you are London-focused, isn't that right?”
Operations and Maintenance at Forest Bikes
14:00 to 17:38
Learn about the logistics and maintenance strategies employed at Forest Bikes.
“Well, we have an absolutely phenomenal COO.”
Team Structure and Responsibilities
17:39 to 19:34
Discover how Forest Bikes' team structure evolved as the company grew.
“Yeah, that's actually been quite interesting and like really exciting, you know, how it's evolved.”
Challenges in Hiring and Legal Issues
19:35 to 21:06
Understand the challenges of hiring and the legal complexities faced by Forest Bikes.
“For example, we had the finance and the HR section, you know, departments together.”
Show all 28 chapters
Defining Moments in the Business Journey
21:07 to 22:49
Hear about pivotal moments in Forest Bikes' journey and their significance.
“Did you think, yeah, this is actually working?”
Commitment to Sustainability
22:50 to 23:37
Learn why sustainability is integral to Forest Bikes' strategy.
“We have, as I mentioned, lots of users in London.”
Focus on E-Bikes Over Scooters
23:38 to 24:30
Explore Forest Bikes' decision to focus on e-bikes rather than scooters.
Utilization Rates and Seasonal Trends
24:31 to 26:20
Get insights into how seasonal changes affect bike usage and business performance.
“Well, our founding principles was about the whole idea of human forest, which I know you mentioned, was that in essence, our riders are like a human forest in that we're avoiding CO2.”
Future of Transportation in London
26:21 to 28:00
Discuss potential future trends in London's transportation landscape.
“There's such a limited amount of it that we need to prioritise the modes that are being used.”
The Evolution of Bike Sharing in London
28:00 to 30:24
Learn about the changing trends in bike sharing and urban transportation in London.
“Yeah, I mean, we would, you know, we'd love that.”
Fundraising Insights from Forest Bikes
30:24 to 31:38
Discover the strategies behind raising a successful Series B funding round.
“You've just raised another round of finance on Series B.”
Impact of the Lime IPO on Micromobility
31:38 to 32:54
Explore how the Lime IPO has transformed perceptions of micromobility in the industry.
“And it showed that, you know, we had a bit of a time where – How much was it floated for?”
Expanding Forest's Reach in London
32:54 to 34:25
Understand the growth strategy of Forest Bikes and its focus on London boroughs.
“So it did just sort of, you know, and I think on the back of that, you'll have other sort of, you know, other micro-mobility companies being able to raise more.”
Challenges in the Micromobility Sector
34:25 to 36:20
Examine the challenges faced by micromobility companies, including regulation and user behavior.
“So what have been some of the sort of tricky challenges you've had or pushbacks you've had as a micromobility company?”
Making London the Best Cycling City
36:20 to 38:22
Learn what needs to happen for London to enhance its cycling infrastructure.
“And then, you know, it's more cycling infrastructure.”
Building a Strong Company Culture
38:22 to 40:45
Discover the key elements of team building and company culture at Forest Bikes.
“Thinking about leadership and entrepreneurship now, towards the end of the conversation, what have you learned about building teams in your business during this period of rapid growth?”
Lessons Learned from Forest's Growth
40:45 to 42:00
Reflect on the crucial lessons learned from past mistakes in business decisions.
“I've been thinking about this question a lot lately and I actually, it's sort of you're learning from your mistakes all the time and you don't want to regret them in a way because you learn from them.”
Sticking to Founding Principles
42:00 to 43:36
Learn the importance of maintaining core values in business amidst challenges.
“It was prohibitively expensive to insure people like you and I riding on them.”
Persistence in Changing Consumer Behavior
43:36 to 45:26
Discover strategies for entrepreneurs to change consumer habits effectively.
“And also especially as a founder, you get a lot of unsolicited advice.”
Identifying Market Opportunities
45:26 to 47:58
Explore how to spot and seize market gaps for successful business ventures.
“This is all part of the mayor's local transport plan.”
Vision and Teamwork in Entrepreneurship
47:58 to 49:20
Understand the role of visionary leadership and teamwork in business success.
“You sort of go somewhere and think, why don't they do this?”
Looking Forward: Future Aspirations
49:20 to 51:29
Reflect on future goals and aspirations for a growing business in London.
“Talking to you today, so thank you very much.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
0:28What does it take to change the way an entire city moves? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Caroline Seaton, co-founder of Forest, one of London's fastest growing shared e-bike companies. In this episode, we discuss building a business in one of the world's most competitive mobility markets, scaling sustainably, and why the future of transport depends as much on regulation and behavior change as it does on technology.
1:00today on all about business i'm really delighted to welcome caroline seaton to the studio caroline is the co-founder of forest a london-based e-bike company focused on sustainable urban mobility and you founded the company with others in 2019 i believe caroline um as human forest and it was rebranded as Forest. The company has grown to become one of the city's largest and fastest growing e-bike operators with more than two million rides a month across 19 boroughs in London. So welcome Caroline this morning, it's really good to see you. Why did you start Forest? What was on your mind?
1:41Caroline Seton:It's a great question. So within the e-bike market in London at the time there was Santander and there were a few other private operators and what we thought there was a gap in the market for something that was sustainable and accessible so in that sense you know affordable and so we founded the business with 10 minutes free daily and that was enabling people to sort of try cycling for the first time or try e-bikes shared e-bikes for the first time without that kind of cost barrier and since then I mean we've grown to 1.8 million users across London and so So it's been a phenomenal kind of journey from something that we just, you know, and you would have seen the fabric of London change or the visuals of London change and how people are getting around.
2:27Caroline Seton:And bikes are often the quickest way. And so we wanted to make that accessible for people, but in the sustainable way. So we felt like there was a gap in the market than, you know, what was currently being offered. So where was it that your first bikes hit the road? Yeah, well, that was a really exciting moment for us. I mean, us as founders actually took the bikes off the trucks and put them all around Islington. So it was Islington first. We were in Islington and Camden to begin with. And your sort of pitch to the rider or the user was this 10 minutes free. That was a differentiator for you.
3:04Yeah. And that's still the case, that's right?
3:05Caroline Seton:That has evolved. So when we first started, we would use the 10 minutes free in order to sort of grow cycling, in order to get people to adopt it and to give it a go. So now we've moved to 30 minutes for one pound, which is an offer that people can take up on certain bikes. And so we're using it now as a tool for fleet management. As you'll see, there's so many bikes around London. So we can use that tool to take, if there's excess number of bikes within one parking bay or one area, we can allocate different amounts of free minutes to those bikes to incentivise users to move them. To get them to move them for you.
3:41Caroline Seton:Yeah, exactly. And we obviously, we have hundreds of people in our operations team, and we call them guardians, moving around London. But the quickest way is to get the users to do the work. So if there's a bike or an area is oversaturated, we can allocate different numbers of free minutes, and those are visible in the app. So the user can see on that app. Yeah, the user can see. And a lot of our users are actually, you know, they're price sensitive. and so seeing that 30 minutes or 15 minutes free or available on the bike, you know, does lead them to hire it. So what would be the average sort of payment per ride?
4:18Caroline Seton:Yeah, I mean, that is something that we, you know, can't necessarily... Keep that a secret. Yeah, but I mean, a lot, what I will say is that we've really noticed a massive shift and this is kind of symptomatic of people integrating bikes here into their commute and their sort of their habits is that we've gone from the sort of pay-as-you-go user to the bundled user, so more of a subscription-based. So over half our trips are done via a bundle. So what sort of bundles are available to people? So a bundle, we can do a 24-hour bundle. You can do minute bundles. And so for 24 hours, it's£10. So you pay that up front, and you've got that much usage until it runs out.
5:00Yeah, exactly. Until you've used it for 24 hours, I suppose.
5:02Caroline Seton:Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so that means we've just got different offers for different use cases. And what's the minute usage? How does that work? So the minute is 33 MP per minute. 33 per minute. And we also have the unlock fee. Right. And how much is that? One pound. Right. But you said it's price sensitive, so it's interesting. Yeah, users are price sensitive, but they can take the offer that suits them best for their needs. So if you're a tourist coming to London, you might take that 24-hour because you're planning to do multiple trips in a day. And that gives you the freedom and the flexibility to just pick up and drop off.
5:41There's a lot of competition, though, isn't there? I mean, you weren't first to market, as you said.
5:45Caroline Seton:Yeah, no, we weren't. And as you grew, it must have been very competitive. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we first launched, as I mentioned, there was Santander, Lime, Dot and Tear. a huge sort of defining moment for us was when we won the Camden tender alongside Lyme and that displaced Dot and Tear and I think from a borough perspective and they were quite commoditized offers in the sense of you know the other three operators that I just mentioned they were kind of offering the same thing and they all looked different with different bikes but Forest offered something different and that's sort of where we thought that there was space in the market and that sort of edge.
6:24So could you really explain what that difference is?
6:27Caroline Seton:So that was the sustainability angle. So Forrest was founded with zero emission operations. So that means we use entirely electric fleet. So you're already net zero? We're already, yeah. So that was right from the beginning. And then we also offset any of our scope three emissions, which is like the transport of the bike or the freight incurred with the bikes. Right. But we use seafreight and things like that to try and minimise. And so that was a, when we look at why our users choose Forrest, there's sort of three main reasons. It's, you know, the sustainability, it's the affordability, but it's also the availability.
7:05Caroline Seton:So I think what we're really noticing, particularly as a new entrance in the market, what users continue to look for is the operator that has, you know, enough bikes to know that you can reliably walk out of your, you know, your office or your home. or a restaurant and get that bike that you have the app for. Well, probably people use several. Yeah. I mean, they're not going to be exclusive to you typically, are they? Well, I think users have their favorite. Right. So look for you first. Yeah. And then, you know, perhaps because they bought the bundle with, you know, with a certain app operator.
7:42Caroline Seton:So they want to make the most of that, you know, the minutes that they've sort of pre-purchased. So I think the people have their favorite. and then if their favourite's not available, they'll look to the second or third operator. How much was that 24-hour bundle? Basically£10, yeah. That seems very reasonable. Have you tried a… I'm going to. I'm going to get a bundle. I ride a Vespa. Ah, nice. Okay. I get overtaken by people on your bike and they don't have number plates. They can beat the 20-mile-an-hour limit, sometimes downhill, I think. They probably aren't encouraged to do that. No, no. No, no, no.
8:20So you have to, as I understand it, win borough by borough.
8:26Caroline Seton:Yeah. The contract to deliver this service. Is that right? This has to be the biggest challenge for operating in London right now. And that's the patchwork regulation. So across every borough, we go borough by borough, as you say, to agree either a procurement process or an MOU, which is called a memorandum of understanding. They're not as legally enforceable, but this can be quicker for the borough to run in order to procure the services. But it does mean, and in the most extreme examples, you know, in the early days, you would have one borough where it was free-floating parking. So you could, you know, as long as you parked responsibly, you could park, you know, in theory, wherever you wanted.
9:12Caroline Seton:And then in the neighboring borough, it's, you know, a mandatory parking bay model. And that's really tricky for users because they don't know when they've crossed the borough boundary. And what happens when they get that wrong? Well, they get a fine. not immediately we operate a three strike process because we don't want to create inertia around if a user does it the first time and they're just trying their bike and they don't understand how it works but the TFL regulation which we hope will come into force in 12 to 18 months TFL, Transport for London Transport for London Well they're looking at the whole city now Yeah, so there's been a recent legislation come in the English Devolution Bill, which has allowed local authorities the power to regulate micromobility as one of those things within London.
10:06Caroline Seton:So TFL is part of that, has that power. So we are hoping for a more seamless approach to London, and that will be better for the user and better for the city in that we can standardise a lot of the sort of inconsistencies that can create confusion and also don't lead to the best outcomes in the sense that people don't know where they should. No, fair enough. It's complicated. It makes sense. Yeah, it's complicated. How many boroughs are there in London? Well, there's 33 boroughs. 33. We're in 20. So we have the biggest service area of any operator in London. So I said 19. So you're now in 20. Yeah, hot off the press.
10:41You've obviously added one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. Hot off the press. Which was the most recent?
10:46Caroline Seton:So the most recent is Ealing. Ealing. Big borough. Yeah, big borough. Right, yeah. So that's been really exciting for us. We've won all the tenders that we've participated in this year. Right. So we're feeling like there's really strong momentum as we sort of build that service area because the main thing about London is really that connectivity. You need to go with an operator that you know you can get where you want to go. And I think that's the problem with sort of new operators coming in is that they're in, say, eight boroughs or nine boroughs. Yes. And for a user, as I just said, you don't know if you've crossed the bar of boundary, you don't know where you're meant to be.
11:26Caroline Seton:So that TFL tender, which standardizes and eliminates that patchwork, will be brilliant. Yeah. And when will that happen? The jury's sort of – we're waiting. Hopefully the next year or two. Hopefully the next year or two. I mean, we've been sort of advocating for this for some time now, you know, for the reasons I've mentioned, but it just has to run its process. So you have to sell two ways really, don't you? You have to get the London boroughs to sort of sign you up and give you a green light and you have to get the riding public to choose you over other competing offers. Yeah. And they're quite different in a way, those marketing efforts.
12:05Caroline Seton:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're completely right. I mean, the users, as I mentioned, they sort of focus like sustainability, availability and price. yeah and what are the what are the local authorities i mean they are you know and it actually varies some some boroughs are really motivated by value for their users in terms of the pricing uh but for others it's more around parking you know what are the technology that you have in place or it may even come down to things like what insurance you have in place so there's really like competing priorities against across all the boroughs and and i guess that's why you end up with some operators in one and not in the other because at this point, I think we've been able to, we've been in London for so long now, we understand the needs of the individual boroughs and the needs of the users.
12:58Caroline Seton:So we've been able to create an offer that we think best serves everybody. Well, you're different to some of the other providers in that you are London-focused, isn't that right? Yeah, so we're just in London. So, you know, all our investment, you know, is designed for London. So, you know, when we invest in the technology, when we upgrade the app, this is with London in mind. So we can deliver the best solution, you know, for all those stakeholders because we're not thinking about stakeholders when we design the tech in other cities with other nuances. It's very much London. So you're a British company focused on London.
13:33Caroline Seton:Yeah, we're a British business. the founders you know and the management team live work and breathe forest i think we should get behind forest on that yeah definitely i mean we should i'll be picking you first so so what you've described to me you know i run a business um sounds operationally pretty complicated yeah it is it must be i mean sort of you've got so many moving parts literally Literally. Literally. How do you get your head around that? How do you manage that? Well, we have an absolutely phenomenal COO. He's ex-SIPCAR. He's ex-military. He runs. So he's a logistics. He's a logistics pro.
14:15Caroline Seton:And he runs that as a really tight ship. But there's that. And then there's also the tech. So as I just mentioned, we've also built an operations platform. We call it Forest Fleet. It's all built in the house, and it's designed to optimize and deliver the best results. So what do you do when one of your bikes gets chucked in the Regent's Canal? Oh, I know, I know. I mean, that fortunately doesn't happen too much now. I'm not encouraging this bike. I have seen them in the river. Yeah, no, we get it out. But, I mean, we run a proactive maintenance program. So each bike is kind of – there's a touch point on each bike every 24 hours.
14:57Caroline Seton:and that might be a guardian, it might be someone checking it. Every 24 hours, someone's checking it. Yeah, well, because they use so much, and it's a combination of, you know, they're either being tidied, they're either batteries being swapped, or we also sort of do proactive maintenance. So how many people do you have doing that? Over 200. So you're a big employer. How many people do you have in the business? Well, there's 300, yeah. And 200 of those are guardians? Yeah, guardians. Looking after the bike. Or maintenance, yeah. So every bike gets a touch point every 24 hours. 24 hours. So is that at night that people are doing this?
15:30Caroline Seton:So it's like a combination, really. I mean, in some residential areas, we won't operate at night. So again, it's like three-layered approach to the operations. Because wait people out. Yeah, exactly. So you kind of have to be, you have to design your ops plan for the environment. It is like the military, 24-7. Yeah. No, it totally is. But they'll be, you know, so we do this proactive maintenance. And then every year, a bike will go back to the warehouse and have like the full conditioning. Right. And that kind of goes back to our sustainability point is that we've been able to extend the life of our bikes beyond the five years.
16:04Caroline Seton:And we're looking now to get the bikes to sort of seven, eight years. But they still, you won't know the difference between if you're riding on a five-year-old bike or a new bike. But when you get on an airplane, they can be quite old, can't they? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we have such a proactive approach to maintenance, like way beyond the manufacturer's recommendations because we have this long-term view. and we don't want to be, you know, our answer. Are all the bikes sourced from the same place? Yeah, they are. Who manufactures them? It's a manufacturer called Okai. Right. Where are they based?
16:36Caroline Seton:They're in Taiwan. Taiwan. In China as well. But we also input into the bike. So we have a partnership with Okai where we are really helping to fine tune, you know, develop. So you go and visit the bike? Yeah. And I hate to say this, they won't like this, but I think we know the bike just as well, if not better than they do. They probably do. Yeah. They should ask you lots of questions. Yeah, I mean, because there's been various iterations. You probably own more of them than anyone else. Yeah, no, and there's been various iterations. And so our R &D team is always feeding in developments. So how many bikes have you got?
17:17Caroline Seton:Around 30 ,000. 30 ,000 on the road, touched every day. Yeah, yeah. So that's an amazing logistical operation. Yeah. So you hired a COO with a sort of logistics military background. How do you divide up your responsibilities with your co-founders? Who does what? Yeah, that's actually been quite interesting and like really exciting, you know, how it's evolved. So when we first started, it was Augustine, who's the CEO, and he's ex-Capify. So he has a huge amount of experience in micro mobility. We also, Mike Stewart, who has, you know, is a major marketing sort of consumer head. And then myself, who was very involved in like the policy and the legal side.
18:06Caroline Seton:So I think when you, when you first start, you sort of divide and conquer and you pick up the areas that you have some experience and naturally in a startup, you have to pick up areas that you're, you know, you're going to learn on the job a bit, you know, so around, you know, the comms or, you know, something like that. You know, naturally you can't hire. There's not the luxury of hiring for every role. But now that we've got so much bigger, it feels like a real treat, you know, to have, you know, we have a head of comms, we have a head of policy, you know, a head of legal. We have all, everyone can specialise now.
18:41Caroline Seton:And that's been really wonderful to see and, you know, to build the team. So as you grew, you know, from those early days in Islington, what did you find the biggest challenge was? Yeah, the biggest challenge is really knowing the right time to increase the team. So we were always really fiscally responsible. I think this is, and raising only when we need to. So we wanted to sort of make sure that we didn't make any expensive mistakes. Because people are expensive. Yeah, exactly. And you want to make sure that you hire the right people for the long term. So we're always running a lean team. and then the challenge is knowing when is the right time to hire.
19:24Caroline Seton:And we always kind of, you know, we definitely waited until. Looking back, do you think you were too slow or too fast doing hiring? I think in some places, you know, we were probably a little bit too slow. For example, we had the finance and the HR section, you know, departments together. So we had a head of finance and HR. I mean, I think he was, you know. So you now have that split. We now have that split, and that makes a lot more sense. I think we should have done that earlier. Right. But, you know, that's difficult when you're just starting out. Yeah, you're just starting out. And also it takes time to hire people as well.
20:00Caroline Seton:So, you know, when you're really head down, you've got so much to do both in finance and HR, the thought of hiring somebody is just, you know, throwing a whole other work stream into the mix so you just carry on. And we've also got a wonderful head of legal now too. So perhaps those hires could have come a bit sooner. So you said head of legal, and you mentioned legal a few times. What are the legal issues you have to contend with? Well, it's all negotiating all the borough licenses. It's nonstop, all the leasing, the buildings that we lease, all the different contracts that we have with the rental companies.
20:37Caroline Seton:We sometimes use contracted labor when we need to manage peaks. So you have a lot of legal requirements. Yeah, like a heat wave or, you know, the tube strike. At that point, sometimes we get, you know, we get extra people in. So it just seems to be always stuff to do. We also have the ad model, you know, the ad business. Right. Where we're selling both digital ads within the app and also the physical ads. So we've got that Omni Media channel. So, you know, the legal also is involved in that. So there's loads of things. So at what point on this journey, forgive the pun. I know. On this journey.
21:12Caroline Seton:On this trip. Did you think, yeah, this is actually working? I mean, was there a moment when you thought this is going? I have to say, and I mentioned it before, quite a defining moment when we did win Camden. Yes. And it was shortly after that that Dot and Tear actually both left London. Oh, so these rivals departed. Yeah, and we thought, oh, you know, this is. They encouraged you. Yeah, we were, I mean, so that was amazing. and now, you know, with these recent tenders as well. Because I think often, like, you don't celebrate the wins as much as you should. You know, you think, oh, that was a relief, and then you move on to the next thing.
21:54Caroline Seton:But then also just as more of like a fun, you know, we obviously have a big dashboard in the office which shows how many bikes are hired at one point. And when we passed 1 ,000 bikes for the first time, we were all ringing the bell, and that was really exciting. How long ago was that? That would have been, you know, maybe four and a half, five years ago now. But we still remember it, you know, so well when you think, oh my gosh. And you can, you know, we get pretty excited by all the data that we can see around the different bikes and where they're going. So you've mentioned sustainability as your key or one of your key messages.
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22:32I mean, some mobility companies, it seems, have expanded very rapidly and then not sort of succeeded.
22:38Caroline Seton:Been retrenched, yeah. Does sustainability also apply in terms of your business strategy being sustainable as well as? Absolutely, yeah. So we're a B Corp. We were verified a number of years ago. And that's really important to us. Why is it important? Because we're a community business. We have, as I mentioned, lots of users in London. We have a huge workforce. and we you know so giving back to the to the community making sure our employees have good career development that is really important for us um and so that's where where the b court comes in but you set out very early on to be a b court yes yeah yeah yeah that was a number of years ago now um because we think you know people profit and planet look what you know we're trying to clean the air in london or decarbonize transport so that was really important but this from the sustainability point of view the financial sustainability is really important so that's been responsible in the sense of we don't, if a seat is ripped like if there's a, like on the leather is ripped we don't replace the whole seat we just fix the leather and it's those kind of things that we've got our head in cost savings and in a way that we're thinking about this business for the long term we don't want those seats to end up in landfill there's no need you know it actually works out more cost effective to fix it but you need the team and the how do you fix a leather seat with a rip in it you literally just sew it back together yeah yeah so someone who's sewing up seats yep right so that you've got quite a lot of artisans yeah yeah yeah that's very interesting and you only operate e-bikes is that right yeah we're just You haven't gone into scooters?
24:30Caroline Seton:No, scooters. Why not? Well, our founding principles was about the whole idea of human forest, which I know you mentioned, was that in essence, our riders are like a human forest in that we're avoiding CO2. Right. And so we felt that scooters wasn't replacing car trips in the way that bikes could. Could you explain why not? Because they don't. I mean, the research shows that they are more likely to replace walking than car trips. Scooters, you don't go the same distance. And we also have... Oh, I see. I had no idea. Yeah. That's what you meant. Yes. So, yeah. Sorry. So a bike replaces a car trip, but a scooter replaces a walk.
25:12Caroline Seton:Yes. I mean... Typically. Typically. I mean, that's what sort of where we sit on it. Obviously, not everybody would agree. So you think people should walk, ideally for their own business? Yeah, exactly. Like we're all for. Scooters get in the way of the road as well. Yeah, the utilization rate on scooters is much lower than bikes. So for example, in some boroughs, you know, over this last week, we'll be seeing 10 trips per bike per day. Whereas on the scooters, I mean, I don't know what the figures are for this last week, but typically it's 1.5, two trips per scooter per day. So that's obviously a key measure, the utilization of the bike.
25:54Caroline Seton:The utilisation rate is absolutely key for us. So that's what, and we think - 10 trips per bike. Yeah, that's what - And that's high, is it? It's high, yeah. Yeah, summer weather and so on. Summer weather, I mean, and some days it's been 12. I mean, which is just - So is that a peak for you? Yeah, it's been incredible. So your business is good. Business is good. So it must be quite seasonal in that sense. People are going to be on their bikes more in the summer. Yeah, I mean, they drop, it drops about 30%. It's not, you don't, it doesn't fall off a cliff. like I actually you know would have thought you were worried about that way yeah you think oh my gosh but actually through the winter because it's relatively dry and you know that that rain isn't prohibitive for cycling that we get in January February time um so it's yeah it's about 30 % off its peak although more than 30 % off this you know yeah this peak in the in the last week but I think just back to the what we're really thinking about in this like broader discussion around you what's London going to look like from a transport perspective over the next five, ten years?
26:56Caroline Seton:There's a bit of a recalibration in the sense that two million trips are done a day on bikes in London now, and we're really wanting to push that we need to think about how we allocate space, because space is finite in London. There's such a limited amount of it that we need to prioritise the modes that are being used. So for us, we look at a car parking space, and this car could stay stationary for one, two, three days. And at the moment, based on those numbers that I just mentioned to you, that could be between 80 and 100 trips facilitated from one car parking space where a car's just sat there.
27:36Caroline Seton:So it's really what we want to try and do, the next, we'd ideally have liked it to be done yesterday, but is convert more car parking spaces, particularly in central London to bike share. So what, I mean, what in your vision does London look like in five or ten years time? I mean, is it just masses of bikes? Is that what you'll see? Yeah, I mean, we would, you know, we'd love that. I bet you'd love that. I mean, I don't know if it's going to look like that, but incremental. I can imagine that's popular with some people, yeah. Incrementally. It might not be popular with others. No, I know. Is that the problem you have?
28:15Yeah. There's quite a lot of politics around this, isn't it?
28:16Caroline Seton:Yeah, there is, but it's obviously going to be incremental and we can slowly start because bike share is used by a lot of Gen Zs. And, you know, we have a whole cohort, but we're seeing declining, you know, driver's license applications with Gen Zs. So they're not bothering to? No, they're not. And so as those dynamics change, as the Gen Zs move through the ranks, there's going to be less demand on car. Private ownership is falling as it becomes more expensive, particularly. Is that just true in London? I'm talking about London, yeah. Central London. Central London's different to the rest of the country.
28:59Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely.
29:00Caroline Seton:And I'm talking about London here, but, and also, you know, a lot of the measures that, you know, the mayor has put into place really effectively to, to prioritize active travel and clean air, you know, the ULES, for example. Yes. So with those kind of, as those measures are implemented, you know, the allocation of, you know, public space needs to change to reflect that. Yes. And then we can sort of, you know, because obviously bike share has been tricky in the sense of it's completely, you know, swelled the usage and we have scenes of bikes, you know, overcrowded on an existing bays. And we can solve that by handing, you know, more car parking spaces over to bikes.
29:41So that's your principal ask, can we have more bays?
29:44Caroline Seton:Yeah, we need more bays. And I think that makes it, you know, ultimately it's better for the users. It's better for the non-users because we have a more orderly management of the bikes. And it makes the city function more smoothly. But it's obviously a difficult thing to do, that transition away from car parking spaces, which people seem to love. I suppose if they're used to parking outside their home, then it gets turned into a bike bay, they might be unhappy. That's a sort of localised thing, isn't it? It's a localised thing. I can see how the big picture is. Yeah, exactly. It's pushing in your direction.
30:23Caroline Seton:Yeah. So, yeah. You've just raised another round of finance on Series B. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Are you able to tell me a little bit about that or how that? Yeah, so we raised a Series B. It was a combination of debt and equity. That was a big milestone for us as a company. How much did you raise? So we raised$20 million. $20 million. Yeah. That's an impressive sum. debt and equity how was it split yeah around half half yeah right and were you very involved in that yourself yes i'm not so much on the debt side that's run by the finance but on the equity side yeah yeah and so what what messages would you give sort of entrepreneurs on how to go about raising a sum of money like that yeah any tips i know how do you go and get equity i mean i have I was going to say it's never – I mean, you obviously had to go and present to lots of people, did you?
31:17Caroline Seton:Yes, I mean, it's, yeah, a lot of talking. And what – yeah, a lot of talking. A lot of talking. What were they asking you? What were the sort of questions you were asking? I mean, you get asked a lot about, you know, the regulation. But I think the Lime IPO has been really good for the industry in general. Because I think we always – in the really early days of the industry – So when was that, the Lime IPO? That was last month. So very recently. This summer. Really recently, this summer. And it showed that, you know, we had a bit of a time where – How much was it floated for? It was 1.6 billion.
31:45So that's quite helpful for you.
31:47Caroline Seton:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And in the sense that... So Lime was valued at 1.6 billion. Yeah, and it listed on the NASDAQ. And the shares have continued to perform well post... But Lime operates in lots of cities, I guess. Yeah, they're in 230-odd cities. But what it did show is that institutional capital is backing micromobility. I think it had been... Micromobility is now a category, I guess. It's now a category. And I think in the very early days, six years ago, there were the likes of Offo and Mobike, and they kind of disappeared. And then there was a bit of M &A in the sector, like the dot and tier merger.
32:24Caroline Seton:But now, and it was sort of seen as these really capital-intensive businesses, how are you going to make any money? And people were a little bit scared of that. So you've got to buy a lot of bikes. Yeah, you've got to buy a lot of bikes. But now, with Align My PO, it really showed there's institutional backing for them. And it was a lot of infrastructure funds. which is showing the way that micro-mobility is now viewed, it's viewed as a part of the city. It's not just a novel way to get around. It's actually something that people rely upon. It's here to stay. Yeah, exactly. It's here to stay. So it did just sort of, you know, and I think on the back of that, you'll have other sort of, you know, other micro-mobility companies being able to raise more.
33:05So how does that affect your strategy, though? Are you still just going to focus on London? Yeah, we're very much just a London perspective. So your B fundraise was focused on London?
33:15Caroline Seton:London, yeah. And to develop the technology, to continue to do the technology, our app would always be investing. So you see London as a good market in its own right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So there's plenty of growth there, you think? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think it's sort of, you know, we're in 20 boroughs, there's 33 boroughs in London. There's a lot of... Yeah, I was going to ask, who do you envisage reaching next? So who's not riding that you think will be? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that. So people in boroughs you're not in, I suppose. Yeah, exactly. And all the boroughs, you know, when we first launched, I think the boroughs were sort of happy with the status quo that bikes are just going to operate as they always have.
33:58You know, bikes are such a part of British culture. But now it's gone from being bikes are sort of, you know,
34:05Caroline Seton:We've got kids learning to ride and the Lycra crew, to now it's very much just part of the transport mix. And so the boroughs in the last couple of years have all been approaching, saying we want to formalise our agreements with you and ensure that we have the service available to our residents. Yeah. So what have been some of the sort of tricky challenges you've had or pushbacks you've had as a micromobility company? I mean it has been you know in some cases it is a bit like Marmite yeah or you know well in what way as you say in New Zealand but um because the users love them and then the non-users you know in some cases fair enough you know are compromised by the way that some users leave them people are put all over the pavement yeah and so and we can understand that and as I said earlier the solution is more parking infrastructure yeah yeah but the the challenges have really been that patchwork of regulation.
35:04What about users having accidents? I mean, people who don't ride bikes very often and maybe don't have a helmet getting on one of your bikes. Is that a problem?
35:12Caroline Seton:It hasn't been a problem. And we have, you know, go slow mode and educational pieces. And what's go slow mode? Go slow mode is when you first start. You hire a bike for the first time. Oh, right. You're in go slow mode. For how long have you been going to? For your first ride. Do I get frustrated by that? Yeah, yeah. Too late. I didn't know that. Yeah, so that's just a way to get confident on it. Right. And then there's the education. How fast can you go and go slow-mo? So it's 10 miles per hour. That's still pretty good. Yeah, but it just kind of takes that. What's the top speed without it? 15.
35:46Okay.
35:47Caroline Seton:And then we also do refresher, educational. So it's capped at 15. Yeah, 15.5. Yeah. Right, right. Right. So it's the sort of dynamic between the user and the non-user that you have to be... And that's where we need to work. And we work really hard with local council. And now, obviously, the national framework coming into place to try and manage those challenges on a London level. Yeah. So what else needs to happen for London to become the best cycling city in the world? well the mayor i mean the mayor has you know the previous mayor and then under siddique khan have really made great progress in this cycle lanes is really important and a lot of the research cyclists love the man motorist not so much i know another another friction yeah it's interesting but cycle lanes you know a lot of research shows that you know the presence of cycle lanes increases cycling because people feel more confident and protected.
36:48Caroline Seton:And then, you know, it's more cycling infrastructure. Right. And it's also about connecting. Do we have a lot to do in London or is it nearly there in your view? No, I think we can always keep improving, keep improving. But the other aspect to that as well is integrating, you know, bike share at transport hubs. So making sure that, you know, when you get off the tube, there's a parking bay there that you can then integrate that. So it's like these multimodal journeys. And that improves. And is that happening? It certainly happened at my tube station. Yes, definitely. It's happening. But it just needs to keep happening.
37:23Caroline Seton:Yeah. Right. So there's a lot for London still to do. Yeah. I mean. How do you think we compare with other cities? Yeah. I mean, we were definitely lagging. But the progress. We were laggard, were we? We were laggard. Were we? So but who are you thinking? Other European capital. Yeah, who are you thinking of? So if you think of Paris, for example. Right. Paris is ahead of London in this. Yeah, they have been. I mean, the cycle lanes, their cycle lanes are honestly, they need to widen their cycle lanes now because they feel like bike highways. Right. So that's the next level. That's the next challenge.
37:57They were next level, yeah. So maybe you have just routes that just become cycle routes through cities. Yeah, and there's been a lot of… Has that happened in places? Yeah, it has.
38:04Caroline Seton:Well, sort of pedestrianisation or just the combo of cycling and pedestrian. Yeah. So there's a lot of change still to come, it seems. Definitely, definitely. But I mean, London has really accelerated in this over the last few years. No, it's noticeable as a citizen. Yeah, you would have noticed, yeah. Definitely, definitely. Thinking about leadership and entrepreneurship now, towards the end of the conversation, what have you learned about building teams in your business during this period of rapid growth? I mean, you've obviously gone from a handful of people, literally, to 300 plus. What have you learned, Caroline?
38:45Caroline Seton:I mean, our attention has been really strong and we're really proud of that. And our NPS score has been going up, particularly now with our new VP of HR, who's been kind of managing this more closely and able to track it. So when you say your score's gone up, what are you doing? In terms of, you know, would you recommend... You're talking about your net promoter score. When we do that within our employees. So, you know, and would they recommend Forrest as a place to work? Do they like working at Forrest? So what's the sort of score on that? Oh, gosh, I'm not actually sure off the top of my head, but I know it's improved.
39:19Caroline Seton:Yeah, and it's good. But also our retention's really strong. So across the leadership team and within management, everyone has been there for at least five years. So how would you describe the culture then? I mean, it's a work hard, play hard culture. We do a lot as a team together, you know, team socials. What do you do? We say happy Monday and, you know, our CEO really means it when he says happy Monday. Well, we say love Monday. Oh, yeah. And I mean it. Yeah, same thing. And it's like, yeah, we have great sort of socials down at the warehouse where everyone comes along. Where is your warehouse?
39:51Caroline Seton:So we have four warehouses, but our sort of main one and the one that we've had for a long time is in Southwick. Right. And that's kind of the heart of, that's the beating heart. So there are a lot of bikes there. A lot of heart, a lot of bikes. And that's the beating heart of Forrest down in Southwick. So that's where most people are based, is it? Well, it's where a lot of the operations team are based. And for a long time, you know, the sort of HQ was there as well. But then when the operations got too big, we needed to create more space for it. So where are your other where? So our other main one is in Merton.
40:22Caroline Seton:And that's absolutely enormous. And then our like sort of office HQ is in Morgate. Right. You mentioned four, though. Oh, yes. And there's two others. So around the city, smaller ones. so make sure that we can kind of have all the city covered and never be too far away from a bike that needs servicing. So looking back, is there anything you would have done differently if you were starting Forest today? I've been thinking about this question a lot lately and I actually, it's sort of you're learning from your mistakes all the time and you don't want to regret them in a way because you learn from them.
41:01Yes.
41:02Caroline Seton:So in terms of doing something differently, I mean, we probably wouldn't have launched the mopeds. That was definitely something that we didn't need to do. They were essentially like a Vespa. That's what I've got. So you had mopeds. We had mopeds. We had a small trial of mopeds. And I think our other two founders were from South America originally. They've spent a lot of time in Spain with Cabify. And we thought that perhaps the mopeds could be something that was... So you mentioned Capify. Capify. So Capify is sort of like Uber of South America and they're in Spain as well. So in their ride hailing and they also had micromobility.
41:44I see. So they saw a sort of potential overlap with that.
41:49Caroline Seton:Yeah. And I think they thought, you know, we can bring mopeds in the way that the use is prolific across Europe to London. So why do you think that didn't work? It didn't work mainly because of the, well, because of the insurance. It was prohibitively expensive to insure people like you and I riding on them. So we ended up just renting them to delivery riders and then slowly phasing that business line out. So that was definitely a mistake. And I think it goes back to when you are starting a business, you've got to remember what your founding principles are. What you're trying to do. And stick with it.
42:24Caroline Seton:And that's when we kind of deviate. That's a lesson you learned from that. Yeah, I know. And then that's, you know, we deviated with the mopeds and we shouldn't have. And I think that's also where this, you know, the scooters come in. You think, no, no, we're a bike company. We're a bike company first and foremost, and we've got to stick with that. And I think that's also really important, you know, when the political dialogue changes or cultural trends change. But you can't be everything to everybody. You need to stick with sort of your founding principles. And I think the moped. So you're going to stick with bikes.
42:53Caroline Seton:Stick with bikes makes you stay, you know, no matter what the, you know, political rhetoric is you know what are you thinking about when you when you mention political rhetoric well i think the sustain there's been a bit of a row back from sort of sustainability particularly across the pond you know sustainable oh i see yeah zero emissions yeah and i think perhaps that is like but you're going to hold on to that yeah and i think that's maybe been diluted a bit well there's a big audience that cares about that yeah and we care about that and i think you know you don't want to be governed by political cycles or anything like that you They come and go a bit.
43:27Caroline Seton:They come and go, yeah, and rather quickly over the last decade. That's very true. So being true to what you believe in. Yeah, true to your founding principles. And also especially as a founder, you get a lot of unsolicited advice. Yeah. And so sticking to what you know and why you set up the business. You get a lot of unsolicited advice. People say, why don't you do this? Particularly when it's bike share, you know. How do you evaluate that? because they might be good ideas. No, and of course. You've got to curate that, I suppose. Definitely, and you have to take a bit from all of it, of course.
44:01But I think if someone says, you know, do this or do that
44:05Caroline Seton:or, you know, why are you not doing that? You need to just, you know, bring it back to that core matrix of, you know, what is it that we're about here and does this feed into that? Is it helpful to our mission or not? Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like that purpose. That's a good way of doing it because you want to be open to ideas. and have a curious approach, but you don't necessarily want to try everything that's suggested. Yeah, and you have to be sort of steadfast in that because otherwise when the going does get tough, you think, oh, maybe I should do that. So what advice would you give to entrepreneurs trying to build businesses that genuinely change consumer behavior?
44:45Because yours is doing that.
44:47Caroline Seton:Yeah. When I go and get my Forrest 24-hour ticket, you're changing my behavior because I'll be riding a bike, not a Vesper. what advice would you give gosh I mean just keep going honestly it can be a hard slog keep pushing keep pushing I mean yeah because changing behaviour is not a trivial thing is it no no it's not when you're not selling ice cream to people who know they like ice cream necessarily yeah no you just have to keep pushing and you know have faith in what you're doing but just don't give up but where does that faith come from well I particularly with we can see now yeah in in London the uptake of bikes we know we know we need you know we have an issue with air pollution and cleaning the air we know um the health benefits from active travel we know the mental health you know mental health as well so I think in the face and we also have a lot of support I mean we've got support from local authorities we support from national government.
45:48Caroline Seton:This is all part of the mayor's local transport plan. So you don't want to have blind faith, but we know that there's so many factors pushing. It's the urbanization. There's a change in transport. There's a lot of tailwinds. So you don't need a bump in the road, of which, of course, there are going to be some. You know, knock you off your perch. Knock you off your bike. Bumps in the road. We don't like them, do we? Yeah, but they're going to happen, you know, and that's so, like, it always happens. But having that, you know, that faith, which is based on, you know, tailwinds and fundamentals. But you must have had that when you started out.
46:30I mean, you must have sensed that change coming. You had a vision that this is where we were headed.
46:35Caroline Seton:Yeah, there was a gap. It turned out to be effectively true. Yeah, absolutely. You were looking forward. Yeah, and you could look to other European capitals to see the rise of not just bikes, but bike share as well. So someone thinking, I'd quite like to start a business, can do the same now, can't they? Yeah, have a look. Look around what's happening elsewhere, what might come here. Yeah, exactly. Have a look around, see what are the trends or where's a gap in the market, where's a need that's going unserviced. and, you know, Bikeshire was definitely one of those. Bikeshire was emerging, but we felt like what was on offer was fairly commoditized, so offering something a little bit different.
47:15Because you're not from London, are you?
47:17Caroline Seton:No, not originally. You're from New Zealand, I think. Yeah, yeah. So you came here and you saw this opportunity. It was Augustine. So I was from a policy, you know, communications background. Right. And it was Augustine, the CEO I mentioned, with his Cabify background. He came from another country as well. He came from another country. So I'd been in London. Where had he been? He had been in South America, in Chile and in Madrid with Cabify. And he came to London to study a master's in data science. And he suddenly thought, oh my gosh, this is a huge opportunity in bike share. Like, I have to stay.
47:53But this is inspiring because so often people think, oh, there's an opportunity. Well, why don't we do this? And then they don't actually do it. But you actually did it. You sort of go somewhere and think, why don't they do this? You actually did it. I mean, that's fantastic.
48:05Caroline Seton:Yeah, it's taken, I mean, Augustine, the CEO, is the epitome of an entrepreneur, in my view. And we work well as a team. He's a complete visionary. He doesn't let things get him down. He pushes, pushes, pushes, and he sees the best in all situations, whether that's a learning, okay, well, we'll do this, or something happens for a reason. When it goes wrong, it's a learning. It's a learning. It's always a learning. So I've actually learned a lot from him too to be like, we can learn from this. Yeah. That's true. That's true. So how do you hope to take it forward from here? Well, we would love to see the regulation come in and obviously Forrest be successful in that London-wide procurement process and to really continue to create a business that is liked by users and non-users.
49:03Caroline Seton:and that we can sort of more seamlessly integrate into the transport mix and continue to see a rise in not just bike share, but biking more generally. Well, I wish you every continued success with that, Caroline. Thank you so much, James. Thank you very much for coming in to talk to me. I learned so much about micromobility, a word I didn't even know before this conversation. It's a really new word, yeah. Talking to you today, so thank you very much. I found that fascinating.
49:33I always finish with two questions Okay You've sort of alluded to one of them Because the first is What gets you up on a Monday morning? Because here at Reid We love Mondays So what Caroline gets you up on a Monday morning?
49:46Caroline Seton:Well we Yeah well as I said We call it happy Mondays See I love getting into work I love riding to work That feeling I've got three children So that feeling of walking out the door With your bag and your laptop And that ride of moving from that home life to work life is cathartic and exciting. I ride along the Thames and I think, what is this week going to hold? I think in a startup life, one week is kind of equivalent to a month, one day equivalent to a week. So I'm excited by the prospect of what the day holds really. And the days are super varied. I like that. A startup life has a different pace.
50:27Caroline Seton:Different cadence, yeah, it does. and also you come to work for the team and the ideas. Yeah, no, I love coming to work. It's honestly just… Oh, I believe you. I can see that in your face. And then the last question, and it's from my interview book, Why You, is where do you see yourself in five years' time? Here. Maybe chatting with you about post-Pan London Tinder. Okay. Yeah, no, still in London, like absolutely still in London. I hope to be still in London as well. Yeah, and hopefully, you know, more bikes, more boroughs and a parking bay on every street. I love the sound of that. Well, I wish you every success.
51:07Thanks very much for coming in.
51:08Caroline Seton:Yeah, thank you so much.
51:12Thank you, Caroline, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Forrest or Reid, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time.
From the publisher
When do you hire, when do you raise, and when is expansion actually the right move?
In this episode of All About Business, James sits down with Forest co-founder Caroline Seton to pull back the curtain on how a London startup scaled to over two million rides a month. From using smart pricing to make customers do the heavy lifting in logistics, to navigating 33 separate sets of local regulations, Caroline breaks down the raw operational tactics and tough strategic trade-offs required to build, survive, and scale an asset-heavy business.
Caroline gives a clear blueprint for turning operational headaches into profit drivers as they explore protecting margins through relentless asset care, knowing exactly when to double down, or kill an idea that isn't working.
Timestamps
01:38 Why Forest Started
10:32 Expanding Across London
15:09 Maintenance at Scale
21:38 Proof It Was Working
31:33 ULEZ and Space Reallocation
38:26 Making London Cycle Capital
44:50 Founder Advice and Tailwinds
Links
Follow Caroline Seton on LinkedIn
Find out more about Forest Bikes and their services HERE
Submit your application to Reed’s Entrepreneurs Fund for a chance to a £20,000 grant HERE
All About Business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more HERE
This podcast was co-produced by Reed Global and Flamingo Media. If you’d like to create a chart-topping podcast to elevate your brand, visit Flamingo-media.co.uk