Ben Branson: Founder of Seedlip

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0:59Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishkondorea. What you're about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM. However, the music has been cut due to rights issues.

1:12This is Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss on Jazz FM. In partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal.

1:25listening color welcome to jazz shapers with me elliot moss bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musician shaping jazz soul and blues my guest today i'm extremely pleased to say is ben branson founder of seed lip the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit and the founder of pollen projects a venture studio that have so far created season a range of cocktail pitters and silver a distillery and maturation lab making non-alcoholic spirits from trees and not just any old trees we'll find out which ones and ben's the founder also and importantly of neurodiversity charity, The Hidden 20%.

1:56While running his own design firm, focusing on the food and drink industry, Ben, who'd grown up on his family's farm, was inspired by a 17th century recipe book for alcoholic and non-alcoholic medicine and began experimenting with distilling his homegrown herbs. After ordering a non-alcoholic drink at a restaurant, as Ben says, a disgusting pink sugary cocktail, the dots started to join up and Ben wondered if he could create a superior option to help others disappointed with sweet, childish drinks. Launched in 2015, Ben took Seedlip from his kitchen to 35 countries in three and a half years and to a majority acquisition by Diageo, the world's biggest spirits company.

2:32Ben is also the founder of neurodiversity charity, The Hidden 20%, as I said, and hosts their award-winning and incredibly large and successful podcast, championing neurodiverse role models and aiming to help break the cycle of silence, shame, and stigma. It's great to have you here. Thanks so much, Elliot, for having me. You have always made stuff, haven't you? Yeah. I think if I think back to sort of childhood of, you know, growing up on a farm and therefore being outside a lot, kind of kicked out by, you know, mum, two other brothers, go make your own fun. And so I loved building a treehouse or a bow and arrow or a football goal or a ramp for a skateboard or, yeah, just like making things that are useful.

3:18I'm not an engineer. I'm not a kind of, you know, I'm definitely nowhere near a rocket scientist. But I do, I like figuring stuff out. and I think I like making things that help and I like spotting things that need changing maybe or improving. And that fun, that sense of play, does it go back as far as you can remember being alive? You always just wanted to do stuff like that. Or were there moments, you know, sometimes you think, and therapists apparently say this, I mean, I couldn't possibly comment, but you remember a lot from when you were the seven-year-old kid. Do you know what I mean? Is there a conscience?

3:59I remember the film made by a friend of mine, Nick Goldsmith, called Son of Rambo. And Son of Rambo was all about being out and about and stuff and those wonderful long summers. But it feels like to me, because you were on a farm, because you were in the outdoors, that was just your life from day one. Yeah, I think I'm increasingly aware now with children that I have with my daughters, you get to redo lots of things. and you know I've got to redo a bow and arrow for example or poo sticks or play in the woods or do leaf printing you know I've got to re I don't know rediscover all that stuff and do it again and I guess I'm trying to apply some of that naivety innocence and play into my work where it then doesn't feel like work, which is great.

4:56But also I think if I'd learned anything from Seedlip, I had no idea about the drinks industry. And actually, because I didn't. I was going to say, it's better, isn't it? Yeah. I've read, you know, people always use this big word, disruption. But actually, back in 2015, when you set Seedlip up, there were no decent non-alcoholic... There was nothing. Nothing. It was Bex Blue, launched in the 70s. There was O'Doul's, which was a non-alcoholic beer. Very old, tasted like cardboard in the US. And there may have been, you know, another non-alcoholic beer legacy kind of old brand. But there was nothing.

5:35There was nothing in menus, nothing on the shelves. There was maybe some schlur masquerading in a wine bottle. Yeah. But there was nothing. And so people thought I was a lunatic. And let's see, that we never sell a bottle. And what's the point? Why do you need non-alc? And in a nutshell, and then I want to come to your own, you as a human, and why you don't drink alcohol and all that. In a nutshell, what was the moment that precipitated the, do you know what, I want to make a non-alcoholic drink? Before we get into clever marketing stuff around exclusivity, and it's Selfridges and it's not your local supermarket and all that, what was it, if you can recall?

6:17I think common to everything that I've done work-wise and the brands, I guess, that we've created, none of them have been about business and none of them have been about the outcome of I know what I want to do. I want to put some liquid in a bottle and have my own brand and start a business. I think they've all been driven by a curiosity and a what if and an opportunity to try. And there's been a physical aspect to that of let's see what happens if I can I distill mint at home from my garden? Like, what do trees taste like? Like, can I try? Should I try this stuff? And so, yeah, it's that curiosity that definitely has been a feature throughout childhood.

7:07I think with Seedlip, I was either thinking that, you know, I was going to change the way the world drinks in some grandiose, oh my word, this is amazing, why can't everyone see what I can see kind of style, through to this is never going to sell a bottle and I shouldn't do this. And this is a rubbish idea and no one's going to buy it. Basically just a normal day in the life of Ben France. And we're going to come back to the dichotomy in there. but the business thing is real right you you obviously you are a curious guy and i want to i want to talk about neurodivergence in a bit you did have to get serious about what i would call formalizing the curiosity and structuring the creativity and all that how did you find that process of actually getting grown up without becoming boring well a couple of things firstly growing up everyone in my family worked for themselves people don't think of farmers as business owners or entrepreneurs but everybody around me worked themselves today both my brothers worked for himself my dad works for himself uncles etc so i was sort of grown up around that sort of entrepreneurship i guess so that's one important thing i think the second one was i I bought, I literally did buy the Business for Dummies book.

8:31Literally? Literally. Literally bought it. I love the honesty. Was it good? Evidently, it was pretty good. It was okay. I mean, I signed up with the wrong VAT code when I started Seedlip, but I was desperate to learn about every single aspect of the business. And I was really okay with the fact that I didn't know what a value chain was. I didn't know what an FSDU was. I didn't know all these industry jargons terms. I didn't know how to construct a P &L. I didn't know what a balance sheet did. But I learned. And I learned that I really love Excel. And I love numbers. And I love how numbers can speak stories and shape narratives.

9:14And so I do, I enjoy the business bit. I think it's the outcome, though, of I just want to make a big impact and I want to make a big change. And so when that's my driver in everything that I'm doing, the way, the vehicle in which I can do that, I guess, that I've chosen is having businesses and a charity. Yeah. They're just the vehicles. And on a business thing, you just said the thing behind it is the big impact. You know how when you're thinking logically about numbers and you say number tell stories and they absolutely do and it's fabulous when people realise, when you get it, you go, oh. But on the other side, and that feels good because intellectually you've understood, when you talk about impact and making an impact, what does that feel like in your head and your body?

10:01Because that's a different part. What's that about? It is a different part and, you know, I was on my own launching Seedlip and you fast forward 10 years, we celebrate our 10th birthday in November and you've got a category that's 25 billion dollars you've got thousands of brands you've got the world's biggest beer brand some of the world's biggest spirit brands with non-alcoholic versions and tasty too yeah you've got a global category that's still only two three percent of alcohol so the headroom's enormous and you've got people's habits and behaviors and drinking repertoire completely changing like and that's not all because of me obviously but being part of that feels great feels great but also i'm pretty consistently dissatisfied so it's not enough it's not good enough and how do you handle the dissatisfaction in your head i think it's really healthy to be cynical and unhappy and dissatisfied with the status quo.

11:11But does being unhappy about the status quo make you unhappy? No, I think it does a couple of things. I think it keeps my feet on the floor. And I don't remember all the nice things that people have said about any of my projects. I hold on to the guy that said seal it tastes like witches wee and we're going to hold that thought everyone needs to think about what witches wee looks like and what it smells like if you haven't thought about that think about it right now much more coming up from Ben Branson my business shape I couldn't resist I'm sorry he's back in a couple of minutes Jazz Shapers on Jazz FM in partnership with Mishkondorea it's business but it's personal you can hear all our former business shapes on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very program again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favorite podcast platform.

12:02My guest today is Ben Branson, founder of Seedlip, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit, and the founder of neurodiversity charity, The Hidden 20%. Before I talk about neurodiversity, which I want to, and sobriety, talk to me about the tattoos. Just describe a couple of them, because there's quite a few, even though I know you're mainly covered over there. Yeah, I got my first tattoo when I was 15. And why? It was embarrassingly a Chinese symbol that meant dangerous. Did you know that's what it meant? I did know that's what it meant, which is why it's even more embarrassing. Thankfully, that's covered up with another tattoo.

12:37I guess I've used tattoos to mark moments, and so it was a big moment when I got the seed lip crest tattooed on my arm because I was committing. It was a form of sort of commitment, right, I'm going to do this. I've got all my other projects I guess logos tattooed and then my children have played quite a big role in my tattoos of their doodles and their drawings um and their initials and their names and I just I don't really care to what other people kind of think about them they're they're for you they're for me and probably the the most recent one I got was uh isaac newton obviously did a whole load of amazing things um but he also one of the things that he did discover or create was the formula for calculating the speed of sound through liquid i have it tattooed on my neck and it's how we make silver our age non-alcoholic spirit And I have, very fortunately, a two-meter-high cutting apple tree from Isaac Newton's original famous apple tree.

13:53How did you get that? Because it's at my home. But how is it in your home? Because if you take a cutting, if you take a branch from an apple tree, not that I went up to Woolsthorpe Manor and took a branch. But if you take a branch, you can plant that branch or you can graft it onto another tree and grow a tree. So, yeah, tattoos are, I've got my kids drawing a snail at the moment because I'm increasingly interested in doing things slowly and things that take time. And in this world that kind of can't sit still and is constantly seems like it's speeding up. But yet, a challenge. Please. You say this, Ben Bradson, but you, I don't know where you say you have something or you exhibit the characteristics of your, if I understand ADHD.

14:48I am ADHD and autistic. You are ADHD and autistic. Yeah. You move, if anyone looked from the outside, and I am looking from the outside, I can't be in your brain. I'd be busy in there, probably. You're going at the speed of light. You're doing a lot of things. You've done a lot of things. You don't stop. And I'm assuming the voice is saying, no, no, you need to stop. But that harnessing, how have you learned over the years to harness the way that your brain works into this person I now see? Yeah, so I was diagnosed in 2022, autistic first and then ADHD second. And I had no idea what that meant.

15:22I had no idea. I had very limited beliefs on what autism is, was dyslexia, ADHD, that full kind of range of neurotypes. I really had no idea. And I guess I've learned in the last three years that a lot of society doesn't really have the right idea or the right information or an up-to-date understanding of neurodiversity. So I've gone through this sort of big learning curve, I guess, of my immediate reaction or understanding that I was autistic was, well, I now need to know everything about autism. and I now need to harness and recognize the good bits of my brain, like having a photographic memory, actually that's really helpful, or the sensory side or the social side or the things that I struggle with.

16:16And your palate apparently is incredible. Yeah, my hearing and my nose, I kind of lost my sense of smell for about six to nine months when I was in my early 20s from a fall. and when it came back my god it was it was it was incredible and so seedlit was all developed via smell memories and my nose and silver you know i'm playing around and working with wood there's a huge sensory aspect to that as well so yeah i feel like i'm built for what i'm doing which is good and i feel like i'm trying to learn how my brain works to kind of harness that but being autistic is a bit like being in a car and you've got this wonderful gear stick that is very logical very structured systems orientated and then i've got this accelerator called adhd that wants to go head first 100 miles an hour so that dichotomy that and your awareness now of that thing happening and who you are and which bits to not press and which bits to pull you've translated into this bigger charity the hidden 20 you've created a podcast you get very high profile people to come onto it you want a bunch of awards the voice that you're giving to this big community what's been the feedback i used to say i still say i think on the drink side let's not get carried away guys we're not saving lives you know let's let's kind of make sure feet on the floor whereas with the hidden 20 % we have saved lives and we have you know I my wife was a guest earlier on to come and talk about what a nightmare I am what was the biggest bit of the nightmare what does she say she just I think where to start I didn't even tell her I was going for an autism assessment for example and I decided to do this while she was pregnant with our third daughter.

18:20I mean, like, just silliness. But following that episode, we had a lady reach out who was literally bags packed to walk out on her husband. And she listened to the episode with Sam with my wife and didn't. And it's all good kind of sharing, you know, information or listeners hearing from famous people or world-leading experts. But that kind of change or we're getting emails on a sort of daily basis from people who write long, very long emails and pour their heart out and are basically saying thank you or I feel seen. I think that's another comment we see a lot of thanks to the visibility. I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel understood, which feels good.

19:19When you set it up, was it as simple as, I'm just going to do this? I was diagnosed. I then went straight into research, both sort of, I guess, for my own brain, but also what's autism all about, what's going on in the world. I was then diagnosed ADHD and so added that into the research mix. I then was learning about things I'd never heard of, dyspraxia and dyscalculia. I was coming up against, oh my God, I don't know anything about this. I know all the myths. Okay. Then I found two things. One, I found all the problems. So the homelessness rates, the suicide rates, the unemployment rates, the divorce rates, the bullying rates, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, being completely abnormal to what is quote unquote normal within society.

20:14That was dreadful. I then on the flip side, I remember watching the Apple's 1984 Think Different ad and I'd seen it a number of times, but I hadn't realized that basically every person featured in the advert was neurodivergent or believed to be neurodivergent. I hadn't realized that Muhammad Ali was dyslexic or all my heroes, All the wonderful Mozart's and Picasso's, Agatha Christie's, Hans Christian Andersen, all these amazing people, both in science, art, music, film, business, were all either diagnosed or believed to have been neurodivergent. So it's like, how are we at two ends of the spectrum here?

21:05How we got it so wrong? And so set the charity up to like join the dots and try and share the truth and catch society up on actually a modern day understanding that a lot of the, you know, I was born autistic. I didn't develop it. I was born ADHD. I will be ADHD for the rest of my life. But we believe that you got to your 16th birthday. You could only be a white boy, by the way. you're a white boy you get to your 16th birthday and da da ADHD leaves and so we we've known so little actually and therefore we've developed so much stereotypes so much stigma so many kind of this is what an autistic person is does looks like and of course and we'll come back to this just to cut in the connection with addiction yep is very well documented now once you understand And that you can start to address the addictive tendencies, which, of course, is a big issue for society at large and for individuals as well, obviously.

22:13Much more coming up. I hope we're going to squeeze it into my final chat with Ben Branson. That's come up in a couple of minutes. We've also got some music from Kamazi Washington. That's all coming up in just a moment. Don't go anywhere. Jazz Shapers on Jazz FM. In partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal. Ben Branson's with me just for a few minutes. founder of Seedlip, founder of The Hidden 20 % and also of Pollen Projects which is the over what do you want to call that? The top company? The top co in the lingo exactly which oversees all these other clever things that he's looking at What I read about you is that you make things simple that's the way you describe yourself at the end of the day you distill literally and intellectually issues down to what is really going on here and that's about understanding.

23:06Is that the main driver of your success? And I'm going to call it success and I'm going to ask you something after that. Do you think that's what makes you different? And is that the function of ADHD meets autism and all that? I think one of my most favorite books, and I give this out to all my team, is a book called Brutal Simplicity of Thought. It was written by MC Saatchi and the premise is really, really simple. You don't even have to read it. It's really, really hard to make things simple. So most people don't. It's really easy to make things complicated and complex and wordy and all the rest of it.

23:49So yeah, I do, I kind of have to make things simple for my own brain because it builds capacity. If I've got, you know, I have four or five projects on, but I only have to remember three things about each one. And each one only has one priority. And so if it's made simple, which should translate down through our plans, the team's work, et cetera, and that's what it also needs to do for the consumer and for the public because we're busy, people have got busy brains, we're bombarded with information. Yeah. When people send me pictures of trees, events about trees, photos from their holiday of a tree ask me if they can send me some of their wood what i know is they have seen a tree and they thought about me and silver that simple tiny little connection that's all we need to do and so yeah i think i am consistently pushing for simplicity to make things easier for myself, clearer for the team, and hopefully stickier for the public.

25:01Now I get that, and this is all the positive articulation of the benefits of making things simple, distillation. That process though, to get to it, do you enjoy the, there are 48 ,000 things, or there are 38 variables, and now I've got it down to one simple, silver, the lovely drink, think of trees. getting that getting to that is not easy no do you like that process or do you kind of have a love-hate relationship with it what's what's the deal i think i i do actually really love it i do you know but on monday i want to close the business and stop everything and everything's rubbish and on wednesday everything's back to being wonderful and brilliant because you found the time to go through the problem.

25:47Yeah, and so take trees, for example. There are 73 ,000 tree species. That's nearly twice the number of edible plants. Think about that and then creating a liquid from trees. Well, where do you start? And when nobody can tell you, yeah, there's a lot of variables and so i'm a big fan actually of a lot of self-imposed rules i hate a blank piece of paper it's the worst thing that you could give me and it is about enforcing kind of some rules or some structure i think that's a way to get better ideas and that's what certainly helped with yeah with silver i think and and some of our own projects and just because we're going to run out of time just one quick question before we we go to your song choice which inevitably will be about trees i think i think it is what does the next five years look like we've done the last 10 we've celebrate we're going to celebrate in november 10 years what's it about give me in in a brutally simple way one word i give you two words don't know um i am not uh i don't have the five ten year.

27:04I'm not a planner in that sense. Yeah, I just, I can't, I've got dreams, of course I have, and I've got pictures that I can see of how I'd like things to be. But I don't work back chronologically from in five years time, I want X, Y and Z. Maybe it's just dreams. Yeah, I think it's... There you go, you keep dreaming. Yeah, it's dreams. I think that's lighter and... Yeah, and probably more truthful for you. Yeah, more agile. It's been really cool talking to you, Ben. Thanks, Elliot. Really, really enjoyed it. Just before I let you go, what is your song choice per chance, Ben Branson? What's it called?

27:41Is it called Trees? It is called Trees by Sarah Vaughan. It had to be. And why have you chosen it? I just, well, A... Apart from love of trees, obviously. Apart from my love of trees, I think, A, I have three daughters. It's a pretty busy household. It's quite a loud household. and I'm obviously subjected to lots of different music with having daughters. Most of it is not that old and so, or not that slow. And so actually going for a walk in the woods and listening to someone's voice like Sarah Vaughan's that is just honey. Yeah, it had to be something like slow and steady and obviously about trees.

28:28Sarah Vaughan with Trees, the song choice of my business shaper today, Ben Branson. He talked about none of his ideas having anything to do with business, but underpinned by his own curiosity. Start with that, the rest will follow. I learned about business, he said, and he even bought the book about setting up a business for dummies. How honest was that? I hate having a blank piece of paper, which is why I create self-imposed rules. fantastic way of thinking about structuring your thinking and your creativity and finally the thing he loves most it's positive change absolutely great that's it from me and jazz shapers have a lovely weekend jazz shapers on jazz fm in partnership with mishkondorea it's business but it's personal we hope you enjoy that edition of jazz shapers you'll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive to find out more just search jazz shapers and iTunes or your favorite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com forward slash jazzshapers.

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