Dame Anya Hindmarch: Founder of luxury bags and accessories brand, Anya Hindmarch

11:34Shayoni Dutta:And so just to be clear, I was actually in the business but not running it. Yes, yes, yes. Just so that I don't get it wrong. but I moved to the kind of creative role for that time but yes it's weird when you've run a business so I was running a business before and doing the creative role and then I moved to just doing the creative role and then went back to doing both essentially and it's hard because I think in business the most exciting bit and actually one of the most important bits is the culture you know everyone talks about the P &L and the product but actually what they don't put on a balance sheet is actually the value and the asset that you have on your team and your people and hopefully a sort of a fluid mood of, you know, banter that actually means that you can have stupid ideas that become great ideas or great ideas that become stupid ideas sometimes.

12:20Shayoni Dutta:But, you know, that valuable sort of flexibility and culture is really, really important. And I think what we were at risk of losing, I think, during that time was that. So some of the good people were beginning to leave and that was risky for me. So the bit I have really loved. And I think that's an important thing about a founder-led company. And of course, there are lots of ways to run a successful company. But I think there's something quite valuable in keeping founders in businesses that then transition on as they will as people retire or leave. But keeping that sense of community and culture within it.

12:57Shayoni Dutta:So that was a bit I really enjoyed getting back and bringing a tight, we always talk about tight ropes, you know, tight team with tight ropes. and whether that's the office in Tokyo or it's the retail network, feeling anyone can pick up the phone, even on the refuse this morning. Actually, there's nothing that we won't address and find a way through. And then people, I think, feel included. And that, I think, just brings enjoyment to a job and it brings you get more out of people. It's just a win-win, really.

13:22Dame Anya Hindmarch:Stay with me for much more from my business shape today. It's Anya. Hi, Marge. I want to dig into family in general, actually, and how that has translated over to your ethos and the way that you run your business. That's in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.

13:34Shayoni Dutta:This is Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss in partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal.

13:42Dame Anya Hindmarch:You can hear all our former business shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast. I think there's about 550 of them, which is not bad, is it? And you can hear this very program again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favorite podcast platform. My guest today is Dame. I'm going to use the word Dame. It's so cool to become a dame, isn't it?

13:56Shayoni Dutta:I think it makes me sound like Widow Twanky, to be honest. Obviously, it's a lovely thing. Dame Manuel Heimars is with me today.

14:02Dame Anya Hindmarch:founder of the Aponomous Luxury Bags and Accessories brand, Anya Haimosh. When I said to people I was meeting you, and I meet lots of cool people, they're like, oh, great, ask her for a bag. And I said, yes, of course, obviously I will. I mean, she never gets any requests like that. And of course, we don't know each other, so she's going to give me like 10. So which one would you like? I mean, I don't mind. You know, you take your pick. You're talking about culture, and you're talking about tightropes, which I love, actually. That's a very nice metaphor. Your book, If In Doubt, Wash Your Hair, the things you've talked about with regard to family and the importance of kindness and your husband's grief from his loss of his first wife, you talk about emotions a lot.

14:41Dame Anya Hindmarch:Not a lot a lot, but you actually talk about them, which I think is a thing. And it feels like those principles are principles that inform the business. How does that land? Again, you mentioned the culture had been lost. In real terms, what does it mean for the people that are working with you? What can they say when they work with Anya? That is probably something they may not get.

15:02Shayoni Dutta:You also have to ask them. And I have, just to be clear. Oh, good. Well, then you can answer that question, yeah. So, well, I mean, I think it just brings a working environment where people hopefully aren't sort of cowering in the corner and they can, you know, it's kind of kinder and more human, hopefully. I mean, just in every business is particular at times. But I think it's... But fashion is not known for that. No, it's true.

15:22Dame Anya Hindmarch:It is an exacting business. And I know certain people that work in the industry with very high-profile people. it can be pretty hellish.

15:30Shayoni Dutta:Well, I've never worked anywhere else apart from some of the outside roles I do, but I've never actually had another job, really. So it's hard to know. But what is nice is that when people come to the company, they say it's a nice atmosphere. And that's a proud-making thing, and I'm really pleased about that. And yet I'm sad to think, actually, that people might be working in companies where they can't be themselves, or they feel too scared to bring something up or to raise an idea, and that seems a great shame. And I think it's actually a huge loss for the company, because having that table where people can kind of go, how about, is so important.

16:02Shayoni Dutta:And someone junior coming up with an idea could be a brilliant idea. That's a really important thing. So I think I'm a great believer in kindness. I know it's an overused word, but I think it's really important.

16:09Dame Anya Hindmarch:No, no, it isn't. Are you kind to yourself, do you think?

16:11Shayoni Dutta:Not always. And that's part of being an entrepreneur and a mother of five, right? I mean, who has the time, frankly? But no, it's a good point, and it's something I write about in my book, actually, which is it's all very well if you can have, hopefully, a kind work environment and home, but you also need to look after yourself because you get very tired.

16:29Dame Anya Hindmarch:And how do you do that?

16:31Shayoni Dutta:I have a very nice husband. He's quite annoying, but I quite like him.

16:35Dame Anya Hindmarch:I don't think everyone's annoying. You know anyone after a while, they're all annoying. We're annoying, right? I'm not saying you're annoying, obviously.

16:40Shayoni Dutta:I'm very annoying. So he says, yeah. But, you know, we get now more time, actually. I mean, it was obviously many very, very busy years. I mean, there was a period of, I think, you know, three years of five different schools as an example just of the logistics of that on top of work and travel and so that was a very very intense time and um but now we have a bit more time and we can you know we can escape and have a bit of headspace and you know walking and all the normal things but just just time time to waste don't you dream of that yes that's what i quite like about an airport and obviously i hate

17:12Dame Anya Hindmarch:traveling yeah you're you're stuck you've got two hours you've got nowhere to go it's such a lovely thing and as a creative person do you find that the quote-unquote wasting time is a good place to ruminate and have ideas.

17:22Shayoni Dutta:That's the most important creative time. And it's a real lesson that actually, which is we've just got to put down those things down there, those square things that are always next to us, because actually you are constantly just sort of...

17:33Dame Anya Hindmarch:Doing.

17:33Shayoni Dutta:Well, just not having an empty head. An empty head is very, very important. It often hurts an empty head, doesn't it? Because you kind of... Well, it's a bit scary to feel, right?

17:40Dame Anya Hindmarch:Yeah, you feel things and you go, oh, that wasn't very good. Oh, that's a bit... What did I just do there? There was something, again, I picked up when I was looking, researching it. and you and I have one thing in common, which is we like lists and we like order. I have a list, not just a list, but kind of color-coded for the whole of my life because I've got four kids.

18:00Shayoni Dutta:We could probably have a list off. I think we'll have a list off.

18:03Dame Anya Hindmarch:My list discipline is pretty perfect. I don't know that I could compete with much, but I have a feeling my list is pretty good. Yeah, they're well-classed.

18:09Shayoni Dutta:There's a whole podcast on just that. I'm going to show you after this,

18:12Dame Anya Hindmarch:I'm going to show you my list. But I think the serious side is... Mine's going to be better. I'm not sure. I'm not competing with anything else, but I've got a feeling I'm pretty good on the list. But in terms of that juxtaposition between the creative mind and the organized mind, is that a conflict or is it actually liberating?

18:26Shayoni Dutta:I think it's essential. And that said, I know a number of creatives who are not organized, so maybe it's not essential. But I don't think you can be a better creative if you are organized because you just waste time or you're inefficient or you lose things. And I am very organized. And I know it's deeply unsexy, but I've learned to love it. I've learned to create a business out of it. But the way you say it is sexy, so it's fine.

18:51Dame Anya Hindmarch:I know it's not sexy. That's okay. I think it just was.

18:54Shayoni Dutta:I think you found it quite sexy. So, no, I'm all about organization. And in fact, I literally, in fact, we did a whole, we have a shop dedicated to organization, which we now call the travel shop. It was called the labeled shop because I would label everything if I had my way. My dino machine is the best present I've ever been given. I would label my five children. Just so you can remember their names. Well, mainly that. but actually we did a sort of a week-long workshop where we brought in these people who are sort of best in class at actually how to manage your time and they are experts on how to manage your inbox which is why I'm just saying my list may be pretty good.

19:30Dame Anya Hindmarch:Okay, inbox, but what was the thing? Less than 10 is ideal?

19:33Shayoni Dutta:Well, they would say none because the inbox they would say is for receiving things, not for retaining things and then you put it from your inbox into different sections, things you can do on the train, things you can do in the car, things you can do in the office, things you can do at home because what's the point of looking at a list in the office of things you can only do at home

19:50Dame Anya Hindmarch:stay with me for more pearls of wisdom on list management and it's so good we've gone from award-winning fashion guru to list management i can be more fun than this no no i don't want you to be it's my fault i've led the witness it's totally my fault saving for much more from a busy shaper is that and yeah i'm much the highs and lows and the way that you've dealt with them And you talk about fear and how fear is your friend and doubt is your friend. In practical terms, how do you not get paralyzed by something that might worry you? And I'm referring, I think a long time ago, you had some trauma around public speaking.

20:27Dame Anya Hindmarch:That was a thing. And then you've gone, hold on a minute, fear. Do you know what? I can harness that. And doubt. I think I can harness that. Doubt is your friend. It keeps you safe. I think you said, which I loved because we all want, at the end of the day, we all want safety as humans. How have you navigated that and come to the point where you can actually call them your friends?

20:43Shayoni Dutta:I mean, I think age, learning, experience, all those things. And they're still not really my friends all the time. No. But I've learned to know that it's okay. And I think as you get older, and I had a child who wasn't very well at one point, who's, thank God, absolutely fine now, but you suddenly realize that actually nothing matters that much. And that is a really lovely thing of getting older, that all the little things that we worry about day in, day out, that feel catastrophic and, you know, really serious. And, you know, sometimes some of them are. But you will find a way through. And I think that is a really nice realization of age.

21:18Shayoni Dutta:And that actually all these day-to-day problems are actually the sort of fun that keeps us busy. Do you know what I mean? So not to say... But that's very hard, though, to say nothing matters in that sense.

21:29Dame Anya Hindmarch:Nothing really matters. You will overcome. Because when there's serious things like your son being unwell, for example...

21:34Shayoni Dutta:Well, that does matter. And I think that's the point.

21:36Dame Anya Hindmarch:But perspective is what you're talking about.

21:39Shayoni Dutta:I think perspective helps. And I think also you learn that you will find a way through. So things do matter. And business decisions do matter. Things that go wrong, of course, do matter. But I think you realize that you will find the best route through. That's what you learn to trust.

21:53Dame Anya Hindmarch:Do you talk to yourself about that when you're going through those things, those moments? Sometimes.

21:58Shayoni Dutta:And I talk at my husband, he says. So that's the point of being married. It's the point of a car journey, I think, is to talk at your husband. Do you have car arguments?

22:06Dame Anya Hindmarch:We have carguments. I mean, literally, it's a whole genre of arguments. I'm not even sure he listens.

22:11Shayoni Dutta:I think a cargument.

22:12Dame Anya Hindmarch:It's a one-way. Yeah. It's a soliloquy. Transmit.

22:14Shayoni Dutta:Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was a very, very decent man in that respect. But no, I think you just realize that you will find a route. It might not always be the best route.

22:24Dame Anya Hindmarch:But is there not a visceral reaction to when you're in that sense?

22:28Shayoni Dutta:Absolutely, of course. I mean, I wasn't awake at four in the morning, but that's also how you work it out, right? I think there's a process, and it's not a fun one often and sometimes it kind of feels quite physical you know, in fact when I was in those very early years and that very very busy phase as well and I used to hyperventilate, I used to literally not be able to breathe you know, which is sad, right?

22:49Dame Anya Hindmarch:But you learned how to deal with that

22:51Shayoni Dutta:Yes, and through lots of sometimes I remember going to this acupuncturist and he said you know, what's your problem? I went well this and this and this and this and this and you know, and he went well you chose all of that

23:01Dame Anya Hindmarch:And you have chosen it? Yeah, so I Have you chosen it? And or has it chosen you? Are you compelled to be this person? You're not going to suddenly wake up and go, I don't want to run my own business. I don't want to keep having ideas.

23:11Shayoni Dutta:Well, I think you do choose it, right? And so if you choose not to do it, you choose not to do it. But I think it was a real, that was an amazingly sobering and useful lesson, actually.

23:21Dame Anya Hindmarch:In what way was it, though? In what sense?

23:23Shayoni Dutta:Well, it just stopped moaning. And the fact is, you know, this is all your own decision making. And of course, there'll be tough things if that's the life you choose. And by the way, I choose it again. I love it. I realize that whatever I do, I tend to max out, which is probably pretty stupid. But, you know, I always get a kick out of it, right?

23:37Dame Anya Hindmarch:And in terms of teaching other people and having, if you see it, you can believe it and you can be it, you've been involved in some efforts to help others who haven't maybe had such a, you know, aren't exposed to entrepreneurs. Just tell me a little bit about what you've done in that space.

23:53Shayoni Dutta:Well, I think it's kind to share the bad bits as well as the good bits. And I think it's a very important thing because so often people just kind of, you know, jazz up all the good stuff. So obviously I'll talk to people who contact me and I was a business ambassador for a while for the government and I was on the board of trade, various things like that. And one of the examples that we worked on was actually trying to, and I think we spoke earlier about the fact, I think that in some ways mentorship or just hearing people talk about business and how they might've hit a problem and found their way through it can really help someone in business who's in that sort of tricky moment.

24:26Shayoni Dutta:And I think that sort of help is actually almost more important than access to finance, actually. I think, you know, just finding a route through. So we set up a, we gave it a catchy name, which I can't remember anymore. But we set up an evening where entrepreneurs across the country in town halls were talking to anyone who had a business and they could just come and listen for free. So brilliant, you know, Charles Dunstan or Natalie Massonet or, you know, Julian Metcalf, people, you know, had really been through the mill starting businesses, came and gave up their time to speak at six o 'clock, literally, across the entire country.

24:59Shayoni Dutta:And it was really lovely, actually. And I think that sort of effort of just, you know, taking time out to listen to how these amazing business people work through those problems is just what you need when you're sitting there thinking, I can't find a way through. So that might be an example of something that was good to do and I think made a difference. And certainly going and listening to, I remember listening to Jim Slater years and years ago when I was trying to work something out. And he sort of said, you know, You have to always make the right decision for the business, which might be the tough decision.

25:29Shayoni Dutta:And then you can deliver it kindly. And at that point, I was trying to do something which was a pretty tough decision, but I knew it was the right thing for the business and therefore the right thing for the greater good. But actually, you can make tough decisions and do them really nicely. And I remember that really helped me at that moment. So, you know, important to listen and to teach when it comes to it, too.

25:48Dame Anya Hindmarch:Final chat coming up with Anya Hindmarch in a few minutes. And we've got some coca roca for you, too. Don't go anywhere because that is happening very shortly here on Jazz FM.

25:57Shayoni Dutta:This is Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss in partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal.

26:06Dame Anya Hindmarch:Just for a few more minutes, I have the dame in the house. We've just read it.

26:10Shayoni Dutta:It's not giving up, is it?

26:10Dame Anya Hindmarch:I'm not giving up. I just kind of like it. It's great having you. Anja Hymos is my business shaper. And just, as I said, just for a few more minutes. So very quickly, when you wrote the book, was it hard to write?

26:21Shayoni Dutta:Yes, very. I'm a dyslexic.

26:22Dame Anya Hindmarch:How did you do it?

26:24Shayoni Dutta:Well, I thought it was just seven essays I could do it. But actually, you have to kind of link all the different chapters. That's the hard bit. But actually, more than that, it was very personal. And I'm quite private, actually. And yet I felt it was important to write a book at a time when everyone was talking. Well, my kids were talking about mental health and anxiety and awareness.

26:42Dame Anya Hindmarch:This is lockdown as well, actually, wasn't it? Yes, it was.

26:45Shayoni Dutta:And I just felt it was important to write a book as someone, because we all have all those things, right? But to add an experience to that. And also to be a book that is not about leaning in or manning up, but is actually saying, yes, it is a bit hard at times, but this is how I got through it. So it's a sort of book that was intended to be kind and to kind of pass down to my daughter's generation.

27:04Dame Anya Hindmarch:And once you, I suppose, you put it out there and you recognize it's there, that in itself makes things much easier to deal with in a way you don't actually have to answer the question. You've just gone, none of these things are tough. And everyone goes, oh, I accept they're tough. You're not, as you said, not manning up. It is quite liberating. It's freeing.

27:17Shayoni Dutta:And I think it's also important to be able to be a woman in a business world and not have to try and, you know, so it was just explaining, I think, all those things that also women have to juggle. And now, actually, to be honest, in my kids' generation, they're sharing it much more between, you know, men and women. But it was, yeah, so it's out there.

27:35Dame Anya Hindmarch:It's out there. Yeah. The juggling thing you mentioned, you've been juggling for a long, long time. You keep coming up with stuff, though, and you keep working your way through it, whether it's a refuse issue or it's a materials issue. or whatever it is. Yeah, but the village concept, you keep changing. Tell me a little bit about that, but also does it feel like 40 years is under the belt almost? 40 years again. I know, I'm sorry. I'm not meaning to be mean. I'm just like, I'm overwhelmed with being impressed by the fact that, no, but it's not. Businesses don't survive unless they're continually innovating.

28:08Dame Anya Hindmarch:The serious side of this is you keep going and you keep going with new things and you've got humor and you seem to be expressing yourself even more and more and more in a fun in a relaxer not in a not in a forceway it's just kind of happening so where's that energy coming from is it because you're more centered and aligned um i think you care a bit less the

28:28Shayoni Dutta:lovely thing about getting older is you just you stop worrying actually um and that's not entirely true but you you stop worrying about it i mean there's that lovely oscar wild quote which is be yourself the other places are already taken and i always think that's such a nice quote because actually it's true you know i am me and i'm very far from perfect and i annoy myself all the time but you can't change and actually just leaning into that and if that's toothpaste ice cream or a shop that sells weird things What was the OXO one?

28:57Dame Anya Hindmarch:Was it OXO ice cream as well? It's delicious.

29:01Shayoni Dutta:Paxo, more challenging.

29:03Dame Anya Hindmarch:On that just for a moment do you just then commission people to go and fiddle with the flavours and make it work?

29:09Shayoni Dutta:No, we really work hard to make them really delicious and we make them in Devon and it's very interesting actually taste and your brain and how you approach it because often you're like it's going to be disgusting and therefore it's disgusting but actually so we do a blind tasting where you come in and you have to test things

29:22Dame Anya Hindmarch:I saw that you've done a thing where you have all the different numbers of all the ice creams and you have to make the you have to connect the flavours it would be really hard especially if they're not very good I'm just joking I'm sure they're wonderful but seriously though

29:33Shayoni Dutta:there's actually something lovely I think about thinking about retail differently fashion was quite cold and not very inclusive always had those intermediaries as I said between department stores and magazines. And I think that actually now it's much more direct. And I think actually your customer likes you just being a bit honest and being not, I mean, I'm not cool anyway, so that's easy. But I think that sense of connecting with your community a bit more and being honest about why I design things actually does resonate. And I am quite private, so it's kind of hard going to that more first person thing.

30:05Shayoni Dutta:But I think that customers want something different. And I think that sort of unsmiling, cold, overly thin model rather than actually explaining why it can make someone feel better and what the point of this product is actually it does make a difference.

30:17Dame Anya Hindmarch:But you must be a witty person because whether it's the other... Well, at least enjoying a kind of a wry smile, whether it's the eyes or whether it's the flavours or whether it's the kitsch kind of brands that you then integrate into your bag. Those things are... They have to come from somewhere quite authentic, which is I want to play.

30:33Shayoni Dutta:I can't take myself too seriously. That's because the annoying husband would take the mickey, frankly, and the children keep me quite grounded. So it's more about that, I think, probably. But also, life's too short, right? We've got to have a laugh.

30:44Dame Anya Hindmarch:Yeah, and it is totally contravening all the high-end fashion rules that say, this is a proper piece of gorgeous material that we have hand-grafted over many years, and there isn't any humour. It's all very, very, very serious. Just before I let you go, it's been lovely talking to you. What's your song choice, and why have you chosen it?

31:02Shayoni Dutta:So I have chosen My Room by Earl Oaken, and he is someone I know and he has performed for us actually at many family parties and he's an amazing guy and he arrives in spats and sort of jam-jab bottom glasses and then he sings this quite sexy song called My Room which is a bit naughty hopefully it won't be vetoed and he plays instruments by just making noises that come out of his mouth and he's very funny but sings beautifully I'm not sure it's strictly jazz I think it's a bit maybe on the edge of boss and over bluesy

31:33Dame Anya Hindmarch:it's kind of boss and over yeah we're loud hopefully it's okay

31:35Shayoni Dutta:but it just makes me smile and I wanted to pick something you probably hadn't heard before and I would really honestly urge you to go and Google Earl Oaken and go and see him live he's just brilliant

31:46Dame Anya Hindmarch:Earl Oaken with My Room the song choice of my business shape today Anya Hindmarch and what a treat that was too she said so many things that were full of wisdom mood altering impact of fashion that's how she's seen it and that's what she loves about it acknowledging there is something called the creative dip and being able to deal with it it's natural don't stress you can go through it. A team has to be bound together with nice tight ropes. A lovely thought about the importance of culture and the connectivity of people within teams. Have an empty head. Clear your head if you really want creative ideas.

32:20Dame Anya Hindmarch:That is obviously the truth. We've heard it before, but I love the way that she talked about it. Nothing matters that much in the sense that it's okay. Have perspective. There are big things that do, but most things don't. You will find a way through and you're at her heart of what she is, is a problem solver. And this I really liked in terms of thinking about business and being focused. You will have to find out what the right decision is and the right decision might be the tough one, but do it because it's the right thing for the business and deliver it with kindness. Fantastic stuff. That's it from Jazz Shapers.

32:52Dame Anya Hindmarch:Have a lovely weekend. Jazz Shapers on Jazz FM in partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal. We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You'll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more, just search Jazz Shapers on iTunes or your favourite podcast platform, or head over to mishkon.com forward slash Jazz Shapers.