John Ramsay: Founder of Social Ability

0:00Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishkondorea. What you're about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM. However, the music has been cut due to rights issues. The world's greatest jazz, soul and blues. From the world's greatest artists. This is Jazz FM. Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss. In partnership with Mishkondorea. It's business, but it's personal. Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world, together with musicians shaping jazz soul and blues. My guest today is John Ramsey, founder of Social Ability, a health tech company dedicated to revolutionizing care through joyful, interactive, light-based activities.

0:44When John, age 12, learned his father had been diagnosed with early-onset dementia, he helped care for his dad for 10 years, experiencing the profound challenges of this condition. While later working as a corporate lawyer with Linklaters, John found himself drawn, as he says, to something with more social purpose, something I could look back on with pride and give meaning to what happened to me as a kid. In 2019, he founded Social Ability with its flagship service, the Happiness Programme, what a lovely name, which is now used in care homes, hospitals, schools, and community spaces across the UK, helping more than 11 ,500 people and aiming to transform the way we think about dementia care, not as something clinical and routine, but human, joyful, and deeply creative.

1:25Hello. Hello. She's looking at me going, is that the moment I say hello? Yes, it is. Why not? I have interviewed a number of people who have been lawyers and then gone to found businesses. Not the most natural path, John. Yeah, no. I think often when working at a law firm, people were trying to be entrepreneurial, but it doesn't always necessarily come as naturally. You know, you think of a lawyer, you think of avoiding risk, whereas actually when you're trying to start a business, You need to sort of throw the ball and then go and find it and battle your way there. And make some pretty, you know, quick decisions in moments.

1:59And you never know what's going to work and what's not. But yeah, it's been a really exciting time. Very, very different to work at Linglators, I'm not going to lie. No, I can imagine. And you talk about throwing the ball and then sort of seeing where it lands and all of that. It sounds like the die was cast for John Ramsey quite early on in his life, even if he sort of suppressed it for a while. In other words, your dad being diagnosed with onset dementia, and then you say, no, no, I'm going to do a serious thing. I'm going to be a lawyer. It's okay. And then the boomerang. Yeah, no, absolutely.

2:29I mean, I think it's actually a lot easier for me to reflect on it now, especially being a father myself. Growing up with dad, I mean... What was dad's name, by the way? Dad was David. David Ramsey. Because I've read lots, and it didn't say his name. And I think, you know, I lost my father quite recently, and obviously yours was a long a longer while ago but it's David yeah it's David and you know what I was just chatting the other day to a neighbor about what it's like to lose a parent and how often you lose their name and their memory and you don't really talk about them because they're not present and so when you know other people are talking about the grandparents you almost feel like you can't chip in or people don't you know they shy away from asking you so as you say like yeah he was David John Ramsey he was a great man he was my dad and he got dementia and it's sort of important to make sure that that is part of my everyday existence and it is and more profoundly than ever having two young boys I sort of see the passage of time and the relationship and I realize probably what I missed out on but at the time I did find it and this is a hard word to say but I almost found it boring because my life became a routine and a repetition of caring for a guy who didn't know my name.

3:43And that is hard as a teenager going through a lot of the emotion. And so sort of to your point around joining Linklaters and sort of having the career that maybe my mum wanted me to have, I just, when he passed away just before my finals at Oxford, I didn't want to ruin the hard work. I didn't want to go off the rails. So I did actually choose proactively a career that gave me my two-year law conversion, a year to go traveling, and then a two-year job, the training contract, because I knew that having had the 10-year journey with my dad, that I did need time with structure in it and not have to think about what I wanted to do with my future, because then I could almost sort myself out.

4:27And then you get onto sort of like the rollercoaster or treadmill of law firm life. And those five years actually then gave me the opportunity to reflect and what became a few more years, the opportunity to reflect about what I actually really wanted to do in my life and how dementia has affected me and how my dad's legacy is part of my decision making and that I can have agency to choose what I want to do and hopefully change the world whilst building a successful business was sort of where I came out. John Rousey is our business shaper he's the founder of Social Ability a reformed lawyer and someone more seriously that as he said himself has agency and has decided to take this path it's really hard doing that John isn't it in life I mean I read somewhere you said I just quit and I didn't tell my fiancé at the time which I imagine is your wife now but you felt like you had it, why?

5:21Why do you think you were able to cross the Rubicon? There's a certain element of pride you know I think knowing that my dad was diagnosed age 52 it wasn't that far away anymore you know whereas I think I was like 31 32 when I quit things and I suppose from one element I'd kind of complained about the long hours and the repetitive work that wasn't really me because I'm not a reader you know I'm not someone that needs to sit behind a desk and read contracts which you know you should do and people who are good at it is great the bit I loved was kind of selling and being the business development and meeting clients and talking to them and you know the teamwork and having fun and I just think I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and I genuinely remember the day I quit I didn't tell my wife I was going to quit I was I was literally stood in the shower down in the gym at Linglators and I said it's time to put your money where your mouth is you've just got to go and quit.

6:22So I just walked upstairs and I quit. And I just, as you say, threw the die and then see what happens. I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know it was going to involve dementia at that moment. I just knew I couldn't carry on being a lawyer. I needed something with some social impact, some agency. And I love the idea of running a business and doing something on my own. And you just got to go for it. And don't get me wrong, I was extremely privileged that I had the financial capacity to give myself six months to do something, that I was privileged enough to have a really grounded education and the experience at Linklaters that I felt that, you know, if it didn't work in the next six months to a year, I could go back and find something.

7:01I back myself. But you do have to just make the decision if you are sure. And too many people end up, you know, supporting kids, big mortgages, school fees, that they actually lose that agency because they are now dependent on the monthly wage. You know, I'd argue that if you're good, you're good and you can do it. whatever but um yeah i don't really know why i made the decision i'm just so pleased i did and this was like 10 years ago now just over yeah so venture one talk to me a little bit about that and then tell me how it morphed into what we have now called social ability and specifically i love the name of it as i said the happiness program just give me the what did you start doing and why didn't that work and then how did you pivot to social ability yeah so i mean so initially i really didn't know what I wanted to do and went traveling with my wife, now wife.

7:47And I started working in the world of dementia and helping a few other companies sell their technology. I was also doing some like interview coaching and Airbnb. I think it's called theater diggers, renting out our spare room to people working in musicals and trying to help that just to try and live life net. So that was spending what I was earning. And that didn't really work out for various reasons but also mainly that I didn't have sort of control over the production of what I was doing and therefore the impact and so I was lucky enough to meet a guy called Sean Bowler and we co-founded Social Ability together so that he had some financial backing to help me and together we had a vision which was becoming partners with our clients rather than just selling them a piece of technology because a piece of technology is only worth how you use it If it's locked in a cupboard, why have you bought a product?

8:40And so for us, it's a monthly partnership so that we can deliver unlimited training and we can raise awareness around dementia and other cognitive challenges. And we can sort of inspire care home staff and hospital staff to use our tech as a gateway to connecting with the person because that's what it's all about. Like too much of care and medicine is around a diagnosis and what you can't do. You were given a label and from one day to the next, like my dad, you can't do it this is what you can't do whereas we're trying to say why not flip that and talk about what you can do what is possible and how can we use technology and care and relationships to really just have a happier life and that is the genesis of the happiness program Much more from my guest John Ramsey in a couple of minutes also if you have a computer or a phone and you can access InTech go and just have a look at Social Ability and you will see some beautiful bit of footage of these interactive lights working and the way that both kids and adults are engaged and are connecting with each other, which, of course, is just one critical part of how this works.

9:47John Ramsey's coming back in a couple of minutes, as I said, but right now we're going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series, which you can find on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their practical advice and industry insights for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip, we hear from Dr. Max Munford, co-founder and CEO of Austec, the MedTech company on a mission to transform orthopaedic surgery through cutting-edge 3D printing technology. The Mishcon Innovation Series. Inspiration from founders of cutting-edge businesses.

10:16In association with Jazz Shapers with Mishcon Derea. What advice would you give to anybody wishing to break into the MedTech industry? I think start with patients and understand the pain points of all of your stakeholders. so for us surgeons are a really important piece of the puzzle but i would also add into that you know we've spoken about regulation i think regulation is absolutely crucial and making sure you embrace that and work with it making sure your processes your team and your product are all aligned with the regulatory requirements because otherwise you know the regulations won't change you will have to and that will just slow down your time to market when you get there later on.

10:58So if you're in MedTech, I think working with regulators rather than against them is your way forward. The Mishcon Innovation Series, in association with Jazz Shapers, with Mishcon Derea. This is Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss, in partnership with Mishcon Derea. It's business, but it's personal. You can enjoy all our former business shapes on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very program again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favorite podcast platform, whatever that may be. My guest there is John Ramsey, founder of Social Ability, a company dedicated to revolutionizing care through interactive light and sound technology.

11:37That's the official thing. Now, we talked very early on, you said, you know, you enjoyed the selling and you enjoyed client relationships and stuff. And now, as I looked at what you've been doing, you aren't selling a piece of kit that sits in a room. What you're selling is a methodology that is supported by a piece of kit. you're selling a different way of interacting with people who happen to be diagnosed with dementia how do you sell that john fundamentally it sells itself if i could give an in-person demo to absolutely everyone in a structured way in a commercially sustainable way then it sells itself your average with the greatest respect in the world but your average care home setting whilst people and it's almost culturally this is what we've developed here in the uk is that someone is diagnosed with dementia, as long as they're safe, so they're in a locked room, as long as they're washed, as they're fed, they're medicated, we sort of say that that's good enough.

12:32Now, there are obviously great care homes out there, but I must have been to about 2 ,000, and there are an awful, a surprising amount of them that might look good and look like a five-star hotel. It's almost playing on the guilt of the child that's putting their parent into that establishment. But what are they doing during the day? What is their life? What is their, we call it activity, almost sometimes can belittle it a little bit. It's like, what do you do? It doesn't have to be all singing or dancing. It's like, how do you connect with the person? Some people in their life, they just sit in the pub and watch everyone, right?

13:02And that is enough activity for them. So how can you create that within a care home? Not just reaching out. But yeah, you know, you often see people sat around in chairs with a newspaper in the middle and a TV blaring and it's called newspaper reading and they're all asleep. They're not engaged. They're not happy. and I remember when I went to see my dad later on in life he he would walk with a purpose just do a loop and I couldn't engage him I could and then I would not want to go and see him and then I'd feel guilty about not going to see him and there would be this just constant loop and I regret some of that now but it has informed what we're doing today and I think what we've created is just very very simple it's interactive lights and sounds we are engaging through light and sound now we've just put it at the level of someone living with a cognitive disability and to sell it you just have to show how it engages the person they go from like being very very docile sometimes asleep to smiling and talking and playing and then when you engage with local nurseries in primary schools which is sort of part of our program you get that intergenerational relationship and it's knocking down the care home walls that can sometimes see a bit intimidating to the rest of society and how How did you alight on the technology and neurologically know that it would work?

14:20Because I looked at it, again, I would urge you to go online and have a look because you'll see these just beautiful lights and a board and all sorts of other things that happen. But how did you fathom it would actually, was there loads of science on this? Yeah, yeah, there is. And there's a lot of science. You know, we didn't ourselves create interactive lights. You can see some of it in the science museum and there's some famous restaurants that use it. But what we realized is that if you use it in the right way with training, then you can engage the person. You know, we've got well over 200 activities or games or experiences that you can use on our technology from literally sitting down and having a train ride on the wall.

14:58So it feels like you've left the care home. It's quite easy to be institutionalized or stars. And a lot of our, because you can project on the ceiling, a lot of what we do is helping people living in bed or end of life. You know, sort of as we alluded to earlier, how many people pass away looking at a blank ceiling, right? Very isolated on their own. if it were me I'd probably want you know pictures of my kids or Thierry Henry's goals I was going to say I knew there was going to be an Arsenal reference there John and just for the record I am an Arsenal fan so I would have Thierry Henry's goals the way he leans back and clips it to the right and then he goes in the bottom left corner what a way to go out but we don't actually address that enough in our society and so can I ask you just briefly how has this made you feel over the last few years as you've seen the palpable impact that you're having on people proud very very proud um you know it was very hard to give context into what happened to dad um you know like people don't people don't realize necessarily everyone has that you know lots of people have been through a lot of things and everyone has their you know cross to bear or whatever it might be.

16:05And often I meet people whose parents died quite suddenly young or with cancer. The problem with dad is that he sort of slipped away, sadly, and he became my dad in physical form, but he didn't know who I was. And he would get, you know, quite upset and aggressive. He thought I was a strange man in his house. And at the time it was, I was like, why me? Why am I experiencing this whereas now I can actually look back and say well at least I've done something about it at least I've tried to change lives for other people and I'd like to think that dad would be proud of me I know my family are and my my friends um and to be honest sort of what I set out to in that shower at link laters was can I look back and have I you know done something however small it might be to change the world and we you know the feedback we get on a daily basis and the fact that we've now extended it to help people living with autism and learning disabilities children and pupils with additional needs in schools and even kids with end of life you know I can't think of anything worse than having to say goodbye to your child and that we're able to kind of create experiences in that moment that at least does something to make it that tiny bit more palatable fills me with joy don't get me wrong running a business is hard and you make commercial decisions and you have to sometimes be a little bit ruthless and that does not come naturally and i'm going to come on to the the ruthless ramsey because we haven't gone but that's what's coming up next stay with me for much more john ruthless ramsey which is given the new name he's not ruthless at all he's very it's very kind man as well but there has to be the serious commercial side which i do want to explore in a moment john ramsey is my business shape today founder of social ability doing amazing things for people with dimension as we heard you also say john now it's being explored in terms of um utilizing it for children with autism and like ruthless ramsey i kind of half joke but you did reference it you have said along the way i am running a business here this does have to work how do you square that circle how do you make it work it's the toughest part and it does not come naturally to me but then i have to think about what is fair.

18:15I was also surprised about it. I didn't expect to have HR issues and financial decisions to make. It's not at the forefront when you're kind of starting. I remember I had a spreadsheet. I was watching test cricket and a phone and I was just calling through people trying to sell to them. And now to think that we've got a team of nearly 30 and we work in nine countries, it's kind of crazy. But how do I square it? There's no decision that I don't think has been fully justified and if anything i probably don't make the decision quick enough um and i give people the benefit of the doubt and the hardest the hardest the hardest thing is people right it is um letting someone go or ask them to work harder or reach a standard but at the end of the day i know that what we're trying to do has a sort of higher purpose we are trying to genuinely change the lives of the most isolated people in the world um and you need to work hard you need to be passionate and you need to do the repetitive boring work at times and we know that the outcome is so sensational and sometimes we have to be hard with our clients because they're just not you know they don't use the tech unless you're training them or you know there's 40 turnover in care homes and so they don't even tell you that the team you've trained have left and then they say oh well we're not using it and you're like well come on guys let's come in let's show you this look at that smile look at that connection look at the video i've got of the person you're telling me he's not using it.

19:35And I think, you know, we're gradually moving to a better place, but there's a long way to go. And I think people are much more aware of what's available in the technology. But, you know, let's bash down these care home doors and let's go and see the most isolated people and make them smile and just think about it, make it a community space. Do you think your legal training has actually served you quite well in the end? Because you talk about kind of repetitive stuff and not to demean the art of a transaction, but there's lots of lawyers who are having to do a lot of things again and again and again with huge focus on detail.

20:08Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure some of the people I work with at Linklaters might say I didn't. No, I'm sure. I mean, I have actually spoken to them and you're absolutely right. But yeah, I think going to a place like Oxford Uni and getting into Linklaters, you know, they're the top tier in their fields, has given me a lot of confidence that maybe in the moments of self-doubt that you know you've got something about you and you should trust your judgment and I think link letters did teach me to work hard because you know there were things that did have to get done at 2 3 a.m in the morning it was reasonably rare but it allowed me it get you know it said right roll up sleeves let's get this done because I know there is an end point and I know that if I reach that end point I'm hopefully going to have have secured more business I'm going to have affected more people's lives and and grown but have I done any of that perfectly no by no means and sometimes what gives me the relief is when you have two decisions to make you know it's a bit of a fork in the road you never actually know how the other decision would make what would happen what would transpire and how do you let go of that the counterfactual as it were how do you because again that's another skill that some people just don't have entrepreneurs need it you can't regret how do you not regret i think you just move you move on to the next challenge and you don't have the time brain capacity especially like i think sometimes on On a personal level, what was harder, especially pre-children, was to let the business go.

21:32And there are moments, and my wife is just the best woman in the world and the most patient woman in the world and just incredibly supportive. She allows me to kind of rant and rave and then not bring it home to the family. And it's very, very rare now. And actually, you know, people with young kids, my beautiful boys, Theo and Louis, are just such a joy. I know everyone is a proud parent out there but they really are genuinely emotionally so available that you know at the end of the day I don't know what would have happened with the other decision I've made the decision based on my own ability and my own confidence I'd like to think I'm a fair person I try to change the world so crack on and see what's next really Final chat with my guest there John Ramsey coming up and we've got some Jordan Rakai and Tom McFarnham for you too that's in just a moment don't go anywhere this is jazz shapers with elliot moss in partnership with mishkondorea it's business but it's personal john ramsey is with me just for a few more minutes he is the founder of social ability person by person changing the experience of of a human with dementia or of children with autism through all the clever things that they're doing i want to just switch for a moment to music just because we haven't talked about it but it's an important part plays a important part in your in your identity in your life trumpeter scholarship to school pianist as well what role has music played for you over the years i mean to be fair um i haven't mentioned my mum um but my mum was a huge inspiration in music for me because she uh loved it and still does and sings in her choir down in seven oaks but music whilst it initially was you know practice or do the dishes it became a source of relief for me growing up especially living at home with dad in long summer holidays I could turn to the piano and just you know play a tune whatever it might be or compose something actually composed a piece that was played at our wedding you know rather than say light a candle in memory of my dad it was the piano piece I'd composed for my GCSE it's a very moving moment and did he could he appreciate the music even as he's at dementia well I did I did play it at his day centre.

23:47He was at Bromley Mind. And that's where the name Approaching Storm came from. Because I went there, I'd composed it. I played, I did like a music concert for all the people at the day centre. And then some guy at the back, I said, what's this sound like? He went, Approaching Storm. And I was like, right, that's what it'll be called for my GCSE. And then, yeah, dad, definitely. And he was very proud of me going and listening to my concerts. There's a lot of classical stuff. And, you know, I quite enjoyed playing in our band. called shagwag at a name a name that didn't last for very long or make a dent yeah unsurprising really a little bit it was actually fun at the time yeah it was a band that the school um kept going and that was mega but then you know since then music has um i'm sure a lot of my friends will tell you i'm always the first to pick up a guitar or a piano and get everyone singing along especially in public houses uh and it's been um yeah it's been a great source of joy of connection whenever you go traveling being able to to uh play we were talking about brazil i remember playing a guitar in a in one of the sort of cable cars up and down one of the mountains in brazil and getting the whole cable car to sing along to some cheesy oasis song um and a form of relaxation that really takes you away i imagine from the hurly burly of running this business has it always been that in a way it sounds like it was it was kind of the the framework was set the blueprint was set when you were young because it did help you remove yourself.

25:11Yeah, and performing the trumpet especially, right? Because it's quite an intense instrument to play and performing that you can't make, you know, mistakes are heard. I remember playing The Last Post in the freezing cold in Cloisters at Winchester and, you know, acutely aware of every split note and every tremble. But yeah, I think obviously having kids, music took a slightly smaller part of my life, but recently, especially Theo, my oldest, is learning the piano, I'm now playing with them and I'm trying to create like little musical moments together. and it's just joyful and singing the songs and getting them to listen to music for the first time just different types of music classical jazz rock getting them to you know wear sunglasses and rave out as part of like our dinner parties when friends are over it's great because music and especially for people living with dementia it's such using music is such an important part of connecting with someone because that does not leave you that is your senses and you will see people singing along and enjoying it and yeah for me it's definitely a relaxing part and i've had the privilege of playing at friends weddings um and you know it allows you to in a small way play a part in a magical moment of their life um yeah and i've loved it i actually played um randomly in new orleans um when i was working i was volunteering on death row and um i needed the loo and so i stepped into this restaurant and there was a queue for the toilet and someone says does anyone know how to play the piano?

26:34And I was like, I probably had a hurricane or two, so I, a cocktail that is, and I sat down and started playing and, you know, 30, 45 minutes later, I had a glass full of dollars, a load of drinks, and I'd been invited to play back. And yeah, that was a magical time for me and it's such a connection. And, you know, even if you can't play the instrument, throw yourself into it, sing out of tune and enjoy it because it's just such an important part of life. which is sort of sing out of tune and enjoy it is a bit like running a business you just got to keep going and see what happens and on that note just very briefly where where in five years will social ability go if you could have wave a magic wand john what would be the sentence describing social abilities impact well i want to really double down on what we're doing um and keep inspiring and raising awareness uh we do a lot of dementia awareness workshops in the city where we come in and do sort of lunch and learns and and discuss what dementia is but i think um actually you know my big dream is life is being interrupted by screens that we're all aware of right the family home and the family hub and if you think about it back in the day there were board games and card games and now there are screens what if we could find something in between what if we could find a piece of technology that allows the family to reconnect around their living room table using interactive lights so that you could put a smile and really reconnect that family family moment for those who are lucky enough to live with parents and have that um just that little bit of happiness it grounds you and it will hopefully inspire people to do something different um yeah that's that's my dream um but also you know carry on growing in north america and helping all these um people living in care homes that we forget about yeah and give meaning to what happened to me really that's what i try and strive to do each day i think you are giving meaning to what happened to you john and some it's been brilliant to talk to you thank you um A little bit of happiness is always a good thing.

28:29Lots of happiness, even better. Not too much. In moderation. There is moderation in excess, apparently, but not too much is a good thing. Just before I let you disappear, what's your song choice and why have you chosen it? Well, following my time when I was in New Orleans, I heard Georgia On My Mind by the Oscar Peterson trio. And we played, well, someone sang Georgia On My Mind at our wedding, which was probably the happiest day of my life. And so that is my song of choice because it's just so stunning. The Oscar Peterson Trio with Georgia On My Mind, the song choice of my business shaper today, John Ramsey.

29:03He talked about agency. We all have it, but not all of us exercise it. He talked about wanting to be a fair person, and I think that's an absolutely laudable thing to want to be. He talked about in the context of the caring profession, it's not about what you can't do, it's about what you can do. And finally, of course, how wonderful to be able to pursue a business endeavour with massive social impact great stuff that's it from jazz shapers have a lovely weekend jazz shapers on jazz fm in partnership with mishkondorea it's business but it's personal we hope you enjoy that edition of jazz shapers you'll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive to find out more just search jazz shapers and itunes or your favorite podcast platform or head over to mishkon.com forward slash jazz shapers