Alex Depledge | The Future of the Treasury

0:00One of the most common challenges that any fast-growing business faces is raising capital. Well, there is some good news from Britain and Ireland's most active growth investor, BGF. Over the next five years, BGF plans to invest another£3 billion in growth stage businesses across all sectors and in early stage companies like Life Sciences and Deep Tech. It builds on the£4.5 billion that they've invested since 2011. BGF has backed over 600 companies across the UK's middle market, investing between£3 and£30 million. With tailored support in talent, international expansion and digital transformation.

0:42From Edinburgh to Exeter, from Belfast to Birmingham, BGF helps ambitious businesses create lasting impact both locally and beyond. As a founding member of the Invest in Women Task Force, BGF has committed at least 300 million to supporting more female powered businesses over the next five years. And it's more than just capital. BGF's scale platform connects CEOs and leaders to networking, commercial opportunity and exclusive events. Helping founders not just raise funds, but raise their ambitions. This episode is brought to you by BGF, the UK and Ireland's most active growth capital investor.

1:24You can learn more at www.bgf.co.uk. Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Today we're joined by Alex De Pledge for her third appearance on the show. But this is much more of a conversation because Alex is about to take a new role as Rachel Reeves' Entrepreneurship Advisor in the Treasury. It is the first time the Treasury has ever appointed an Entrepreneurship Advisor. so it will be interesting so this was much more of a conversation at the times it was almost like alex was interviewing me about my time in downing street and how to kind of help with it but i think it's a really innovative move uh from the treasury to go with this role and i'll be fascinated to see how it goes out and we'll definitely be getting alex on a fourth time when she's done it uh to have her reflections on it i hope you enjoy this episode it's brought to you by bgf make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests.

2:20This episode is brought to you by BGF. Alex, welcome back to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future for the third time. But you're going to be stepping back from entrepreneurship a little bit, right? Well, I mean, a little bit. I mean, I'm going to look at entrepreneurship, but just from a different angle, I guess. Yeah, but you're getting yeah but tell us what you're up to um well it is rather exciting and i can't i can't actually quite believe it's happened because i think to myself do they know that what they're letting themselves in for but um yes i'm going to um join the treasury next week uh to work for rachel weaves um i can hear the hissing in the background but i actually really like and respect rachel i've known her for a fair few years when she became shadow chancellor and like i've always look you've known me for a long time Jimmy like I backed Joe Swinson's campaign for liberal democrat leader um you know I've I've been on task forces under Theresa May in the Tory so I don't really have a political affiliation I tend to look at you know who is a smart politician doing clever things and um I think can make a real difference and I love Rachel's um she's not afraid to take an unpopular decision and stand behind it and I feel like from like you the last you know the dying days of the Tory for however many premierships it was that was really lacking that that willingness not to just stand up to the to the to the public or opposition but also to stand up your own party and I feel like that's really important so I'm gonna go and work for Rachel and I'm gonna look at um how we make sure that the UK stays competitive in terms of um attracting the brightest and best entrepreneurs but not only do they start but they stay and we scale businesses because that's the piece that we haven't quite cracked in this country.

4:08And if we lose that scaling talent, you know, the likes of Wave driverless cars and, you know, the likes of Clio or Wise or things like, you know, Revoluts kind of, exactly. We not only lose the ability to tax those people, so there are more tax receipts for public services, but we uh we lose the kind of figureheads that inspire others to get into entrepreneurship and and give it a go and and we lose that and most importantly we lose that knowledge of like how to scale a business and honestly it's pretty sparse on the ground here as it is so we can't afford to lose that that knowledge otherwise we have to keep importing it from the likes of america and places like that and we need to build that knowledge here so that they're the things i'm going to be trying to look at for the next budget and why do you think we are sort of struggling to keep scaling time like what's your sort of like diagnosis as somebody who's actually done it a couple of times um well i think it goes back to to this thing that we started with about kind of going back to basics like the the mushrooming of responsibilities um i think as as meant it's been you know people have found it really hard particularly when you layer on the last five years like i mean jimmy i find it i found it seriously difficult you know the pandemic the open closing of the economy working out how you responded to that then we came out of that and it was all you know it was like energy prices spiking ukraine war trust then we went into mortgage rates going through the roof then and materials going through the roof and then we thought whoa maybe that's over no and then we got donald trump and like you know it's just been like and then I think if you layer on you know an increase in your responsibility as a as a business owner founder entrepreneur with the volatility overlaid with it I think a lot of people are like peace out I'm done yeah genuinely like a lot I know a lot of people trying to sell up and just do something else and part of me has been a bit like should I just go get a job and that we can't afford that we cannot afford to lose our entrepreneurial chops because actually 50 % of our GDP is driven by small business.

6:14And I'm not talking about, I mean, I'm not focused on small business. I'll be focused on like high growth business. But, you know, everybody thinks when you talk about business, you're talking about Unilever, AstraZeneca, Persimmon, like all these big companies and you're not, that's not, we are a nation of shopkeepers. So there's that. I think also, and I'm probably going to get, you know, a little bit in trouble for saying this next thing, but you know big love to entrepreneurs but they can be whiny little buggers right well they can I mean and I've I've been so like guilty of this myself you know because they can be a vocal bunch as well as I remember yeah very I mean very very vocal and so you know my one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today about this kind of transition that I'm making and like going into number 10 is because like I would really like to reach out to the the kind of entrepreneurs out there that are quietly building these fast growing like meaningful businesses you know i really wish i'm going to pull my phone out in a minute and look for this stat but like that you know i think it's something like 0.6 percent of of the um sme market which is the entrepreneur high growth business market disproportionately contributes to gdp um and we can put that in the show notes because i can give you the exact quote from the scale-up institute that is exactly exactly the type of people that we need to stay and love and nurture because that is where the growth is going to come you know when everyone goes where's growth going to come we're sorting out the planning system yeah yeah you know that is so crucial we need to sort the planning system out build more houses because that is at the root you give me a problem faced in the uk today and i'll show you a house that has not been built to solve it right genuinely and I know I'm in that sector but if but aside from that like where what are the businesses of the future what are the jobs of the future and that's where they are in that 0.6 percent so if there are any of those entrepreneurs that are quietly building in Bristol or York or London not the usual suspects I'd love to hear from them not to hear about your problems but to hear what ideas you've got for solving them because you know we can all moan but it's much harder to to solve.

8:18So I think that is one of the sort of like biggest things I would say about kind of working in government is that ability to try and understand what is happening out in the country because often the civil service and i'm not just going to bash the civil service but if you ask them to draft up a list of potential attendees it's all london yeah it's london but it's also it's all the people with big public affairs budgets etc you know it's not like the companies that are out there like we've had them on the show and whatever but like you know the guys that do the drones new year's eve drone show based in leeds right 50 people like an amazing kind of creative company you know probably never been invited to do any kind of like government work but you as an entrepreneur can know about those people and kind of like bring them in i think that would be one of the things that you're able to kind of bring it's just like you know different and new ideas because government you know it is an institution and all the departments are institutionalized to a degree as well and you just have to sort of like you know inject new ideas and just try and kind of like expand people's like thinking and the way that they're approaching things yeah and basically raise what kind of elevate their stories up or you know there's great um i gotta say this wrong um phonics no i've got that wrong in southampton oh it's the next generation of like chips done by light not electricity i know what they do i just can't say the name of it but you know there's a big cluster down in Southampton that's like really booming and you've got loads of stuff going on in Newcastle and obviously I'm going to champion Yorkshire because that's where I'm from and so it's bringing surfacing that stuff and and making those people feel heard and then I think the final thing that um is kind of disincentivizing entrepreneurs along with the kind of fatigue and um the fact they like to moan is that you know So I think this government, and Rachel would admit this, they haven't been very good at showing them any love.

10:13Like in all of the speeches, I'll be damned if I've heard the word entrepreneur. They're not small business owners. And I think it's a bit like a small to medium enterprise business. If it was a car, it's a bit more like a Vauxhall or a Ford. And then you've sort of got your high-end Land Rover for your big corporates. Well, an entrepreneur's business is more like a McLaren. it's just built differently and i think getting that knowledge inside um government and and showing uh trying to design some some decent policies and advising on some decent ideas that really encourage entrepreneurs to to build here um it's not a bad thing yeah no i i agree with that i do think this government to sort of stick up for them have been well i'm not attacking them no no no but like they've done but some of the love stuff like they've done like they've done lots of like you know number 10 receptions and yeah they've done for london tech week like they'd use checkers and whatever like and that's what i'm saying but that's the beginning of it i mean yeah exactly yeah i agree exactly it's quite like it's it's quite sort of yes it's important but it's quite surface level sort of stuff so but i think in all the big set pieces like so the budget um you know so prior to this the growth speech earlier on the budget there's been there hasn't been very much of that and i think i think that rachel and kian know that and they're addressing it you like you know k did his big set piece at checkers and and rachel um you know tech came out of the spending review brilliantly it was like what was it two billion going into aria we got extra money committed into ai for the rollout of it you know there's some really good stuff in there and like the r &d budget was is high so it's there it's and i guess i'm part of this sort of like realization that you know this is a part of the economy that we need to a nurture yeah and i also think like one of the things like you know me i'm massive advocate of getting entrepreneurs business leaders into government you know there are quite a few sort of knocking around because you've got poppy gustavsson you've got james timpson okay not doing kind of business facing role but yeah still in there kind of like you've got tom audiola chair of innovate uk and you've got matthew clifford as well doing all the number 10 yeah number 10 now you as well slightly we're not having any entrepreneurs left at this I think, you know, it's always really funny because everyone said to me when I joined the board of Persimmon that it'd frustrate the hell out of me and haven't.

12:33I've loved it. And everyone's saying that to me about being in the Treasury. And, you know, maybe I'm sure it will be frustrating, but I just love like I love learning new things and I'm really curious about that stuff. So I think it's going to be a really good challenge and I'm properly excited to kind of crack on with it. But yeah, there is more and more of us circling that patch. and I think that's a great thing for the UK and it's a great thing for the Labour government to embrace that. What are you most nervous about? Do you know, this is actually what I wanted to talk to you about, actually.

13:06Because I obviously spoke to Matt and was like, right, Matt, give me the skinny. What, how should I be, you know? And especially because I'm quite a big personality, I was like, do I need to be less Alex? And he was like, nah, you should really be Alex. So I'd love to know from you, like like kind of what are the watch outs and and maybe on a on a slightly different note like what surprised you um what surprised me so i remember a very kind of significant conversation i had with a friend after about a month who said is there a lot of cleverest person in the room syndrome yeah 10 downing street and i was like no there's a lot of kind of ass covering syndrome in terms of like there's just i'll let me i'll show you how clever i am by finding a problem of why we shouldn't do that yeah it just goes on and on and it's like we will never ever get anything done guys if we just sit here and list all the reasons why we shouldn't do stuff because we can all do that like and that was a real sort of thing that i've found is that it government by its very definition is very un-risk-averse and um sorry it's very risk-averse yeah and and so that's that is a real that was far more ingrained than i'd kind of realized like the incentive is not to do stuff generally and that is hard the other sort of like big thing is everything requires kind of building a form of coalition uh to get done like very very little happens just because a spad says so whatever i know you're not technically going to be spad but there's a a sort of element of the sort of the stereotype is of the all-powerful spad who sort of whispers in the minister or chancellors here that they must do this that and the next and it's like it's not because it's you've got to get it through the civil service you've got to get it agreed and so on and a lot of the so that that's a big thing is like you need to kind of like get champions and people kind of around you that are willing to sort of back and agree it and understand basically understand the levers of how stuff actually kind of works so this is what bothers me yeah because i'm not exactly subtle no and but you do you also need that a bit as well right like you need the i'm kind of like speaking with the authority of the pm chancellor whatever one system so you do need that and that's where i think it'd be great right is like you do need to be clear and direct about like what needs to happen because as i say the incentive is that it doesn't so if people don't think it happens i remember one of the things that sort of various secretaries of state say is like you know in business at the end of a meeting you will agree that we're going to do these three things and like you'll come back to it in a month and they'll have been done or two and a half would have been done etc yeah in government you sort of come back and like you know one of the three might have happened etc like you know sort of halfway there so it's a real like it's a kind of thing but Blair and Haig have said it as well right in one of politics's most random kind of like double acts now but it's sat there Blair arguably is the most sort of like powerful premier in this century really in some ways and just stuff doesn't happen right like and his whole his whole thing his book is definitely worth reading like on leadership it's like I know I listened to your episode with him I've been doing a lot more I'm also reading what's the journalist guy you just released why how must Minster works and Dwight doesn't oh yeah what was his name Ian Dunst yeah well that's a real eye opener I mean how sensationalized it is I don't know but But like, you know, I am a bit scared because I'm going from an organization where like I sit at the top and most people, I'd like to think that most of my team do what I ask them to do with relative frequency.

16:48But, you know, I do get some pushback. But, you know, things work quite dynamically. And the thing that I've heard over and over again from people is to summarize is it's a bit like, you know, the kind of government engine needs to be reliably like large and move forward and be really reliable. So when you get something like the pandemic or a crisis, it kicks into gear and it kind of has a life of its own almost. But if you're in a time where you want to reform or be a bit more dynamic or like turn the ship, it takes a disproportionate amount of effort to get that momentum. So does that chime with your experience?

17:24Yeah, definitely. And like when stuff goes wrong, when there's a focus from the top of government, right? Like the passport office a couple of years ago was a classic one. And it was an amazing result. and people started turning around and sort of like getting on it so i think that's um true so sort of having that focus kind of makes a real difference and kind of knowing what you want to do and i think a lot gets chucked at government now as well so there's a real kind of like there can be a real danger of busyness and not of kind of focus and i think that's kind of like i think that the government have struggled a bit with that in their first year as i think any government does right in terms of like you know they've just been sort of slightly overwhelmed by everything that's happened and partly because you know we've got our friend across the Atlantic as well who's kind of like you know just kind of makes a lot of sound um which ends up getting kind of focused on and that'll be one of the things that you you sort of have to do is try and sort of yeah you've got to sort of look ahead and be like where do we want to be in six 12 months time as well and also the interesting thing that I would say about the treasury compared to the role-rides at number 10 is that it is much more kind of focused around big fiscal events so like that that in a way is a good thing because number 10 often ends up being buffeted by you know what donald trump's tweet at that morning or whatever so it's reactionary whereas number 10 is very reactionary whereas number 11 is much more kind of like planning it and so on um did you did you interact much with the treasury when you were in number 10 because i'm trying to think you were you were theresa mayer who was the chancellor philip haman yeah i mean that's Definitely having like cross kind of relationships in departments sort of really matters.

19:02And so on. I need to get my charm offensive on. Yes. I mean, you need a bit of charm and go. But I think that, you know, the thing about Treasury Number 10 is it obviously kind of like attracts the brightest and the best in the civil service, of which there are great people there. And, yeah, they will enjoy working with somebody who is kind of like driven and direct a lot of them. Well, it must have been announced internally because I got a message from a handful in the Treasury that I didn't think. Oh, we're so excited. And I was like, oh, God, thank God. Because I just, you know, you don't want that inward groan like, oh, God, we've got enough to deal with this bloody entrepreneur who's going to think she's great.

19:38Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Which is, I don't think I'm like that, but, you know, you just don't. It's nice that they're excited about it. What title are they giving you? Yeah, that's a real, look, honestly, I don't know. I don't know what days I'm doing. In some ways, it doesn't matter, by the way. What title would they give me? Like, what sort of? I don't know but you're not you you're not political right you're not as bad no I'm not I'm a DMA whatever that is direct ministerial appointment so what do I get a title or am I just like a bod I think you're just a bod but in a way it doesn't matter it's funny right I was listening yesterday to uh Evan uh Davis bottom line and he got a show on what happens when people everyone knows their pay etc got these interesting entrepreneurs on who like this one guy like people decided their own pay i mean i've heard of like unlimited annual leave but people decided their own pay anyway but it was interesting but it made me think back to number 10 because all of our pay was disclosed right and it got released once a year uh which was interesting in office dynamics but actually it didn't really make that much difference like the currency was much more kind of like does the pm listen to you do you get face time yeah and where is your desk?

20:47Like, those were the things that kind of like... Isn't that nuts? Yeah, yeah. But I've heard that over and over again. It's like, you know, do you have the ear of the chancellor? How close do you sit with her? I'm like, whoa. Okay, well, I'm next to her, so that should be good, right? But it's also because people aren't there for the money, right? I remember when a senior banker came in to work with us who'd spent his entire life kind of like, you know, everything about numbers, salary, bonus, that was like everything. And he was like, it's fascinating being in a workplace where you've just taken all that out because you wouldn't want an extra 15 grand and to have less sway with the PM or Chancellor.

21:22What's the point? What's the point, right? No, no. So all of that kind of dynamics are really interesting. People are there for a purpose and for public service and all that stuff. A lot of it's kind of like cliche. No, but look, I completely agree. People ask me, why am I even interested in doing this? Look, I think it'd be fascinating and enlightening and you get to see the inner workings of government. And, you know, I feel really, really, like, grateful for that and very lucky. But there's a huge part of me, and there always has been a huge part of me, that I just, you know, I'm an entrepreneur because I like to solve problems.

21:58And actually, it's a bit like what drives people into public service is a desire to make it better, you know? Sometimes I'm now asked about whether I enjoy being an entrepreneur, right? And one of the things that I reflect on is that as an entrepreneur, I feel more in control of my day and yes of what happens that's one of the big things now you're in control of the inputs right it's like how many like sales emails have we sent today like that is on me like if I'm gonna work another 20 minutes at night to send another five emails I can do that if I want to do that I think one of the things in government is that you are just like buffeted by like other things and other agendas etc that's a real like challenge you're thrown off course did Did you, did you, so this is a bit of a like, I feel like, I feel like a Gen Z coming for a job interview now.

22:46But with this question I'm about to answer, ask you. Did you find it hard to leave work at the end of the day? Or did you? Yes. Oh, God, that's going to be, that's going to be difficult for me. Because I've always, I've always got in really early and always left early. Because of the kids. Yeah. It's. I bet you not, I bet you basically just have to turn up to me. If you're told to go to a meeting, you just have to go, right? Ah, well. that's quite a big learning on that go on there was a phrase that was used quite a lot which is that you'll never be invited to a meeting and you'll never be kicked out of one either oh so you just have to go to the meetings you want to be at yeah and find out the meetings are happening right so like look at this that is a good tidbit this is a big thing that people aren't sitting there necessarily extensively thinking about the cast list of meetings because they're busy and you know they'll be like they'll be the key people and whatever they want in there but there's a huge amount of that um of like finding out the meetings that are going on which meetings matter like and so on so that is a thing and that that changes like i can't give much advice on it because that changes a lot from every kind of downing street operation oh god right okay but yeah that's that's quite a big thing i remember going into a meeting and sitting down at the table and then realizing that i should not be in that meeting and i was like because it was way above me but it was i was like i couldn't i also then couldn't leave because it would look really awkward and sus as well so it was like but no one's sitting there thinking well why is jimmy here really yeah it's just like this is this is the oddest thing i've ever heard i know but it's but i think it's it does sum up like quite a lot you the entrepreneurial drive of right to get going get stuff and make stuff happen is quite good like that's a good kind of like crossover transferable skill that you're about to use i think but what would you yeah when you're back for your kind of like fourth edition if we're still going by then probably the bigger danger is whether we can still keep the keep the lights on this you're at this point in time if you have me on again it'll be like an odd the audience will just like abandon you like not this woman again why are you here this time i guess because i'm in a bit of a transition and like in that transition i've been thinking a lot maybe more broadly than i would normally be allowed to and i feel like i think we're in grave danger of making decisions that don't won't make sense long term and actually will hurt us and so look just to give you an example of that i totally understand people have got kids that you know they they're bookending the day with like the mentalness of the nursery run i know that that's something you probably did it's certainly something i did and so actually there's a great appeal for that flexibility and there's loads of arguments you can make for it but fundamentally right that it's not about flexibility at work it's actually about the fact that people cannot afford to live near where they work and child care is so expensive so instead of taking those two problems of like expensive child care and you know housing stock not being in the right place we don't do that we go out and legislate that like all employers have got to be flexible working and it's like it's they've diagnosed the problem incorrectly so of course the solution's wrong yeah and we're we keep doing this over and over again and the ramifications of that are a massive dislocation in society a massive amount of isolate you know people feeling isolated you know a rising male suicide to unprecedented levels you know are you i mean jules is really funny my co-founder because she actually noticed when she was on her train you know what's the overground now they've made all these fancy names for it but you know the orange line and she takes that back to forest hill and one day she noticed that like literally everybody was on their phone in a in place of like we used to read the paper or maybe you'd have a chat with her and so she now won't go on a phone for the entire journey but you see it everywhere like people are glued to these devices and i think we're in grave danger of um creating a society that when we stand back and look at it were not very proud of it and that has meant that um the normal fail safes that catch someone are not there anymore so for example old lady lives on a street you know back in the day we did it you know you'd go around to see eileen and make sure she was all right because her you know her son's lived further away that stuff is not happening so there's more elderly people in the home being lonely and i just think we're we stopped reminding ourselves what it means to be human yeah because of these decisions that we keep taking because for the wrong reasons um that is very very deep right like sorry is that too deep for jimmy's jobs of the future no no but i just like i i mean i i think the loneliness thing is true right like you've in a way you've never felt more connected like yeah because you can be in touch with anyone send them a whatsapp whatever all that type of thing but actually that sort of like deep level of connection isn't there and I totally sort of I can see why you're why you're saying that but how do you think the impact of that has been on business well I mean so you know to go to my second rant of the day and what we have five minutes in about the office so on along this this idea of like being back to basics I just think that gradually and it is gradual like if you go back 15 years when I started this um it certainly wasn't this way so it's been a gradual increase in what we ask businesses to be responsible for like in accenture days we'd call that scope creep you know like like we and actually if you think about what an employer is there to do an employer is there to offer a safe environment hopefully enjoyable work um to be you know treated with respect and you get a wage for that and in return you turn up you'd be a half you know you'd be a decent human being show compassion and kindness and do a good job that's ultimately like the employee employer contract but now i mean christ on a bike i'm like uh people's mental health therapist um their career counselor sometimes i feel like their bloody parent um and you know and the ask has been growing and growing and employers have bought into it and we've gone oh yeah like you know a salary and a pension is not enough.

29:15We now need private healthcare and we need support for parents and their childcare and we need to offer career progression and career advice and then we need a mental health service to go with it and we need to make sure we invite... And I'm not saying all of these are wrong in isolation. We need to be inclusive and diverse and we need to care about the environment and none of this is bad stuff. But you have to ask yourself, why why is it that employers are being asked to do that stuff and the simple reason is because the family unit and the state is failing and so instead employers are there taking on that burden and i don't know about you but i'm fucking exhausted yeah i mean i'm i'm tired right but i i mean i think it's my views on a lot of this stuff have definitely changed since actually running a business about it and so on like you look at it a lot less in theory and more in practice what's changed for you um i would say i've just become a lot more kind of like commercial in the sense of what stuff costs money yeah like basically and that's it and you know you get asked to do i think running is running a podcast and whatever people often ask you to kind of like come and host events etc and do all this type of thing and it's like yeah we're not a charity right like we're gonna make all this kind of like work and so on and sort of people there's a lot of assuming that whereas now we've become a lot more kind of like commercial because you just have to be but then that's partly because i think as you're saying lots of the costs of running a business have like risen over the last 15 years because you're expected to do more because you're expected to provide more etc and it's kind of like a real challenge you see it like you know i've talked about there's lots on linkedin right you've got national minimum wage you've got the nix increase um you know all the employment right stuff like it's a lot for business to kind of swallow within the space of it a year like any one of the three would be a big thing asking them to all three at once you know national minimum wage now 12.52 right a few times that by seven and a half it's a average working hour day by five the number of days in a week by 12 you're basically at 25 000 pounds and then plus then the cost for the employer right you're basically at 30 grand that is a lot for an employer to kind of pay for somebody at an at the very bottom right and i think that's that is one of the challenges now and i think we're about to see a huge crisis in the entry-level workplace with everything that's happening with chat gpt yeah i think and also i feel really sorry for those that are trying to enter the job market at the moment because of course they had some of the best years of their life completely ruined by the pandemic as well so I feel like it's just like real whammy happening on that end of the the kind of job market but it's partly because all these costs and things are coming in right and I'm I'm not sort of like you know I'm not being political and sort of saying you know I totally see why the government's done all three of those things but it's just a lot right and I think you make a really good point because and I have to be really careful now not not because of what I say but I'm in danger of sounding very old when I make this next statement which is you know when I was growing up um you know I think I got about three pound eleven in my first job and like obviously that would have gone up too but I also went and did unpaid internships to get experience and there was never an expectation they were going to be paid and you know we do look we do it at resi and and people can come in and they can do an internship but we do it for a very short amount of time and we give them you know pocket money and transport and the reason for that is otherwise it's just a charity because i'm basically taking in a person and it's disrupting the normal workflow and the work day for two or three people while they look after the intern and try and impart some useful knowledge but then then you're paying them like minimum wage yeah it doesn't make any sense and so what we're actually doing is and sorry on the other thing and i'll build this picture and And then less and less people, and I really want to do a study on this.

33:19When I was on Sadiq's board, it was one of the things I was really keen to do. And that was like back in 2020, just right before the pandemic hit. I wanted to do a study on Saturday working, because like, unless you leave and go to some of the kind of really smaller villages, you don't really see kids of like 15, 16 doing Saturday jobs, right? And you know, we can't find any people to work in hospitality, but you know, no one's working Saturday jobs. So you've got declining Saturday jobs. You've got to pay every intern or every, you know, work experience type person because it just in case, you know, the small amount of people exploit them.

33:54Then you layer on the fact that to hire an entry level role is now like really quite expensive for someone who's basically got no working skills really at that point. And you're going to invest in them. And then on top of that, you've got ChatGPT coming in. And like, I'll be really honest with you. We've got no entry level roles, right? We've had to create a whole new program called Resi Grow because I'm, I guess, conscious enough that I feel like we need to give back because I'm worried about the onslaught of LLM. But how are these people ever going to learn any relevant skills for the workforce and get to a senior level?

34:31And then layer on the fact that people are not bringing anyone into an office, so they're going to have to do all of this in their own room. I just think we are storing up like a youth quake. Can I use that word? I don't think it's relevant to that. coin now i mean exactly and and no one seems to be talking about this and it's winding me up because like we can't keep making these decisions in isolation and not thinking about the system and that's what i think i'm really trying to say is like we need a like systems level thinking to understand how this all fits together and the and the second and third order impacts that we are that we are deciding now without thinking them through yeah no i think it's true i think the whole like what are the skills that we're going to need like in five ten years time are yeah I think it's really difficult to know I think it's really difficult to know how you acquire those skills um but yeah somebody should do a podcast about it someone should do a podcast about it and just to be a little bit sort of like I guess um political for a second you know obviously we had the spending review a couple of days ago and um I think you know the mainstream media which I mean I listen to the mainstream media I like a lot of them so that this is not you know saying that they're bad people but the line very much was you know there are real term cuts across all of these departments like education like the police and things like that and I'm like yeah but actually there's two things that occur to me there the first is like as an entrepreneur the first thing that you learn when running a business is focus you can't be everything to everybody you can't do everything all at once so pick the two or three things that you think fundamentally matter and focus on them they did that yeah and the second thing is like why i know you know someone was like he higher education is in crisis and i was like well yeah it is because it's relied on international students but that's not why it's going to be in crisis tomorrow it's going to be in crisis tomorrow because how many people are going to need to go and get a degree and we expanded it massively under the last labor government we thought that that was the hallmark of a progressive society that we sent all these kids to university but we didn't think about the quality we didn't think about manual labour and manual skills and so actually like like all creative destruction just like you know in industries that get overtaken by new upcoming upstarts he's going to go through a revolution revolution and it will be painful and i'm glad we're not pouring more money into it because actually we need to be think about what is fit for purpose for the next 20 to 25 years and what people are going there for and how long are they going for i think that's the other thing with undergrad degrees right like it's a lot three years is a long time like particularly in the kind of like modern world where everything's kind of moving um so fast but what would you like to say that you've achieved like what's going to be what what are you kind of you know kpis and what yeah no look i think that's a really a really good question and it's actually something i thought about before i even said yeah let's let's do this um i think there are some like really big areas for entrepreneurs that they really care about and i know that they do because i've been through the last 10 years of white papers from all the think tanks and all the government task force where we talk about scaling up and you know and it's really around access to finance r d you know option schemes like it's those sorts of things and so what i've done is i've kind of highlighted to myself three key areas that i want to go in and kind of champion and drive so my kpi and i can't really talk about it here no no but but my kpi is i get two out of the three because i feel like if i can walk away in six months and i'm like i've helped to deliver these two policies or these three policies or whatever and i've had you know um a good impact internally in in helping them understand business and entrepreneurship and bring the right people in but equally then reflect out that the treasury cares and you know get rachel involved in the right things i think i'll have done a good job and i'd be really chuffed with that what i'm not going to do is mill around do you know i mean i didn't want to just kind of go in and be sort of like milling around in meetings and not really be able to point to something that i've done because that would feel really alien for me i know i talk a lot obviously as you're experiencing on this podcast but you need to be some tangibles out of it well yeah but government a lot of government is talked like that's how stuff kind of happens you know talk and writing do you know did i ever tell you that when I first started out in entrepreneurship I had to learn how to make small talk because I'm that well I'm because I'm that sort of person that like I will just walk into a meeting and get straight down to business and the meeting will probably take half the time of a normal meeting because it's just like right what we hit what's the problem what's the solution who's doing what when they're doing it by meeting done and I realized pretty quickly that rubs people up the wrong way so then I had to start then I started learning like what football teams people you know and i go in and i have on a piece of paper james arsenal i just be like oh so arsenal played of the week i need it and now it's second nature me i can do it but that my de facto mode of operation is to be like bam bam bam bam bam like a machine gun so well that's fine because you can go back to your old skill with that because there isn't small talk in government like they're really like it doesn't you know i mean look i'm working with trees mate right but like there wasn't you know we didn't all sit around a monday a meeting and chit chat about weekends right like you're kind of like straight into it good like so you're quite sort of like if you enjoy Jimmy's jobs of the future and you're interested in entrepreneurship and growth journeys and what it really takes to scale a business be sure to check out BGF's good growth podcast it goes behind the scenes with some of the most inspiring CEOs and founders across the UK and Ireland who give practical tips on how to scale a business.

40:14It's the stuff you can't find out from Google. Hosted by BGF and me, Good Growth shares real stories from navigating rapid growth to building purpose-led companies and staying resilient along the way. Guests include leaders like Will Butler-Adams, CEO of Brompton Bikes, who turned a niche British brand into a global urban mobility movement and Claire Roberts the CEO of Kids Planet who grew a family-run nursery into one of the UK's largest child care providers while staying true to her mission. You'll also hear voices like Bruce Daisley the author and workplace culture expert formerly VP at Twitter sharing powerful insights on leadership well-being and high-performing teams.

40:59Listen via the links below or check out bgf.co.uk forward slash good growth podcast. Yeah, are there any other bits of advice that I can, or anything else that you're kind of like, what are you most, what are you kind of most excited about? Oh my God. Because it is exciting. Because that's why you asked about leaving the office early and stuff. It's like, it's just exciting. Yeah, you don't want to go. You don't want to go. I was there when I didn't have kids. and also you're making a very conscious decision about going in and so on. Like for me, it was like a quantum leap opportunity in my career.

41:36Yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah. Remember, because... You can't bring this up again. I'm going to bring it up for the third time. Oh my God. Because we've got new people working with us now. If Alex declined me for a job like a month before, like I went in before Theresa May offered me one. But clearly that was serendipity. You know, that was meant to happen because you were meant to go work for Theresa May and then you were meant to use that as a springboard to create a really good podcast. And here we are now. But I mean, I think because I'm, because it's time box, which I'm really glad about, you know, it's six months and then kind of that's it.

42:10I feel like I probably will go in and sort of like do way more days and hours than I probably mean to. How time box is it? What is it? It's up to the budget. Right, okay. Yeah, so like what's that? Five, six months, something like that. Oh yeah, it's not long. I mean, it's not at all. I know. I mean, that's good. That is both good and bad. But I think that's why there's more trepidation and apprehension that you're hearing from me than excitement. Because if it was like you're going in for two years, you know, I could spend three months figuring out the lay of the land, who's who. I'm not. I'm like day one, like ground zero, day one.

42:45What am I doing and how am I going to get it done? Who are the key players? And that's why I'm, you know, talking to various people and making sure I know what's going on. Because I just do not want to not be useful or valuable. because I think this is the first time the Treasury has ever taken an entrepreneur into it. Like that is quite, that's quite a signal, right? That is quite a statement. I mean, you're almost an entrepreneur in residence in the Treasury. I guess so, yeah. And I, you know, I, you know, I leveled at Rachel, like you need more businesses around the table. You need more business experience.

43:12And she responded. She responded to that, you know, a few months later, like come join me. And I think it's the other thing that annoys me slightly about entrepreneurs and it annoys Matt Clifford as well. So we were talking about this yesterday, which is, you know, everybody moans about government like everybody moans about government don't they um so but no one puts the hat in the ring no one goes well hang on a minute you know i'll try and help and that's what i genuinely want to do i would love to be able to try to help the uk get back on its feet um i really feel that this is and i you know i'm hugely proud of the fact that i'm british and i really feel like this country's got a lot to offer and we've just lost our way a little bit We need to do lots of things.

43:53And I think, and I talked about this on Question Time a couple of weeks ago, I talked about the collective pain because it really annoys me every time I open the paper or I listen to a talk radio show or look at the comments of anything because it's always people bleating and moaning like, but what about, but what about, but what about? If you're a police, you want more money. If you're a nurse or a doctor, you want more money. If you're a school, you want more money. We want more money for the railways and for the roads and we want more money for, you know, everybody wants more money. And when they do it, everyone puts their hand up and starts moaning about the fact they're not getting the money.

44:27And it's like, where's the money coming from? Right? And so when Rachel put national insurance up for contributions for employers, I didn't like it, Jimmy. But did I understand it? Of course it did. So I agree with that. I do think there could be a bit... I do think the Labour government could have levelled with people a little bit more about what's going to happen. I do think that's a problem with politics and government at the moment is that we've got some really systemic problems. One of the things I've learned about this podcast, I joke sometimes, is that no one knows what's going to happen in the future.

45:01But the only thing you can predict is demographics. Demographics is just simply not in our favour. And I just feel that sometimes we just need to be a bit more open and honest about these hard choices. But I also totally agree with you about like government is about people that show up right but can i too but can i come back on two things because i agree with you and what you just said about like um we have to have honest conversations but i actually think the honest conversation that the british public needs to have is with itself because the problem is it's not politicians not wanting to be honest it's the british public not wanting to listen and that's the reason nigel farage is so popular because ultimately you know i can tell you tomorrow that if you want to have exemplary levels of health care and public services then your taxes are going to be 70 percent yeah but the public don't want to listen to that they want to go to nigel who's going to tell them that he's going to give tax breaks to married people and he's going to put more money in their pocket and they're going to have an amazing nhs and and and and it's just simply not true so you've got to ask yourself is it politicians not willing to be honest or is it actually the british public that's not willing to have an honest conversation and listen listen i mean yeah look i i think it's I was struck by the spending review the other day that now basically four in every ten pounds a government spends goes to the NHS, right?

46:20Like, it's just a, it's a huge amount and I just think we need to, there needs to be a question about, like, what government is actually for and what, like, we want it to do. But again, I go back to basics. Like, is it, I just, I don't, you know, I'm naturally a small state person. I think that personal accountability has been lost along the way. Yes, yeah, I agree. Massively. Just to give you a relevant example in my arena so I don't go into the abyss and really end up getting cancelled. But I have staff that sit in front of me and they say, can we talk about career progression? I'm like, of course we can.

46:54And they say, what are you going to do for my career? And I'm like, are you actually having a laugh right now? If you come to me with your career ideas and plans and how you'd like to see progress, I'll see what I can make happen. But I am not responsible for your career. well that is a neat segue to uh something else i wanted to talk to you about i feel like i'm about to get ambushed yeah a little bit um so uh earlier i'm doing this with every guest at the moment but we haven't published an episode where i've done it please don't make me be the first no no you i did it with simon squib actually um so i uh asked chat gpt to take everything it knows about Alex to pledge oh dear god and predicts the next 30 years of your career oh man am I alive in 30 years well yeah I mean it does go with that so 20 25 to 20 25 to 2030 the portfolio power phase joins three to five boards mostly footsie 250s trying to be modernized launches a business advisory group helping people future proof their cultures uh starts investing in female-led startups uh either solo or via angel syndicate uh publishes a book think part memoir part manifesto working title no more nice girls what work looks like when women build it Hi.

48:21Mate, I love this person. This is pretty good. 2030 to 2040, the disruptor in residence era. Returns to the building, but not as a founder. Likely becomes exec chair or interim CEO of a mission-driven company that's floundering under traditional leadership. Moves into a public policy role. So you've got that wrong, chat GPT. Either formally House of Lords crossbench or mayoral economic advisor or informally public working groups, etc. co-founders think tank or institute focused on the intersection of work tech and care wins a major honor obe or cbe for services to entrepreneurship or equality i've got one up on my mb but i'd like a dame hood please chat says well no it says post about it saying thanks i guess but let's fix child care first oh my god i think it's quite true 2040 to 2055 the national treasure years I've been elevated chairs the board of a major national institution British Business Bank, BBC Ofcom, hosts an edgy but late night radio show or podcast for women over 50, mentors a ridiculous number of young founders especially those who remind her of herself bold, impatient, underestimated possibly takes a swing at an elected office, not because she wants to but because nobody else is cutting through which is basically just what he said.

49:47Female nige. Exactly. Narrative arc. She's now the person who gets quoted in obituaries of other great women, but she's still making trouble. She's still writing punchy op-eds and she's still allergic to fluff. Mate, if a fifth of that comes true, I'd be well chuffed. I know. Well, I thought it was pretty good. That is pretty good. Can you send me that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know why? Because I'm going to keep that and then we can come back every decade. What's true? To the years. I've never done this before, but I sort of said if a movie was made or a Netflix movie was made Alex Deplose in the movie who would play her?

50:24Who would you like to play you actually? Oh my god, so do you know that like Jules calls me Hilary DeVay The old dragon? Yeah, can you believe? She's meant to love me and all she does is rinse it out of me and if it's not Hilary she's someone else that's like basically smokes 40 fags a day and sounds like a trucker so look Natalie Portman to me is the most beautiful woman in the world but obviously that's not me so who would it be I don't know someone like Susan Saran you know the one what's her name oh my god I don't know tell me who is well they came with three Vicky McClure oh mate banging which I thought was pretty that is good I like Vicky McClure hang on what's the rationale it gives as well why brings grounded toughness and credibility would totally sell the scenes where alex challenges investors or grills male execs on diversity vibe startup founder meets undercover cop energy mate love it uh the other one daisy may cooper the one who gets naked in um is she the one in um no she's a funny blonde one she was on that comedy thing i'll look her up okay she's pretty she sounds a bit too pretty for me no um I actually thought it was quite good okay Kate Winslet no mate this is the can I come on again this is so good I'm going out I can't get my head out the door on this right Jimmy that's a nice touch so that yeah yeah right so we're doing that with people at the moment Alex thanks so much for coming on Jimmy's Jobs of the Future

52:10Thank you.